But I'm afraid, even if I got in as a tourist, any attempts to whisper into the nearest cleric's shell-like ear might get me incarcerated. 
Ahmadinejad won indeed, and the real source of interference in Iran's election is likely the United States
Mon, 2009-08-10 07:49
#52
Mon, 2009-08-10 09:53
#53
We could go on as Abbot and Costello.
I'm sure there are better examples of the straightman delivery for use in this instance, but none come to mind as I fight for air.
Mon, 2009-08-10 11:34
#54
Mousavi was (and is) a leftist Islamist, as many Khomeini's disicples (and Khomeini himself) were.
Khomeini was a leftist?
Sanizadeh, you posted on that just before I was about to.
I will anyway, though I bow to your greater knowledge and welcome personal insights.
===
That is how I feebly understand it.
On the economic front Khomeini' s "Neither West nor East but Islam" meant neither cuthroat capitalism nor godless state Marxism. There was conflict between economic directions and Market capitalists gained the upper hand in the 1990's. Ahmadinejad, far from the "poor peoples candidate" is a continuation of that corporatist consolidation.
A recent illustration of that is here:
Iran privatizes 14 more state companies
Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:13:52 GMT....
During its first term, the Ahmadinejad government privatized hundreds of state companies and promised to accelerate the process during its second term.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=102386§ionid=351020102
Mon, 2009-08-10 12:01
#55
Khomeini was a leftist?
On economy he was as left as any Islamic (Shia) cleric could go. During 80s his government implemented complete state control of major industries and businesses, price control, state-controlled health care, issued a decree to confiscate abandoned properties for the government (a complete no-no for other top clerics), and focus on rural areas and villages.
Mon, 2009-08-10 12:08
#56
Contrarianna, the situation in Iran cannot be really discussed from a pure economy-based or market-based viewpoint. There is not any real socialist force within the political hierarchy in Iran. However, generally you are right in that Ahmadinejad's government has not taken any specific social/economic action that should earn left's admiration. I woudl be happy to discuss if anyone can name a specific achievement.
Mon, 2009-08-10 12:44
#57
The socialism of the People's Mujahedin of Iran was scary, not socialist, somethiing else, sanizadeh? They apparently date from 1967.
Socialism is anathema to a clerical state. What can be offered other than the corporatist entity we see...the smaller entities being privatized.
Clearly, the provision of nuclear power to generate electricity suggests that science has a place. That and the previous freedom of one scientist to flog secrets for nuclear weaponry round the world. Or do I have his nationality wrong?
Mon, 2009-08-10 12:53
#58
Contrarianna, the situation in Iran cannot be really discussed from a pure economy-based or market-based viewpoint....
Yes, that's understood, the issue of "leftism" was raised by others.
The fact that there were "hundreds of companies" (including in the oil industry) for Ahmadinejad's government to privatize suggest a pre-existing level of socialism not present in much of the West.
Mon, 2009-08-10 13:00
#59
Very good point.
So does the new owning class represent another repressive force? The beholden? They won't really have the socially freeing effect of the petty bourgeoisie in the liberal revolutions of our experience?
Mon, 2009-08-10 13:22
#60
The socialism of the People's Mujahedin of Iran was scary, not socialist, somethiing else, sanizadeh? They apparently date from 1967.
It is difficult to pin point the ideology of PMOI as they have changed their ideology as many times as one changes underwear. Started as a radical Islamist militia, then switched to marxism, back to islamism, again back to a mixture of islamism with social democracy slogans etc. The goup is more like a cult that tries to get to the power with whatever ideology that is the flavour of the month. Shady human rights record as well, in particular about their alleged collaboration with Saddam Hossein in suppressing Kurdish rebelion in early 90s (Anfal rebelion).Their fall out with Khomeini in the early years of the revolution had a lot more to do with the fact that Khomeini did not share power with them. Some call them Ayatollahs without turban.
However, you should note that like many other Iranians I am biased against this group because of their close collaboration with Iraq during Iran-Iraq war.
Mon, 2009-08-10 14:06
#61
However, you should note that like many other Iranians I am biased against this group because of their close collaboration with Iraq during Iran-Iraq war.
You, and I would think, most other Iranians who have relatives in a graveyard complements of Sadaam's war on Iran--that is, most other Iranians.
Faux endorsers of Iranian freedom are absurdly suggesting this hated group could be the vanguard of a popular uprising in Iran and are urging support for it--it's hard to conceive of the real outcome being anything but supporting chaos and mayhem.
Terry Glavin has urged support for it and argued it should be removed from the Canadian terrorist list.
