Trans Inclusion and Feminism

Many trans people prefer to be called the third gender. I think we should be listening to what they say, not what we impose upon them. They know they are not true females in the sense of being a born female. They know they are not men in the sense that they have or may have had a penis. So why not allow for a third gender option?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

There is a lot more information is you use Google.

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I'd like to continue this conversation, less about the issue that started it, the clinic in Vancouver, and more about the issue of trans identity and inclusion in women's spaces.

This might not be a conversation this board is capable of having.  This isn't even a conversation most people are capable of having.  If someone has a problem accepting trans people's identities - if anyone thinks cis women are entitled to cis women only space - they should KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES, at least on any board that pretends to be progressive.

Stargazer, you are absolutely correct, but most trans people do not identify as a third gender.

A person whose understanding of her/hir/his gender identification transcends society’s polarized gender system. OBGLTC believes that the dichotomized system of gender is limiting; therefore, OBGLTC encourages everyone to think outside and beyond this schema. THIRD GENDER Male-to-Third Gender (born in body of male, believe self to be another gender)* Female-to-Third Gender (born in body of female, believe self to be another gender)* * People who are third gender often prefer "transgender" to "third gender" * http://archive.uua.org/obgltc/resource/tg102.html From Transgender 102. I see that some prefer to be called third gender and others do not. Just a question - do you think men easily accept FTM people? I think, IMO, that men have a much much harder time in accepting trans people.

In fact, I do not believe they would ever allow a transgener to be part of their "men only" space. I would love to be proven wrong.

That makes me feel quite warm and fuzzy actually.  This thread is better without you in it.  If you think [i]what I said[/i] is inappropriate then by all means, elaborate, or PM me if you have some specific problem with me, or else just take it to the mods.

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Just a question - do you think men easily accept FTM people? I think, IMO, that men have a much much harder time in accepting trans people.

In fact, I do not believe they would ever allow a transgener to be part of their "men only" space. I would love to be proven wrong.

Sweeping generalizations aside, you are probably right, and those men deserve to be called on it.

It might be worthwhile to consider the decision by the moderators on enmasse regarding the same topic on their forum. They asked all participants to abide by the following recommendations:

1. No defining trans people's realities for them.

2. Pay respect to and think about trans people's voices before you speak.

3. Take the time to educate yourself on a few very basic trans issues, particularly regarding social inequality, before you ask people to explain them.

4. Be respectful of all people who identify as women or men, regardless of birth gender, and ensure that all voices are heard in discussion.

5. Be able to disagree, but respectfully disagree, without putting down or insulting trans people in the forum.

I did not get anyone banned anywhere.

I object to the "feminine essence narrative" as a definition of femaleness.  I'm no academic so I could be wrong but I do believe that the rejection of said narrative is pretty core to feminist thinking.  That is, no matter how positive the traits may be, women are not preprogrammed to behave in certain ways, like not be as good at math but be better in languages.  "Thinking like a female" is not biologically determined (IMO).  This is not a "non-progressive viewpoint".  The disagreement is being framed in such a way that if I disagree with the "feminine essence narrative" then I am imposing on trans people's right to self-identify.

I reject the premise that all trans-people agree with the feminine essence theory.  Apparently there are a few like Lynn Conway who have worked hard through lies and intimidation tactics to silence any trans-people who dare disagree with them.  How is that okay?

It is impossible to read this:

http://www.bioethics.northwestern.edu/faculty/work/dreger/controversy_tm...

and not acknowledge that trans people were bullied and frightened into silence.  I was disgusted at the treatment of trans people by other trans people. Lynn and her buddies appear to have trained at Bush's feet when it comes to tactics.  Surely all trans people have the right to be heard not just the ones that fall into the "feminine essence narrative" theory.

I reject the premise that:

if I disagree with the "feminine essence narrative"as proof of womanhood

- I am imposing on trans people's right to self-identify. 

- I am transphobic.

- I am non-progressive.

- I am mean and hurtful.

(IMO) Women and/or the courts cannot be forced to officially agree that having a "feminine essence" is an inherent identifiable component that defines what it is to be a woman or that it's the same as being born with female body parts.  

P.S.  To the list of rules, lets add "no defining women's realities for them".

Your posts are transphobic, and also mean and hurtful.  I am sure this is not intentional.  I am trying to be civil.  It's not easy.  Your posts have played a part in making at least one person feel silenced (enough to self-ban) at another community, it would be nice if the same didn't happen here.  You can have all the reservations you want, just keep them to yourself.  Just like a person can have all the reservations about whether a same-sex marriage is really a "marriage" or not, but nobody needs to hear about them here.  It's the same thing.  You don't own womanhood.  Trans women are not horning in on your identity.  And nobody said all trans people believed in any feminine essence theory.  Some trans people identify as a third gender.  Respect that.  Some trans women identify as women.  Respect that.  Please.

