Coup d'etat in Honduras (continued)

101 posts / 0 new

Topic locked

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:02

Hoodeet

Do the coup apologists and the doubters get it, finally?

1. Zelaya had planned a CONSULTATION, NOT a referendum, last Sunday, based on 400,000 signatures gathered. The law was not violated.

2. Cuban exile friend of terrorist Posada Carriles was one of the promoters of the coup; he had given shelter to Posada Carriles when he managed to get out of Panama while awaiting extradition to Venezuela, from where he'd fled prison.

3. Zelaya was ousted because he stood up to the extreme right and to the business sector. One of his first meetings when he was elected was with a delegation of top businessmen, who handed him a list of public utilities he was to privatize. He refused. Then he joined Petrocaribe and ALBA and raised the wretched minimum wage. All that got the ball rolling with the opposition.

4. The US knew of the coup days before it took place. According to reliable sources, the white house and the state dept. called the US base and the embassy in Honduras to tell them not to support the coup and to be quiet, while the head of Southcom spoke with the plotters and supported the coup.

5. Cartoonist Allan McDonald was arrested and held in a hotel room with no food with his 3-year old daughter for 24 hours. When he finally returned home he found that the army had destroyed and burned all his drawings and his materials. Journalists have been beaten and radio and tv stations intervened. The ambassadors of Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba were roughed up as they tried to protect and grant asylum to foreign minister Patricia Rodas as the army arrived to detain her.

6. Now, at least two people are confirmed dead at the airport, including a 16-year old boy, shot in cold blood. We do not know how many are wounded, or how seriously. The Red Cross can barely cope.

7. This coup was a test for the US and the right-wing, to roll back the popular movements and defeat popular governments throughout Latin America. That is why all Latin American nations have joined in support of Zelaya.

8. How about the de facto foreign minister dismissing Pres. Obama as a "negrito que no sabe nada de nada" (a know-nothing black boy).

The airplane has not landed as I write this, but the airport is totally militarized with numerous trucks arriving of soldiers.

So, if you're still inclined to justify or rationalize this criminal coup in any way, please stay away from rabble and other progressive sites.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:07

#53

thanks

thanks for the info Hoodeet.

CBC English radio at 6 had an 'independent journalist in Honduras' report that there were tens of thousands of pro-Zelaya protesters who were at the airport, with army 'firing shots in the air'.

the news host said one person had died.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:08

#54

Hoodeet

thanks wrote:

Have any MPs said anything about this?

Hoodeet (JW)

Once and for all: the consultation was not about Zelaya seeking re-election. Even if the consultation had resulted in support for a referendum in November, it would have been for a CONSTITUTIONAL ASSEMBLY to be held some time in the next couple of years. Zelaya's term would end in January 2010 in any case, so I wish people would stop repeating that mischievous misinformation.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:12

#55

Hoodeet

thanks wrote:

thanks for the info Hoodeet.

CBC English radio at 6 had an 'independent journalist in Honduras' report that there were tens of thousands of pro-Zelaya protesters who were at the airport, with army 'firing shots in the air'.

the news host said one person had died.

Hoodeet (JW) Well, the soldiers are in combat position with rifles with scopes. They're more like sharpshooters. Two dead, possibly more.

NO armed people. Not even a burning tire. It's a cowardly massacre.

The airport is locked down.

This is what the constitutional democracies of the oligarchies of the world look like.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:29

#56

NorthReport

Two dead - where's Zelaya?

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:32

#57

N.Beltov

thanks wrote:
... so is this Obama's 'soft power' that we're going along with??

Hell, yea. In place of barefaced support for violence we have ... two-faced support for violence. The official response of the US regime is to run its right index finger STERNLY across its left index finger in a show of unmitigated concern.

That's progress, right?

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:33

#58

thanks

"Once and for all: the consultation was not about Zelaya seeking re-election."

Hoodeet, i was asking in your quote of me at #53 if any Canadian MPs had made any statements about the situation.

In any case, i'm glad you've taken the opportunity to clarify misconceptions at the BBC that the coup was about term extensions.

