Iranian Election Continued (Part 2)

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Sun, 2009-06-21 06:16

Catchfire

Iranian Election Continued (Part 2)

Twitter revolution a figment of the Western imagination

Quote:
"Where is my vote?" I am not sure where the votes of the disgruntled losers of the Iranian election are, but I doubt that they are in Twitter. Perhaps this view is mistaken, perhaps the way they recast their ballot is through Twitter, and one would think that the pretty young females with makeup and jewelry cast their real ballots when they held up signs in Tehran, in English, for foreign news photographers.

What is even less clear is whether they are saying anything much in Twitter. Some journalists think they see a "new stage in the evolution of social media," in the form of the "use of Twitter in Iran" (largely mistaking Twitter for Iran with in Iran), and even claim that "information is flooding out of the country - on Twitter" (see "Tweets from Tehran: The use of Twitter in Iran is a new stage in the evolution of social media," by Ashley Terry, Global News June 15, 2009). The question we should ask ourselves is: what information and what is the nature of this "flood"?

Personally, I have seen very little in the way of actual events being reported, and when they are, they are retweeted (repeated) hundreds of times over for almost an entire day. There is enormous volume, and little content. Hanson Hosein, director of digital media at the University of Washington, wrote "I'm having a hard time filtering through #iranelection, beyond the re-tweets and second-hand information passed around by Twitterers outside the country....We can't take [tweets] at face value. It can be quite dangerous. We should be doing as much fact-checking as possible." Michael Crowley also wrote, "One thing that really bothers me about these twitters and first-hand accounts posted on blogs is that there's no way to verify them; I've seen several that either seemed suspect or turned out to be false." Similarly, another blogger observed that, "If you, as an average news consumer, relied on Twitter you might believe all sorts of things had happened, which simply hadn't, running a high risk of being seriously misled about events on the ground. You might at best, have simply been confused. You probably wouldn't have thought Ahmadinejad enjoys much popular support at all"

[...]

Not only does Twitter allow Americans to engage in participant voyeurism, it allows them to create the "news" about Iran for Iranians themselves, and apparently making it up as they go along. Indeed, anyone can be an Iranian in Twitter, and in fact all are being encouraged to "become" Iranian as in this other vastly over-repeated tweet:

Quote:
RT help protect Iranian tweeters by changing your timezone to GMT+3:30 and location to Tehran

[...]

The problem as we see is that when everybody is in Iran, nobody is in Iran.

Link to previous thread, soon-to-be closed.

Thu, 2009-06-18 07:55

Ghislaine

[url=http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/17/2600571.htm] Robert Fisk in Iran: [/url]

[quote]

The long-standing Middle East correspondent for The Independent, Robert Fisk, is defying the government crackdown on foreign media reporting in Iran.
...
It was quite extraordinary because it looked as if the military authorities in Tehran have either taken a decision not to go on supporting the very brutal militia - which is always associated with the presidency here - or individual soldiers have made up their own mind that they're tired of being associated with the kind of brutality that left seven dead yesterday - buried, by the way secretly by the police - and indeed the seven or eight students who were killed on the university campus 24 hours earlier.
Quite a lot of policeman are beginning to smile towards the demonstrators of Mr Mousavi, who are insisting there must be a new election because Mr Ahmadinejad wasn't really elected. Quite an extraordinary scene.
There were a lot of stones thrown and quite a lot of bitter fighting, hand-to-hand but at the end of the day the special forces did keep them apart.
I haven't ever seen the Iranian security authorities behaving fairly before and it's quite impressive.

Certainly the authorities were very struck by the enormous number of people who turned out for Sunday's march ... from the Square of Revolution to the Square of Freedom.

...

I walked alongside that march the whole way and was stunned to find one million people at the end, it must have been one million at least.

...

I went to the earlier demonstration in the centre of the city, which was solely by Ahmadinejad's people, immensely boring, although I did notice one or two points where they were shouting 'death to the traitor'. They meant Mousavi.

You've got to realise that what's happening at the moment is that the actual authorities are losing control of what's happening on the streets and that's very dangerous and damaging to them.

It's interesting that the actual government newspapers reported at one point that Sunday's march was not provocative by the marchers. They carried a very powerful statement by the Chancellor of the Tehran University, condemning the police and Basij, who broke into university dormitories on Sunday night and killed seven students.

