I make a post in the previous thread and check back and check back and no further posts and check back now and it is closed. So commenting on previous before dealing with part III. Thanks for all the good articles concerning 1979 and the present!
Vote in 50 cities surpass the 100% mark of people eligible to vote in the city - and it isn't considered a problem!
Cueball: Despite our best intentions, yours and mine, in the middle of fairly serious political turmoil in Iran we are ineed talking about the relationship between women's rights and ladies underwear. How did that happen?
About 70% of the Iranian population is under the age of 30 yet the people who make the rules are not only out of touch with their concerns and reality but many insist on remaining oblivious to it. Why underwear? Because it captures the double life that many of the under 30s were leading - conformity on the surface but not below the surface. Why else wear the usually uncomfortable stuff otherwise! I am blind to the exact concerns because all we got were hints, but I think that these protests represent a coming out of the closet so to speak - a bringing of the indoor out doors. That video you showed reminded me of why girls should not fight in tube tops - the traditional lady (which seemed older than the "modern" one) had to fear being uncovered in a fight.
Relatedly, ever notice the kind of Polish music that gets played in Canada (ie Folklorama) and the kind of music you actually hear in Poland (and other countries)? Sort of potentially throws a bit of water on the idea that the difference between the protesters and the establishment in Iran is that the protesters worship the west.
RE Ahmadinejad: he is easy to hate in the west because of his views, not so much on Zionism (as the article states) but on the holocaust and homosexuality denial - and, like even Canada, he scored political points by dissing Bush. It is a bit ironic that the social conservatives are happy to see him opposed because of his dissing of Bush, even though they are closer to being on his side of the fight than on the side of the protesters. Probably the best way of looking at Ahmadinejad is that he was a puppet that the hardliners figured that they could control moreso than could the electorate - that they used him to sell their snake oil.
The clerics seem to be debating how best to determine their own survival - whether they should fight to hold onto what they have or whether their survival requires them to mutate and get behind this change rather than oppose it - whether their fate is a choice between what happened to the Russian monarchy or the British. The clerics replaced the monarchy.
RE: "Visiting Iran last year to cover parliamentary elections, I discovered a country utterly at odds with most of its depictions..." -
Which leads me to wonder whether the debate should be framed between preservation and stagnation. I remember hearing that only dead languages do not change - no words are added and no word changes its meaning. Good article btw.
RE Fidel - I tend to consider relevance a cheap way to win an argument - by considering all one's opponent's points irrelevant - so never take that tangency/ADHD argument seriously (even if it is a bit racist against the intellectually hyperactive). Everyone has a different idea what is relevant and misunderstanding should not be allowed to cause hard feelings.
What is happening in Iran is both unique and similar to other conflicts. The very act of showing up again and again even though one faces death reminds me of the Ghandi strategy of peaceful protest. However, what they are fighting against is not something as blatantly foreign. The comparison between the Quiet Revolution in Quebec seems relevant since religion is being used to control the population politically as well as spiritually and there is the Dupleeses type corruption. And, if history serves us a lesson, the protestors are united in temporary cohesion that will dissipate with victory:
"It had become increasingly apparent that the loyalty that existed among women when we were working for the vote has gone. Then, women could not be induced to slander each other. Now we can, easily - and the reason is not hard to see. In the struggle for the vote, all women stood to gain - and all therefore had an equal stake in the effort." - Nellie McClung, A Harvest Yet to Reap
RE: "I am saying that morality codes exist in all societies" -
So you are arguing against the Western sense of moral superiority, Cueball, by pointing out that we are not much better than they are as far as the treatment of women? If so, then are you arguing about whether the protest is about Iranians wanting to be more like us? I heard that the Iranian establishment is trying to label the "terrorisists" as a "pro-western" movement in an attempt to discredit them. If so, what we see as flattering (ie them wanting to be more like us) is not the view of the protester but anti-protester propaganda. If one takes the "flattery" argument away, then what are the protesters rejecting and embracing?
That said, there is a bit of a difference between the liberties police take and what they are legally allowed to do in both countries - and how marginalized the victims are - prostitutes are among the most marginalized, abused and exploited women in Canada, Iran and everywhere. At least the officer got fired for the DWI beating - the argument of not knowing what happened after the tape was turned off was BS - before it was turned off her face was normal. And don't get offended - if someone resorts to name calling they either are losing an argument or are under the impression that you started if first. If it is the former be flatterered and if it is the latter then you didn't make the point you were trying to make.
RE Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, - "He too needs to heed public opinion, he too needs to compromise, he too is operating within a system that includes religious and political adversaries. In short, it was not the son of God who spoke on Friday, but a politician who needs to preserve his system of rule as well as his own legitimacy."
Seems like the Emperor's new clothes are not the fashion hit they used to be - so he has decided to switch tailors. What is known that "religion" can no longer be used to keep people in line politically - because he is just a man (and now he knows it too).
RE In Canada: - "3.We have some MPs who try and pass laws to hold the police to account when these things occur."
Adam T - are you assuming that there is no one in Iranian government trying to change things? Are you assuming that everyone in their version of parliament walks lock step with the president (I don't really think you do, though it sounded like it in the above quote)? That is what I like about Avi Lewis's coverage for Aljazeera, he dispels the myth that everyone in the US thinks alike - even in government. The NDP have been trying to pass laws to protect various marginalized groups - how much has Harper been listening? Yeah, it is not as bad here as there - but there is still a difference between trying and succeeding - just ask Malialai Joya in Afghanistan. Your article shows that the women's movement is making some gains in Iran despite the government attempts to shut them down and shut them up. Stopping proposed legislation is a victory.
Your Clinton article was good.
