Barry Bonds, however, well, everyone knows that the (black) man is a cheat.
Roger Clemens, well, everyone knows that the (white) man is a cheat. And everyone knows that Alex Rodriguez, the (Hispanic) man is a cheat. What's your point?
Caster Semenya sex row
Thu, 2009-08-27 09:57
#52
Thu, 2009-08-27 10:02
#53
What's unclear to me is when discussing the divisions in sport are we discussing sex or gender?
I've assumed, possibly incorrectly, that at least the Olympic movement, has separated people by sex.
Thu, 2009-08-27 10:23
#54
What's unclear to me is when discussing the divisions in sport are we discussing sex or gender?
I've assumed, possibly incorrectly, that at least the Olympic movement, has separated people by sex.
You're getting at what's caused confusion in this discussion, IMO. Physically, we're male and female, with genuine genetically intersex people exceedingly rare. Culturally/psychologically/emotionally, our gender identities are more plastic. Sports has to do with purely physical performance, and it's segregated by sex in the physical sense. So you don't have people who gender-identify as female but are physically male competing in women's competitions - not fair.
Thu, 2009-08-27 10:27
#55
Exactly. I don't care if Rafael Nadal "considers" himself a woman. He can do whatever he wants in his private life. But as far as playing tennis is concerned, he's a man. If you let him play against women, it would be grossly unfair.
Not saying Nadal DOES consider himself a woman, by the way. Just using him as an example.
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:01
#56
Two possible points of reference: the words "heterosexual" and "straight". Some heterosexual people resist the word heterosexual, saying they are just being "natural". I disagree (although they can of course call themselves whatever). As for "straight", it has had and still has positive and negative connotations among various groups and contexts. It stings a little but I accept it for myself, since it does speak to an always insufficiently interrogated view of life and gender an an outside, political constraint. After Solanas' SCUM Manifesto, Monique Wittig's The Straight Mind articulate this well.
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:04
#57
I like Catchfire's idea, that instead of segregating by sex (which involves labelling people "male" and "female" who don't identify that way), segregating by physical characteristics like ability, height, weight, etc., the way they do in boxing.
Either that, or if they kept sex as ONE of the segregations, they should make it very clear that there is a difference between gender and sex, or maybe call one division the X division and the other division the Y division, or whatever, instead of "men" and "women".
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:12
#58
Snert
I can't seem to Google any details, but does anyone remember a case from about a decade ago, involving a transwoman who wanted to join a women's softball team but was denied, on the basis that she would have an unfair advantage, having been born male and having retained much of the size and upper-body strength from her days as a man? Ring any bells?
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:39
#59
I like Catchfire's idea, that instead of segregating by sex (which involves labelling people "male" and "female" who don't identify that way), segregating by physical characteristics like ability, height, weight, etc., the way they do in boxing.
Segregate by "ability"? That's pretty much the definition of elite athletics! Everyone who can be an athlete at that level has already segregated themselves from the general population due to their ability. They already ahve segregated leagues for ability. In hockey, there's the NHL for those with great ability and there's the after-work league at the local rink for people without great ability.
Height and weight are only factors in certain sports - mainly the "fighting" ones like boxing, wrestling, etc. If you take tennis, for example, being tall has some advantage but it's hardly the be all and end all. But if you stopped segregating tennis by sex, women would disappear from the professional ranks overnight. Serena Williams is the best female tennis player probably in history (currently ranked #2 but that's based on a complex scoring system) but if she were forced to compete against men, she wouldn't make the top 100.
Or take a sport like marathon running (again, where height and weight don't play much of a role) . The top time ever recorded by a female runner is 2 hours and 15 minutes (and however many seconds). That doesn't even rank in the top 500 times recorded by men. In the 100 metre dash, the top time recorded by a female wouldn't be in the top 1000 times recorded by men.
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:49
#60
Physically, we're male and female, with genuine genetically intersex people exceedingly rare.
Here's the thing, intersexed conditions are in fact not exceedingly rare. And in terms of fairness, they need to be considered and treated equitable, not just rejected out of hand.
