What should Toronto do with its garbage?

Questions, how many bags/cans of garbage are you allowed to put out each week? Is there a service charge for more than the limit, if there is a limit?

Toronto has lots of land for a landfill.

What London, --for the time being-- has that Toronto didn't was politically expedient land to use as a landfill.  Someday down the road, London and all other municipalities will face the same "crisis" as Toronto did, a lack of politically easy land to use as a dump.

Meanwhile, the city of San Francisco has a 60% diversion from landfill  because they've gone to mechanical and hand sorting garbage. And, as much as I don't like John Tory, he was right back during the mayoral debates when he said incineration should be looked at. 

To which Miller replied, and I paraphrase, "okay, in which neighborhood are you going to put the incinerator?"  which shows how keenly Miller understood this as a political problem, and not one of geography or physics.

If the province made no exceptions to the do not ship policy on garbage, we'd be a decade ahead of where we are now in terms of dealing with this garbage.

And, I wouldn't hold up London as a stellar example of garbage management.  Hardly.   For example, for me to dispose of my growing collection of batteries, I will have to drive all the way across town-- actually about half way between London and St. Thomas-- during a narrow window of opportunity on a Saturday, find the hazardous waste repository.  I suspect it's behind the  sign that says "beware of rabid tigers".  

Not  exactly user friendly.

Landfilling all our stuff is probably the worst alternative currently available to us.  No matter how you construct and locate a landfill, there's  always dust, allways leachate, and all those household chemical wastes end up in the water shed-- or as airborne dust-- sooner or later. 

The solution, for Toronto and everyone, is an agressive policy where manufacturers and retailers are told they cannot use packaging that can't be recycled.   And, I'm still for separating garbage at the consumer end to reduce how much mechanical and hand sorting has to be done at a depot.  And whatever can't be recycled at that point should be incinerated.

Good question Michelle.  I don't have any answers though - only questions! 

I found this article in the Star both interesting and depressing http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/660864

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The City of Toronto boasts that its green bin program diverts a third of our garbage and turns it into "black gold" compost. But a Star investigation shows that the program - although nobly conceived - is a sham.

When I moved here I found it odd that we didn't need to sort any of our recycling - it all gets lumped in together.  Is that how it is in other cities too or just here?  People like to recycle - it's easy and makes us feel good about ourselves.  But as soon as it's *too* difficult or inconvenient, we just throw things in the garbage - which is apparently where everything ends up anyway. 

I live in an apartment so I don't know how public pickup works.  Is there a limit on the number of bags we can put out?  

What percentage of Toronto's garbage is from residential versus commercial and industrial? 

Can I pipe in even though I have never been TO?

Here on PEI, we have a provincial crown corp. that now manages all waste in all areas of then province. There is a black bin for waste (non-compost, non-recyclable), a large outdoor green bin and a small green kitchen bin for compost and blue bags for recycling. Contents of the black bins are sorted and everything possible is incinerated to generate heat. The rules are very strict and people will often get bright orange "rejected" sticker if things are not sorted. Only clear bags are allowed in the black bins, so the contents are visible. Only compostable bags are allowed in the green bins. Batteries and other toxics are not accepted and must be returned to designated areas.

It was difficult at first to get everyone on board with sorting things, but there were lots of info sessions, etc. Now, our compost has been graded at "F" quality, however, due to the inability to completely control what is in their. The corp. has not been able to sell the compost due to the quality, farmers don't want to use it and they end up giving it away for free sporadically. This experience has caused me to somewhat doubt large-scale compost, so backyard composting is much better.

I can see how people in Michigan would be angry about Cdn garbage being shipped down to their area - I am not sure why TO can't find somewhere in Canada to put it?

I'm not sure I understand the moral superiority of burying one's garbage within city limits.   As long as the contracted municipality is a willing seller, and Toronto (or any other city) a willing buyer, why is it bad to bury your garbage elsewhere?

I can understand and appreciate arguments in favour of better diversion and so on, but there seems to be (and seemed, back when the site was in Michigan) some ill-defined sense that this is bad or irresponsible or some such.  Why the moral high handedness?

Thanks Michelle, seems to me garbage rates should go way up and aggressive re-cycling programs enforced or put in place. People produce lots of garabage because they can.

I live in a small community,  and even we do not have a land fill. Garbage must be separated into recycleable divisions, and if it is not and they can track you, you get a fine.

I'm not sure I understand the moral superiority of burying one's garbage within city limits.

It goes back to the idea that the garbage problem will continue as long as we are allowed to make it someone else's problem.  An idea that I think has much merit.

Wow, tommy 4 bags a week is a lot. We have about 1 1/2 bags per month.

Nanaimo, for example has, or used to have 5 years ago now, a 2 bag per 7 day week limit, or 1 smallish garbage can, and if you want(ed) more than that you have to buy tags to put on your bags/bins. No outdoor compostables are allowed either, it must go to the dumpt and you pay by weight. Every mall pretty much has huge recycle bins for cardboard, cans, plastic and paper and they are well used.

