Maybe he did mean Toe Head, whatever that is. I can't find a definition for it though.
Holocaust By Bullets
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:11
#52
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:17
#53
I would hope you're not opposed to additional information on the topic.
Yes actually, but it's not on-topic. The poster howardbeale attempted to sidetrack this thread about Holocaust events in the former Soviet Union and was told to cut it out by mods. You might find [url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,625824,00.html#ref=nli... to be interesting additional information about the subject at hand.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:18
#54
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Slumber J, I dealt with that post some time ago and revised my comment accordingly. No one here is suggesting the that the nazis didnt execute Poles and Polish Jews by firing squads.I would hope you're not opposed to additional information on the topic. It was offered as such, as gut wrenching as it is to read. In that light, why not give the Soviet NKVD their due as well for one of their monstrosities.
As horrendous as Katyn is in terms of bloodshed, I don't think you can equate the slaughter of military and police in wartime to the civilian slaughters by the Einsatzgruppen.
Why are some here so desperate to try to fabricate absolute equivalence between the Nazis and the Soviets?
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:20
#55
The poster howardbeale attempted to sidetrack this thread about Holocaust events in the former Soviet Union and was told to cut it out by mods.
He was warned for another reason.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:24
#56
Maybe he did mean Toe Head, whatever that is. I can't find a definition for it though.
Try trawling, or towing the line.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:29
#57
As horrendous as Katyn is in terms of bloodshed, I don't think you can equate the slaughter of military and police in wartime to the civilian slaughters by the Einsatzgruppen. Why are some here so desperate to try to fabricate absolute equivalence between the Nazis and the Soviets?
What a ridiculous inference, and a vile attack worthy of nothing but utter contempt. There was a suggestion up thread regarding the NKVD not being responsible for any mass graves in the former Soviet Union. The record suggests otherwise. It is not equivalence, equating, or any other boneheaded fabrication of yours.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:37
#58
Why are you such an idiot? That's the pertinent question.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:38
#59
[What a ridiculous inference, and a vile attack worthy of nothing but utter contempt. There was a suggestion up thread regarding the NKVD not being responsible for any mass graves in the former Soviet Union. The record suggests otherwise. It is not equivalence, equating, or any other boneheaded fabrication of yours.
Slumber jack, why are you doing your darndest to change the subject at hand, ie. The Holocaust, and even, Holocaust by bullets? None of the hundreds of eye witnesses to the more than 800 mass extermination sites have implicated the Soviets.
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:41
#60
Why are you such an idiot? That's the pertinent question.
So besides having ADD, are you a Holocaust denier, too?
Thu, 2009-06-18 22:49
#61
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
What a ridiculous inference, and a vile attack worthy of nothing but utter contempt. There was a suggestion up thread regarding the NKVD not being responsible for any mass graves in the former Soviet Union. The record suggests otherwise. It is not equivalence, equating, or any other boneheaded fabrication of yours.
There's no inference, that was a bald statement. And you might recognize another statement, this one definitely implies one equates to the other as a parallel monstrosity:
I would hope you're not opposed to additional information on the topic. It was offered as such, as gut wrenching as it is to read. In that light, why not give the Soviet NKVD their due as well for one of their monstrosities.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:01
#62
In your fictional la la land, I suppose anything you conjure up can be useful, in convincing yourself with absurdities. But then from what I can gather from your most of your other posts, it's pretty much standard fare. You and Beavis the Second in this thread make quite the pair.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:11
#63
What can we do to prod and cajole you into discussing the thread topic, Slumberjack?
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:12
#64
Cueball
The Nazi attitude to Poland is somewhat reminicent of the US attitude to Iraq today.As bad as it is and continues to be, with the horrific casualties among innocent Iraqis from the first war, to the sanctions regime, and the second war and occupation, nothing tops what was done in Poland, not even the Ukraine, as monstrous as the Nazi crimes were there.
I meant in terms of the plundering of the civilian adminstration. The Iraqi economy is a basket case, because of fraud, rabid personal profiteering and mismanagement. It is somewhat simillar to the attitudes of the German Gauletiers of Poland during the war.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:32
#65
The lebensraun part is still reserved for the US's little attack dog, Israel.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:42
#66
What can we do to prod and cajole you into discussing the thread topic, Slumberjack?