They've even carried reports of the seven dead after the march on Sunday ... almost as if, not to compromise but they're trying to get a little bit closer to the other side.

...

It's clearly an Islamic protest against specifically the personality, the manner, the language of Ahmadinejad. They absolutely despise him but they do not hate or dislike the Islamic republic that they live in.

Thu, 2009-06-18 08:22

thanks

Nima Maleki on rabble's blog has definitely been clear that the killings and abuses of protesters are horrific. this is where the focussed world of protests highlights problems. they become very clear.

there are two more articles at asia times this morning, as i've been directed there by NM writing on Escobar, and also by babblers.

the first is a very interesting article by Shahir Shahidsaless, that includes some discussion of $ and the oil issue;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF19Ak04.html

here's Escobar's item today, which includes a new helpful list of demands from the protesters ;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF19Ak04.html

It seems that the protesters are working very hard to get an honest electoral process, non-violence, and changes to their constitution through (hopefully) a process that will ultimately realize their goals. that is the door they want to keep open.

that is where the potential lies for something different than the current chains, or other chains.

Thu, 2009-06-18 08:52

thanks

and then i read part of the context, about the currency fights and possible deals between the US and China;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/KF18Cb04.html

and wonder with Canada's 'deals' with the US and possibly the EU, how we are going to navigate ourselves; 'none of the above' is my first choice- keep some independence. cultivate our own garden. and this means different things for different peoples and different sectors in this country.

but i'm going off topic.

Thu, 2009-06-18 11:31

NDPP

An excellent discussion of the situation in Iran by Reza Fiyouzat can be found at:

http://revolutionaryflowerpot.blogspot.com/2009/06/cant-keep-good-people...

"The people may have taken to the streets under the excuse of the election and may have been encouraged by the rhetoric of the 'reformist' camp in favor of some breathing room in the suffocating political and cultural atmosphere imposed on them, but they have forced the debate further...the people in short have moved beyond Mousavi and the reformists, but are still willing to go along with the tactics formulated by reformist leaders; for the moment.

"Most likely a heavy hand is just around the corner, trying on some spiked gloves. For the time being though, hundreds of thousands of people in Iran are opting not to 'bite the bullet' and move on, but to make a movement and even take bullets. A much more courageous stand that generates a lot more inspiration."

Thu, 2009-06-18 12:41

Cueball

Could use some of that action in this country. Then we could seperate out the "authoritarians" from the "democrats."

Thu, 2009-06-18 13:37

Ghislaine

[url=www.huffingtonpost.com] Huffpost [/url] has some great pictures up and is reporting that more than a million people are in the streets of Tehran protesting again today. There was a demonstration of mourning as well today for all of those killed while protesting, or while in their dorm rooms.

I think Catchfire's OP is totally off the mark. Yes, it is impossible to verify what is being posted on Twitter but that is the point. Foreign journalists are banned - although Robert Fisk is standing out in showing his courage and dedication to journalism. It is undeniable that the uncontrollable ways that the internet can be used have mattered a great deal in organizing these massive protests and telling the outside world what is going on. Independant reports like Fisk's are confirming a lot of it in terms of numbers, brutal violence by the government, etc.

I wonder if sanizadeh is joining in the protests and hope she/he (?) is able to provide more on-the-ground updates.

Fri, 2009-06-19 06:36

josh

supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, remained defiant today in the face of vote-rigging allegations as he condemned the protests that have rocked the country since last week's disputed elections.

Speaking at Friday prayers, Khamenei claimed that the high turnout at the elections showed how much the Iranian people supported the regime, and warned protesters to keep off the streets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/19/iran-elections-ayatollah-ali...

Fri, 2009-06-19 09:06

Sven

josh wrote:

Speaking at Friday prayers, Khamenei claimed that the high turnout at the elections showed how much the Iranian people supported the regime, and warned protesters to keep off the streets.

And, if the protests continue, the fascist thugs running that country will soon unleash violence.

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-06-19 10:22

#10

Ghislaine

They reported on CBC Radio this morning that the Revolutionary Guard is surrounding Tehran.

