NDP broke and busted 2

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Sun, 2009-06-14 19:57

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

NDP broke and busted 2

um cueball most ppl are in fact not makin over 10. Mayb ur ways they are around here? most ppl end up making not even 9 because the employment agency takes 2 an hour off for finding u the temp job which has no benefits to begin with. 8-10 b4 tax depending on the job with no benefits. Or ur on the corner choppin dank or roccs. Basically it.

U cant raise a family on minimum wage why the fucc u think most of us are locced in a cage - Immortal Tech

trus that cueball are u saying to fidel tho that the NDP saying to raise the minimum wage to 10 or more is bad? it aint good but it better then the one b4 n progress is progress dont mean ima be screamin NDP NDP anytime soon but if they doin something better then b4 u have to give that to em mcguilty sure aint doin shit

on a real tip they barely making the minimum wage better after taking into account inflation n higher costs. Cuz shit like gas n food is still going up. U wanna know how shit aint working? Niggas sellin roccs are making more money then ever thats how u know shit is worse more fiends = more broken dreams. That's how I know even without lookin into shit which I do and will continue to do that shit is broken and the "higher" minimum wage aint worth shit tho.

edit- But like I said I aint one to u know get down on sum1 who trying to make shit better no matter how insignificant so u know more is more even it comparitively it aint much I will get pissed however if they try to make it seem bigger then it really is which unless they already I are I think they will

Sun, 2009-06-14 20:21

Fidel

Well it's true that many employers pay $10 and $11 dollars an hour and more just to attract and keep good workers. But there are over a million adult workers in Ontario, for instance, who are not earning $10 dollars an hour. They earn anywhere less than $10 bucks an hour, like home care and child care workers.

Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla was paying two Filippina nannies something like $3.70 an hour averaging 14 hour days. Too many new Canadians are taken advantage of by unethical employers. There has to be a minimum wage law that makes it illegal to pay slave wages, and $8.75 an hour is not a living wage either.

A report from last November said there over 345,000 children living anywhere below poverty line(LICO) in Ontario, and that 40% of low income families have at least one parent who works full-time. And the average low income family is living $7100 dollars below low income cutoff.

Anti-poverty activists say raising minimum wage is one step that needs to be taken by governments. There are other methods, like child tax credits, and funding public services like child care and affordable housing. Anti-povery groups say all of those approaches are necessary not any one in particular.

Sun, 2009-06-14 20:42

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Most farm workers are for a fact not given minimum wage the argument bein that they get it in cash but at the same time no benefits or nothing if u get injured cuz u cant prove u worked their. And I know bare kids who work b4 their 14 n they get paid like 4 or 5 an hour. And like I said I dont know east end ways my side most factory workers may get paid 10 or 11 if they luccy but like I said the agency takes a cut. A lot aint even wit seniority my boiz momz been working at the same place 8 or 9 years now n she still getting 850 now 875 cuz they had to. N that aint the only case. My momz getz 11-2 cuz of the agency n even then it only 3-4 days of work mayb usually less. Agency shit also doesnt pay overtime and u dont qualify for EI. So look at where the majority of ppl are. Out of all devoloped countries canada got the most mcjobz.

And even the LICO always seemed to low because even b4 this recession shit anywhere around the cutoff ppl were struggling hard. Put it in perspective. If u a family of 4 2 kids 2 parents lets say. each makin 9 an hour that 360x2 a week righ at min. that 3g a month. Now put in taxes lets call it a str8 2.5-3g. Ur rent right there is 6-800. U got a car there u go, u take the bus ur ticcets are gonna be 25 a week each 200 a month total n metro pass is around that much anyway call it 170.

we already at almost 1/2 ur income on rent and transportation a bus being the cheapest u know if u have a car it more. Add in food, n any other shit nigga what u in? U in the RED. or u shoppin at no frills and price chopper lookin for the no name shit like every1 else in the hood. the low income cuttoff I think for 2 kids is like 35 or 36k. at 2 ppl actually above minimum ur below LICO but even if u got 2-3g more a year n u above the cutoff u worse cuz now u dont get the benefits. 3000 more a year equals 250 more a month which means u can now maybe get out of debt but I doubt it cuz I never even did the full cost of shit and depending on what bills u pay ur anywhere from I aint got a phone to shit cuz I got evicted.