Disposable diapers need to be banned. As do all plastics.

Snert really not conflateable and i agree with Tommy,  farming out your garbage problems and making them someone else's is unacceptable.

ownership of responsibilities to one's own waste. Shall we start shipping our shit and piss to other nations so we don't have to pay for waste processing plants too, and say "well they wanted to buy it"?

Reminds me of an Aislin cartoon from way back, with two City of Toronto garbage trucks parked nose nose in front of the Sky Dome, with one driver saying "are you thinking what I'm thinking?" 

 Shall we start shipping our shit and piss to other nations so we don't have to pay for waste processing plants too, and say "well they wanted to buy it"?

I don't know about our bodily waste, but some of our electronic waste is being shipped to Asia, where women take apart the cicuit boards with bare hands. Cadmium, finger licken' good.   And, when the ships that carry that waste are themselves turned into waste, they are taken to Bangledesh ship breaking yards, Where workers in bare feet take acetalyne torches to them and cut them to pieces.  Unless they blow up because of residual fuel in pipe, then the job gets done quicker.    I forget the life expectancy  of Bangledeshi ship breakers, but it's jaw droppingly short.

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ownership of responsibilities to one's own waste.

Why is my garbage more of a moral responsibility for me than anything else is? If someone wants to buy it, and I want to sell it, why am I supposed to refuse to enter into that agreement on some kind of "it's MY responsibility" grounds?

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Shall we start shipping our shit and piss to other nations so we don't have to pay for waste processing plants too, and say "well they wanted to buy it"?

If they want to buy it, why not?  We'd be paying either way, so it's really not like we'd be walking away from "our responsibility".

Ironically, though, this all seems to fall apart at the individual level.  If I pay the City to take my garbage, that's perfectly fine.  I'm a responsible citizen following the rules.  But if the City pays someone else, we've all somehow collectively shirked our responsibility??

Heck, during the strike, labour-friendly citizens were urged NOT to deal with their own garbage, but to wait for someone else to carry it away for them.  And you're still talking about "taking responsibility for your own waste"??

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Your anology doesn't fit, because your narrow example of grass cutting doesn't account for how the actually costs of burying your garbage eleswhere transfers costs to people who have not entered into the contract.

I'm assuming the municipalities who contract to landfill garbage are doing so willingly.  Are you saying they aren't, and can you back that?  Or who are these unwilling??

I'm assuming the municipalities who contract to landfill garbage are doing so willingly.  Are you saying they aren't, and can you back that?  Or who are these unwilling??

The Toronto Dump, located some 200 km outside of Toronto is a private  landfill.  So, no one was consulted, no one profits excepts Green Lane.  Of course, that had to pass provincial approval.  But  with our current system where a "majority" government exists with something around a quarter of the popular vote, your attachement to some democraticly expressed will or  approval is somewhat tenous at best, Snert. 

remind wrote:

Ban disposable diapers.

Ban single use plastic bags.

Ban disposable feminine hygine products too. (said to make a point, not really serious)

I'm reminded of Don Delillo's Underworld, for some reason.

In that book, one of the characters contends that dumps should be in the middle of the city, always in our sight, rather than buried in mines, shipped away, or piling up in trash mountains outside the city limits. It's a view consonant with Tommy's 'within the city limits' suggestion: if we saw what our garbage was, if we could see it, well, we'd be a little more pressured to do something about it. There is a reason why Toronto has curbside composting and London doesn't.

In a capitalist society, waste is an expression of wealth, illustrated only too well by Snert's innocent, if fetishistic, free-market example. If we can throw our waste onto someone else's shoulders, then it proves we are better off, even if it is our waste, a product of our hyperconsumption. The same dynamic operates with nuclear waste and carbon credits. But if we had to confront our own waste--you can bet we would figure out how to solve a lot of problems pretty quickly.

HeywoodFloyd wrote:

Ban disposable feminine hygine products too. (said to make a point, not really serious)

The Keeper

Quote:

Simple to use, both The Moon Cup and The Keeper are innovative feminine hygiene products that are worn internally, freeing women from dependency on cumbersome, uncomfortable, expensive, paper-based products. Economical, efficient, comfortable, and environment-friendly, reusable menstrual cups are attractive alternatives to other feminine hygiene products. Made by a woman for women, The Keeper (natural gum rubber - i.e., latex) and The Moon Cup (medical grade silicone - i.e., non-latex) are both FDA-approved and the only menstrual cups made in America.

Ghislaine wrote:

I still cannot believe remind is calling for a ban on disposible diapers?? You are using a plastic computer, yet you want to punish new parents - probably the busiest amoung us? I would love to see you walk into a daycare anywhere in this country and tell them you think disposible diapers should be banned. I am sure their reaction would be totally wonderful.