You can go away and fuck yourself. That might get things back on track for the adults.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:46
#67
tsk-tsk Nazi turd
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:53
#68
Cueball
Obviously Patrick Debois is doing important historical work. That said, there isn't anything in that site which suggests that he is revising the estimated numbers of people killed by the Einsatzgruppen. Much of the specific nature of what they did has been studied in great detail before. Why? Because they were German military organization that were assidious record keepers. They did nothing to hide what they were doing from their superiors and were rewarded for success, and put everything on the record. Success meant exterminating undesirables, from commissars to Jews.
Fairly accurate statistical summaries of their brutality has already established simply by going through their own records.
I didn't realize that this was all news to you Fidel, and that the scope of the massacres were not something you were aware of. Frankly, I am surprised that for someone who takes such pride in his knowledge of the Stalanist period of Russian history seemed oblivious to these facts. So, I offer my appologies, since I had thought you would be aware of these historical attrocities. Therefore I was under the impression that you were saying the number of those killed should be revised upward for some reason.
I guess you just weren't aware of the numbers, and so you shock is actually not at all suprising.
Debois is not telling us anything new in terms of statistics. But working to consecrate and honour the forgotten victims of the victims of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. A very worthy activity, putting names to the faces of the victims, who were more than mere statistics.
As a scholar in these matters he is also very careful to establish these events in their historical context of the racialist view of the National Socialist toward Slavs and Jews, as he does here:
During the invasion of Austria, in March, 1938, Himmler and Heydrich created the "Einstazgruppen" for the first time. These "SS intervention groups" were mobile commandos whose job was to arrest and, if necessary, execute individuals the regime considered to be enemies. They were initially made up of SS officials and the police.[SNIP]
The Jews living in conquered Poland were assembled in immense ghettos as of the Autumn of 1939. Hunger and epidemics brought about the death of many thousands of them. From September 1939 onwards, the Einsatzgruppen massacred more than 70 000 Poles and Jews in just a few weeks.
The Start of the Genocidal Policy
Quite contrary to your assertions, Debois is properly pointing out the policy set out by the Nazis for Eastern Europe prior to the war begins in Poland and then is extended on a much larger scale in the Ukraine and Belarus.
Thank you Father Debois for keeping the record straight and free of the political motivations of those who really only want to score brownie points for their personal political agenda, not honour the victims of the Nazi extermination campaign.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:58
#69
Vaudree you are correct, our educational system is poor at best. We have not learned anything from our past.
Thu, 2009-06-18 23:59
#70
Thanks, vaudree.
Fri, 2009-06-19 00:01
#71
Cueball
Not to mention many of the massacres that happened in Western Ukraine happened to Polish-Jews, since, of course, Western Ukraine was part of Poland up until the time Stalin gave his blessing the German invasion of Poland in exchange for Galicia and the surrounding area. In this sense, Soviet appeasement, for the puroposes of Soviet territorial expansion, directly implicate Stalin as an indirect accomplice.
Fri, 2009-06-19 00:18
#72
Obviously Patrick Debois is doing important historical work. That said, there isn't anything in that site which suggests that he is revising the estimated numbers of people killed by the Einsatzgruppen. Much of the specific nature of what they did has been studied in great detail before. Why? Because they were German military organization that were assidious record keepers.
This is sad. Youre full of shit as per usual. Yes the Nazis kept meticulous records and were prolific photographers and filmers of their own crimes. But that didnt stop them from attempting to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll]des... evidence and paper records[/url] toward the end. As it became apparent the Red Army would overrun the death camps near Kracow, SS commanders tried to destroy as many paper records as possible before fleeing the scene of the crime.
[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-holy-mission-to-reveal-... holy mission to reveal the truth about Nazi death squads[/url]
The oral histories they have gathered, along with detailed ballistic evidence, could soon change the face of the study of the Holocaust, pushing the final death toll upwards by as much as 500,000 victims. They are also, he hopes, providing irrefutable proof in the face of increasingly vocal Holocaust deniers, emboldened by the disappearance of the generation still able to recall the horrors of the Third Reich as they actually happened. . .