A breakdown of costs total would be like ill do an avg lets say.

700 rent

grocery 8-1g(food got expensive shit)

internet would be 20-40 a month n a lot of ppl have it cuz it a better way to find a job.

if u pay electricity, water, etc depending on ur arrangements that anywhere from 3-500 a month mayb more

n already from basic shit we at almost 2g which already proly over cuz of taxes so know you have to cut bacc on shit.

If ur at the 250 a month more it means u can afford to live basically but if anything major happens like u need clothes, or u aint working n u gotta pay for medicine ur screwed hard. n with the 250 more U dont qualify for shit anymore. n that the situation. n Mcguilty added health care premiums did he not? so he screwin us even harder.

And remember this a good situation cuz it 2 kids n 2 parents who work. what if it lets say 4 kids, 2 parents, 2 elders only 1 who works. or a single mom with a couple kids. they may get some help from the gov but it always got a catch like if a single mom on welfare and her son works she loses some of her benefits as an example. It fucced up cuz

edit - And adding on to the overtime issues a lot of ppl esp immigrants are scared to stand up for themselves cuz they afraid they'll lose their job fast esp now and a lot of times they work overtime but dont get credited. Just wanted to add that it only affects full tim employment but an agency person ends up workin like 10 or 12 hours one day even if they dont work a next n if 8 hour the day they should get OT but they dont cuz it goes by hours per week and u can say it better but in this situation clearly it exploiting the workers because they can just cycle workers because there way more workers then jobs (kept that way a li?) so that they basically get free overtime shifts without having to pay for them.

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:12

Cueball

I am not talking about farm workers, I am talking about labour in the GTA. My point is simple. To live in Toronto as an independent person, you can barely get by on $10 an hour. You must have support elsewhere. I have not met anyone who is making less than $12 who is not supplementing their income with something from somewhere, in a very long time. Supplementing their income includes doing overtime shifts.

Fundamentally, the labour market is already established an effective minimum wage of between 10 and 12 dollars an hour. Employment agency rates prove this point precisely, because the employers are willing to pay employment agencies more than $10 an hour for labour. Not waht the employees are getting paid... but what the employers are willing to pay.

What is the point of effectively asking for something which is already occuring? What the NDP should really be asking for is an increase in the base rate of welfare, since that will drive up the value of labour in the market.

The situation is now that people are being forced to commit fraud against the welfare system by taking under the table jobs, while collecting welfare or ODSP.

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:21

Fidel

Liberal MP Ruby Dhalla pays home care workers $3.71 an hour and calls that love and respect for the human beings who skivvy for her and her family.

How many more Liberal-minded employers are there in Ontario paying people love and respect?

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:29

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

cue I am too a lot of ppl from the rex for example run a mission basically workin on a farm they do it nuff do nuff dont. N in the end it matters what employees are gettin paid not what the agencies are. I c ur point but raisin it a step ahead u know but puttin the cuttoffs at a higher income would also be better because atm it doesnt adjust for costs of living or anything only urban and rural. That means same cutoff for the GTA as halifax or some place.

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:40

Stockholm

Why is athread that deals exclusively with issues around the minimum wage got this bizarre title about the NDP being "broke and busted" - which it isn't.

Why not change the thread to title to "Pros and cons of raising the minimum wage"

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:40

Peter3

Although I am all in favour of encouraging the bourgeois radical element to vent, if only for the theatre of the absurd entertainment value, at some point reality has to intrude.