You've said the constituent process would take years and that as Zelaya's term is up in 2010 in any case, so the term extension complaint of the coup leaders is a lie. Also that the SOA-trained army special forces are massacring civilians in a cowardly way, and that journalists have been arrested etc.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:40

#59

N.Beltov

It's not about Zelaya by David L. Wilson is a good backgrounder read.

Quote:
Not many people in the United States are aware that over the past few decades Hondurans have created, under very adverse circumstances, a vibrant grassroots movement: campesino organizations like Vía Campesina; three labor confederations, often competing, sometimes cooperating; a strong indigenous movement; Afro-Honduran groups like the Honduran Black Fraternal Organization (OFRANEH);human rights monitoring groups like the Committee of Relatives of Disappeared Detainees in Honduras (COFADEH); environmental groups; community radio stations; an anti-militarization movement; women's groups; student groups; and a nascent LGBT movement.

Early this year, Honduran teachers went on strike for back pay and held a sit-in at the education ministry. In February the Civic Council of Grassroots and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras (COPINH) organized a 12-day mobilization to protest the destruction of forests. In April hundreds of indigenous Chortí blocked access to the Copán archeological park, probably Honduras' most important ancient Mayan site, to press demands for land.

None of these were one-time protests -- they continued long-term struggles, some going back for years. And these same groups, which frequently support each other and coordinate their actions, are the ones that have confronted the coup and the subsequent repression with massive and spirited protests throughout the country.

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:40

#60

NorthReport

Llive shot of the airport - where's Zelaya? CBC suggested he might be rerouting but......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7926658.stm

Sun, 2009-07-05 19:46

#61

thanks

in response to #57;

It is Not progress. It's BS.

BS + murder + lies + torture school

same old. guess some people thought we might get past that in this millenium. you know, those who are into 'evolution of the consciousness' and crap like that.

___

the info about groups working together on useful changes IS progress, on the other hand.

Sun, 2009-07-05 20:32

#62

Hoodeet

NorthReport wrote:

Llive shot of the airport - where's Zelaya? CBC suggested he might be rerouting but......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7926658.stm

Hoodeet (JW)

Zelaya and D'Escoto have landed in Managua. Is now going on to meet with the OAS group (Insulza, Fernandez-Kirchner, Correa, Lugo) in San Salvador. Might meet or teleconference on next move. Zelaya has pledged to enter Honduras if not tomorrow, then Tuesday or Wednesday, by any means he can.

Call going out tonight to OAS to take stronger action - but Canada and the US will not doubt once more urge patience and reject sanctions.

Also to the UN. On Telesur interview a few minutes ago Zelaya from his plane said that after this brutal attack on unarmed civilians the international community has to take a position.

Cannon-Harper, Ignatieff, and the rest have to be pressured hard, but I doubt they care about the little brown people down there. Our support for the Canadian mining companies in Honduras and our commitment to "free trade" and to our relationship with the US, all trump participatory democracies in what should have remained banana republics and not become so inconvenient.

Sun, 2009-07-05 20:50

#63

Cueball

Yes. No doubt Ignatief, Harper and co. will stay the course or at least stay silent in the face of tyrrany. Speaking of which did anyone read the barnstormer statement by Jack Layton on the situation in Honduras. I know it must be on their web site somewhere, but I was unable to find a link? Anyone got one?

It has been a week since the coup. One notes that it took less time for the NDP to produce one on the situation on Iran.

Sun, 2009-07-05 21:07

#64

NorthReport

Curfew now in effect, three hours earlier than usual.

Sun, 2009-07-05 21:15

#65

Cueball

Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.

Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.

Sun, 2009-07-05 21:31

#66

thanks

"Call going out tonight to OAS to take stronger action - but Canada and the US will not doubt once more urge patience and reject sanctions.

"Also to the UN. On Telesur interview a few minutes ago Zelaya from his plane said that after this brutal attack on unarmed civilians the international community has to take a position."

sounds very much like Sri Lanka, and Peru, and Iraq, Afghanistan, the DRC, Burma; assault of civilians, theft of resources, and militarization to protect corporate mining, to be met with platitudes not sanctions.