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
Thu, 2009-08-27 11:53
#61
I can't seem to Google any details, but does anyone remember a case from about a decade ago, involving a transwoman who wanted to join a women's softball team but was denied, on the basis that she would have an unfair advantage, having been born male and having retained much of the size and upper-body strength from her days as a man? Ring any bells?
Here's the thing, once a person has transitioned for more than 2 years, it's been shown that they do not possess any advantage based on their male past, and in fact are generally at a physical disadvantage compared to other women who are not trans.
Thu, 2009-08-27 12:01
#62
When I said "ability", SSC, I meant disability (e.g. paralympics, etc.). Sorry if I was unclear.
Thu, 2009-08-27 12:31
#63
Physically, we're male and female, with genuine genetically intersex people exceedingly rare.
Here's the thing, intersexed conditions are in fact not exceedingly rare. And in terms of fairness, they need to be considered and treated equitable, not just rejected out of hand.
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
I read that link and I stand by what I said. Klinefelter's syndrome isn't intersex; they're boys. A woman born with a vagina that isn't perforated isn't of indeterminate gender. People who require surgery on their genitalia aren't of indeterminate gender.
I don't reject the humanity of any person out of hand. I object to the misuse of science to insist something is there that isn't. There doesn't have to be a genetic basis to gender identity for it to be real and respected any more than we need to identify a "gay" gene.
Okay but let's pretend that physical reality doesn't exist and male and female are no more than 2 extremes on either end of a continuum. So here's a question for ya: how many FTM transgendered individuals are insisting they get to play on men's sports teams at the elite level?
Thu, 2009-08-27 13:04
#64
Catchfire
Re: the divisions between sex and gender. When 'gender' as a binary term was discovered to be much more fluid, we used to think we could at least rely on 'sex', based on biology--which, I suppose is based on who can procreate with whom. But what transpersons have known for a long time, and have started to teach cisgendered folk, is that biology is pretty fluid too. I mean, take a look at 2fruition's article above:
Mandatory gender tests for women athletes were discontinued many years ago because of they were deemed fundamentally demeaning. So there may be other intersex athletes competing — often, intersexuality (much like race, class or sexual orientation) is something that you cannot necessarily observe casually).So essentially, Semenya is being discriminated against because of her non-gender-conforming appearance — and forced to prove whether she is "entirely female." Watching the results of the Berlin 800m competition, I'm most struck by the ways in which Semenya's body is similar to those of the other elite female running athletes — rather than the ways it is different.
Their bodies — tall, long-legged, muscular, very little to no breast tissue — are very much alike. I point this out not to objectify these women — rather to point out that while some could argue Semenya's appearance is quite different from the "average woman" (whatever that means), she and her peers are not quite that disparate at all.
Furthermore, while gender testing used to involve only a humiliating glance upskirt, Semenya had to undergo observation by 'an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist, and both internal and external examinations'. And there is still no definitive result returned. Why is that if we can simply divide Semenya by her 'sex'? What is that? Whether she's got a socket or a screw?
I'm not sure why posters keep harping on the fact that men would trounce women if they were to compete in the same event, as if that's what is at stake here. What's at stake is sport's governing body, the world media, and transphobic people everywhere are determined to define Caster Semenya's reality for her, in a ritual of public humiliation and mockery. To defend this despicable and tyrannical action on the backs of female athletes with an eye for 'fair play' is extremely odious.
ETA: I wrote 'transphobic', which I think is accurate, although there is still no evidence that Semenya is transgendered. I think there is a lot of fear and bias rooted in transphobia, misogyny and racism flowing through this story. In fact, we might as well throw in colonialism too, since we all know that this would probably not happen in a Western (i.e. non-African) country.
Thu, 2009-08-27 14:00
#65
ETA: I wrote 'transphobic', which I think is accurate, although there is still no evidence that Semenya is transgendered. I think there is a lot of fear and bias rooted in transphobia, misogyny and racism flowing through this story. In fact, we might as well throw in colonialism too, since we all know that this would probably not happen in a Western (i.e. non-African) country.