The statement that, "Fundamentally, the labour market is already established an effective minimum wage of between 10 and 12 dollars an hour" is bullshit. It is the sort of fatuous crap that could only come from someone with no connection to the reality confronting real people in real life at the bottom end of the income spectrum.

The $10 figure was put forward by the Ontario NDP as an immediate objective in 2007. It is not and never has been proposed as the single solution to poverty. Electoral politics being what it is, it was (and remains) necessary to propose objectives that people who vote might actually accept. If there is a political party out there willing to run on a $15 an hour minimum wage with the expectation of ever winning power (or even being taken seriously), they are kidding themselves in the current poltical environment. The fact is that $10 was and remains a hell of a lot better than the status quo.

And since Cueball is so big on repeating questions he has posed that he doesn't feel others are answering, I will ask him yet again, who do you recommend people vote for - in the interests of immediately arriving at the perfect society or whatever objective it is that your anti-factual, doctrinaire sneering is intended to support?

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:51

Unionist

I'd be far more impressed by Peter3's self-righteous insults directed against Cueball if in fact the NDP, where it does hold power, actually bothered to walk the talk and increased the minimum wage to $10. But I guess that would be far too "bourgeois radical" for the likes of Gary Doer. Or Calvert when he was in power. Oh, I forgot, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are poverty-stricken have-not provinces, unlike wealthy Ontario. I beg your pardon for expecting as much (never mind more) of an NDP government than of the others.

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:52

#10

Fidel

I think Liberals have disdain for small business owners besides the poor. Because reports say that poor people tend to buy goods and services from small businesses.

Vote Liberal(or Tory) if you hate poor people and small business owners!

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:52

#11

Peter3

Stockholm wrote:

Why is athread that deals exclusively with issues around the minimum wage got this bizarre title about the NDP being "broke and busted" - which it isn't.

Why not change the thread to title to "Pros and cons of raising the minimum wage"

In fairness, this is a continuation of a conversation that began as drift in a thread with a similar name. Otherwise, I agree.

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:57

#12

Stockholm

I cannot understand the posting above - can someone explain it to me?

Sun, 2009-06-14 22:59

#13

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Oh, I forgot, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are poverty-stricken have-not provinces, unlike wealthy Ontario. I beg your pardon for expecting as much (never mind more) of an NDP government than of the others.

Ontario had the highest min wage in the country by 1995.

And we've argued before about the race to the bottom with competition between large and small provincial economies under this neoliberal setup.

And the very Liberal Party-friendly counter argument is, it doesnt exist? It's one big happy neoliberalized family across Canada, and it's provincial NDP governments responsible for setting the pace for everyting from min wages to making up for a national housing strategy scrapped by the federal Liberals in the very neoliberal 1990s.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:00

#14

Unionist

I cannot understand the posting above - can someone explain it to me?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:04

#15

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

yea it continued so ppl know u know

but yo cuz Gatz for leader of the NDP ill do it yo fucc that I know the issues, I actually give a fucc, im comin from the ppl im reppin, and I couldnt give a fucc less what some old dude in parliament thought about me. I might too yung but get a muthafucca like me on dat cuz u know thatz fire right there

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:06

#16

Peter3

Unionist wrote:

I'd be far more impressed by Peter3's self-righteous insults directed against Cueball if in fact the NDP, where it does hold power, actually bothered to walk the talk and increased the minimum wage to $10. But I guess that would be far too "bourgeois radical" for the likes of Gary Doer. Or Calvert when he was in power. Oh, I forgot, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are poverty-stricken have-not provinces, unlike wealthy Ontario. I beg your pardon for expecting as much (never mind more) of an NDP government than of the others.

Which has sfa to do with the bizarre assertion made by your dear comrade that the market has already got the $10 minimum covered.

And, frankly, I really could not care less whether you find my comments to Cueball insulting. His references to my family's imagined socio-economic circumstances were even less defensible than intellectually bankrupt. Instrumentalized my ass.