Actions speak louder than words.

But some words about sanctions would be actually useful.

Sun, 2009-07-05 21:35

#67

NorthReport

US Media Slow to Get Honduras Breaking News

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/5/750314/-US-Media-Slow-to-Get-...

Mon, 2009-07-06 01:39

#68

NDPP

What Cowardly Honduras Coup Lost Today:

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/what-cowardly-honduras-coup-lo...

"here are some of the very significant realities that shifted today.."

Mon, 2009-07-06 02:34

#69

remind

Interesting last link NDPP, says it all.

And I hope those here who were coup positive rethink their faux pas.

Mon, 2009-07-06 02:41

#70

Cueball

It's funny you know, when you think of all that blood thirsty murder that was orchestrated by the US from Honduras in the 1980's to oust Daniel Ortega, that 20 years later he still ended up being president of the democracy he helped found. Weird really, considering the level of vilification that was leveled at him by past presidents of the USA. His presence at the OAS passes by without comment.

Mon, 2009-07-06 04:00

#71

Erik Redburn

Cueball wrote:

Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.

Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.

Yes its so unfair. One form of brutal tyranny is excused and another isn't.

Mon, 2009-07-06 08:25

#72

Hoodeet

Monday morning CBC news report from Honduras on the airport events was relatively accurate, except for the semantic twisting of reality: "clashes between demonstrators and the army". Clashes, indeed, between peaceful, unarmed men, women and children, and the highly weaponized, armoured troops and sharpshooters who attacked them.

Re. war against the media inside Honduras (bombings, assassination, military takeovers, journalists in hiding): today's democracynow.org has an exhaustive report from Andrés Quintero.

Re. keeping lifelines to the coup government: need to pressure Mexico not to send oil to replace Venezuela's shipments, now suspended.

Mon, 2009-07-06 12:30

#73

N.Beltov

Regarding Parliamentarians in English-speaking Canada:

1. Conservatives justify the coup.

2. Liberals circumambulate around the issue. Sternly, then run their right index finger over their left index finger.

3. The NDP has some statements about the war in Afghanistan, and Harper's failure to support ... streetcars.

See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.

However, all the news here is not bad. The Canadian Labour Congress, unlike the party that allegedly represents its members politically, actually has something to say. Apparently, solidarity has not been entirely forgotten ...

Quote:
The Canadian Labour Congress (CLC) condemns the overthrow of democracy by the military in Honduras and supports the call of the Organization of American States (OAS) for the immediate, safe and unconditional return of its democratically-elected constitutional president, Manuel Zelaya. The CLC urges Prime Minister Harper to add our nation's voice to the growing calls from governments around the world for the Honduran military and public institutions to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the Honduran constitution by ensuring President Zelaya's safe return to power.

The Honduran military kidnapped President Zelaya and forced him into exile in Costa Rica on the weekend. President Zelaya's plan to hold a non-binding national referendum on possible constitutional changes was opposed by the country's military and its elites and the Supreme Court had ruled it illegal. But President Zelaya's efforts enjoyed widespread support from broad sections of Honduran society, including the majority of its trade unions.

The CLC stands in solidarity with our sister unions in Honduras, and is concerned for the safety of trade union leaders, civil society leaders and protesters, as constitutional rights have been suspended, the media has been shut down, and arrest warrants have been issued for popular sector leaders. We call on the Canadian government to demand the de facto authorities of Honduras to respect the human rights of the country's citizens who are expressing their opposition to the military's coup d'état.

Some Honourable Canadians: Hear, hear!

I guess the Canadian labour movement still needs to retain some political independence, eh? Still, a solidarity campaign would be nice.

Mon, 2009-07-06 12:34

#74

Fidel

I remember Bob White saying that there wasnt a month go by that the CLC wasnt having to bail union activists from Mexican and other countries' prisons down there.

Mon, 2009-07-06 19:29

#75

N.Beltov

Yves Engler wrote:
Unlike the World Bank and others, Ottawa has not announced plans to suspend aid to Honduras, which is the largest recipient of Canadian assistance in Central America. Nor has Ottawa mentioned that it will exclude the Honduran military from its Military Training Assistance Programme.