Fri, 2009-06-19 10:31

#11

Catchfire

Ghislaine, the point of the OP is that Twitter does nothing for Iranians, and everything for our benefit. Iranian protestors are being beaten, shot and killed, but if we tint our twitter profile green we're somehow taking part? Imagine the look on Iranian children's faces when they are told that a bunch of Canadian students with green avatars have changed their timezone to UTC +3:30 in solidarity. What comfort it must give them. If a million Iranians are marching in the street, how many do you think have iPhone with a twitter app installed and have the techno savvy to use IP proxies?

Here: Iranians, as always, can take care of themselves. They don't need a cheeky American startup retweeting the latest bullshit.

Fri, 2009-06-19 10:49

#12

Ghislaine

Well how would you have us take part? I believe in non-intervention and only supporting them with our voices. Changing one's twitter avatar green is obviously only symbolic, but we have no power whatsoever over their government - nor should we. There were protests in various cities across Canada as well. What does this do for the Iranians getting beaten and killed ? Nothing either - but it is symbolic support.

Fri, 2009-06-19 11:04

#13

remind

Wow, that is interesting Josh, as I heard on last night's news that he was softening and was having a meeting with dissident leader's on Saturday.

I agree cue!

Fri, 2009-06-19 12:06

#14

Sven

Ghislaine wrote:

Well how would you have us take part? I believe in non-intervention and only supporting them with our voices.

What do you [u]mean[/u] by "supporting them with our voices"?

IMO, the best way to "support" the opposition is with cash.

Yeah, okay. So that may sound cynical. But, if I were among those trying to overthrow the fascist thugocracy in Iran, "support" of "voices" from Canada wouldn't even hit my radar screen.

ETA: Isn't it somewhat akin to standing at the end of a dock watching someone drown saying, "I'm pullin' for ya!!" but actually [u]doing[/u] nothing?

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-06-19 14:25

#15

Catchfire

What is 'fascism', Sven?

And, more importantly, how have you evaded the fascist thugocracy that runs babble such that you still have a tagline?

Fri, 2009-06-19 14:31

#16

Sven

Catchfire wrote:

What is 'fascism', Sven?

How would you classify an iron-fisted, unelected, unimpeachable theocracy?

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-06-19 14:32

#17

Catchfire

I guess I would call it an authoritarian theocracy. But you didn't answer my second, more pressing question.

Fri, 2009-06-19 14:36

#18

Sven

Catchfire wrote:

But you didn't answer my second, more pressing question.

I didn't know anything happened to taglines here. Has there been some ban of taglines that I'm not aware of?!?

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-06-19 14:38

#19

Catchfire

No, it's not that they're banned--it was my understanding that the software no longer allows us to have one. Yet somehow yours remains. Weird.

Fri, 2009-06-19 18:11

#20

Sven

Catchfire wrote:

No, it's not that they're banned--it was my understanding that the software no longer allows us to have one. Yet somehow yours remains. Weird.

Oh, I know what's going on. The software has a meter which assesses a babbler's political leanings. Anyone who is right-of-center is permitted (nay, required) to have a tagline (so, lest there be any doubt, another babbler can immediately identify right-of-center babblers).

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Fri, 2009-06-19 19:22

#21

howardbeale howardbeale's picture

Catchfire wrote:

If a million Iranians are marching in the street, how many do you think have iPhone with a twitter app installed and have the techno savvy to use IP proxies?

Well, in a highly educated country with a young, affluent, tech savvy urban populace..............

Fri, 2009-06-19 19:59

#22

Cueball

Sven wrote:

Ghislaine wrote:

Well how would you have us take part? I believe in non-intervention and only supporting them with our voices.

What do you [u]mean[/u] by "supporting them with our voices"?

IMO, the best way to "support" the opposition is with cash.

Yeah, okay. So that may sound cynical. But, if I were among those trying to overthrow the fascist thugocracy in Iran, "support" of "voices" from Canada wouldn't even hit my radar screen.

ETA: Isn't it somewhat akin to standing at the end of a dock watching someone drown saying, "I'm pullin' for ya!!" but actually [u]doing[/u] nothing?

No. More like looking up from your beer when you hear a fight break out, and then not jumping in on one side or the other, even though you know nothing about what is going on, who said what to who, or why, like some people who are just itching for an excuse.