The reason for taking up this work is simple: to restore the dignity of the uncounted and largely unmourned dead who were slaughtered and piled into pits like animals, and to allow the Kaddish - the Jewish prayer of mourning - to be recited over their final resting places. But there is another reason too; to prevent a repeat of the Holocaust. . .
It is estimated that a minimum of 1.5 million Jews and Gypsies were killed in Ukraine during the Second World War. The country was second only to Poland for the number of Nazi murders on its soil. A further 500,000 perished in Belarus, while the exact numbers that perished in the vast expanse of Russia, where the German army was encamped some 17 miles from the Kremlin in the Moscow suburbs, or even in occupied Ossetia, can still only be guessed at - until that is these territories, too, welcome in the priest and his helpers to unlock the memories of survivors there too.
Fri, 2009-06-19 00:20
#73
First of all, "Holocaust By Bullets" was on the National last night - which means that, if you haven't seen it yet, the video is up now:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/special_feature/holocaust_by_bullets/hol...
Father Patrick Desbois's story started with his grandfather who was imprisoned during the war and who said something about what happened to the Jews was worse than what happened to himself. Eventually, his grandfather told him what happened and Desbois made it his life's work to discover what happened to the remains. On the way, he met with a few survivors. Two of the survivors who were rescued by the Church and then lived in the forest for 18 months told their story to father Desbois. The is also the story about the rings - often a soon to be executed woman's last act of defiance. I wonder what the NAZIs wanted with those rings any way.
Secondly, David Lewis (second leader of the federal NDP) took steps to insure that Communists did not enter the NDP because of what the Soviets did to his father Moshe. Likewise, Naomi Klein and Linda McQuaig are great examples of the anti Communist left. That said, I don't think that the soviets were presented as the bad guys in "Holocaust by Bullets." David Lewis later returned to the town his father came from before WWII, where he met with relatives and later after WWII where he met with none.
Thirdly, although we should be discussing the mini doc, which was very moving, I don't think that the message that father Desbois wants to leave us with is that only the graves he personally dug up are worth caring about. Desbois worked with Mother Teresa once and she figured that all victems had worth. The documentation was to show that each of the victims were person, had worth, existed - that they were not nameless statistics.
Finally, we also need to take the lessons of WWII with us that when there is an economic crisis that we turn on the most vulnerable and easiest to blame and hate. During WWII it was the Jews and the Gypsies - in California right now, it is the poor and immigrants (Fault Lines). Avi Lewis came to the town his great-grandfather immigrated from and found out that all the Jews had been wiped out - though some in the town have taken it as their responsibility to preserve the memory of their existence - preserving any picture or any memory of those slaughtered by bullets. Ok it was a town in Poland rather than the Ukraine - but it was the same obliteration. In fact, the town father Desbois grandfather was imprisoned in was in the Ukraine but near its border with Poland.
Is it ok to do more slowly what the bullets did more quickly?
Fri, 2009-06-19 00:30
#74
Cueball
Oh you mean that Father Dubois intends to count all 1.5 million? How do you think these estimates were devised? They were devised using the records not destroyed, comparisons of census statistics, interogations, trials and forensic work that started immediatly after WWII. Dubois, isn't some pedant trying to prove some inane political point on a web site, about how the Nazi killed more people in the Soviet Union than Poland, or that up until 41 the Germans were "holding the Jews hostage" for political puposes.
Quite the opposite. What he is doing is quite a bit different than that, as I said he is:
...is not telling us anything new in terms of statistics. But working to consecrate and honour the forgotten victims of the of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. A very worthy activity, putting names to the faces of the victims, who were more than mere statistics.
Your axe grinding is a diservice to history, not to mention the dead.
Fri, 2009-06-19 00:50
#75
Well first you said this:
Much of the specific nature of what they did has been studied in great detail before. Why? Because they were German military organization that were assidious record keepers. They did nothing to hide what they were doing from their superiors and were rewarded for success, and put everything on the record.
And now youve backpedalled to the position that Holocaust numbers are only estimates derived from what records were not destroyed.
How do you think these estimates were devised? They were devised using the records not destroyed,...