Ottawa's hostility towards Zelaya is likely motivated by particular corporate interests and his support for the social transformation taking place across Latin America.

From 1996-2006 Canadian companies were the second-biggest investors in the Central American country. It is unlikely that Zelaya won brownie points from the large Canadian mining sector -- including Breakwater Resources, Yamana Gold and Goldcorp that are active in Honduras -- when he announced that no new mining concessions would be granted.

Likewise, Zelaya's move earlier this year to raise the minimum wage by 60 per cent could not have gone down well with the world's biggest blank T-shirt maker, Montréal-based Gildan. Employing thousands of Hondurans at low wages Gildan produces about half of its garments in the country.

Harper regime isolated ...

...but seems to be doing overtime ignoring human rights and acting as a transmission belt for corporate intere$t$. Yup.

Mon, 2009-07-06 19:48

#76

thanks

the statements by Kent prior to the coup, and the behaviour of Harper after, are beyond the pale.

i'm just left speechless.

had an interesting talk today with someone from a long-term farm family in our area. we covered a fair bit of ground, from trade and implications for finance, to this coup. actually we started with this coup, did the circle and came back round. it was heartening for me to see, again, that the younger generations of rural folk have no problem appreciating what's going on. an interesting comment made that was quite a number of people who formerly considered themselves PC voters were switching to NDP. Now only if the NDP would more accurately reflect ...the future. we might get there

Mon, 2009-07-06 20:20

#77

Fidel

N.Beltov wrote:
3. The NDP has some statements about the war in Afghanistan, and Harper's failure to support ... streetcars.

See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.

Last year the NDP did say that [url=http://archive.ndp.ca/page/6312]Canada must stop mining abuses in Honduras and other countries [/url] Instead the Harpers cut corporate welfare cheques to these environmental criminals and human rights abusers posing as transnational mining companies. And the Liberals must be of the same mind with supporting the Harpers some 79 times now with votes of confidence in parliament

Mon, 2009-07-06 20:44

#78

sanizadeh

Cueball wrote:

Guess the death squads will be out tonight. These deaths will occur attached to all manner of excuses from the Junta, and this narrative will be treated as worthy of credibility, and reported as such, meanwhile any such ridiculous excuses put about by the authorities in Iran will be dismissed as obviously fraudulent attempts to cover up the bloody footprints.

Guardian.UK will not start a list of the dead, disappeared and detained, trying to put the names to the faces of the victims.

You could have condemned the Honduras coup without dismissing what is going on in Iran. The hypocricy in your approach on this thread and what you post on the Iran thread is quite obvious. The killing of Iranian protesters are, in your view, justified police action and no excessive force, while here you are making one post after another about deaths that may happen in future. Is the Iranian blood somehow of a different color than other people? In the name of decency, please refrain from bringing Iran into the discussion about Honduras. Make your points on Iran on the Iranian thread so that we can respond. Let's not divert this thread from its main subject, the issue of the coup in Honduras.

Mon, 2009-07-06 20:53

#79

thanks

i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.

Mon, 2009-07-06 21:03

#80

Fidel

thanks wrote:

i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.

How many coups, assassinations, and dirty wars waged against desperately poor countries could the CIA and US military possibly be directly and indirectly responsible for?

Mon, 2009-07-06 21:35

#81

sanizadeh

thanks wrote:

i think Cueball is using the 'Chomsky method'- comparing how Empire treats those who obey differently from those who resist. the assumption is that the current Iranian leader is resisting US rule whereas the current Honduran pretender is obeying US rule.

I edit out my response so that this thread remains focused on Honduras. See you in the Iranian thread.

Mon, 2009-07-06 22:10

#82

Fidel

[url=http://mimundo-jamesrodriguez.blogspot.com/]Honduran army shoots and kills protesters[/url] July 6th

"It is estimated that at least 100,000 people marched towards Toncontin Airport to welcome "Mel".