Fri, 2009-06-19 20:30

#23

Stockholm

I'm in suspense to see what ends up happening in Iran, but I would be thrilled if there was a mass storming of the Bastille and that pig Khamanei was torn to pieces in public - no I take that back, I oppose the death penalty. I'd like to see a secular revolution in Iran that is devoted to social justice and democratic freedoms and if all the mullahs were put on trial for crimes against humanity and put into solitary confinement for life - preferably with a TV that just endlessly shows gay pride marches from around the world.

Of course I don't expect that to happen, but its a fun fantasy - kinda like thinking that the Berlin Wall would be torn down or that there would be majority rule in South Africa.

Sat, 2009-06-20 00:10

#24

NDPP

The Stolen Elections Hoax

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22868.htm

Sat, 2009-06-20 01:09

#25

Sven

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

The Stolen Elections Hoax

I'm not sure it makes a whole helluva lot of difference if the presidential election in Iran was legit or not -- not when the real leaders of the country are unelected and unimpeachable theocrats.

_______________________________________

[b]Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!![/b]

Sat, 2009-06-20 01:20

#26

thanks

i read the speech of Khameini that NM had linked on his blog. it was an interesting speech and i don't think can be easily summarized.

there are obviously many dynamics going on, which are quite beyond our ability an ocean away as non-Iranians to fully grasp, in terms of nuance and language, esp. via English tweets.

NM also posted items indicating that Khameini may have got to power in questionable ways himself originally, but still there were questions which K. raised in his speech which have stuck with me.

1) do we know who actually killed the students in their dorm? these were students not in the rally. they were described by 'witnesses' as 'paramilitaries', but apparently paramilitaries took to wearing ski masks. and some who beat up students in the rallies were dressed in plainclothes. then there are the army members. often we find out long after atrocities take place that different people actually committed them than was originally thought. the beating up of the dorm students actually reminds of some of the protests i've been to. in Quebec City, there were some who threw rocks but they were not arrested, rather allowed to continue their behaviour by police. instead, bystanders were arrested. put that together with the fact that in Montebello it was police who were dressed up as protesters doing aggression. sometimes you don't really know who is who at events, and instigations of various kinds are set up, with targetted outcomes. its often very difficult to know what is going on in front of your face at a protest, how much more difficult to assess something on the other side of the world.

this being separate from the behaviour of uniformed police on other occasions, but much has been made of the dorm attack.

2) K. was open in his speech to looking again at the election, but through legal means. he just didn't think a precedent should be set with street fights determining outcomes. he said several times that the turnout of 40 million people - 85% of the population - should be considered seriously. he wondered how 'vote rigging' could occur, but seemed to imply that legal challenges and routes should be pursued if people want to re-examine the process. it is a question which babblers have looked at before- the role of street protest vs. legal challenges of elections.

anyway, i feel uncomfortable talking much about the situation at all because i'm not a member of the Iranian community. I'm not even remotely familiar with background on the people involved.

i am glad that there is coverage here at rabble.

Sat, 2009-06-20 08:39

#27

sanizadeh

Ghislaine wrote:

I wonder if sanizadeh is joining in the protests and hope she/he (?) is able to provide more on-the-ground updates.

With pleasure. Just came back to Canada yesterday. I cannot claim I have all the information and updates you may need, as most tools of communication was largely shut down or slowed down there. So my information are limited to what I saw or heard from others.

A few points:

1) Twitter: only used to send the information out, but it is not a common method of communication in Iran, and it is filtered any way. Those who access it probably use proxies. This is mostly a cell phone revolution rather than a twitter revolution. SMS service is then since a week ago. Cell phone and Internet system is slow, and the TV channels show old comedies or interview suporters of the regime.

2) I can only describe the situation in Iran as reminiscent of the 1979 Iranian revolution, with the same widespread support and means. Though whether it would have the same results, depends on the government reaction. Mousavi has balls; he was personally walking with people in most of the protests in Tehran, something Khatami never did ten years ago. But this regime is no shah, and has the experience from 1979.