Tue, 2009-08-11 00:49
#62
New Nuke Report Debunks Iran Hawks
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH11Ak01.html
"Iran is unlikely to be able to produce enough highly enriched uranium (HEU) for a nuclear weapon until at least 2013, according to a US government intelligence estimate.."
Iran: Ahmadinejad's Predicament and Iran's Political Crisis
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48024
"despite the proclaimed support of 24 million Iranians, his government is by far the weakest post-revolutionary government. Ironically, it is this weakened position that tempts him to be a force of constant agitation and confrontation."
Chomsky on Iran
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/3391.cfm
"Well, protests against the nature of the regime..It's a clerical, military regime. Putting aside the details of the election, about which we do not know much, the whole structure of the regime is oppressive and authoritarian and undermines basic civil and other human rights, and protesting against it is not only honorable but courageous, because it faces extreme violence. So yes, I have to honor what they are doing.."
Wed, 2009-08-12 12:32
#63
Chomsky on Iran:
"Well, protests against the nature of the regime..It's a clerical, military regime. Putting aside the details of the election, about which we do not know much, the whole structure of the regime is oppressive and authoritarian and undermines basic civil and other human rights, and protesting against it is not only honorable but courageous, because it faces extreme violence. So yes, I have to honor what they are doing.."
And I guess Chomsky does not see a U.S. bogeyman among the flag-waving protesters.
Wed, 2009-08-12 15:11
#64
....
And I guess Chomsky does not see a U.S. bogeyman among the flag-waving protesters.
I see no logic in that simplistic either/or statement:
Because Chomsky does not support the Iranian theo-thugocracy and supports the protests and people's opposition to the regime does not mean that he believes the US has anything resembling clean hands in its threats of military attack and funding terrorist organizations (which ultimately consolidate the regimes hold).
There is no more reason to believe the US wants democracy in Iran now than when it overthrew the democratically elected government in 1953. The continuance of the US hegemony in the region (ratified in recent publicly available US Strategic Planning Guidance documents) depends on subservience, or, in lieu of that, mayhem.
====
July 24, 2009
Transcript
AMY GOODMAN: Prominent Iranian dissident, human rights activist, and former political prisoner Akbar Ganji. He was translated by Faramarz Farbod.Well, for the hundreds-strong crowd at the hunger strike, a highlight of the afternoon was the brief visit from Noam Chomsky, who was inside the United Nations speaking and who stopped by, when he came outside, to say a few words of support for the actions of the Iranian protesters.
NOAM CHOMSKY: There has been a mass of commentary in the last couple of weeks about Iran, a very confident commentary. The confidence increases, the less the people know about it. And I don’t want to contribute to that, so I will not make any confident statements about the facts.
There are some things that are indisputable: the courageous resistance of Iranians to the harsh repressive regime and its brutal military forces, and the appeal for the freedom of political prisoners—old themes that, there, remain inspiring worldwide, another reason for greatly admiring Iranian culture and Iranian society and its ability to continue the struggles, which have just been a beacon of light for people engaged in similar struggles elsewhere.
That’s not only true of the resistance, but also of the capacity, the capacity to steer a very difficult course between, on the one hand, resisting harsh regime and its brutal military, on one hand; on the other hand, staying clear of succumbing to the machinations of Iran’s enemies, who want to exploit this for their own ugly purposes. It’s not an easy way to proceed, the Iranian struggle. For decades, it’s succeeded in doing it, and that, too, is an inspiration. I mean, as an American, I can’t avoid bringing up the fact that for over fifty years there’s hardly been a moment when the United States has not been torturing the people of Iran, one way or another. Different forms of torture, but just continuous, endless. That’s a horrifying shame for Americans.[emphasis mine]
http://i3.democracynow.org/2009/7/24/fmr_iranian_political_prisoners_rel...
Wed, 2009-08-12 19:41
#65
Yes, indeed, That has been my understanding from the time the Shah took power.
But I sort of thought that in this, the U.S. was only a background presence, its "freedoms" 
. It would be a surremely stupid move on the part of the protesters to have it any other way. (Not that that is going to save them from some nasty fate. Those freedoms are harder to come by there.)
Guess I'm jsut "with Noam Chomsky" on this...have been on just about everything for half my life. Or are you reading something into his statement, that there is a U.S. presence influencing the protesters ?
Wed, 2009-08-12 19:45
#66
Thanks, Contrarianna, excellent defensive tackle!
Wed, 2009-08-12 21:24
#67
Guess I'm jsut "with Noam Chomsky" on this...have been on just about everything for half my life. Or are you reading something into his statement, that there is a U.S. presence influencing the protesters ?
No, nor have I said anything to that effect.