In fact, Holocaust deniers have pointed similarly to inconsistencies in the way that historians have wavered and changed their minds on the total number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust. They point those inconsistencies as evidence that the Holocaust either didnt occcur or in low-balling the total numbers down to the 200,000 to half a million range.
And Desbois is being very careful not to commit errors in his forensic investigation of newly discovered grave sites and is working toward revising the total number upward by as much as half a million in Ukraine alone. These are the remains of the uncounted. Desbois is working against time though.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:04
#76
Maybe we could agree that war crimes were committed by all military forces during the war and that these crimes likely started in September, 1939.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:12
#77
Cueball
I really think the numbers game is a lot of crap. Personally I think the whole thing of you evaluating the Nazi racial policies and downplaying the massacres in Poland is not only a-historical, but also extremely offensive. Fact is the attrocity was so extensive that there is absolutely no way the true numbers will ever be devined... nor are they that important.
What is important about what Dubois is doing, is trying to tell the stories of indivduals and communities. This has nothing to do with evaluating the overall tally, which morally and politically speaking are irrelevant, even if shocking, though of historical import.
Stalin made famous the saying, "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic". It is sad that you have decided to take up this refrain in the name of Dubois work, simply because I had the audacity to point out that the program was not a unique victimization of Soviet citizens, but a general policy of the NSDAP and their operatives, as far as Jews and Slavs were concerned, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarus.
I will not encourage this abuse further. So good night.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:14
#78
Maybe we could agree that war crimes were committed by all military forces during the war and that these crimes likely started in September, 1939.
We're talking about the Holocaust, and whose prime target was Jewish people. This wasnt a Soviet agenda but rather a specific policy of Adolf Hitler's and his Nazi regime during Nazi Germany's war of annihilation against Soviet communism.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:18
#79
Cueball
Yeah, and it was a ride in the park for the Poles, half of who were forced into submission to Stalin's ambitions in order that Hitler could begin his pogrom. Get lost you wanker.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:27
#80
Yeah, and it was a ride in the park for the Poles, half of who were forced into submission to Stalin's ambitions in order that Hitler could begin his pogrom. Get lost you wanker.
You certainly tried to deflect blame from the Nazis to the Soviets for the mass graves now being excavated in Ukraine, your assholiness. This thread isnt about your pea-brain attempts at Holocaust revisionism. When you feel an ADD attack coming on and sense an urge to salute the fuhrer, try meditating for a few moments, breathin deeply, and not posting foot-in-mouth notes to us for a change
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:35
#81
Fidel, I do not think anyone is disagreeing with you about Hitler's agenda. It is only the method some people are disagreeing with you.
The fact that most of those killed in those initial years of the conflict by firearms should not be all that surprising with anyone with a high school diploma.
I would not find it surprising that some of those mass graves were committed by Soviet forces, however that is not the point of this thread.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:38
#82
You were the one who stepped in it with assigning probable blame for these 800 plus mass graves to the NKVD in post#29, dickhead.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:39
#83
Cueball
The only one who is engaging in Holocaust revisionism here is you. You are the one who is trying to make it out that the policy was really about the Soviet Union, and not ethnic cleansing of Jews, Slavs and other "undesirables", and first denying and then downplaying the ethnic cleansing of Poles and Polish Jews. Your insinuations are as disgusting as your crappy attempt rewrite history to obviate the obvious responsibility that Joseph Stalin carries for letting Hitler set up his house of horrors in Poland in the first place.
At first I had no idea that you were engaged in such political chicanery, and thought that you, like Father Dubois, would understand that the policy begins in Poland. But no, you insist in trying to make it look as if the Soviet Union was the only real victim, and using those myriad frightful and horrifying deaths as a means of winning political points for your buddy Joseph Stalin.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:44
#84
Cueball
Probable? Don't see that word there. You made it up. I pointed out that there are a lot of mass graves in the old Soviet Union, and not all of them are attributable to the Wehrmacht and the Einsatsgruppen. Perhaps one day someone will start digging up the Siberian tagia, and start coallating so that people like you can start debating the ethics of statistics and mass slaughter.
It is said that history is written by the victors, in your case it is be written by a loser.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:47
#85
I would not find it surprising that some of those mass graves were committed by Soviet forces, however that is not the point of this thread.
