United Church of Canada in bed with the CJC

I find the pejorative use of the expression "in bed with" to be both anti-sex and covertly sexist. Can't we do better?

martin dufresne wrote:

I find the pejorative use of the expression "in bed with" to be both anti-sex and covertly sexist. Can't we do better?

 

How about "United Church Of Canada has an unsafe, kinky quickie with the CJC up against the narthax wall"?

More time is spent on CJC than any other advocacy group here on Babble.

Winnifred wrote:

More time is spent on CJC than any other advocacy group here on Babble.

More time is spent by CJC on Babble than any other advocacy group, Bernie.

"I apologize profusely for accusing Bernie of babbling!!!"

[i]- Kathy English[/i]

From the school of Groucho, and just as entertaining.

Let us, please, require further treatment of the topic in this vein!  PLease.

If the CJC represented the Jewish people, I might agree with you, Jaku.

I must be living in an Alice in Wonderland universe. According to the Ottawa Citizen article posted by jacu, the supporting documents on the UCC website accuse MPs of holding dual israel/Canada citizenship (is this suppose to be bad?) yet no one in parliament holds such dual citizenship. Further are babblers now claining its OK to accuse Canadian Jews of bribing MPs? So do people here feel its OK to lie about Jews in canada? What's wrong with this picture?

Ken Burch wrote:

How about "United Church Of Canada has an unsafe, kinky quickie with the CJC up against the narthax wall"?

Much better. But still, where's the problem? Oh - the unsafe bit.

Winnifred wrote:

Further are babblers now claining its OK to accuse Canadian Jews of bribing MPs? So do people here feel its OK to lie about Jews in canada? What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with this picture is your use of the Big Lie technique. Who accused Canadian Jews of bribing MPs, please? Or is this like, "why are they accusing U.S. Jews of running Ponzi schemes", meaning Bernie Madoff?

The dirty Ottawa Citizen editorial interprets every reference in UC documents to "Israel" as being a code for "Jews". That's the oldest anti-semitic trope in the book. You wouldn't happen to share that, would you?

Jaku wrote:

I thought this editorial I found in the Ottawa Citizen gave good perspective

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Pray+United+Church/1867005/story.html

That article is such a pile of rubbish.

Quote:

The United Church of Canada isn't the first organization that hatemongers have tried to convert into a vehicle for attacking Israel. Labour unions, student associations, even a camping store (Mountain Equipment Co-op) have had to fight off similar hijackings, not always successfully.

I was not really clear on the meaning of anti-semite until recently. Imagine how confused I was when I looked up the meaning of [u]semite[/u], thinking that anti-semite would be one who harbours an irrational or immoral prejudice against any semite.

This shameless article attempts to conflate opposition to Israeli actions with the harm done to Israel, anti-zionism, anti-semitism and even a challenge of its right to exist.

The boycott of Israel products and the call for sanctions against Israel by some trade unions, student associations and other citizen activist groups are about Israel's illegal siezure and occupation of Palestinian land and homes; the treatment of its arab citizens; about Israels refusal to recognize the rights of the Palestinians to exist, as equals.

This article, long on opinion and short of facts, is not journalism, it's an attempt to manufacture consent.

martin dufresne wrote:

I find the pejorative use of the expression "in bed with" to be both anti-sex and covertly sexist. Can't we do better?

 

Oh, for crying out loud!

Unionist is hitting the nail on the head, several times over:
The "leadership" of the United Church does pander to the CJC, especially in public. Many of the staff and a great many of its 600,000 plus members and 2 million-odd adherents do not. Please don't equate all of us with our bureaucracy.

The last minute insertion of "Jewish state" into the Middle East policy wording voted on at the last General Council was clever as hell, was both the work of the CJC reps present AND the UCC members who support the CJC, and has far reaching impacts that were very poorly understood by the majority who voted for that wording change. A great deal of symbolic and practical weight rests on those words and this time out we're starting to see the impact.