The notion of popular freedom movements, in general, as being foreign instigated is not a picture that generally makes believable sense to me.
(I do not consider the bankrolling terrorist attacks by fringe groups as "influencing the protesters".)
In fact, quite the contrary, there is no reason to believe there is real enthusiasm from the governments of the US and Israel for a popular movement for a liberalizing and more rational government in Iran any more now than there was preceding the election:
False Sorrow for the People of Iranby Muhammad Sahimi, July 06, 2009
In the days before Iran’s presidential elections on June 12, the War Party and the Israel lobby began worrying about the possibility of the victory of Mir Hossein Mousavi, the main reformist candidate. They worried that his victory would take away the main propaganda weapon against Iran, namely, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his incendiary, inaccurate, but inconsequential rhetoric about the Holocaust and Israel. They considered Ahmadinejad to be “Israel’s greatest gift,” and they wanted him to win reelection.
Mousavi said Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric against Israel and the West and the inflexibility in his nuclear policy had hurt Iran’s national interests and security. He promised that, if elected, he would pursue a sober and flexible foreign policy that would preserve Iran’s vital interests but also enable it to reach an accommodation with the West. Mousavi’s promises were not what the War Party and the Israel lobby wanted to hear, since for years their goal has been convincing the public that there is no solution to the confrontation with Iran but a military one....
see the original article for links to key claims
http://original.antiwar.com/sahimi/2009/07/05/false-sorrow-for-the-peopl...
Thu, 2009-08-13 06:29
#68
But I'm afraid, even if I got in as a tourist, any attempts to whisper into the nearest cleric's shell-like ear might get me incarcerated.
The economic sanctions led by the U.S. and U.S. and Israeli saber rattling could be causing this paranoia among the Iranian establishment:
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2009/08/12/wag-the-dog-again/
Thu, 2009-08-13 08:12
#69
I was only making an observation (that Chomsky seems to support) that there is no direct U.S.ionvolvement in the decision to protest. You have eswtablished the reasoning for a fine plot theory, but I don't see that anything Chomsky has said, is reason to believe it was acted on by agents of subversion, for reasons I have state. It would be foolishly counterproductive in a place where torture can extract such beginnings of such events
As for you, Martin, I've no idea where you are coming from on this, out-of-the-blue observation about "tackling" - one day after grand protestations about a need for peace in babble - but you at the moment are acting like one huge hypocrite.l
I have flagged your post.
Thu, 2009-08-13 09:00
#70
As for you, Martin, I've no idea where you are coming from on this, out-of-the-blue observation about "tackling" - one day after grand protestations about a need for peace in babble - but you at the moment are acting like one huge hypocrite. I have flagged your post.
If that's all it takes, in future, I'll be sure to tread lightly.
Thu, 2009-08-13 12:29
#71
Always take your posts as "light", Jack.
But you, too, seem to have taken nothing from exhaustive back and forths on the effect of sniping from the sidelines. If you have nothing substantive to add, then you are just coming on as a smartass.
I post here to try to learn something. Even read books with that in mind.
Do a sanizadeh or a contrariana or STFU. Thanks.
Thu, 2009-08-13 14:34
#72
Always take your posts as "light", Jack. But you, too, seem to have taken nothing from exhaustive back and forths on the effect of sniping from the sidelines. If you have nothing substantive to add, then you are just coming on as a smartass. I post here to try to learn something. Even read books with that in mind. Do a sanizadeh or a contrariana or STFU. Thanks.
You post here to shovel your rancid neo-colonialist swill down everyone's throat, to be exact George. And for all of that book learnin of yours, reducing it down to chatspeak invective is not convincing in the slightest. Learning isn't a priority here so much as teaching what you know.
Thu, 2009-08-13 15:11
#73
Still light on facts, Jack. But seems you've fallen off the otherwordly accounting .
You certainly don't have to read works like Fatah's (I take it you have not and will not), and clearly the fella has some serious faults, but you are, in effect, asking me to not read anything that you see as "rancid neo-colonialist swill".
Sorry, but other people also take the trouble to read and to post those readings. And from that I can begin to understand that it is not just the simple world situation of colonialism versus progressive revolutionary out there, or in their armchairs. Learning more about the few thousand humans parked out in the desert of eastern Iraq, for instance (People's Mujahadin of Iran) awaiting their fate, helps me to divorce myself from use of the catch-phrases employed by the "decided", some of whom I would not bother to try to understand, let alone label.