Having said that, it's nice that you feel the need to ride to the defence of you pal. Good for you.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:14

#17

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Nothing drives me crazier than people who can't get their facts straight in their drive to be partisan or how intelectually cute they are. Saskatchewan has the third highest minimum wage in the country. Manitoba is 6th, but in the process of raising that wage. When it is raised this coming fall it will become the 4th highest -tied with Quebec.

I combed your post in vain for the explanation of where the $10 minimum wage is. Hypocrites are those who rebuke the sins of others and excuse their own. That's whom I was targeting in my post. I know more, from life experience, than I care to about the struggle to increase the minimum wage. I also know the meaning of hypocrisy.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:14

#18

Fidel

Put simply, is there competition between provinces with respect to everything from min wages to provincial corporate income taxes and even commercial power rates? Yes or no? And if so, what invisible hand shinola is responsible for this setup across Canada since 15-20 years ago?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:15

#19

Bookish Agrarian

Unionist wrote:

I'd be far more impressed by Peter3's self-righteous insults directed against Cueball if in fact the NDP, where it does hold power, actually bothered to walk the talk and increased the minimum wage to $10. But I guess that would be far too "bourgeois radical" for the likes of Gary Doer. Or Calvert when he was in power. Oh, I forgot, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are poverty-stricken have-not provinces, unlike wealthy Ontario. I beg your pardon for expecting as much (never mind more) of an NDP government than of the others.

Nothing drives me crazier than people who can't get their facts straight in their drive to be partisan or to show how intelectually cute they are. Saskatchewan has the third highest minimum wage in the country. Manitoba is 6th, but in the process of raising that wage. When it is raised this coming fall it will become the 4th highest -tied with Quebec.

Two posters in this discussion have demonstrated now that they don't have the first foggiest clue about the real lives, of real working people in the bottom of the economy. Time to come out of your bubble and take a walk around with the rest of us.

Incidently the highest rate in the country is Nunavut- currently at $10.00

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:15

#20

Fidel

How much bullshit will we have to sift through before we read something resembling an answer?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:18

#21

Unionist

Fidel wrote:
How much bullshit will we have to sift through before we read something resembling an answer?

Oh my, losing his temper. When he regains it, he will wax eloquent about why provincial NDP governments can't do shit because they will be crushed by Ottawa/Washingon/The Taliban, you name it. But while they're in opposition, they are omnipotent!! Makes me puke.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:19

#22

Krystalline Kraus Krystalline Kraus's picture

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

yea it continued so ppl know u know

but yo cuz Gatz for leader of the NDP ill do it yo fucc that I know the issues, I actually give a fucc, im comin from the ppl im reppin, and I couldnt give a fucc less what some old dude in parliament thought about me. I might too yung but get a muthafucca like me on dat cuz u know thatz fire right there

Translation: "hey guys, listen up! The leadership of the NDP does it very poorly, so screw them cuz I know what the real issues are. I actually give a damn. I am speaking for the people I'm representing and I could care less what some old dude in Parliamenht thinks about me. I may be young, but if I could get elected to Parliament I would do an excellent job cuz I know the passion of where people are coming from."

***

mos def, mi bro!!!! <clap clap>

Translation: Most definately, my brother!

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:21

#23

Bookish Agrarian

Of course YOU know the meaning of hypocrisy given YOUR track record. Pally Cueball keeps insistenting - against all evidence that somehow the effective minimum wage in Ontario is over $10 it isn't. His continued horseshit and patronizing comments are now being defended by you - again making comments that are completely incorrect. All so you can prove that the NDP would be elected if only it would align itself somewhere to the left of Marxist-Lennists Purity Party.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:27

#24

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

statica wrote:

Rexdale_Punjabi wrote:

yea it continued so ppl know u know

but yo cuz Gatz for leader of the NDP ill do it yo fucc that I know the issues, I actually give a fucc, im comin from the ppl im reppin, and I couldnt give a fucc less what some old dude in parliament thought about me. I might too yung but get a muthafucca like me on dat cuz u know thatz fire right there

Translation: "hey guys, listen up! The leadership of the NDP does it very poorly, so screw them cuz I know what the real issues are. I actually give a damn. I am speaking for the people I'm representing and I could care less what some old dude in Parliamenht thinks about me. I may be young, but if I could get elected to Parliament I would do an excellent job cuz I know the passion of where people are coming from."

