"So don't hold your breath on relief for property."
not sure what you meant by that.
are you saying that corp taxes will be kept low, therefore residential taxes will ...stay where they are?
i thought the point of your bringing upthe CAlif. case was to say that it sets the stage for bankruptcy/ crash. that the downloading and promised reductions in property taxes empties the gov't coffers intentionally. thus leading to privatization of absolutely everything.
and i'm not sure that we here in Canada are obligated by CA's prop 13. sure the pressure is on, but that CA ballot summary legally prohibited raising of prop taxes. they are raised here all the time, simply by the market value formula (except when there's a housingmarket crash, theoretically.)
anyway, my head is full of drywall on the one hand, and how i'm going to get rid of the pernicious morning glory in the echinacea field on the other. please if you can summarize a bit your line of thinking here. much appreciated.
and i have to say that the utter stupidity of Harper and Biden and other 'leaders' posturing with nukes and coups all for private gain is really making me angry.
i have to, you know , breathe a bit, figure out how to deal with it better.
I'd rather be fighting pernicious morning glory out there in the echinacea myself, thanks.But maybe one should know the size of the area under attack before saying that?
My "point" about California is that the route they took. purely populist, led to a predictable inability to meet public needs...and got many others thinking that "lower taxes" means good government. And that is essentially all that Hudak is going to offer up. His comments to a CBC interviewer were circular, nonsensical and pure evasion. And the terribly obtuse, shallow, rehearsed chattering of the Harris mob again assaulted one's senses - a nightmare deja vu moment.
Hope your drywall isn't a Chinese product.
the 'lower taxes' mantra in Ontario and Canada parallels the mainstream media manipulation in Honduras. The distrust which small farmers have in policy-makers is used to push through policy which is even worse.
in Ontario, to get a decent tax policy we need to eliminate the market value assessment process for determining property taxes. Was it Harris that instituted that mechanism when the property tax collection was downloaded to municipalities?
A fair property tax system would reflect need vs. greed, that is, people's homes shouldn't be put at the mercy of the casino. Big Money bankers can play their devastating tricks in rigging and crashing, and pick up the pieces of other people's lives and shove them in their own back pockets after the next major bubble burst. It really makes me angry.
[breathe... glad i mentioned this the other day to my farm family friends, and they get it. just have to spread the word..]
taxes:
income taxes are income taxes. they can be made to be progressive. entitities which make profits, shareholders who make profits, are different than people who live on limited income for survival. these systems need to be made more fair.
i haven't thought through how income taxes intersect with 'property' taxes, it depends on how 'property' is defined. above i've used 'property' to mean 'real estate' ie) buildings and land. once you turn people's homes into a market commodity for tax purposes, that's where the high property taxes come from mainly. so i'm still wondering on what were property taxes based before Harris? what are the alternatives ?
That is simply wrong, Mr. Victor. The vast majority of people have their income taxes deducted at source, and corporations have to remit that money to the Government at least once a quarter or else they are in Big Trouble. The same goes for GST. In addition, if you are one of the lucky ones who mostly lives off of dividends and interest, you have to file and pay every quarter.
Yes, yes.
I was trying to distinguish one tax from another, "progressive" and otherwise, dear uncle John . (You remind me of an uncle on me old mum's side.)
We probably should have a separate thread on tax policy 
but in the meantime I think we need to totally reject and constantl;y laugh at the mantra of the right that : " there is only one taxpaxer". BS. There are a wide range of taxes - income tax, sales tax, corporate tax, property tax, excise tax. - applied ion differnt jurisdictions and different levels and taxatioon levesls and offsets that may or may not applky to different individuals, corporations and groups in differnt ways. One exasmle of what Hudak has to deal with iis the GST brought in anad adjusted by his federal Conservative cousins and the proposal by McGuinty Ontario Liberals to work with Hudaks' cousins and harmonize the GST with the Ontario Provincial sales tax in a HST (Harmonized Sales tax).. The BST and the propsed HST affecs manufacturers, retailers, home builders and buyers, low, nedium and high inocme aearners in different ways. One example is that the proopsed HST will nto apply to thep ruchase of new homes under $400,000. which will affect differnt builers and buyres in difrfernt ways.
Hudak is campaigning on lower taxes. We don't have to discuss tax policy. That would be irrelevent. This is about what causes the vast majority of people to vote for some parties and not others at the level of mainstreet pocketbooks. No mystification needed, no rocket science complexity.
That is what the neo-cons have done - successfully - since '78. And the HST is already their primary campaign weapon. And they will destroy more public service when they win with the support of wealth and the Great Unread. At a library board meeting today, tough times have led to the first mention of public-private partnership in a purely public sector up to now. That would not happen in a municipality or institution that was properly funded.
What's to "constantly laugh at", Peter? New Democrats in Nova Scotia take it seriously. Shouldn't we here in the dying "industrial heartland"?
i do know where my income taxes go, but i am still wondering who changed the Ont. property tax system to market value assessment.