Thu, 2009-08-13 15:24
#74
Okay, you two. Ding ding ding. Round over. :)
Thu, 2009-08-13 16:11
#75
Corporate media and Netanyahu are dumb enough to think that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It's not clear the uprising can be said to be anti theocratic entirely. It is pro democratic, so it is opposed to the autocratic components of theocracy, It is apparently not opposed to the idea of an Islamic republic, with the emphasis on republic rather than Islamic. From the point of view of a human riights supporter (the only POV that has anything to say about other countries behavior) that's better than the other way around.
Thu, 2009-08-13 16:41
#76
Corporate media and Netanyahu are dumb enough to think that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It's not clear the uprising can be said to be anti theocratic entirely. It is pro democratic, so it is opposed to the autocratic components of theocracy, It is apparently not opposed to the idea of an Islamic republic, with the emphasis on republic rather than Islamic. From the point of view of a human riights supporter (the only POV that has anything to say about other countries behavior) that's better than the other way around.
How can you have an Islamic Republic WITHOUT focus on Islam?
Thu, 2009-08-13 20:56
#77
It's quite possible that the Pentagon (U.S.), MI-6 (U.K.) and Mossad (Israel) may have 'fixed' the Iranian elections or at least knew that Amadinejad would win (which is what they want) and that they also funded and instigated some of the protesters to add the additional element of chaos and instability in Iran - which (for them) makes the situation 'better' and is also what they want.
Thu, 2009-08-13 23:41
#78
It's quite possible that the Pentagon (U.S.), MI-6 (U.K.) and Mossad (Israel) may have 'fixed' the Iranian elections or at least knew that Amadinejad would win (which is what they want) and that they also funded and instigated some of the protesters to add the additional element of chaos and instability in Iran - which (for them) makes the situation 'better' and is also what they want.
Let me put it this way: while no doubt foreigners and intelligence services have tried sice the 1979 revolution to influence the situation in Iran, I cannot name a single significant event inside Iran for the past 30 years, pro- or anti- government, that has ever been a direct result of foreigners work. In many ways, Iran has been the most independent nation in the world in the past 30 years. Everything that has happened there, good or bad, was done by Iranians.
Thu, 2009-08-13 23:46
#79
It's not clear the uprising can be said to be anti theocratic entirely. It is pro democratic, so it is opposed to the autocratic components of theocracy, It is apparently not opposed to the idea of an Islamic republic, with the emphasis on republic rather than Islamic. From the point of view of a human riights supporter (the only POV that has anything to say about other countries behavior) that's better than the other way around.
The emphasis on "republic" in Islamic Republic is just a step to eventually drop the "Islamic" adjective from it completely. That's not to say a large portion of Iranian nation does not remain religious, but that a theocratic government will not have much support.
Fri, 2009-08-14 09:27
#80
Iran Oil: Exploration Going Private
http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090811070304/lok/070300090811
Iran's Privatization Organization has been given the go-ahead to privatize 80% of the rights to explore oil in the north and Caspian sea regions.."
Sat, 2009-08-15 07:14
#81
Here are some interesting articles:
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/08/14/in-iran-reformists-call-for-investiga...
"Thus, decades of U.S. hostility toward Iran, and sanctions and military threats and attacks have had a net result: the efforts by the courageous people of Iran in establishing a democratic political system has been thwarted by undemocratic... groups, who have used the militarist policy of the U.S. toward Iran as their excuse to suppress freedom."
http://original.antiwar.com/sahimi/2009/08/14/role-of-us-militarism-in-a...
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=103483§ionid=351020101
Sat, 2009-08-15 08:43
#82
Heard on CBC radio yesterday, from unspecified sources, of jailed protesters being very badly abused physically, and worse. This was not unexpected, but does anyone have any sources pointing to the extent of this? (Now that the excitement of the election results are over and we wait for a world press to report on the results of its earlier work?)
Just caught this on one of your links, frmsldr:
"In fact, one of those putting forth the allegations, Reformist candidate Mehdi Karrobui, has gotten into some hot water of his own over claims of sexual abuse in the prisons. Top right-wing cleric Ayatollah Khatami has demanded the indictment of Karroubi on a charge of "libeling the system." If the charge sticks, Karroubi could face "80 strokes of the lash" according to Iran's state media."
Sat, 2009-08-15 14:40
#83
No, nor have I said anything to that effect.
The notion of popular freedom movements, in general, as being foreign instigated is not a picture that generally makes believable sense to me.
(I do not consider the bankrolling terrorist attacks by fringe groups as "influencing the protesters".)
I don't know man. If the Americans didn't want Mousavi to win, why did the corporate media spend so much time trying to portray him as Jack Kennedy, and focus on the street protests which supported him? The US media barons, usually only focus on events and people that will benefit corporate power, and ignore or demonize ones that don't. I mean, if the cause of the reformists is entirely just and good, why did the anti Ahmadinejad forces receive the blessing of a scumbag like Benjamin Netanyahu? There's also the matter of the US government preventing twitter from shutting down so that Mousavi's supporters could use it.