The testing was requested by the president of the IAAF, Lamine Diack, who is Senegalese.
et us consider, for the moment, the curious story of Castor Semenya, the gold medalist in the women's 800 meters at the Berlin World Championships. While it is hard to gather all of the facts, here is what we can confirm: Thirteen months ago, Castor was eliminated in the early rounds of the World Junior Track Championships, having run 2:11.98 for 800 meters. Three months later, Castor won the World Youth title in 2:04.3. In July 2009, Castor ran 1:56.72, decimating the World Junior women's record for 800 meters. Last week, Castor ran 1:55.45, another WJR, to take gold in the World Championships!
This type of meteoric improvement can happen, but makes most keen observers of the sport skeptical. When the story leaked that the IAAF requested a gender test on Castor from the South African federation, then the story got murkier, and murkier, and today, still murkier....
http://www.runblogrun.com/2009/08/the_curious_and_sad_story_of_c.html
Thu, 2009-08-27 14:25
#66
Hee. It would have to be Princess Anne of England, in show jumping.
I would think none of the equestrian competitors would have to undergo sex testing as horsey sports are the only Olympic event where females and males compete against each other.
Thu, 2009-08-27 15:21
#67
I'm not sure why posters keep harping on the fact that men would trounce women if they were to compete in the same event, as if that's what is at stake here. What's at stake is sport's governing body, the world media, and transphobic people everywhere are determined to define Caster Semenya's reality for her, in a ritual of public humiliation and mockery. To defend this despicable and tyrannical action on the backs of female athletes with an eye for 'fair play' is extremely odious.
Obviously, there are lots of important issues facing trans people that ultimately might be more important than the outcome of an athletic contest but those are largely separate. Those issues don't somehow make it alright to have an unfair playing field in those athletic events.
And, yes, this has been a really shameful public humiliation of this 18 year old woman and the way she's been embarassed has been really nauseating. If it was necessary for her to undergo a gender test, they should have kept that private until a a result was actually determined.
Sat, 2009-08-29 13:33
#68
M. Spector
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/sports/amateur/story/2009/08/28/sp-semenya-gender.html...'s hormone levels within acceptable range: report[/url]
Sat, 2009-08-29 13:38
#69
M. Spector
It should first be noted that in this age where performance enhancers, cheats and tricks have spared no sport, it isn't unusual for athletes to be asked to prove their competitive integrity. Unfortunately, accusations of cheating or doping after exhibiting a commanding performance are expected. We're suspicious of athletes, and they now must compete beneath ever-present shadows of doubt. When competing for high stakes, they inherently forfeit personal privacy for the purposes of competition and classification.That isn't what bothers me about the Semenya situation.
In reality, what makes this story so sexy to so many is exactly that. We are determined -- come hell or high water -- to define human beings with binary gender sexing.
Immediately, competitors were calling for her private parts after Semenya had passed them like fence posts. "Just look at her!" fumed Russia's Mariya Savinova, who finished fifth in the 800, 3.23 seconds behind Semenya. "For me, she's not a woman," burned Italy's Elisa Piccione, who finished sixth, 3.36 seconds behind Semenya.
I shudder to think of a global stakeout demanding Caster Semenya prove she is a woman by somehow disproving her apparent masculinity or sufficiently compensating for her lack of femininity -- whatever that is.
How is it that steroid testing, something that clean athletes should be willing to shout about from the rooftops, is done discreetly but an 18-year-old's gender test is the subject of malicious global gossip?
The root of what's wrong with this picture is the barrage of opinions that Caster Semenya "just doesn't look womanly enough" and that her six-pack and speed must be the result of a hidden Y chromosome.
The BBC reported Semenya's testosterone levels were three times higher than normal female levels which, coupled with rapid recent improvement, led the IAAF t pursue gender testing.
So, maybe she's cheating. Maybe she's not. But like so many other female athletes, her athletic prowess and physical appearance have triggered a barrage of personal questions that male athletes don't have to deal with.
[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=buckheit/090828]ESPN[/url]
Sat, 2009-08-29 14:43
#70
"(Semeneya's) testosterone levels were three times higher than normal female levels"
This point is meaningless unless - as any science editor knows - we are told this value's statistical dispersion among females (or males). So, this article is basically a hatchet job on her.