If you have a better way to describe people who are not trans when talking about trans issues, I'd like to hear it.  I'm sure you didn't mean to say that the opposite of trans is normal.

Maysie wrote:

The groovy fabulous gorgeousness of these rules, is that we can substitute in "women", "POC", "Aboriginal people", "lower income/working class people", "people with disabilities" and the rules hold, and make sense. 

I have one quibble: the stricture on "defining people's realities". Put that way, of course, the thing is objectionable. But almost all interesting debates concern "reality" and someone can always lay claim to it. (It's "my reality".) The thing is that our realities are all interdependent and all informed by economic, social, and political realities. So no one can say, "This is my reality and you're not allowed to question it." (A very liberal way of seeing things!) I agree, though, about listening to people and about respect. But there's a moral imperative to question and debate, too. 

addendum: I agree that when we discuss trans issues, trans people have a certain primacy. But what they have to say is still open to question and debate. I've posted some things on my own experience and people have listened to me very respectfully. That's good and I appreciate it. (I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!) But, nonetheless, what I have to say is not beyond question. And if I say something that has broad implications then I think it needs to be questioned. 

All the trans women I know, think of themselves as women, plain and simple. If you live 20 years as a man and then 30 as a woman, what are you? Have you experienced enough misogyny to be accepted as a "real women" by the gatekeepers? 

Trans men, well, they get ignored in all this. Does the category "women" include men born women? 

I'm reading along but won't be taking part in a feminist-forum discussion, other than this post. This isn't my space to mouth off in at length. I sure wish there was a dedicated trans-safe space though.

I think I found the perfect explanation of the conflict between feminists and trans people.  It hinges on the nature of gender-identity.

 from "The Fallacy of the Myth of Gender" from http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2000/elancane.htm

The totality of social adherence to the bi-polarised gender system has granted to the gender system the status of absolute; whereas the reality is that the gender system, as a social construct, can be dismantled as it was created.

The above is in accordance with feminist thinking.  Gender is not something we are born with, it is a social construct. 

I cannot agree with the argument that there are in existence a number of alternative unidentified genders, all just waiting in the wings to be discovered, because I do not accept that the identity has to be gendered, that is I do not accept that human beings have to be gendered as male, female or anything else in between or apart from. There are two accepted gendered roles which are appropriated according to the physicality and to state that one is neither male nor female but belonging of another gender (or more than one gender) is, I'm afraid, confusing the issue because the gendered status of the person is a socially accorded role and society has only appropriated validity to the gendered statuses of male and female.

I think the above is reflective of feminist thinking.  That is, gender is not inherent, it's not something we are born with.  It is a social construct.  It is one thing to welcome trans gendered people into womens spaces because they gender-identity as women, an entirely different thing to say that they are women because they gender-identify as such.  To agree with the latter is to agree that gender is not a social construct but something we are born with. 

The world health organization:

http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html

"Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

“Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

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This is the great divide between trans people and feminists. 

Many trans activists are trying to redefine gender to be the equivalent of sex.  They are trying to claim that women's gender roles are inherent.  That is exactly what feminists have been fighting. 

http://folk.uio.no/thomas/po/whatisfeminism.htm

Feminists, as a rule, assume that there are few if any inherent, unchangeable differences between men and women; only a lot of individual differences and variation. Patriarchalists claim the existence of many universal and immutable differences between men and women, seeking to understate, marginalize and suppress individual differences in an attempt to create two universal gender forms or essences that everybody must be squeezed into. In other words, Lamont's claim that most feminists are polylogists is wrong. Only a minority of feminists are polylogists; but virtually all patriarchalists are polylogists. They follow a schema of rationalizations starting with biological, immutable gender essences that are used to justify polylogist beliefs about men's and women's minds, and from there they move on to justify different treatment and expectations of girls and boys, women and men, pretending that gender roles are natural, inborn and immutable.

Trans women who claim that gender identity is inborn and core to being female are promoting what most feminists that I know think of as partriarchal thinking. 

Trying to force us to define ourselves as only one kind of woman, cis woman, is trying to force us to accept the theory that a woman can be born with "female gender identity" but without the physical sex characteristics. 

Trying to shame me into accepting that theory, or trying to guilt me into because I am "hurting their feelings" feels very much like patriarchal manipulation and coercion.  That is not something I expect to face in a feminist topic area of a progressive website. 

I am not "transphobic" for not agreeing with the premise that gender-identity is an inborn sex-dictated characteristic.  I believe that it is a social construct.