"If the federal and provincial governments take back responsibility for the many items they offloaded, the last two decades, then municipal taxes on property don't have to be so high. Easing the grip of the Chicago School and fniance capital would also help a lot."
yes, i have had the sense, when various tax parameters have been discussed in the past, that it is very difficult for taxation policy to be talked about outside of or separate from the bigger picture of public finance generally- and the service downloads and re-regulation to give private bankers (who deserve it least) more control are two significant elements of the bigger picture which need to be raised every time some con tries to buy votes with 'lower taxes' spin. add to those elements proper use of the Bank of Canada.
However, I still think that we need to get rid of market value assessment for homes. there was a group out this way that campaigned on that for some time, and there was some good dialogue in one of our local papers. McGuinty found a way to freeze the valuations temporarily in respose to the outrage of too many seniors losing their homes, but the system is still in place. It needs to go.
In the past, both the right and the left have treated taxation issues too simplistically. The right has said cut them, the left- keep them. this is insufficient clarity today. we end up with problems like 'ax the tax' reactions and counter-reactions. maybe there is a need for a separate thread on taxes...
Hudak is campaigning on lower taxes. We don't have to discuss tax policy. That would be irrelevent. This is about what causes the vast majority of people to vote for some parties and not others at the level of mainstreet pocketbooks. No mystification needed, no rocket science complexity.
That is what the neo-cons have done - successfully - since '78. And the HST is already their primary campaign weapon. And they will destroy more public service when they win with the support of wealth and the Great Unread. At a library board meeting today, tough times have led to the first mention of public-private partnership in a purely public sector up to now. That would not happen in a municipality or institution that was properly funded.
What's to "constantly laugh at", Peter? New Democrats in Nova Scotia take it seriously. Shouldn't we here in the dying "industrial heartland"?
There seems to be a contradiction in what you say., You seem to suggest the neo econs and the NS NDP won elections s by discussing taxes but you say we don;t ned to discuss tax policy. I asuem the resl;utioon of thtat apparent contraciton is to come up with a good "message" or our own mantra on taxes that may be thin on plicy but big on appeal- msay soemthing like the "Corporat Welfare Bums" campaign of David Lewis?
This iw waht the Ontario NDP is saying now about the HST- which I think is not too bad on message and policy-opposing the HST as it htis low and middle incoincome, criticizing the corporate tax cuts and calling for help for the "industrial hearland". What do you think?
http://www.andreahorwath.com/unfairtaxgrab/home.html
The Facts about McGuinty’s Unfair Tax Grab
<p>Your browser does not support iframes.</p>
Now, here's gall
Dammit!!!
Why'd you have to post that? You made me draw a little Hitler moustache on my monitor!!
Yes, thanks, there certainly is a need for a thread on taxes.
This is not it. This is about lowering taxes as a come-on for the electorate, the siren song, the effective campaign item. By people who will balance the budget by privatizing public institutions.
In the early 70s I picked up a minister in the Saskatchewan government at Toronto airport to bring him as guest speaker to a meeting in our Peterborough NDP riding. He made it clear during our two-hour drive that western New Democrats could not understand the absence of concern for budgeting in the campaigning of their Ontario counterparts.
And Peter, I'm only saying that Nova Scotian New Democrats in the same way seem to be concerned about how to pay for advocated social policy. And, of course, in the time of David Lewis, when the possibilities for Keynesian practices seemed limitless, and before the corporation had become central to everyone's invested future - it was also before tax revolt time, before 1978, before Chicago School.
You see, we have to pay the piper if we expect the corporation to employ us and provide for us in our old age. Ignoring this point, New Democrats are themselves ignored. Particularly by a media that is itself desperately trying to survive - as corporations, public and private.
McGinty's unfair tax grab is indeed unfair. But he is struggling to keep public medicine in place. See his much criticized tax of a couple of years back with medicine in mind. And can you imagine what Hudak has in mind? No laughing matter.
No, Peter. Tell us where the money is going to come from besides squeezing the corporation. The Swedes had to come to that understanding. Same with Finland. They wanted to be employed. And they focused on providing an educated workforce to make the corporation even happier. And labour and corporation meet with government to plan.
That, Peter, is the kind of "help" that New Democrats should be calling for, while pointing to what has happened to those constituencies in the U.S. where the mantra of lower taxes has left the administrations unable to do anything but call for help from the federal level.
The "Help" called for now in the industrial heartland has to involve helping the corporation more than other constituencies are prepared to. As the documentary film The Corporation showed us, the corporation is only a psychopathic social entiry anyway, eh? ...but it has to meet investor expectations, or expire.
Your income taxes go to federal and provincial coffers in the early spring each year. If the federal and provincial governments take back responsibility for the many items they offloaded, the last two decades, then municipal taxes on property don't have to be so high. Easing the grip of the Chicago School and fniance capital would also help a lot.
That's about it. But try to convince Hudak and his pack of opportunitsts...and the vulnerable Great Unread upon whom they feed. And watch them win on the issue of the melded taxes starting next summer. The local PC slimeball (who supported Hudak) has been campaigning on that issue for weeks already. Getting the unread ready, really angry. Balanced budgets needed? Cut social spending.