Sat, 2009-08-29 17:09
#71
Rexdale_Punjabi
it also showed that when compared to the other females seh dont look that dif. Now,, Hmm if she was a white woman would they be on about how "masculine" she is it feedz the stereotype of incorrectly saying that blacc women and WOC except asian women are more masculine (opposite usually true from my expierience lol) then white women and it's also a lot easier to demonify and vilify her because of her race because there's less opposition to it then if it was a white woman on the same shit.
Itz a case where race and gender work together she wouldnt be getting this shit if she was white and this whole female shit wouldnt be there if sexism didnt exist.
The article attemps to use a scientific fact which like martin said is very variable (shit they found that on avg blacc males got 30-40% more test in their blood then white now think about normal variation and if that holds true for women too, and the fact that"normal" female levels would undoubtedly be white females cuz thats whats normal aint it? thought yall knew lol smh cuzz)
and umm atleast semeneya looks pacced I googled elisa lol all Ill say is u look like u starving ma
Thats the str8 goodz
Sat, 2009-08-29 17:52
#72
M. Spector
"(Semeneya's) testosterone levels were three times higher than normal female levels"
This point is meaningless unless - as any science editor knows - we are told this value's statistical dispersion among females (or males). So, this article is basically a hatchet job on her.
By "this article" I assume you are referring to the BBC report, which is the source of the "three times higher" information. And I trust you are clear that the BBC report is not news, but was part of what led to the whole uproar in the first place.
The latest test information, which I linked to above, shows her testosterone levels were within "acceptable" range (as defined by the Athletics South Africa testing body).
Sun, 2009-08-30 00:01
#73
"For me, she's not a woman," burned Italy's Elisa Piccione, who finished sixth, 3.36 seconds behind Semenya.
Charming.
Sun, 2009-08-30 11:57
#74
She was so angry that one of her coaches needed to persuade her to go to the podium to collect her prize 'No one ever said I was not a girl, but here [in Berlin] I am not,' she told friends. 'I am not a boy. Why did you bring me here? You should have left me in my village at home.'
The real villains here might be the SA athletic federation, who put this girl into the international spotlight despite her long history of having to prove her sex.
Sun, 2009-08-30 12:44
#75
And this is why I hate sports up to and including the olympics.
Mon, 2009-08-31 10:47
#76
M. Spector
[url=http://www.thegrio.com/2009/08/a-south-african-woman-barely.php]Racism is another hurdle in track star's gender dispute[/url] [excerpt]
A South African woman, barely out of her youth, faces a team of scientific and medical experts in Europe. She is stripped, both physically and psychologically, before the eyes of the world; eyes that see her body - the flesh that carries the heart and mind of a sensitive woman - as abnormal, freakish and inexplicably different from those produced by a scientific establishment that defines what a "normal" woman looks like. As a result, this woman is poked, prodded and put on display, as a watchful media become more and more infatuated with her difference.Though this vignette is reminiscent of the humiliating tale of Caster Semenya, the swift South African runner whose win in the women's 800 meters at the World Championships in Berlin earlier this month has been marred by athletic officials and sore losers who question her gender status, it is not her story.
Rather, it is the biography of Saartjie Baartman, the so-called Venus Hottentot, who was stolen from her home in southern Africa in the early 19th century, and placed on display across Europe. Baartman became a public sensation because her full-figured body defied all stereotypes of the European female form. She was treated as though she were not a woman, not even a man, but as an animal, and was displayed, examined, and abused as if she were one until she died five years after her capture.
Mon, 2009-08-31 12:04
#77
Here's a thoughtful blog by a south African sports writer:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/08/caster-semenya-male-or-female.html
The fact of the matter is that these allegations are not new. They have followed Semenya for a few years. Therefore, there was ample time to verify sex (again, a difficult process) and clear the way for her to compete. There is no doubt however, that the question was always going to be raised in Berlin, that people would ask and scrutinize, and so good management and coaching would have seen this resolved BEFORE the Championships even began. Because it was not, we are sadly seeing that Semenya will be the loser in what might well become an ugly story. There is surely nothing more offensive than the question of a woman's sex - even a doping accusation does not come close.
Elite level sport has been dealing with the question of intersex people since the 1930s. But the onus is on the originating country to withdraw an athlete quietly from competition to avoid just this sort of situation.