Mon, 2009-07-06 22:26

#83

Erik Redburn

Double post*

Mon, 2009-07-06 22:27

#84

Erik Redburn

Beltov:

"Regarding Parliamentarians in English-speaking Canada:

1. Conservatives justify the coup.

2. Liberals circumambulate around the issue. Sternly, then run their right index finger over their left index finger.

3. The NDP has some statements about the war in Afghanistan, and Harper's failure to support ... streetcars.

See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil."

Nice. Let me give you a needed clue too, we 'parliamentarians' aren't the ones who pick and choose which form of imperialiosm is ok and which isn't, based on nothing apparently but which world power is still supposed to adhere to which ideological imperative. And we 'parliamentarians' (is that the neuvo left term BTW, for those who still believe in the right of "the people" to vote for their leaders?) don't necessarily support our own leaders, ones who "we" never voted for, just because we don't support others when they beat defenceless citizens for protesting electoral fraud or decide to invade neighbouring countries like say, Georgia, on the pretext of defending their oppressed minorties. Is this straw man baiting the only tool you guys have left? If it is then at least give it a rest now and then, let others have a say now and then without having to deal with all the usual insinuations and dialectic dichotomies. Its really rather obvious now but still a waste of everyone's time.

Mon, 2009-07-06 23:20

#85

N.Beltov

Good grief, Erik. I took special care to identify the position of all the parties in Parliament, from English Canada, and unless you're a Conservative supporter (which I doubt), I don't see why you should get your back up. The fact is, the Canadian labour movement's representatives managed some sort of expression of solidarity with thw Honduran workers. If the CLC can figure this stuff out, then so too can the party that you support, whatever party that is. Forgive me if I've overlooked the obvious (which party you support). I'm not about to apologize for critiquing any political party in Parliament and, in fact, the party that rightly claims more labour support than the other parties should, therefore, reciprocate in that support.

It's rather amusing, however, for you to drag in (a) imperialism in general, and (b) Georgia, and then claim that it's not you that's arguing from ideological imperatives but me.

Look, it's really simple. What's in the best interest of the workers, farmers, ordinary people? If you can assess this correctly, then you'll never go wrong. That's my view, anyway.

Tue, 2009-07-07 00:37

#86

Erik Redburn

Do you mean to say your comments weren't directed at NDPers in general? Ok, I'll accept that here but lets be frank, this "what about our own transgressions...?" line has been used repeatedly here to defect attention from other cases of state aggression against citizens, including some I've seen on Georgia/Kartvelia. If you agree with me here that the Russian government should also pull their tanks out of Georgia now then you'll not only have my full solidarity, agreement and support, I will also apologise. To clarify once again, I and most NDPers I know have never supported any action taken by any government directed against defenceless citizens, including that taken by the US, Britain and their faithful servant Canada -especially Canada. (I have also just sent a note out to Layton asking him to post a stronger public condemnation than what the Conservatives have. Let's see if he's responsive to his own citizenry) I feel like I'm under seige myself, at times.

Tue, 2009-07-07 02:21

#87

N.Beltov

Well, it isn't an NDP board. Neither is it an anti-NDP board. AFAIK, the only sacred cows here are the basic babble principles: no homophobia, racism, misogyny, nor anti-labour bigotry in the labour section, etc.. It's a place to argue, among other things, principles. As an NDPer, it would probably serve you well to distinguish criticism of the NDP from the left (like me) and criticism of the NDP from the right (fill in the blank). The ones on the left should be, ceteribus paribus, more friendly. Of course, there's always the possibility of someone pretending to be on the left, or on the left of the NDP, when they're not. Politics is a dirty sport, after all, and for those unwilling to defend their views directly then the indirect kind is to be preferred.

I'm reluctant, in any case, to engage in ideological horse-trading as you've outlined. If you think my position on the role of Russia in last summer's war in the Caucuses stinks, then no amount of "splitting the difference" is going to remedy my "stinky" position. We're not doing collective bargaining, eh? Frankly, I think I can defend my position (the Russian tanks are, in fact, long gone) in any case. Do your best to blow me out of the water. I can take it. Just find the right thread, OK?