3) Protests are real large scale; had never seen anything like that since 1979. Protestors are very creative. In one protest in Tehran everyone was walking in absolute silence for an hour or so. I read some people question the grassroot nature of the protests and are looking for "organizations" behind it; no need for that. In Iran we are used to grassroot mobilization; the revolutionary regime trained us for it for 30 years, largely for their own rallies. Now it is used against themProtests are peaceful in Tehran, so if Stokholm is waiting for a Bastille attack he is going to be disappointed. We had a violent revolution 30 years ago; it did not get us anywhere. Now we are trying different methods. Most of the violence comes from small groups of paramilitary supporters of the government (e.g. attacks on Tehran, Isfahan and Shiraz Universities and some attacks on apartment buildings where people were chanting against the government); though the police tries to contain them.

4) One novel characteristic of the protests this time is that it is not limited to one city. There has been mass rallies in most big cities across the country. I am still looking for the 64% who supposedly voted for Ahmadinejad. Even in rural areas I went to (in Caspian sea region) I could not find much support for Ahmadinejad (except the poor neighborhoods of Tehran). I actually think his support comes more from poor religious urban areas than rural areas, farmers and villagers who have been hit hard by his economic mismanagement.

5) As you can imagine, I find reports by western news agencies as so simplistic that is almost unbearable. This is not about moderate vs. hardline, western-backed vs. western opposed, or even entirely about this specific election. The problem with vote has merely become a vehicle to channel the anger against this regime. This is about giving the regime one more chance to change itself, with leaders from within regime pushing for change. If this attempt fails, the next one may be a lot more violent.

And no, the US has no horse in this election. This is an entirely "made in Iran" movement. Where it leads, I don't know. But honestly once more I feel proud of the bravery and maturity of my people.

Sat, 2009-06-20 08:50

#28

sanizadeh

thanks wrote:

I read the speech of Khameini that NM had linked on his blog. it was an interesting speech and i don't think can be easily summarized.

Khamenei could have delivered his speech in one of the two ways: 1) A harsh condemnation of the protests, and askingthe loyal paramilitary forces (Bassij) to pour into the streets and "save the country", as he did in 1999 against students protests. or 2) A middle of the ground speech to try to satisfy all sides. He did the latter.

One thing to note is that even though the constitution gives Khamenei ultimate power, he himself is an extremely weak character. He lacks the charisma and credentials (and bravery) of his predecessor Khomeini. His election in 1989 raised eyebrows. Iranian politics is also a web of complicated power centers. Iran is not a simple authoritarian society. Now on one hand Khamenei has to support his own loyal troops while at the same time keep Ahmadinejad's ambitions (whose supporters view him even above Khamenei) in check, and on the other hand try not to alienate other powerful figures who brought him to power in the first place. In addition to all that, he is trying to bring Mousavi back into this web of politics to avoid making him a popular grassroot leader that could topple him. So far Mousavi has not backed down. But we will see what will happen.

The protests may calm down for a day or two, then the ball will be in Mousavi's court. If he decide to push further and address deeper isues than the election, he can mobilize the people again but he will risk his own life. If he just settles down with the official "legal channels", he will join the other reformist politicians in the dustbin of history.

Sat, 2009-06-20 08:58

#29

josh

Thanks for the update, sanizadeh. It's far more informative than all the blabbering and speculation in the traditional media.

Sat, 2009-06-20 12:44

#30

Stockholm

From what little information we can get a hold of - it sounds like Khamenei is committing genocide against the Iranian people today.

Sat, 2009-06-20 13:31

#31

josh

Genocide, Gracie? A ways to go until we get to that point. Brutality and repression is more like it.

Sat, 2009-06-20 13:41

#32

Stockholm

I'd like to see Iranian women throwing the veils that the religious thugs force them to wear into a bonfire. I read an interesting article recently about the religious police in Iran and the author noted that the men who are religious police are almost invariable very, very UGLY. Its like they found a bunch of losers and social rejects who could never get a date if their lives depended on it, gave them guns and said "here you go, now you can humiliate all the people who you normally feel inferior to"

Sat, 2009-06-20 15:23

#33

Doug

That is kind of the impression I get of the Basiji too. It's like someone found all the tough-guy teenagers and cranky older men, gave them police batons and told them to go have fun.

Anyway...something a bit more serious and something where we can do something to help. Various embassies in Tehran are now offering basic medical assistance and a safe place to recover for injured protesters since injured people going to hospitals are being disappeared. Canada is not using our embassy in this way yet. Another fine decision of Canada's New Government.