But SA was focused on medals, and glory, and when the whole situation started to go sideways, as could have been predicted, SA officials started screaming racism in order to divert attention from their own culpability in the humiliation of this poor girl.
Full disclosure: my ongoing interest in this story is partly personal. Twenty years ago, I had surgery to remove a tumour I was probably born with that was having masculinizing effects. Before then, when I took part in high school athletics, I was massively, off the charts, stronger than the other girls. I'm a small person, but was much stronger than girls a foot taller and forty pounds heavier. And I went to the Toronto finals in shot put, beating out the big farm girls twice my size who usually win these sorts of things.
Some earlier posters in this thread have said that MTF trans women lose the advantage of the testosterone relatively quickly after surgery/hormone treatment. I'm not an expert in these things, but recently I went to the Science Centre with my kids, and discovered, twenty years after my surgery, that I have the grip strength of the average man my age.
So I agree with posters who say this wouldn't have happened if Caster were not African. If she were Canadian, maybe she, like me, would be recognized as having a medical problem (if that's what it is) and get treatment, instead of being paraded before the international media as the new South African running star.
Mon, 2009-08-31 14:33
#78
M. Spector
"Thoughtful blog"?
That writer is very confused (or was about two weeks ago when the item was written).
"The difference between sex and gender must be clarified," he says:
Gender refers to how an individual portrays and perceives him or herself---for example male or female. It is more of a social construct than a biological one. [b]Sex, on the other hand, is biological[/b], and that is the essence of the debate in this case, whether or not Semenya is of male or female sex, not gender. An individual can have male sex but female gender, and vice versa.
But then he goes on to explain that determining a person's [b]sex[/b] is not merely an exercise in biology, but involves a multidisciplinary approach, including psychology.
That sounds a lot like [b]gender[/b] testing to me, even by Tucker's definition of gender.
...
Moreover, he criticizes the South African athletic federation (ASA) for saying they were certain about Semenya's [b]gender[/b] before they sent her to the World Championships. Then he says they didn't do all the multidisciplinary testing that he says is necessary to determine [b]sex[/b]. So he's talking about sex, when the ASA was talking about gender. And he blames the ASA for the controversy because they didn't make her undergo the humiliating sex testing that is now being demanded by the IAAF!
Then he says the ASA couldn't possibly be certain of Semenya's sex without doing all that "comprehensive" multidisciplinary testing! Utter bullshit. Does that mean that the Jamaica Amateur Athletic Association couldn't possibly be certain of Usain Bolt's sex without doing the same kind of testing? Was Athletics Kenya certain of Winny Chebet's sex before she ran second to Semenya in the 800 metres? If so, had they given her the whole IAAF treatment - psychologist, endocrinologist, and all?
Mon, 2009-08-31 15:13
#79
But testing was necessary for Semenya because of the questions around her sex that had existed for years - questions that are perfectly understandable, obvious, and completely ignored by the ASA before submitting her for international competition.
Mon, 2009-08-31 17:04
#80
M. Spector
What sort of testing was necessary?
Tucker says it has to be the whole comprehensive panel of experts before you can be sure. That's what I say is bullshit.
At #67 above I have alluded to a report that says Semenya's testosterone levels are within acceptable limits for a female athlete. We also have the anecdotal testimony of fellow athletes, friends, and family who have seen her naked and say there's no doubt she's a girl.
So at what point is the South African ASA entitled to say "OK, despite the doubts expressed, we are satisfied Semenya is certainly female"? Tucker says - not until the gynaecologist, the geneticist, and the psychologist have had their way with her. Who is he to say that's necessary for "certainty" about her sex? He doesn't know any more about her than you or I do.
If your argument (and his) were accepted, then every amateur female athlete whose sex is doubted by - by whom, actually? - would have to be pre-emptively subjected to the full IAAF-type panel of experts by their national track organization before they are allowed to compete internationally.
What you want to do is make this type of inquisition commonplace. I want to make it rare.
Tue, 2009-09-01 16:22
#81
Please note I reject the term cisgendered.
Fish reject the term water, but that doesn't stop them swimming in it, or most mammals being unable to live there. Which, I suppose fish psychologists would call Oxygen Absorbtion Disorder, and recommend a year trying to breathe water into lungs before they were allowed scuba apparatuses, sort of a real life test, if you will.