That's what happened beginning in '95 thanks. Income taxes do NOT "intersect" with property taxes. And for most folks, there is only one kind of property.
Read Robert Reigh's (edit. ,that's Reich, not Reigh) Supercapitalism. Should be available through interlibrary. For when the morning glory is under control.
Comparing him to obama? for shame. Next theres a halo on top of his head. we need human rights in ontario. hudak would take away our way to make sure they are realized.
As for taxes, the money does have to come from somewhere... But stealing from the poor to give to the rich? Really? regardless of what's in mind at the time, that just doesn't make sense.
Nobody is defending Hudak, let alone comparing him to Obama. And certainly, I cannot find anyone advocating for theft from the poor.
Nothing in your posting makes "sense". Nothing at all!
Have a nap, then, your mind refreshed, read it ALL again, v e r y, v e r y c a r e f u l l y.
See what you come up with.
I wasn't talking about any of the posters... I was talking about the 'poster' someone posted. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
And I was agreeing with you on taxes, GV.
whew!
I'll bet you folks correspond quite a bit and so can move right in on what you are thinking, without a lot of the usual introductories, eh?
I wasn't talking about any of the posters... I was talking about the 'poster' someone posted. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Now, I hope you do realize I posted it tongue-in-cheek--though I can see how it could be a Babble version of Joe Goatse.
In case you don't know what I'm referring to...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse.cx
(Being Wikipedia, it's safe. But please, don't try to look up the actual image. It's the jpg version of Phil Harris's "The Thing", if you get my drift.)
Looks like Hudak has a scandal to deal with in his own party. The PC riding association in Barrie has been dissolved by the party following allegations and charges of sexual assault by two members of its executive.
I have to admit Hudak is showing some smart poltical reaching out.
I was contacted by him this week (on my cellphone!) in connection with a position I hold in the 3 d world. He was knowledgable and I have to admit personable.
I really pisses me off when the otherside is smart.
In contrast I have sent things to NDP critics and staffers about issues that would be NDP friendly smart moves. Didn't get so much as a thanks for your email reply.
If thats the Case, the NDP staffers and critics are no longer in touch with the public. If you find Hudak more personable and more organized, and you support the NDP, I suggest the NDP get the message and recognise the wake up call.
Given that he's next door to Peter Kormos and the two of them are reportedly on congenial terms out of the legislature, who knows--maybe he's learned a few of his "more personable and organized" tricks from the NDP...
Well with the ONDP virtually silent on the Toronto strike this will allow Mr Mini Mike Hudak to beat up on the public sector like his mentor Mike Harris. Good going Andrea glad to see you are against the HST just like the Tories. Hope I'm not the only one who has noticed.
This thread is about electoral politics in a frightened 21st Century world, boomer, not about the ancient Japanese art of seppuku so familiar to ideologues.
Think of the tax rate,
Tax rates are the refuge of an unimaginative mind George Victor. Tax rates don't talk for the environment, tax rates don't talk for worker's rights, and tax rates don't talk for those who have no money to tax.
But feel free to discuss tax rates rather than inspiring a new way to be better to each other. Tommy Douglas didn't give us health care by talking about the tax rate and we won't add Article 31 to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, stating that everyone has the right to clean and accessible water, by talking about tax rates.
Tax rates are the refuge of the Liberals and the Tories.
That's right. Start reading a little higher in the thread.
But that is the level of political consciousness out there, eh?
And you present the case for class consciousness?
Right.
No your fixation with taxation is well read. So what and who cares. It is a truism that people do not respond to arguments over taxation other than who will lower them the most and the fastest. So why even argue.
The tragedy of 1978 was not the lowering of taxes it was the failure to remind people that taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society.
So my question is why is the NDP arguing over taxes when we should be standing by unionised workers who are holding the line against a corporatism that seeks to turn back the clock on worker and environmental rights.
By your fixation same sex marriage was not about human rights but about the tax credit.
Justice Holmes did not carry his argument over the top, boomer, to nonsensical rhetoric about "fixation".
We (of the left) have to demonstrate that balanced budgets (avoiding tax increases) are not created with a Hogwarts' wand. I do believe that Nova Scotia leads the way in that respect (and I'm sure that Ontario's serious left is studiously avoiding study of the Bluenose formula, like that of the Democrats to the south). One-liners rule the rhetorical day.
We should argue that the striking workers have a right to a decent pension - and also argue that everyone should have a decent pension, and explain just how that could be done, thus justifying our level of taxation. A provincial pension scheme has been mentioned.
Proposing it would help the low-wage majority in the private sector understand why their taxes should not be lowered. But not explaining a position in favour of new taxes is suicidal. And without an honest media and huge advertising budgets, that's beyond difficult.
Low wages are here to stay in our Brave New World. We just have to design the means by which life chances are not diminished for the "working poor". And many more of us will soon fit that category.
Did not realise that you supported Bob Rae's sentiment that the Nova Scotia NDP will govern from the centre.
We must not try to revise reality to fit our theories, boomer.
And giving real aid to those struggling to survive would not be too shabby an accomplishment as the world economy and environment "re-adjusts".