Sat, 2009-06-20 15:58

#34

Cueball

Stockholm wrote:

I'd like to see Iranian women throwing the veils that the religious thugs force them to wear into a bonfire. I read an interesting article recently about the religious police in Iran and the author noted that the men who are religious police are almost invariable very, very UGLY. Its like they found a bunch of losers and social rejects who could never get a date if their lives depended on it, gave them guns and said "here you go, now you can humiliate all the people who you normally feel inferior to"

Typical of you to define how exactly Iranian women should express their rights Stockybaba. Personally, I would like Iranian women to do what they like. Can you say: "paternalistic"? Nice also that your political analysis then moves into subjective human aeshetics of who is ugly and who is not.

I am reminded of the scene in Arthur Koestler's "Arrival and Departure", where the German Nazi ambassdor in Spain meets an exiled communist at a diplomatic party and then comments: "All your women look like are rebelling against a society that refused to ask them to dance."

It's all well and fine for you to recommend that people rebel against the repressive aspects of their own social conditioning, culture and prohibitionist laws, but while you are at it maybe you could mind your own.

Sat, 2009-06-20 16:35

#35

Stockholm

iranian woman are free to do as they please, just as I am free to express what I would like to see happen. You certainly don't hesitate to pontificate about what you think should happen in many countries outside of Canada.

So are you still a fan of Ayatollah Khamanei? Is he part of your pantheon of heros alongside Che Guevara and Trotsky?

Sat, 2009-06-20 16:57

#36

Stockholm

There are no women in the religious police in Iran - its all thuggish sadistic men that are the Iranian equivalent of storm troopers in Nazi Germany. Their idea of a fun day is humiliating and beating up women (and then probably fucking each other)

You haven't answered my question about whether you are still a supporter of the ayatollah? Will you be crestfallen if the Iranian people rise up and depose the dictatorship and through all the mullahs in jail for crimes against humanity? Will you need a shoulder to cry on if and when that happens?

Sat, 2009-06-20 16:57

#37

Cueball

What a bunch of Red Herrings. I have never said anything nice about Trotsky on this site ever. In fact, the record here would show that I have said repeatedly that I have seen no evidence that he would have been much different than Stalin, had he won the leadership struggle.

But that is you: preconceptions, assumptions, prejudice, stereotyped fantasies made out of whole cloth, ad hominem smears, wrapped up in pre-teen schoolyard philosophy.

But back on the theme you began. What about women in Iranian religious police. Are they ugly too? Should they also throw their veils into the bonfire, or would their unappealing visage be too much for your eyes?

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:04

#38

Fidel

Stockholm wrote:
So are you still a fan of Ayatollah Khamanei?

Well I'm not. But the Reaganauts were pretty cozy with the Ayatollah with negotiating a timely release of American hostages. Raygun and Maggie ok'd the sale of all manner of weapons to Saddam and the Ayatollah in the 1980s and passed proceeds to the Contras in waging a covert war on a tiny nation of peasants in Latin America then.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:08

#39

Cueball

You really think these "when did you stop beating your wife interogations wash with anyone"?

I just don't happen to think it is my particular station in the world to tell Iranians how to live. You, someone with a very typical western elitist orientalist mindset, believe you can tell anyone how it is they should live, by devine right, in the light of our blessed superiority. I have consistently stood for one thing, and that is that the Iranian people have the right to self-determination, free of outside influence, that includes the rights of women to define their own struggle, in their own culture for their own rights, in terms they set for themselves.

You seem to think women will only be free in Iran when they are back to wearing gobs of lipstick and miniskirts.

As for the various ad hoc unofficial militias. There are most definitely women who have simillar unofficial volunteer "militia" who act to enfore the religious prohibition of the country. And indeed even official police forces:

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:16

#40

Fidel

They can have any political setup they want so long as it prevents an outbreak of secular socialism or Pan-Arab nationalism in Iran and other countries where CIA hawks and Zbignewski have been the guiding hand for millions of people struggling for democracy.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:19

#41

Stockholm

I believe in CHOICE. If some women in Iran want to dress that that rather scary looking phalanx in the picture above - all the more power to them. But if other women CHOOSE to wear lipstick and mini-skirts - that is their choice as well. All I want is for people to have the freedom to dress as they please.