On the other hand, it's kind of racist and patronizing to assume that large-scale protests in Iran couldn't be organized without the help of translucently white bureaucrats in the State Department, and there is no doubt that Ahmad is a lunatic, so as a Western outsider I think I have to join Noam in saying that, while I don't know what's going on, I have to salute the protesters for organizing an incredible anti-theocracy uprising. No Pasaran!
Sat, 2009-08-15 22:29
#84
Iran, America, Imperialism and "The Left"
http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2009/08/iran-american-imperialism-lef...
"Aren't the leftists able to understand that if the US gave weapons to Iran during the Iraq-Iran war and if Israel backed the Mullahs, it is rather unlikely that Saddam 'launched the Iran-Iraq war at the behest of the US' as generally claimed? I could not agree more.."
Sat, 2009-08-15 23:05
#85
Israel backed the Mullahs!?
Sun, 2009-08-16 00:14
#86
How can you have an Islamic Republic WITHOUT focus on Islam?
I suspect there is lots of potential variation there. You ought to be able to base a legal system on Sharia law and still maintain a democratic government. That sounds like an Islamic Republic to me.
Sun, 2009-08-16 00:58
#87
NDPPIsrael backed the Mullahs!?
Yes.
"the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
Sun, 2009-08-16 01:02
#88
Israel backed the Mullahs!?
According to an Iraqi who calls himself "Arab woman blue" and calls Saddam Hossein "the great hero martyr"! What do you expect?
She seems so pissed off about the hanging of that bastard.
Sun, 2009-08-16 03:05
#89
Wag the Dog Again
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2009/08/12/wag-the-dog-again
"Israeli media reports that visiting National Security Adviser Jim Jones and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates have told the government of Prime Mininster Benjamin Netanyahu to stop complaining about Iran because the U.S. is preparing to take action "in eight weeks.."
Sun, 2009-08-16 03:35
#90
NDPPIsrael backed the Mullahs!?
According to an Iraqi who calls himself "Arab woman blue" and calls Saddam Hossein "the great hero martyr"! What do you expect?
She seems so pissed off about the hanging of that bastard.
Israel did supply weapons and support to Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Iran_during_the_Iran-Ir...
"Arms sales to Iran totaled an estimated $500 million from 1980 to 1983.."
As for this Iraqi woman's feelings about the lynching of her President, an international war crime, perhaps it has something to do with how much better things were under him than under the present puppets connected to Tehran and Washington. If one was really interested in learning the answer of course one would read her blog. Here's a sample and we'll leave it there since "thread drift" is discouraged here..
http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2009/07/to-sons-of-bitches.html
Sun, 2009-08-16 20:01
#91
The meaning of the 8-week wait has taken on considerably different outcomes since it's first announcement. Not sure that the U.S. has promised some kind of military action, and of course, is unlikely to have.
Mon, 2009-08-17 03:46
#92
War? Israeli Ambassador to US: Obama's End-Of-The-Year Deadline to Iran Has Been Moved Up to September
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14798
re: Iran strike Op "Israeli Air Force plans to participate in aerial exercises in the US and Europe in the coming months with the aim of training its pilots for long range flights. IAF planes will take part this year in a joint aerial exercise with a NATO member state that cannot be identified.."
Sat, 2009-08-22 02:18
#93
Here's another Israeli angle on the Iranian nuclear issue:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1108564.html
Here's how the U.S.A. is putting undue/unjust pressure on Iran over the NPT:
httP://original.antiwar.com/prather/2009/08/21/iaea-legal-expert-stifles-neocrazies
Fri, 2009-08-28 03:13
#94
"'They [Iranian authorities] should at least have the courage to declare that this government is neither a republic nor Islamic with nobody allowed to protest, comment or criticise,' fumed ... (top dissident cleric Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali) ... Montazeri."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090827/wl_mideast_afp/iranpoliticsunrestmo...
Fri, 2009-08-28 22:29
#95
Netanyahu Calls for 'Crippling Sanctions' Against Iran
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090827/wl_mideast_afp/mideastisraelgermany...
"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called Thursday for 'crippling sanctions' against Iran to stop its disputed nuclear work, on a solemn visit to Berlin marked by Holocaust rememberance. After talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Netanyahu expressed hopes for a quick resumption of a Middle East peace talks as he warned of a mortal threat to Israel's survival poised by Iran. "There is not much time," to halt Tehran's nuclear ambitions, he told reporters.."