Status of Chattel

Unionist wrote:

You may be right - it's drift in this thread - but it certainly has exposed how important the whole subject matter is. The commodification of women, their transformation into sexual objects, their dehumanization and degradation on one hand - vs. the disenfranchisement of youth, sexual prudery, social conservatism, homophobia, etc. - there's no reason why these struggles have to be put into opposition to each other, but it's clear from this thread how complex and sensitive the issues are.

No, they do not have to be put into opposition of each other. However, how does one define sexual prudery? I do not think that a belief that children (as defined by child welfare laws and age of consent laws) should not be having sex (other than self-pleasure) is prudery or social conservatism. Prudery is believing that everyone should wait until marriage.

You support Bill C-22, which criminalized sexual touching between a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old. Both are now guilty of a criminal act. And it maintains the criminality of "non-standard" sexual activity below age 18. You don't have to tell me what your definition of prudery is. Nor your definition of "children".

Unionist wrote:

You support Bill C-22, which criminalized sexual touching between a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old. Both are now guilty of a criminal act. And it maintains the criminality of "non-standard" sexual activity below age 18. You don't have to tell me what your definition of prudery is. Nor your definition of "children".

 

First off, the age of consent should be 16 for all  - whether hetero or homosexual. Secondly - yes a 20 year old going after a 14 year old is a crime in Canada now. Good. That is child sexual abuse and should be prosecuted.

My definition of children (which you put in quotes for some reason - do you disagree with child welfare and child porn law?) is based on the law. I have a social work degree that focussed on child development/child welfare and my career began as a child protection worker.

Unionist wrote:

Bill C-22, which criminalized sexual touching between a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old. Both are now guilty of a criminal act.

No, the 20 year old is guilty of a criminal act, the 14 year old is the victim.

"If the age difference is more than five years, the older person will be forced to register as a sex offender."

I can't believe I'm debating with supporters of Harper and Toews' legislation here, so I'll stop. Carry on with your "protection" of children, and god help us.

Unionist wrote:

I can't believe I'm debating with supporters of Harper and Toews' legislation here, so I'll stop. Carry on with your "protection" of children, and god help us.

Well you beat me to it.  The moment that this conversation went from discussing disclosure to girls and women to make it okay from them on either side to say yes or no to sex to talking about sex between a 14 year old and a 20 year old it took a turn into territory that I have resistance.  This is one area where I have resistance because of my issues and I refrain from commenting because I can't think without my heart interferring in the process and I won't be able to see clearly what I am saying.

Well after suffering Unionist's blatant misinformation about children under 14 being criminals when adults hit on them, the least I can do is post my translation of the Matane project description, which should clarify that a few of you have been slagging an excellent feminist initiative on the strength of the Toronto Star's misrepresentation of it. Just goes to show one is never wary enough of the MSM...

And how are things going in YOUR relationship?

Project Description

In recent years, a growing media trend tends to depict girls as sex objects and this at an increasingly young age. For Rimouski's Rape Crisis Centre (Centre d'aide et de lutte contre les agressions à caractère sexuel), there is no doubt that the early sexualization of girls is a consequence of our society's hypersexualization, and that this hypersexualization is a contributing factor to sexual assaults.1 In 2008, more than 16,000 Quebec women have knocked on the door of a women's centre for reasons related to violence.2

The beginning of adolescence is acknowledged as a period of openness where youths are receptive to the establishment of healthy relationships and to non-violent conflict. A certain number of changes occurring at adolescence - e.g. the apprenticeship of autonomy and the displacement of dependency from parents to peers - make this period especially crucial in learning to establish non-violent relationships.3

As far back as 2001, a survey we organized in Matane among 552 youths aged 14 to 20 determined that 25% of respondents, most of them girls, spoke of violent behaviours in their romantic relationship. In 2009, we must more than ever promote both equalitarian models and behaviours, not only with regard to sexuality but also in perspectives regarding dating relationships between youths.

The project entitled "And how are things going in YOUR relationship?" is an interactive, multi-year (2009-2012) endeavour, that will be developed with female teenagers of the Matane region. For maximum impact, it is important to us to obtain an active interaction and participation of female teenagers, both in the design and rollout of the program.

The educational project "And how are things going in YOUR relationship?" aims to promote equitable, non-violent behaviour in the romantic relationships of adolescents. By putting out information and creating an education tool, the project will ensure support and mentoring to female teenagers, in order to prevent dating violence.

The project's specific objectives are the following:
1. To describe the impact of hypersexualization on self-esteem, to highlight the various forms of violence in romantic relationships and the possibility of non-violent conflict resolution.
2. To create and distribute an education to promote equalitarian and non-violent behaviours in the context of youth romantic relationships.
3. To create a mentoring process.
4. To have female mentors act as community outreach workers, using the project's education tool in the various communities of the Matane region.