***

mos def, mi bro!!!! <clap clap>

Translation: Most definately, my brother!

way u put it sounds like a follytician tryna tricc ppl u know na Im just saying that I walk down the blocc n find way better leaders for that party I cant even get elected yet too young u know. But, Idk id be lieing if I knew how politriccs was and so there proly a reason most follyticians turn crooked u know beside being they just crooked which it could be u know still.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:27

#25

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Fidel wrote:
How much bullshit will we have to sift through before we read something resembling an answer?
Oh my, losing his temper. When he regains it, he will wax eloquent about why provincial NDP governments can't do shit because they will be crushed by Ottawa/Washingon/The Taliban, you name it. But while they're in opposition, they are omnipotent!! Makes me puke.

And I see you have nothing new to add to this same discussion several months later. I think last time you at least made a feeble attempt to explain how inter-provincial market dynamics operate under the neoliberal setup, or something else that was borderline poor bashing and pandering to the old party line simultaneously. ~yawn~

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:28

#26

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
... making comments that are completely incorrect.

Name one, O literate agriculturist!

Quote:
All so you can prove that the NDP would be elected if only it would align itself somewhere to the left of Marxist-Lennists Purity Party.

Yeah, $10 minimum wage in Manitoba would be [size=25]GODDAMN BOLSHEVISM!!![/size]

The NDP is already elected, my good friend. Unless it can prove, by its deeds (not its useless pre-election promises and campaigns), that it is more favourable to working people than the other parties, it deserves to die a swift and hygienic death. Fortunately, there have been provincial NDP governments that have distinguished themselves and taken courageous measures in that respect. The Doers and Calverts are not among them.

Your blind partisanship makes it impossible, nay, politically inadvisable, to separate the good NDP from the bad NDP. You can't even grasp for one second the disconnect between: 1) calling on Liberals and Tories to raise the minimum wage to $10; and 2) not doing it yourself. What kind of nightmare do you live in?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:32

#27

Fidel

You were never NDP. Youre an old line party shill and a fraud. Next comes the James Brown routine complete with cape and several agonizing encores. So predictable.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:32

#28

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

You were never NDP. Youre an old line party shill and a fraud.

How can you say that? You were my friend. My lover. And now, only tears. Remembrances of time past. I can't speak. Come back to me. Yield. It shall be as before. I promise.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:32

#29

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Fidel wrote:

You were never NDP. Youre an old line party shill and a fraud. Next comes the James Brown routine complete with cape and several agonizing encores. So predictable.

dont forget the perm bro u cant forget the perm or mayb a jerry curl lol

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:44

#30

Bookish Agrarian

Anti-non-collective bargining worker Unionist your claim was quite simple. The NDP governments of Doer and Calvert have done nothing. Yet the actual facts, you know those pesky things that are actually verifiable is that the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan are amongst the highest in the country. Only Nunavut and Ontario beat Saskatchewan, and come this fall, Manitoba will be one step behind- tied with Quebec. So on the very face of it your spurious claim is utter bullshit.

Should minimum wage be higher everywhere? Yes it should, but it is clear -from the actual verifiable facts is that the NDP is the political party leading the way. Raising minimum wage is a complicated issue - speaking as someone who has to pay wages to others from time to time - but it is clear the NDP has tipped its balance towards workers. Those are the facts actual data shows.