What infosaturated is describing is not transphonia.So why not discuss the issues she raises?

But even if it were transphobia, it would be possible, surely, to argue against it. It would have no convincing rational or empirical basis. It would just be an emotional response. So, again, why can we not discuss the issues she raises? 

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"Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

“Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

Thank you for those definitions.

Within the framework of  genital assignment characteristics  and physiological differences,  resides the primary factor of menstruation, and how it impacts and forms the life of born girls/women. It is a shared fundamental experience between us all, that cannot be shared by those who are born male. It cannot be discounted, nor overlooked and trivialized as if it does not exist. Of all the differences there are between born woman, the experience of menstruation and ovulation are a significant shared commonality.

I see men browbeating women here with the "transphobia" insult, trying to force themselves in their space at Lu's Pharmacy and in this forum. I understand that they take their entitlement to do so in their claim that trans women are women and that woman-born women have no commonality that would allow them to resist men's and trans' pressure. That to me is enough to make me question that claim and to understand why we are not seeing the safe trans forum mentioned by Ze being set up.

I hope that Boze is out of here for good, because he sent an abusive personal message to one of us after being specifically asked not to ever contact her again.

You have been reported.

Michael Nenonen wrote:

I think that the first example given of transphobia in my previous post (the belief that a person is not a 'real woman' or a 'real man' if s/he is transgendered) fits the position espoused repeatedly by Infosaturated and remind on these boards.

Yet to say someone is or isn't a "real" woman, one must define what a woman is to begin with.

From the website you quoted:

http://mypage.direct.ca/h/hrp/gendertr.html

The most important thing about gender is that its meaning is created by society: people are expected to behave and express themselves in certain ways that are consistent with the socially pre-determined gender role associated with their sex.

And yet as you noted the same site also states that transphobia includes - the belief that a person is not a "real woman" or a "real man" if s/he is transgendered;

Therefore this particular analysis is stating that:

 The definition of “woman” is a social construct consisting of a set group of behaviors which both transgendered people and female sex people can share.  Transgendered people are therefore just as much “real” women as female sex born people.

Feminists in general do not see “woman” as a social construct. The gender identity imposed on women is the social construct not women themselves. It’s not an inherent characteristic.  Reflecting the “woman” gender identity doesn’t make us women.  That is how the patriarchy defines us not ourselves.  I can think of little more insulting than being told that if I say I am a woman I am saying that I am my socially constructed and assigned gender identity.

If you say that a woman is someone who reflects the gender identity assigned to women, then yes, trans gendered women are “women”.

But in that case, places like the Michigan festival are not intended for “women”. It’s not for people who reflect the socially constructed gender identity of “women”.  If anything it exists to fight the socially constructed gender identity “woman”.   Being defined by this social construct is at the very root of feminism. The oppression of women is justified based on the idea that these behaviors are inherent and define us. 

It seems like without spelling it out, trans women want “woman” to mean anyone who thinks they are a woman but that makes the word completely meaningless. 

Going to read

Transfeminism/Cisfeminism: Why can't we be friends?

martin dufresne wrote:

I see men browbeating women here with the "transphobia" insult, trying to force themselves in their space at Lu's Pharmacy and in this forum. I understand that they take their entitlement to do so in their claim that trans women are women and that woman-born women have no commonality that would allow them to resist men's and trans' pressure.

Yes, it seems some want to; take away our consent to self identify,  re-label  and direct us according to their dictates, desires and perceptions, which is true patriarchial ideology and activity..this is where our differences also lie. As really, they do not want to listen to us, they want us to listen to them, inspite of some protests to the contrary across the net. And if we don't listen or bow before the pressure, we are viciously labelled, verbally attacked, hounded, lied about, and even taken to court, of course all in the name of solidarity.

I don't want to create problems on babble when I'm almost completely over on enMasse. But I feel it's wrong to watch what's happening without speaking out.

Regardless of your personal feelings about trans people, and more specifically around trans women and feminism, can I ask if some you have even the slightest understanding of the amount of oppression trans people face? I am, frankly, shocked to see the lack of empathy that's being exhibited on two progressive boards.

For example:

[url=http://www.hrc.org/issues/1508.htm]How do transgender people suffer from discrimination?[/url]

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... one expert estimates that transgender individuals living in America today have a one in 12 chance of being murdered. In contrast, the average person has about a one in 18,000 chance of being murdered.

[url=http://www.outproud.org/article_suicide.html]Gay, Lesbian and Transgender Youth Suicide[/url] (comprehensive survey in the USA in 1993)

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Transsexuals may be at higher risk than homosexuals and much higher risk than the general population to suicidal behavior. Fifty-three percent of transsexuals surveyed had made suicide attempts.