Tue, 2009-09-01 16:28
#82
Tucker says - not until the gynaecologist, the geneticist, and the psychologist have had their way with her.
I'm having trouble understanding what light a psychologist could shed on this matter.
Tue, 2009-09-01 23:03
#83
Me either, but for some reason the powers that be love to slap a psychologist in front of anyone not clearly cis to make her prove she's a woman. Just usually that psychologist can take away hormones, not medals.
Wed, 2009-09-02 09:08
#84
remind
Psychologists have no power to take away, nor give medication.
Wed, 2009-09-02 09:49
#85
This sort of thing has happened before. Indian runner Santhi Soundarajan lost her 800m silver medal after failing a gender test at the Asian Games in Doha in 2006.
Wed, 2009-09-09 09:39
#86
The [url=http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global%5B_id%5D=27766][b]...
[b]'Make-over is not to prove a point' - Semenya[/b]
WOW, look at Caster now! The latest issue of YOU magazine features Caster Semenya as its cover girl after giving her a make-over for a "new Caster".
Pictured in a sequined dress, vinyl tights, stilettos and lipstick next to the subtitle "Athletics star Caster Semenya as you've never seen her before - transformed by YOU from powergirl to glamourgirl", she certainly does look more glamorous than South Africans have ever seen her before.
[i]snip ...[/i]
When asked by the media why she agreed to the make-over Semenya said: "I didn't do this to prove a point but rather to have fun. I don't give a damn what people say about me ..."
[i]snip ...[/i]The Times Online broached the subject of why Semenya chose to pose for YOU magazine now, asking: "Why such a public statement about her femininity now when a team of scientists are simultaneously drawing conclusions that may not agree with it. It is indecently hasty when she could easily have waited until the science had been completed."
A spokesperson from the Commission on Gender Equality did not regard the feature as helpful as it is seen to reinforce the fact that "women cannot be seen in a different light" to the current stereotype and that people will no longer associate Semenya with the "girl we love because she runs for us", but rather simply as a woman conforming to the gender role assigned to her by society.
![http://i27.tinypic.com/13z2v0o.jpg[/IMG]](http://i27.tinypic.com/13z2v0o.jpg[/IMG]){kind=link}
Thu, 2009-09-10 13:26
#87
I was afraid it would be something like this.
THE world champion 800m runner Caster Semenya has been revealed to have male and female sexual organs, posing an ethical and political quandary for the sport's ruling body, the International Association of Athletics Federations, and her home nation, South Africa.Extensive physical examinations of Semenya, who is just 18 and from a remote village in the country's far north, has shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite. Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone.
But a source close to the IAAF investigation, who asked not to be named, told The Times yesterday: “It is an open secret that, within South Africa, [Semenya’s] gender has been a topic of discussion for four years at least.“But [Athletics SA] did nothing, no tests, and they entered her at the World [Athletics Championships, to be watched by] television audiences of 4-billion to 5-billion people.”
“There has been no thought whatsoever about [Semenya’s] welfare or what her future might hold now that she is a world celebrity.”
http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1055942
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/secret-of-semenyas-sex-stripped-ba...
Thu, 2009-09-10 13:34
#88
remind
Sigh
Thu, 2009-09-10 15:18
#89
Wow, Sineed thanks for posting that update. It will be interesting to see what the decision is, as I am sure it will become precedent in thes types of cases. I really have no idea what the correct response should be here.
The only thing I know for sure is I oppose a "solution" bandied about above that gets rid of sex-segregated sport at these levels. That would ultimately mean the end of participation by women and girls for the most part.
Thu, 2009-09-10 16:18
#90
When I first came across this topic, I was inclined to get rid of sex segregation in sports, but I've come around to your POV, Ghislaine. Women fought for decades to have their own sports, and sports have been an important part of empowering women.
The upside to this revelation, though, is Caster will be more likely, I think, to get treatment for her condition than if she continued to live in obscurity in a SA village. According to various articles, she refused to dress like a girl growing up, and preferred to play with the boys and dress like the boys. You'll notice in pictures where she's racing, in various links above, that she alone of all the racers wears men's shorts.