I am not acting partisan in this issue at all. Merely pointing out that those who are acting partisan, like you and Cueball, in the sense you are making made up attacks against one political party, are doing so with complete untruthfulness. What I object to is not people who critisize the NDP - go to'er, but rather who just make shit up and pretend they are not attacking from a partisan - even if it is just a hate on for an organization. That is a level of complete moral and intellectually bankrupt behaviour no one should tolerate.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:44

#31

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I am not acting partisan in this issue at all. Merely pointing out that those who are acting partisan, like you and Cueball, in the sense you are making made up attacks against one political party, are doing so with complete untruthfulness.

I'll give you a little more time to find the completely untruthful statement I made. Let me know when you're done.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:47

#32

Cueball

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

Of course YOU know the meaning of hypocrisy given YOUR track record. Pally Cueball keeps insistenting - against all evidence that somehow the effective minimum wage in Ontario is over $10 it isn't. His continued horseshit and patronizing comments are now being defended by you - again making comments that are completely incorrect. All so you can prove that the NDP would be elected if only it would align itself somewhere to the left of Marxist-Lennists Purity Party.

More misrepresentation. I have repeatedly pointed out that the effectvie minimum wage in the GTA is $10 an hour.

It's a pretty simple calculation my friend, if you think that the absolute minimum wage that someone in Guelph could live on, then obviously its below the minimum wage in Toronto, where it costs twice as much to live.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:47

#33

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Cueball n I have repeatdly pointed out that it AINT. n ye Bookish u hate fakes a li?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:48

#34

Bookish Agrarian

Which is a compete misrepresentation of truth and reality as has been pointed out time and again. But I have learned to never expect truth, an honest depiction of reality or even common decency from you. And you sly claims that those making minimum wage must be working under the table - a criminal offense if recieving assistance, along with other activities reveals an underlying desire to poor bash along with your willingness to make shit up.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:49

#35

Fidel

Formulaic responses for all these NDP-bashing threads go something like this:

1. Provincial NDP just as useless as the two old line parties

2. What second-hand top-down neoliberal shinola? (and-or mostly no response and ignore, because that's a Liberal-Tory legacy issue, and we dont go there)

3. Therefore, a federal NDP government will be powerless to do anything at the national level, exactly the same as provincial ones!!

And a dash of old line party faith sprinkled in there somewhere. Nothing to see here folks, just the usual crap.

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:51

#36

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Raising minimum wage is a complicated issue - speaking as someone who has to pay wages to others from time to time - but it is clear the NDP has tipped its balance towards workers.

Imagine. The NDP. Tipping its balance towards workers. Even though raising the minimum wage is so "complicated" (and here I thought "search and replace" would do the trick). Where do I send the thank-you note?

Sun, 2009-06-14 23:51

#37

Bookish Agrarian

Unionist wrote:
Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I am not acting partisan in this issue at all. Merely pointing out that those who are acting partisan, like you and Cueball, in the sense you are making made up attacks against one political party, are doing so with complete untruthfulness.

I'll give you a little more time to find the completely untruthful statement I made. Let me know when you're done.

Your entire premise is based on a lie told so you can make your point that the NDP is somehow the most intense bastion of pro-poverty activists in the nation. You are a sorry excuse for the intellectual honesty that you so demand of others.

So are you and Cueball co-leaders of of the MLPP- or is it to bourgeous to have a leader?

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:01

#38

Bookish Agrarian

Unionist wrote:
Bookish Agrarian wrote:
Raising minimum wage is a complicated issue - speaking as someone who has to pay wages to others from time to time - but it is clear the NDP has tipped its balance towards workers.
Imagine. The NDP. Tipping its balance towards workers. Even though raising the minimum wage is so "complicated" (and here I thought "search and replace" would do the trick). Where do I send the thank-you note?

If you don't think sudden jumps in minimum wage is complicated for small business running on razor thin margins you are even more out to lunch that I could have thought. I did not say it was wrong- but that is was complcated - and it is.