Footnotes:
1 Regional Forum on Hypersexualization, Rimouski, May 16-17, 2007
2 l'Intersyndicale des femmes - January 2009
3 Wolfe, Wekerle & Scott, 1997

Partnering with the Matane Youth Centre, La Lucarne
To achieve this project that mainly focuses on young girls, we decided to work cooperatively with La Lucarne, Matane's youth drop-in centre. Thus, the youth outreach worker will share her working hours between the Regroupement des femmes and La Lucarne. Similarly, youths will have activities both at the Women's Centre and at the Youth Centre.

Active participation of youths
To maximize impact, we find it paramount to For maximum impact, it is important to us to obtain an active interaction and participation of female teenagers, both in the design and rollout of the program. This is why we have chosen to create education tools and to organize a mentoring process rather than organize workshops. We know that the information will be conveyed much better if it is transmitted by youths themselves, especially during teenage years.

During the first year, teenagers will create and distribute an information brochure on the link between hypersexualization and violence in dating relationships (in the form of a quiz + info). On the second year, young women will create an information tool (video, comic book, play...) and outreach with it among youths. During the third year, female teenagers will be trained to become mentors and thus equip their peers with tools in their living environment. Young males will also be able to participate in this project, especially at the Youth Centre.

Cooperation with our partners
Of course, this project involves a knowledge transfer component. The tools created will be distributed among our partners:
Locally: Committee on hypersexualization, community organizations and school environments.
Regionally: Regional coalition table on violence, Regional tables of Lower St-Laurent women's centres and women's organizations.
Nationally : L'R des centres de femmes du Québec, Status of Women Canada.

For information, please contact :
Lucie Watts, 418-562-6443
Youth outreach worker in charge of the project

Thanks martin for the translation.

I think this project is "right wing" and falls in line with the capital "C" conservatives because while it does tackle important things that must be done, it makes no effort to combat or even gainsay those who are openly engaging in the hypersexualization of children.

It seems to me this is where the left or progressives or whatever label one prefers has truly lost it's way in the last generation:  all the onus is on victims or potential victims of, in this case, assault, to deffend themselves within the continuing and unchallenged atmosphere that creates, exploits and or exacerbates the problem.

So, a few government dollars set against the kabillions spent by advertisers and production companies. 

How would have the money flowed if an aspect of this program targeted advertisers on TLC's "Todler's and Tiaras", or provided an critique of Much Music's view of sexuality promoted by Tia Tequilla?

This reminds me of the Green Party version of environmental responsibility:  Ignore the criminal dumping of toxins into the St. Clair River by corporations, and instead make ordinary people pay extra for plastic grocery bags.

Jesus Christ in a Hand Cart.

it makes no effort to combat or even gainsay those who are openly engaging in the hypersexualization of children...

Yes, it does. Hypersexualization is understood as a social process and this education tool will articulate how and whence it plays out.

all the onus is on victims or potential victims of, in this case, assault, to deffend themselves

How can you say this when project participants will be going out and confronting the causes and the effects of this process, as subjects?
continuing and unchallenged atmosphere
Challenging and stopping this atmosphere it is exacty what the project will be doing.
So, a few government dollars set against the kabillions spent by advertisers and production companies.
And the kabillion words put out by defenders of the system and critics of SWC. Of course, it isn't enough but is it a reason to slag the women trying and the funds they have finally obtained to do so?
How would have the money flowed if an aspect of this program targeted advertisers on TLC's "Todler's and Tiaras", or provided an critique of Much Music's view of sexuality promoted by Tia Tequilla?
Where do you get that the program won't do this once kids start determining the sources and vehicles of attempts at hypersexualizing them? Indeed, the Rimouski women have long been at the forefront of in-your-face action against sexist advertising in Quebec. There lie the roots of this project.
I am really stunned at the arrogance shown by Anglo-Canadian males here to such a worthy project by front-line Quebec anti-VAW activists. Maybe you need to protect the intellectual comfort of thinking that the feds cannot be pressured to do anything right, even once in a blue moon. I sure hope those armchairs are comfortable...

I'm an old lefty who wears his hair too long, and my trouser cuffs too tight,  Unionist. 

It's not my intention to totally take a crap on this whole program, or any other "progressive" initiative.  However, like the good boys and girls we've all become on the left, it really does nothing to challenge actual power.

We've become a fire department in a society that has legalized arson.