I think it's worth noting that the Moderator is not a Pope. He does not and cannot speak for local churches, and is choosing for reasons of his own to put a hell of a lot of emphasis on the "Jewish state" phrasing in our policy, rather than on decades worth of criticism of the State of Israel's actions. But that's *his* choice-- it does not mean that everything local churches do and say must first assume Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. In reality, though, most of our membership likely believes just that and only long term education and a lot of polite arguing over bad Sunday morning coffee is going to change that. I'd rather put my energy into changing local opinion, because Moderators and bureaucrats come and go.

As for the thread title-- I disagree. The United Church is scared stiff of the CJC. It is not in bed with the CJC. Many oppose what the CJC is about, and many more simply don't know what to think. For all that I find my church to be often hierarchical and controlling, a lot of our policy still comes down to the will of people who may be totally new to the issue. And the way that policy is lived out depends on the people who sit in the pews and gather at midweek meetings. it's a typically messy and convoluted grassroots reality.

That it is scared is both ludicrous and a symptom of how well misguided guilt motivates the church. It's also a testimony to the reality that anti-Semitism is alive and well in many scriptural interpretations. Because Israel=Jews for many well intentioned UCC members, all any pro-Israeli rabbi has to do is link historic (and ongoing) Christian anti Semitism with any criticism of Israel, and bingo-- you wind up with fear at best and utter support for the CJC at worst.

I am having trouble pasting this in so apologies for bad formatting.

Green Grouch, thank you so much for your post and for confirming what I know, through personal experience, about very many UC congregants and churches. They are staunch allies of labour and of many progressive causes. I can readily believe that overcoming the blackmail of these particular Zionist toadies will not be a short-term or easy task, and I wish you good luck in that. Meanwhile, I hope at least that someone explains to Mr. Giuliano that referring to Israel as a "Jewish state"; making declarations about what the "majority of the Jews" think; and saying that countless Jews would have survived the Holocaust had Israel been there; that these are all deeply offensive statements which he, as a religious person, should have the shame and decency to avoid.

Wonderful thought and control police.

Wonderfully diverse and sensitive positions, with lots of insight and even some onsite accounts. They can make it really "interesting" for Bernie.  Thanks, Loretta.

And the language. Apparently not one asshole resides there.

An excerpt from this...

Jewish Congress accuses United Church debate proposal of anti-Semitism

Quote:

All decried Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, but the Montreal-Ottawa submission also urged the church to publicly state that the Palestinians must acknowledge Israel's right to exist and must stop suicide bombings and other violent attacks on the Israeli people.

According to the wikipedia pages on Hamas and other links I have found, Hamas ceased suicide bombings in 2005, renounced them altogether in 2006. Suicide bombings still occur often in Iraq and Afghanistan, but NOT Israel.

Israel put the Gaza strip under siege in 2006 after Gaza elected Hamas in free and fair elections.  Militants and resistance fighters in Gaza have built tunnels to smuggle goods.  Israel occasionally bombs them. These resistance fighters have also launched homemade rockets and mortars aimed at Israeli border towns and settlements; over 3000 in 2008 alone.  As a weapon of terror, the rockets are pretty lame. Not one Israeli civilian fatality was recorded in 2008 as a result a rocket or mortar attack.

Contrast those numbers with the number of Palestians in Gaza killed or wounded (1,300 and 5,400, ove 30% children) in 3 short weeks at the beginning of this year. Operation Cast Lead, as it was called by the Israeli Defense Forces, was immoral and way out of proportion with the past harm inflicted upon Israel.  This "retaliation" has been roundly condemned worldwide but Israel has largely escaped sanctions or consequences for this; what some consider to be an act of terror in itself.

I think the UCC Montreal-Ottawa request for acknowledgement on the right to exist could be expanded a little.  It strikes me a a little one sided.

Israel continues to seize land owned by arabs in Jerusalem and continues to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank, in clear violation of international law and world court rulings. Her arab citizens are clearly second class with subjugated rights, driven by the desire to establish a truly Jewish state. 

If this is what the Jewish state of Israel is meant to be; an aparthied state; then we have every right to question our support and recognition towards this end. The people of Israel do not have to choose this course and if world pressure must be brought to bear upon Israel to change its ways, like it did in South Africa, than so be it.