Responsible employers who are already paying more than minimum wage because they think they should pay their employees more suddenly find that the cushion they built into wage payments is gone - forcing them - if they want to stay ahead of minimum wage to find the money- from already tight margins- to do so. If you have ever once tried to sell anything in the marketplace you would know there is a fine line between what you need to charge to cover costs and return on investment and what the market will bear. Finding that balance can be very complicated in the real world.

That doesn't mean you take it out on workers - but it does mean you recognize there is a balance that needs to at least be acknowledged as the minimum wage works its way from the bottom of the economy up. So for instance- a sudden $5.00 an hour raise in the wage rate might be desirable (heck it would be desirable)- you can't just make that big a jump all in one go and not expect economic repercussions for both employers and the very people you are trying to help.

In short it is complicated - but important too work at.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:03

#39

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

So are you and Cueball co-leaders of of the MLPP- or is it to bourgeous to have a leader?

I've been trying not to return your hateful provocative comments and your amateurish psychology in kind.

I will say this, however. As a rural businessman and employer, I'll bet your bottom line suffers every single time the minimum wage is increased. For my part, as someone who owns absolutely nothing and has never had the misfortune of "creating jobs" for anyone, dramatic rises in workers' wages don't hurt me one bit. Even as a "taxpayer" I don't feel much pain.

I realize that the NDP must accommodate workers like me and owners like you. I believe that's possible. But it does require some humility on the part of those who live, even in part, off the labour of others.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:06

#40

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Imagine. The NDP. Tipping its balance towards workers. Even though raising the minimum wage is so "complicated" (and here I thought "search and replace" would do the trick). Where do I send the thank-you note?

It's not complicated. If tiny Manitoba's economy raises minimum wage or prov. corporate taxes, or raise commercial power rates to or above what they are in larger provincial economies, scrawny Manitoba runs the risk for all those scabby private enterprise outfits they gained since Mulroney, Chretien, and Filmon moving anywhere else in Canada. Except for maybe Liberal Ontario where we've run out of cheap power and McGuinty only mails corporate welfare cheques to whichever bankrupt US car company the Harper feds instruct him to.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:10

#41

Bookish Agrarian

"But it does require some humility on the part of those who live, even in part, off the labour of others."

My Lord but you are a passive aggressive asshole. You know nothing about our business, but you presume to lecture that we need humililty. I would suggest instead you learn some kind of level of common decency.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:11

#42

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

yea I c u BA union n cue yall diggin urselves into a grave. What I think should happen is tax cutz for small businesses and regular workers and corporate tax increases? And with that u can also raise the minimum wage the ppl at the bottom make more n fund ur programs with the ppl at the top. They dont like it? Just say democracy bitch yall in the 1000z we in the millions. Of course that wont happen. I never understood why parties bow to big business pressure when if they want votes shouldnt they go for the regular person or is it cuz regular ppl are tricced into thinking their interests lie with big business? Or is it a funding or money issue with the follyticians pocceting money for campaigns and into their own because a lot of regular ppl cant afford to donate or dont.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:15

#43

Unionist

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

My Lord but you are a passive aggressive asshole. You know nothing about our business, but you presume to lecture that we need humililty. I would suggest instead you learn some kind of level of common decency.

I don't think I commented on anything except the need to avoid arrogance when talking about workers. I will add to that the need to stop calling people names. Scroll back and read your posts and try to identify the "common decency" therein.

As for "our business" (I presume you mean "us" who employ minimum-wage labour), let me speak plainly. Any business that can't afford to pay decent minimal wages - or can't afford statutory minimums regarding vacations, hours of work, health and safety - should be shut down. Their so-called "owners" should go out and get a real job. These businesses do not deserve to exist in a decent society.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:16

#44

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

And now we're useless eaters. I've had enough of this fascist baloney.

God it gives me goosebumps when you talk about processed meat!

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:16

#45

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

I realize that the NDP must accommodate workers like me and owners like you. I believe that's possible. But it does require some humility on the part of those who live, even in part, off the labour of others.