Maybe, now that there's been international attention, she'll decide to be a boy.
Thu, 2009-09-10 16:47
#91
remind
Personally, I have never been inclined to get rid of sex segregation in sports, in my view, not much could be more foolish than that, for women to contemplate allowing to happen.
Thu, 2009-09-10 17:09
#92
"Ending gender segregation" in sports is basically a synonym for "kicking women out of elite athletics."
Thu, 2009-09-10 17:16
#93
remind
Yep, it is, though I would say out of all athetics.
Thu, 2009-09-10 17:20
#94
Yep, it is, though I would say out of all athetics.
Well, women and girls could still play "for fun" because they enjoy it and to get some exercise but, yeah, if they're forced to compete against men, they'll never make it to any high level. For example, the fastest female time ever recorded in the 100 metre dash wouldn't even make it into the top thousand times recorded by men. (and the list I saw of record male times only went to a thousand so it could potentially be way way higher than that.
Thu, 2009-09-10 17:27
#95
remind
In every instance, funding for women's sports would cease to exist, after all why bother funding something that would be just for fun?
Thinking of university sports programs here.
Thu, 2009-09-10 17:33
#96
In every instance, funding for women's sports would cease to exist, after all why bother funding something that would be just for fun? Thinking of university sports programs here.
I don't know how it works in Canada but I know that here in the States, Title IX mandates equal funding for women's college athletics.
It obviously wouldn't affect things like local youth soccer leagues and whatnot but the number of women in the Olympics would probably be reduced to 1%. Very few women would be able to become professional athletes. I mean, Serena Williams is an amazing tennis player but if she ever stepped on the court against Rafael Nadal, she'd be hard-pressed to score a single point.
maybe it's semantics but I think that if you actually GET funding to play sports, you're probably in "elite athletics" by definition. With greatly varying degrees obviously.
Thu, 2009-09-10 19:04
#97
"Ending gender segregation" in sports is basically a synonym for "kicking women out of elite athletics."
Yes. It was argued upthread that sex segregation in sports needs to end because it discriminates against transgender people or people of indeterminate gender, and in the spirit of erasing gender barriers I concurred with that POV before I'd given it much thought.
Back to Caster: this was the outcome I'd expected. The SA government's protestations of racism were puzzling and felt a bit too knee-jerk, and the welcoming party when Caster came home smacked of media manipulation. But of course they knew: besides Caster's masculine appearance, since she doesn't have ovaries, she would never have had a period.
A South African website, Sport24.co.za, reported Davies as saying that the manner in which the ASA was handling the matter could become a huge problem. He was reported to have said the ASA president, Leonard Chuene, had spread so many untruths about the IAAF's conduct that it would be a major embarrassment for him when the facts are revealed. "Chuene may have no other option than resigning as president."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/10/caster-semenya-hermaphrodite...
Thu, 2009-09-10 19:42
#98
Sineed: The upside to this revelation, though, is Caster will be more likely, I think, to get treatment for her condition than if she continued to live in obscurity in a SA village...
What makes you think she is sick or should be treated out of her intersex condition?
As for South African sports authorities, I wouldn't presume that they follow every female athlete that closely that they know if and when these women have their period. Also, I imagine that periods are sometimes disrupted by the athletes' regimen or stress.
Thu, 2009-09-10 20:10
#99
Not to metion extremely low body fat. I feel really bad for this woman. She is being torn apart by the media. I don't quite think she signed up for the genital searches, which must have been humiliating for her.
Thu, 2009-09-10 20:52
#100
Sineed: The upside to this revelation, though, is Caster will be more likely, I think, to get treatment for her condition than if she continued to live in obscurity in a SA village...
What makes you think she is [b]sick[/b] or should be treated out of her intersex condition?
You're the first one to bring up the concept of Caster being "sick". Your words and no one elses.
And Stargazer, lots of athletes have to face that humiliation. If you're going to be competing at that level of sport, you need to be in for all kinds of scrutiny. It comes with the job, as mentioned up thread.
Thu, 2009-09-10 21:03
#101
"Treatment" is usually predicated on the notion of a pathological condition, Papal Bull.