Quote:

I am really stunned at the arrogance shown by Anglo-Canadian males here to such a worthy project by front-line Quebec anti-VAW activists. Maybe you need to protect the intellectual comfort of thinking that the feds cannot be pressured to do anything right, even once in a blue moon. I sure hope those armchairs are comfortable...

See, Tommy? Either stay out, or practise name-calling one-upmanship. It's a tough choice.

To call arrogance is an ad hominem attack???

I don't like your fashion business mister
And I don't like these drugs that keep you thin
I don't like what happened to my sister
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

You're talking about situations where children were forced into unsafe jobs?  I think everyone deserves protection from that.  I also know that people under the age of consent can and do consent to sex.

Thanks Unionist. I am sorry myself that I lumped you with Anglo Canadians: you deserved better.

Your distinction about whether young girls have sex of their own volition or are coerced into it by a sexualizing environment is well-taken - but not always easy to ascertain. And feminists have made the point, accurately I think, that when this happens before girls have found enough self-esteem to resist social/peer/male pressure, their agency is questionable. Hence the need to confront that pressuring environment where it is most egregious,as I think you'll agree the Matane women plan to do by empowering girls. i

IF the Toronto Star and the people who have bought its line do not shame SWC away from funding them.

Well put, I totally agree.

I'm guessing you have your own answer to that, Unionist.

Unionist wrote:

jas wrote:

In our current cultural milieu, with our collective immaturity around sex and sexuality, the best thing to do for our children is to teach them that sex is healthy, experimentation (to a degree) is normal, but boundaries are important, and some activities are not to be expected at their age.

Well, I don't know whether I agree or not, because I don't understand what you said there. For example, what do I tell my 14-year-old about giving or receiving blowjobs? And my 15-year-old about "penetration"?

By the time my daughter was 7 or 8 she was aware of various sexual practices because I always answered her questions as they came up to whatever degree she wanted answers.  As she aged I never felt any need to discuss particular sexual acts on an individual basis although I did discuss the pressures to engage in sexual activity she might experience.  We talked about the various possible outcomes to sexual activity both physical and emotional as well as the right and wrong reasons to participate in sexual activity regardless of the degree.  That is, it's just as wrong to kiss someone because you feel pressured into it as it is to have sex with someone because you feel pressured into it.  We discussed the various lines used in order to exert that pressure and what the actual statistics are concerning sexual activity versus the impression given by the media that "everyone" is doing it.

One thing I explained is that it was normal for her to want to dress attractively but that it would be interpreted as sexy by some people who would interpret it as meaning she was ready for or wanted sex.  I could help her but that ultimately she would have to find the balance she was comfortable with.

In terms of what activity is appropriate at what age we can't draw a hard and fast line for that anymore than we can for driving.  We have to choose an arbitrary age based on what we believe is reasonably fair.  That means some people will get a drivers licence too young and others will have to wait longer than they should given their level of maturity. 

I'm a big fan of "Romeo and Juliet" clauses.

Wilf Day wrote:

 "the early sexualization of girls is a consequence of the hypersexualization of our society, and that hypersexualization is a factor contributing to sexual assault"

The first part of your sentence is a commonly understood truth, and is a relatively benign truth to admit to, even for conservatives. It is a basic premise that rape crisis centres and women's shelters begin from.

It's the second part, after the comma, that is a problematic connection, and in this case I will say a wrong connection, and one that appears to explicitly blame women for violence done to them. I guess it's associated with social conservatives for that reason.

Factors that contribute to sexual assault are all on the assaulter's side of the table, since it's the assaulter, after all, who is doing the assaulting.

If hypersexualization is understood as an active social process - as the Matane women make clear it is - and not one of that process's results - hypersexuality, i.e. girls dressing sexy or acting out -, then wouldn't yoiu say say that this factor is unequivocallly on the system's side of the table, not women's?

To use an unperfect and limited analogy, would you agree, for instance, that the racializing of people contributes to racist assaults against them, and that it is not to blame victims to point to their racialization as a contributing factor to their abuse, beside the abuser's agency?

So Martin and Refuge both agree that hypersexualization contributes to girls dressing sexy which contributes to sexual assault - but it's society's fault, not the girl's fault, so it's ok to say that. Have I got that right?

martin dufresne wrote:

To use an unperfect and limited analogy, would you agree, for instance, that the racializing of people contributes to racist assaults against them, and that it is not to blame victims to point to their racialization as a contributing factor to their abuse, beside the abuser's agency?

I agree that the analogy is imperfect and limited, because girls can supposedly dress differently, but race and racialization are not that easy to modify. Hence, in the case of girls, the question gets raised as to whether and how to teach/preach/blame regarding dress styles. It doesn't arise with race.