To be perfectly blunt, it's my view that the NDP, like the other parties in Parliament, as a party, is an easy target on many, many foreign policy questions. It's a consensus among the more left-wing babblers, e.g., that the position of the Liberals and the NDP on Israel/Palestine is virtually indistinguishable, with the Conservatives slightly to the right of both of them. All three parties have a lousy position, and that finds reflection in the public statements, the silencing of NDPers that express contrary or different views, and so on.

Anyway, where was I? Oh, yea, the NDP as an easy target. To make another long story short, why should a socialist apologize, or take a single step backwards, when presented with an opportunity to show why a genuinely socialist position is superior to any position of the parties currently in our Parliament? Aren't I supposed to explain why, in my opinion, my views are better than those of the party you support? Good grief, man, buck up and throw some punches.

Tue, 2009-07-07 02:39

#88

Fidel

[url=http://www.guatemala-times.com/opinion/editorial/1136-honduras-coup-is-j... coup is just the tip of the iceberg, who is next?[/url] The Guatemala Times

Will we wake up to a coup in Guatemala and El Salvador soon? It is more than possible. If you turn on your radio or TV in Guatemala and you hear marimba music and nothing else, you will know.

Tue, 2009-07-07 03:36

#89

Erik Redburn

No its not horse trading Beltov, never said it was, and I agree its neither an NDp nor anti-NDp site, but I personally can't take double standards on the left regardless of what banal words Layton uses for our always banal scribes. I do however think the NDPs position is usually further to the left of the Liberals than they are to the Cons, even on foreign policy, but then thats part of this dialectical struggle too isn't it?

Speaking only for myself, criticising Layton, the NDP, or by extention NDPers in general for not taking a firmer stand against one form of imperialist agression, while refusing to take any stand ourselves against another is not good left-wise politics, even if one empire maybe somewhat better stocked militarily and happens to maintain better relationships with our own colonial elites. Undertstanding the ugly world of global politics isn't well served by looking only from our particular perspective.

Re Georgia, the tanks maybe gone but last I heard the occupation continues in parts and the division of ancient Kartvelia continues, while the no-longer Red Army remains nearby to keep the pressure on. Thanks for answering my question, even by not answering.

Tue, 2009-07-07 08:03

#90

thanks

just popping in here to mention addendum to my last note from the conversation mentioned -

many people out here are on dial up, if they have an internet connection at all. some still use the library for that.

websites that have all kinds of ipod/ etc/large files cannot be even entered on dial up, or it takes so long that people give up.

maybe rabble has got a different setup now but i know there was a time when i was on dialup that i couldn't access it, or other sites, at all.

just wondering if anyone here has ever tested this now, from a dialup access.

Wed, 2009-07-08 01:23

#91

NDPP

Honduras, Washington and Liberal-left Grasping at Straws:

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/21909

"Obama is implementing a US foreign policy that in some ways..or, I think in many ways--advances the interest of the American empire in a way the Republicans could only have dreamed of doing. What people I think misunderstand about Barack Obama is that this is a man who is a brilliant supporter of empire - who has figured out a way essentially to trick a lot of people into believing they're supporting radical change, when in effect what they're doing is supporting a radical expansion of the US empire. I think Obama is showing himself to be a master of misdirection - almost like a magician.."

A Coup is Not a Coup. A Not Coup is a Coup

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22995.htm

"This coup has just upped the ante for all involved. And geopolitically, the stakes are equally high"

Wed, 2009-07-08 02:19

#92

Fidel

Wed, 2009-07-08 06:28

#93

thanks

um, whatever you just did made it take even longer to get to babble active topics...

but what i was referring to in #90 was access to Rabble. i take it that you've found that initial access to the rabble website is fine now for dialup people. (i'm not on dialup, though i have a very lousy 'wireless' connection that actually connects to hydro wires down the line, so you'd have needed other input.)

anyway, back to subject at hand.

the articles linked at #91 look to be very useful from the quotes provided. will read.