Right now, we have no way of knowing what Iranian women want because they don't live in a democracy and their civil rights are drastically curtailed. We don't know much about what men in Iran want either for the same reason.

and I'm sorry call it "western superiority" if you want but I find various laws in Iran to be evil crimes against humanity - period - these include death penalties for homosexuality, death penalties for adultery, restrictions on attire, having fascist police pistol whipping and humiliating people for whatever reason they want. We can't just throw up our hands at every loathsome crime against huminity in the world by saying "who am I to judge their culture". If we took that attitude we could say that we had no right to criticise Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge since maybe killing one third of the population of his own country was just an innocent manifestation of Khmer culture the we simply don't understand.

I am not Iranian and I don't live in Iran, but I am a citizen of the planet earth and so are the people of Iran and I have as much right to express an OPINION about what's going on there as anyone else.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:27

#42

Cueball

Stockholm wrote:

There are no women in the religious police in Iran - its all thuggish sadistic men that are the Iranian equivalent of storm troopers in Nazi Germany. Their idea of a fun day is humiliating and beating up women (and then probably fucking each other)

Women police breaking up women's rights demo in Tehran.

Now that we have established that you have absolutely no shame in dispensing your own ignorance and wildly prejudiced and inaccurate views on the world, and Iran, perhaps you will let people here continue with a serious discussion of the issues based on the facts, instead of using it as a forum for you wild SM prison sex fantasies.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:28

#43

Stockholm

we don't know if these are regular police as opposed to "religious" police. I suspect that there is some sort of women's auxilary to the regular police to deal with the fact that men aren't allowed to touch women so someone has to deal with female criminals. Anyways, its not exactloy news that some women can be fascist enablers as well. If the Nazis could have Ilse Koch - then I guess the mullahs probably have some sadistic women who do a share of the dirty work as well.

So are you still a supporter of the Ayatollah (or maybe we should call him the "Shah" since he's every bit as despotic).?

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:33

#44

Cueball

Stockholm wrote:

we don't know if these are regular police as opposed to "religious" police. I suspect that there is some sort of women's auxilary to the regular police to deal with the fact that men aren't allowed to touch women so someone has to deal with female criminals.

Gee. You do have a brain. Actually we do know that their are women's auxilliary forces simillar to the male religious police, for exactly the reason you have outlined. Why? Because it is a fact.

But that is ok, ignorance is merely not knowing what you are talking about. What is amazing is that you pretend that you do.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:35

#45

Stockholm

I see you're going to great length to avoid stating whether you support the Ayatollah. I guess I will take the non-response as a YES.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:44

#46

Fidel

Stockholm wrote:

I see you're going to great length to avoid stating whether you support the Ayatollah. I guess I will take the non-response as a YES.

Okay, youve outed me. I am a secret admirer of the Ayatollah and all the US meddling that's occurred in that country's political affairs since Mossadegh. And Clintonites and pragmatic centrists like myself were secret supporters of Izetbegovic-Fedayeen-CIA's radicalization of Bosnia in the 90's. Charade I am I am.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:46

#47

Cueball

Failure to denounce as a operative principle of justice in order to establish disloyalty or political allieciance is a notable quality of Stalinism. I guess you and they don't really have much between you at all.

But to gratify your interest, I will answer it this way: If I were Iranian, I would probably prefer him over a regieme installed by people who know as little about Iran as you do.

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:48

#48

Stockholm

Its amazing how some people have to contort themselves to avoid saying ANYTHING critical about the fascist regime in Iran. Oh well, I guess if the shoe fits...

Sat, 2009-06-20 17:51

#49

Fidel

I agree. The women are free in Iran. They could wear lipstick and jeans if they wanted to, just like the women in Afghanistan did for a while in the 1960's to the 80's before the totally fabulous CIA-Saudi makeover of that country.

Sat, 2009-06-20 18:01

#50

thanks

perhaps there are links on the blog i've missed, but what are the women's groups in Iran saying about events?

Sat, 2009-06-20 19:36

#51

Doug

Fidel wrote:
They can have any political setup they want so long as it prevents an outbreak of secular socialism or Pan-Arab nationalism in Iran and other countries where CIA hawks and Zbignewski have been the guiding hand for millions of people struggling for democracy.

Pan-Arab nationalism wouldn't really work out too well in Iran seeing as most of its people aren't Arab.

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