I would expect progressive people to see this and be outraged.

But clearly some of you have little conception (and I have not got the personal experience, either, but at least I've bothered to educate myself a bit) of the incredible struggles that transsexual people face. Appallingly difficult struggles, in many if not most cases. Every story I have heard or read, no matter how positive the outcome, has been a major challenge. Even if family and friends and employers are completely on side, and that's a very big if, there's contending with the medical/psychological establishment, and there's contending with the rest of society. Society which judges and condemns. Fires without cause. Refuses health care coverage. Refuses housing. Denounces religiously. Takes children away. Causes people to live in constant fear. Beats. Rapes. Kills.

And excludes.

So of course many people who have transitioned live in stealth. And some people struggle painfully to keep their identity hidden or suppressed, because they will lose too much by transitioning.

I don't like hauling out the negative. Because I think trans people should be celebrated, not pitied. But it seems some basic reminders are needed.

Trans activists are speaking out, and fighting this oppression, and having the courage to identify themselves publicly, often at great personal risk.

What happens? They get attacked, including by progressive people, for being too loud and aggressive and pushy and demanding. Since when do we say activists fighting oppression are any of these things? We should be consumed with admiration for trans activists.

I am horrified that people are using feminism to further the exclusion of trans people. It feels that several people here are giving each other license to encourage each other to do so. Martin, I am a feminist and you do not speak for me, and this constant "as a man I'll step back," then interjecting yet again approach you've been taking is hardly pro-feminist. Remind, I have read a lot of your posts on babble, and you seem like a person who is normally very sensitive to issues of oppression, so I am surprised and disappointed. Infosaturated, you were engaged with a great deal of patience over on enMasse, but you kept escalating your attempts to define trans people's own experiences and identities in a negative way.

A number of people on both boards, including me, are interested in learning more, and discussing the issues respectfully, which is great and important. The three of you have clearly already made up your minds about this. I expect that trans people will survive without your approval, they've survived plenty of disapproval, and a discussion board probably isn't going to make much of a difference. But I am ashamed that cisgendered people (which is not an insult, by the way) on progressive boards are contributing to the alienation of trans people, rather than understanding our privilege, and enlisting ourselves as allies.

I have written extensively on enMasse about my feelings as a feminist about including trans women in woman-only space, so there's no point in repeating it. Other than to reiterate that I do not see how we have anything to lose, and I see that we have a great deal to gain, by including trans women in feminism and women's spaces.

Honestly, though, it seems the discussion needs to be made even more basic than discussing trans inclusion in feminism. As progressive people, we need to become aware of the oppression faced by trans people, get educated about trans issues, and get engaged in helping to fight trans people's oppression. And only after that should we consider ourselves even remotely entitled to quibble about semantics around trans identity.

Or, better yet, let's not quibble. For you and me it's semantics. For transsexuals, it's their lives.

And I'm ashamed that trans people are reading these threads and realizing that our two discussion boards are two more places where they may not be welcome. Hence the guidelines we posted on EM that Michael reposted here. Oh, yeah, those guidelines were almost exactly word for word those that were developed by woman members for the feminism forum. A bit ironic, eh? 

Tehanu wrote:

Remind, I have read a lot of your posts on babble, and you seem like a person who is normally very sensitive to issues of oppression, so I am surprised and disappointed.

So nice of you to come over and share your disappoinment in me. :rolleyes:

Like I haven't heard that little guilt control trip before, in this patriarchial world, but admittedly it is usually from men and not feminists, nor even from other women who do not "self-identify" as feminists.

And frankly, I do not care, it is none of my business what you  think of me.

Seeing as how you are all into this cross board commentary, and with the imposition of en masse rules here,  I will say, having read all the posts at en masse,  that I completely agree with ALL Anne's commentary 100%. I know that a transgendered mtof has not experienced what I have experienced in life as a person born with a vagina, and all that goes with it. Just as I know that I have not experienced in life what it is like to be born and live with a penis and want a vagina. The reality is we are different and there is nothing wrong with that difference, nor with acknowleging it.

Being forced, or experiencing attempts to be forced, to ignore the very real and concrete differences is abuse and oppression. And it is my business, for my personal safety, as woman, to reject forced gender attributes, in part because I am physiologically different as a woman and thus my life experiences are different. And because I do not have to accept others view of what my self identifers, as a woman, are.

Our rights, as women,  to self determine, are based upon the acknowlegement that women, physiologically, are uniquely different than men. I know this to be true and care not if other persons refuse to acknowlege it,  but I do care when they want to suppress it and impose their gender descriptors upon me and interfere with my hard fought rights to self determine.

ETA: It is not semantics, for anyone, it is reality. It is just a different reality.