What's this about useless eaters?

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:19

#46

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Fidel wrote:

And now we're useless eaters. I've had enough of this fascist baloney.

God it gives me goosebumps when you talk about processed meat!

Well if you dont want to explain that off-hand remark above and continue nailing-up inebriated ramblings, I'm going to have to turn you in to the rabble gestapo.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:21

#47

Bookish Agrarian

A bizzarely huge number of workers identify with the Family Compact rather than their own neigbours Rexdale - it is something very old. If you were the landed aristocriscy you could always find some peaseant willing to do the dirty work of the Lord of the Manor for instance. I have never understood it, but it happens all the time in Canadian history.

I am always reminded of the 1995 election that brought Mike Harris to power. I had the misfortune to graduate at the begining of the early 90s recession. The only people hiring at the time was Social Services. So I went to work there hoping I could change things from the inside even. I know, I know young and naive. Anyway - I was astounded by the number of people I was working with who had Conservative signs in their windows and on their lawns. It was their view that it was everyone else on welfare that were the cheats. Meanwhile the real story was that almost no one was cheating or misusing the meagre assistance they were receiving- but the province needed a scapegoat I guess.

It broke my heart knowing they were working so against their own interests. Add that to all the civil servants, teachers and others who were doing similar things and you learn the lesson that we Canadians are not quite so politically sophisticated as one would hope.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:23

#48

Bookish Agrarian

Unionist wrote:
Bookish Agrarian wrote:

My Lord but you are a passive aggressive asshole. You know nothing about our business, but you presume to lecture that we need humililty. I would suggest instead you learn some kind of level of common decency.

I don't think I commented on anything except the need to avoid arrogance when talking about workers. I will add to that the need to stop calling people names. Scroll back and read your posts and try to identify the "common decency" therein. As for "our business" (I presume you mean "us" who employ minimum-wage labour), let me speak plainly. Any business that can't afford to pay decent minimal wages - or can't afford statutory minimums regarding vacations, hours of work, health and safety - should be shut down. Their so-called "owners" should go out and get a real job. These businesses do not deserve to exist in a decent society.

Nice try, but your comments clearly read as if they are targeted at me specifically in the need for humility - which it to laugh given the source.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:27

#49

Rexdale_Punjabi Rexdale_Punjabi's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

A bizzarely huge number of workers identify with the Family Compact rather than their own neigbours Rexdale - it is something very old. If you were the landed aristocriscy you could always find some peaseant willing to do the dirty work of the Lord of the Manor for instance. I have never understood it, but it happens all the time in Canadian history.

I am always reminded of the 1995 election that brought Mike Harris to power. I had the misfortune to graduate at the begining of the early 90s recession. The only people hiring at the time was Social Services. So I went to work there hoping I could change things from the inside even. I know, I know young and naive. Anyway - I was astounded by the number of people I was working with who had Conservative signs in their windows and on their lawns. It was their view that it was everyone else on welfare that were the cheats. Meanwhile the real story was that almost no one was cheating or misusing the meagre assistance they were receiving- but the province needed a scapegoat I guess.

It broke my heart knowing they were working so against their own interests. Add that to all the civil servants, teachers and others who were doing similar things and you learn the lesson that we Canadians are not quite so politically sophisticated as one would hope.

divide and conquer at its finest what do u mean by family compact never heard that b4

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:30

#50

Fidel

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I am always reminded of the 1995 election that brought Mike Harris to power.

Save it, BA. Youre replying to people who think Mike Harris was an A-one kinda guy, and that McGuilty's just as impressive from their small-minded point of view. Really small. So small they have to step outside to change their minds. Theyre not worth the extra spit.

Mon, 2009-06-15 00:30

#51

Bookish Agrarian

Sorry, being the old history buff throwing out terms like that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Compact

Both Tommy_Paine and I would tell you not much has changed.

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