Opposition to Israeli politics in not anti-semitiic, anti-jewish or anti-zionist.  Bernie Farber is using shameless propoganda to stifle debate and free speech in this country by labeling those who care enough to debate or question our support for Israel as anti-semetic. It's the BIG LIE in action.

Back off Bernie, the Ernst Zundel of the Jewish community, we can see your buttocks bellowing.

Jaku wrote:

 Farber is a descendant of Holocaust survivors.

So is Norman Finkelstein.  So is Tony Judt.  So is Amira Hass.  That doesn't stop people on your side of the I/P issue from viciously attacking THEM.  Is there some reason that counts for more in Farber's case?

Maysie wrote:

Diogenes wrote:

 Back off Bernie, the Ernst Zundel of the Jewish community,

Diogenes, don't say anything like this again. This is a warning.

So comparing one practitioner of the BIG LIE to another practitioner of the BIG LIE is worthy of censure here?  Faber's constantly equating opposition to Israeli politics with anti-semitism and using it to stifle or shape debate, comment and policy from our political, acedemic and (now) religious institutions.  Zundel was Canada's poster boy for holocaust denial (for those old enough to remember).

Zundel was charged with hate crimes, deported and jailed.

Farber has the ear of our government and was key in having British MP George Galloway banned from our country. Farbers' organization gives Prime Minister Stephen Harper a "human rights" award at the same time that our Federal court is admonishing our government for ignoring our Charter of Rights (Abdelrazik).  And Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff praises the CJC for being the 'conscience of Canada' at the same awards ceremony!

Sorry, but Farber has compomised the the reputation of Canada more than that marginal fruitcake Zundel ever did.

M. Spector wrote:

OFFS!

??? uh what does this mean?

Is it OK to compare Michael Ignatieff to Alfred E. Neuman?

Diogenes wrote:

Maysie wrote:

Diogenes wrote:

 Back off Bernie, the Ernst Zundel of the Jewish community,

Diogenes, don't say anything like this again. This is a warning.

So comparin

g one practitioner of the BIG LIE to another practitioner of the BIG LIE is worthy of censure here?  Faber's constantly equating opposition to Israeli politics with anti-semitism and using it to stifle or shape debate, comment and policy from our political, acedemic and (now) religious institutions.  Zundel was Canada's poster boy for holocaust denial (for those old enough to remember).

Zundel was charged with hate crimes, deported and jailed.

Farber has the ear of our government and was key in having British MP George Galloway banned from our country. Farbers' organization gives Prime Minister Stephen Harper a "human rights" award at the same time that our Federal court is admonishing our government for ignoring our Charter of Rights (Abdelrazik).  And Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff praises the CJC for being the 'conscience of Canada' at the same awards ceremony!

Sorry, but Farber has compomised the the reputation of Canada more than that marginal fruitcake Zundel ever did.

Suggesting that passionate discussion on world events where people differ sometimes even with great distatste of each other is somehow similar to denying the murder of 6 million Jews is retrograde. I do expect to find such comparisions on racist sites where it is common place to personally attack Jewish leaders in such a manner. I would never have expected to see it here.

So you vehemently disagree with Farber. You don't like his politics. You don't like that he is a Zionist. That then makes it OK to compare him to Canada's most evil and notorious racist and anti-Semite? What's wrong with you people? Have you taken leave of your senses?

You have diminished your arguments and by extension have embarassed and belittled Rabble with this libelous comment. Grow up!

Out of my league, now.  Fear of "god" has set in. After a lifetime of battling the forces of anti-semitism, I'm scared . I suppose that is the desired effect for those who see no change in Israel between, oh , 1967 and the present.(Wonder if I used - again - that bit from 1967 about my dancing with joy at Israel's ability to resist being thrown into the sea...and the doubts setting in, less than two decades later, as to the wisdom of my actions/thoughts, on those few fine, summer days  so long ago? If I'd known what was coming down the pike I would have added many qualifications, would have lectured the ether on the corrupting effect of power and absolute power, and the opiate of religion, etc.

 But maybe I could summon up the courage of those UCCers in  that marvelous chat group where they are not threatened with perdition, shaming through the IT world.