Try banning plastics in your own life first, and then let us know how it works out. (since you won't be able to use a computer or a telephone, and I am sure the mail will need to be flown on planes with plastic in them from BC... I have no idea how you are going to tell us).

Punish new parents?  Get real! I was a working parent who took her child to day care ffs, and I did not use disposables. The day care simply threw them into the container I provided, and which I took home when I picked up my daughter.

Plastic backed diapers are nasty harsh on the environment...perhaps have an internet search about it to inform yourself before you have children! There are great velcro cloth diapers, shaped exactly like disposables, or get yourself a diaper service.

I have long advocated getting rid of plastics, and the implimentation of hemp fibre hard surfaced products instead, here. Have you ever done any thinking on what the contued use of plastics will mean to  society and the world environmentally?

And I have banned as many plastics as possible from my life, and have done so for decades.

Heywood, there are actually adult diaper services on VIsland and plastic sanitary needs for women should be banned too.

Check out the prices of a diaper service heywood,  and compare with what you spend on disposable diapers and garbage bags to hold em all. It has been my experience that diaper services come out about the same as what you would spend on  the costs of disposable diapers per month.

We going to keep cutting down trees to satisfy the disposable diaper demand?  Which is above and beyond the plastics used in them and their environmental impact at all levels.

Also..if your other kids are over 4-5, make them do their own laundry, and I mean wash, dry, fold and put away.

Fair enough. I'll look into a service and see if it will cost the same or close enough. ( with three kids cost is a major driver).

Snert wrote:

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Plastic backed diapers are nasty harsh on the environment...perhaps have an internet search about it to inform yourself before you have children! There are great velcro cloth diapers, shaped exactly like disposables, or get yourself a diaper service.

Whoa! Huh? Don't you mean "offload your responsibility on some diaper service"?

Good grief. Are we supposed to "take responsibility" or aren't we?

No, not all, you have already disposed of your waste, the service is merely washing your private clothing needs, just as if you took your clothes to the dry cleaners or laundry.

Moreover, they wash in bulk, and it is a huge environmental savings by way of water, power, and chemical detergents etc..

Not the same thing at all, as you well know snert, and FYI, I am getting really sick of your baiting commentary in all the threads, you never contribute anything else, ever, and hopefully someday the mods will decide to do something about it.

Ya me too, pogo, I don't understand this whole 'convienence'  and time saving thing!

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In Canada alone the environmental impact of diapers is significant. Over 4 million disposable diapers are discarded each day. Excluding newspapers, beverage and food containers, diapers are the leading contributor to municipal solid waste, accounting for 2.5%. "It is estimated that each year 250,000 tonnes of disposable diapers end up in the garbage ("Environmental Choice Program")."

Not only are they filling up our landfills, but once they are there they do not cease to cause problems. Disposable diapers are not decomposing because they do not have the right conditions (air and sunlight) to do this in a landfill. Instead they prevent precious rain water from soaking into the ground, and the water that does soak in is potentially contaminated with harmful diseases and bacteria. What many parents don't know is that the World Health Organization banned the disposal of urine and feces in solid waste in the 1970s. If you look on a package of disposable diapers you will find a notice instructing you to dump soil in the toilet before discarding. Viruses (often from infant vaccinations) from feces disposed of in landfills can get into groundwater and can be potentially harmful.

Disposable diapers have an impact on the environment in their production as well. One American statistic stated that "82,000 tons of plastic and 1.8 million tons of wood pulp (1/4 million trees) are consumed each year in the production of disposable diapers (Smith and Pitts)." This is huge when compared to cloth diapers when we realize that many of today's cloth diapers are made from renewable resources such as bamboo and hemp . As well, there is an increasing trend towards organic cotton, grown free of pesticides and harmful chemicals.

With regards to the environmental impact of diapers, the general population is unaware that there is actually a third diapering alternative; the flushable diaper (the most popular of these being the gDiaper

ETA: Note to Ghislaine; If day cares are not dumping the solid wastes into the toilet, from disposable diapers, before throwing them away, they are breaking the law. So there is no time difference to their efforts in dumping the solids from a cloth diaper and throwing the cloth diaper into a container provided by the parents.

That's a point, Jabberwock, that I wanted to make earlier.

We in Canada think of this as a big fricken huge country,  which it is.  But in terms of arable land, we are not anywhere as big as we think we are. 

I live almost as far south in this country as one can.  Yet, within a few hours drive north,--probably about an hour-- it's too cold for apple trees. And another hour or so, and the season is too short for corn. 

We think this country is limitless, yet in certain terms we are a small country.  There's really not enough room to be considering landfills in any of what geologists call the level II area of Ontario.  Which is not to say we should be shipping it all to the boreal forest on the shield, but really, in context of the reality, landfills in southern Ontario in particular are insane.