Wed, 2009-07-08 07:16

#94

thanks

good articles, thanks.

the info clearinghouse one has lots of useful detail on how the coup plotters got away with it, paralleling here manipulation of small farmer's distrust, among other tactics.

the zmag article was a useful linking summary tying Obama's 'say one thing if everyone else is, but do another' approach, to the global economic crash.

notably on the latter, even a former IMF economist said, quoted in the zmag item,

"recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we're running out of time."

and Obama told the bankers who are getting bailouts at the expense of people and planet,

"My administration is the only thing between you [bankers] and the pitchforks"

___

the responsible action would be to allow natural consequences to follow banker bad behaviour and to set up instead fair economic systems for residents. Obama is doing neither. Just as he is not doing what needs to be done in the Honduran coup situation. As the infoclearinghouse item noted, Obama and Clinton's approach is to force an elected leader (Zelaya) to renegotiate policies in exile, 'over the barrel of a gun'.

the 'soft' approach is just slick, like oil.

Wed, 2009-07-08 23:22

#95

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Michael Parenti has [url=http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/08-3]7 good reasons[/url] to suspect George W. Obama is lying about US involvement in the coup.

Thu, 2009-07-09 00:21

#96

NDPP

Plan Merida, a renovated US plan for neutralizing dissidents under cover of narco war may be relevent to the Honduran crisis

Hemispheric Conference Against Militarization Says No to Merida Initiatives, US Military Bases (Oct 17, 2008)

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/5605

"Final Declaration of the La Esperanza, Intibuca, Honduras, Oct 3-6 2008

As the capitalist system enters perhaps its worst crisis in history, the world faces crises on many fronts: financial, energy, food, environmental, social and political. Militarization has increased and its effects become more violent in an attempt of the system to control spaces and markets and natural resources...

In our hemisphere, militarization takes many forms. In the broad sense, military, institutional and police violence are part of a continuous escalation of repression, occupation and looting of natural resources.."

Thu, 2009-07-09 01:16

#97

NDPP

Shame on Canada - Coup Supporter

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2009/07/09/ShameOnCanada/

Why have we sided with the Honduran military? Mining profits. "They crave gold like hungry swine," Uruguayan journalist Eduardo Galeano has written of multinational mining firms.

Once again we're satan's little helper...

Fri, 2009-07-10 01:21

#98

Fidel

[url=http://www.soaw.org/]Pro-Democracy Marches Continue in Honduras[/url]

If they are really concerned about teaching democracy, then why not close the US Army "School" of the Americas and send people from these piss-poor thirdworld capitalist countries to real schools?

Fri, 2009-07-10 18:32

#99

NDPP

Creative Coup Opponents? No, just another nazi cheerleader: Pinochet's Daughter Backs Coup

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/honduras-newspaper-impressed-d...

"they see the Pinochet coup of 36 years ago as a heroic act and long for the bad old days when they could simply stamp out democratic will by rounding up all dissidents into a stadium and assassinating more than 3,000 in a single week...it's another proof positive that they are trying to start that ball rolling all over again throughout the hemisphere."

Sat, 2009-07-11 09:30

#100

thanks

that tyee article at #96 is pretty clear, and it's disgusting that our Canada Pension Plan money is funding the mining barons that destroy the earth and its peoples.

mining for gold, mining for radioactive and other killer minerals, for fossil fuels...public money used to prop up death and destruction at home and afar.

Peter Kent and the rest of the mirage from the underworld have got to go. it's really getting to be just too much. and add to that Harper's behaviour as pointed out at rabble, worst carbon polluter in the world. And Iggy has been vying for the tar sands title too.

anyway,

i was also going to say that the term 'governance' is increasingly being used to actually mean the private governance of corporations and finance. Many papers and institutions that promote improved 'governance' are actually promoting public-private-partnership models, which in fact give the reins of that 'partnership' to the private sector. There's nothing remotely democratic about it. Actual resident and civilian participation in determining policy is being reduced to zero, through the kind of legal and regulatory re-jigging that is going on now.

Sat, 2009-07-11 09:38

#101

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Long thread — Continue [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/honduras-i-t...

Pages

Topic locked