Well that's what Patrick Desbois said about it - that Holocaust deniers have tried to elicit confessions from those same Ukrainians in hopes they would tell exactly what you and Joe Cuebbels up there have suggested about the Soviets having perpetrated some of the 800 mass extermination sites discovered in only recent years.
And the Nazi-sympathizing deniers have been SOL so far.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:49
#86
It is said that history is written by the victors, in your case it is be written by a loser.
sieg heil ya nazi bastard
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:50
#87
Cueball
It is entirely reasonable to ask for details regarding the forensic evidence. After all, the Soviets put it over on people like you for years that the Katyn forest massacre was a german war crime, when in fact it was an NKVD war crime.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:56
#88
Cueball
Thankfully Dubois does not support your insidious suggestion that the Nazi's were merely committing "batch" executions in Poland, and not real massacres, before they even got started in Russia. He knows what he is talking about. You don't. That is probably because you don't assemble evidence and then come to a conclusion, but come to your conclusion, and then assemble your evidence to fit that conclusion.
It's sad that it turns out that you started this thread for the purpose of manipulating DuBois's work to create sympathy for the Stalanist cause, as opposed to Hitler's victims.
Fri, 2009-06-19 01:59
#89
Fidel, are you saying the Soviet Army did not conduct any war crimes during the conflict?
All I stated that there is likely speculation that some of graves were caused by Soviet forces.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:00
#90
But it was YOU who made insidious mention of executing Polish Jews "in batches" in post numero 27, ya frig. You should have your eyes checked, or something.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:06
#91
Cueball
Yes, and indeed I showed a picture of just such an firing squad. Not at all like those seen at Babi Yar, where they also shot people in "batches". One "batch" at time. A whole lot of "batches" makes one big massacre. It was you who tried to make a distinction between "batches", massacre and Holocaust.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:11
#92
Fidel, are you saying the Soviet Army did not conduct any war crimes during the conflict?
No I've said Uncle Joe was a ruthless mofo in threads where such talk was relevant to the thread title. Red Army slaughtered hundreds of thousands of German soldiers at the infernal kessel and other sites. Murdered them in fact. And any German soldiers retreating along the way who had any hint of SS insignia or tattoos were executed on the spot by Red Army. Yes, the Red Army committed war crimes, too. They gave as good as they got in some cases during the advance on Berlin.
All I stated that there is likely speculation that some of graves were caused by Soviet forces.
If so, then it's yours and Joe Cuebbel's wild speculation in this thread only a few posts ago. Dont you remember? And Desbois has stated that none of the hundreds of eye witnesses he's spoken with in Ukraine ratted on the Soviets or even the NKVD who they probably still remember being in fear of. No, they used terms like "SS", waffen SS, and German soldiers and collaborators to describe who were the triggermen on site in those days. Nothing about the NKVD in their confessions to father Desbois as you and Joe Cuebells were hoping for though.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:17
#93
Cueball
What wild speculations? Its a matter of public record that the NKVD massacred Polish Prisoners of war in the Katyn forest, and then pretended it was a German crime. It is also well known that 90% of German soldiers captured at Stalingrad never returned home. Its perfectly logical to consider the possibility that new mass graves will be found where the victims are other than Russians, of one kind of antother. There is both a precedent, and also many questions about what happened to German soldier prisoners.
In 1943 the Nazis exhumed the Polish dead and blamed the Soviets. In 1944, having retaken the Katyn area from the Nazis, the Soviets exhumed the Polish dead again and blamed the Nazis. The rest of the world took its usual sides in such arguments.In 1989, with the collapse of Soviet Power, Gorbachev finally admitted that the Soviet NKVD had executed the Poles, and confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn. Stalin's order of March 1940 to execute by shooting some 25,700 Poles, including those found at the three sites, was also disclosed with the collapse of Soviet Power. This particular second world war slaughter of Poles is often referred to as the "Katyn Massacre" or the "Katyn Forest Massacre".
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:18
#94
Fidel, sorry I couldn't participate in this thread because it makes me ill. Thank you for holding firm against the moral relativism and historical revisionism of certain posters.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:19
#95
What wild speculations? Its a matter of public record that the NKVD massacred Polish Prisoners of war in the Katyn forest, and then pretended it was a German crime.
Yes, several thousand Polish military officers and soldiers were murdered in the Katyn forest massacre. Happy? Can we put away the straw man arg now and get back to discussing Nazi war crimes in Ukraine ie. the topic of dicussion, ya frig?
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:22
#96
Fidel, sorry I couldn't participate in this thread because it makes me ill. Thank you for holding firm against the moral relativism and historical revisionism of certain posters.
Can you take over now, Unionist? I'm exhausted scrapping with the revisionists here. TTFN
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:38
#97
Cueball
Fidel, sorry I couldn't participate in this thread because it makes me ill. Thank you for holding firm against the moral relativism and historical revisionism of certain posters.
It's moral relativism to point out that the racialist policy and ethnic cleansing begun against Slavs and Jews began in Poland? There aint nothing "relative" about it. It is the truth, as Dubois points out, clearly in his description of the evolution of the policy.
Its moral relativism to point out that the Soviet government fabricated evidence and tried to pin its own massacres of Poles on the Nazis and that as late as 2000 the Russians still had not admitted where all the bodies were?
There are bodies ready to be exhumed all over the former Soviet Union, and not all of them are victims of the Nazis.
I have said nothing to negate Dubois work, Nor has anyone else. They have just asked simple questions. Reasonable ones at that. What I have objected to is this absurd rendering of the history which does everything to highlight German crimes against the Soviet Union, but downplays German crimes against Poles and Polish Jews, and even Stalin's responsibility for his own part in making that possible.
It's a bizarre equation.
Fri, 2009-06-19 02:40
#98
There are bodies ready to be exhumed all over the former Soviet Union, and not all of them are victims of the Nazis.
In fact, there are still thousands of skeletal remains scattered around a ten or 15 mile radius around Stalin-Volgagrad and were never buried. Grass didnt grow for over a year after the battles at Stalingrad. Some soliders on both sides went mad because of the barbarism they witnessed first-hand. Meltwater from spring thaw ran pink with blood from the corpses into the next year after.
Fri, 2009-06-19 03:10
#99
Cueball
What wild speculations? Its a matter of public record that the NKVD massacred Polish Prisoners of war in the Katyn forest, and then pretended it was a German crime.
Yes, several thousand Polish military officers and soldiers were murdered in the Katyn forest massacre. Happy? Can we put away the straw man arg now and get back to discussing Nazi war crimes in Ukraine ie. the topic of dicussion, ya frig?
25,783 is not "several thousand". You are doing it again: downplaying. That is 1/3rd of what Dubois sites as the figure of Poles and Polish Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the opening phase of the German ethnic cleansing program that began in Poland in October 1939, according to your source.
Fri, 2009-06-19 03:32
#100
So tell us, herr Cuebbels, would you like someone to revise the thread title and topic so we can discuss your favourite parts of the war that took place not in Ukraine but Poland? All you had to do was ask. We're already nearing post#100 I'm just thankful you arent still on about how the nazis were shipping Romanian oil north over the Carpathian mountains as the crow flies to the Russian front. You must have laughed at yourself for that one eh,? Kinda like Homer Simpson does history. Doh! 
Fri, 2009-06-19 04:30
#101
Cueball
Why change the thread title, since the thread is about the continuation of a policy first devised by Heydrich and Himmler in 1938, as is attested to by Patrick Dubois the source you referenced in your OP, a policy that was first put into motion in October 1939 in Poland by the source you referenced in your OP. Or is it your intention that we should not read or use the source you referenced in your OP, or only choose to talk about the points from the source you referenced in your OP that suit the historical perspective you prefer, or perhaps you just want us to believe on face value what it is that you say the source you referenced in your OP, says?
How fickle is a thing such as an national boundary line to politics? Is it too much "historical revisionism" to note that a substantial part of the massacre of Jews (indeed Polish Jews) in "Ukraine" would have taken place in "Poland", if it had not been for certain "agreements" made two years prior, according to the source you referenced in your OP? Is it too tasteless to point out that a great many of the victims, were indeed Polish-Jews according to the source you referenced in your OP?
But lets not talk about Poland, in this thread about Holocaust in Ukraine!
And I am the historical revisionist?