If I'm on the outside of a car going 90KPH, you can bet I'm persistently clinging too - I'm hanging on for dear life!!!
Bryant charged V
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:08
#52
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:16
#53
Snert
I would question how dear your life is to you if you jumped on in the first place.
When I try to put myself in Sheppard's shoes, that's as far as I get. I can't wrap my head around risking my life like that over a bumped bicycle.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:23
#54
give it a fucking rest with the svend robinson references. he didn't kill anyone. he had mental health issues and owned up to what he did, and bore the repercussions. it's offensive to even mention it in the context of this thread. thank you.
there has been continued reference to "the facts" as we know them or don't. well, sorry to break it to some of you but it is well known from police statements that bryant was involved in a minor collision with Sheppard and he left. Sheppard pursued him on foot. when he caught up there was a verbal altercation, sheppard threw his pack on the hood and grabbed the side of the car. this much has been reported widely. at no point was "carjacking" brought up until today. nice one Navigator!
what has failed to be reported or explained is why Bryant left the first scene, and why he stepped on his gas pedal at the second scene. and why he drove nearly two blocks after killing a man. anyone else would have been immediately charged with failing to remain at the scene. basically bryant has committed two widely reported hit-and-runs. why is this being blatantly overlooked?
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:24
#55
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
When I try to put myself in Sheppard's shoes, that's as far as I get. I can't wrap my head around risking my life like that over a bumped bicycle.
What about wrapping your head around the terror that he felt as the mail boxes and poles rushed at him at 90KPH? What do you think Bryant's reaction to his fear was?
... it certainly wasn't to stop.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:29
#56
Snert confidently asserted: "I think the idea of being fearful when an angry person is persistently clinging to the outside of your car at 90kph is likely to resonate with the public."
The car was stopped when Sheppard confronted Bryant, you (abreviated for civility).
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:30
#57
Unionist, I find your penchant for playing devil's advocate endearing, and I can't say I've never done it myself, here and in other places. Union rep reflex?
But it's missplaced in this case.
It's difficult to imagine this event taking place where one party or the other was totally in the right and the other totally in the wrong.
And even though we here are pretty much sold on the idea of bias in the media, the hammer blows to Sheppard with obvious, obvious intent to if not entirely sway public opinion at least muddy the waters (which at the least it has done) has been frightening even for me who expected something like this to happen.
Never did I dream it would be this cowardly. And I thought I'd be the last here who would underestimate how easily, how joyously, how visciously the media would take up the establishment side in the class war.
It's all been too clever by half.
Don't anyone here fall into the trap of thinking that the exact same thing wouldn't happen to you, or a loved one or friend. You're not special enough in thier eyes.
Make no mistake, what team Bryant and their dogs in the media have done isn't just an attack on Sheppard.
It's an attack upon you.
Wise up.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:39
#58
LTJ, with great respect, that's an implausible, weak explanation.
Care to explain why?
Sure, because "afraid to face the guy whose bike you broke" is awfully inadequate as a reason to flee and then indifferently maim or kill the cyclist. It's inadequate for you or me, and it's inadequate for a high-profile politician and professional. I don't get it, not for an instant.
Or to perhaps posit a more plausible alternative?
Absolutely not. I'm not the one saying "the white rich male guy is guilty as sin and here's why". I'm the one saying that the facts aren't in and what I've heard and seen so far doesn't yet add up to a satisfactory explanation.
Now, it's possible that the reason I'm taking this bizarro viewpoint is that I like white rich males and have class contempt for poor working people. Some people here appear to find that a plausible conclusion. But some people here appear to [b]start[/b] with conclusions and then defend them against all comers.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:43
#59
Unionist, I find your penchant for playing devil's advocate endearing, and I can't say I've never done it myself, here and in other places. Union rep reflex?
But it's missplaced in this case.
I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm sounding a note of caution about drawing drastic conclusions about people's guilt based on inadequate information and really worrisome assumptions (the "white rich male" guy must be guilty).
The question of how the justice system being perverted, the wealthy getting off easy, the high-priced investigators, the role of the MSM - all great topics for discussion. But leave out the guilty verdicts please until the show is over.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:47
#60
On one of the previous incarnations of this thread, LTJ linked to info showing Bryant had done some boxing, and some other stuff showing an aggressive temperament; basically, shedding serious skepticism on the theory that Bryant was afraid of this guy.
I believe he drove off out of pugnacity rather than fear. But today I surf around and hear the latest, that he thought he was being carjacked, and keep in mind the victim had a Criminal Record, and was Wanted in Alberta (for passing bad cheques).
Bryant would have known he was at a distinct tactical disadvantage, seated in a convertible with the top down, presumably with the seat belt on and with Shepperd standing in front of the door bocking his exit. In this situation he had every right to be afraid of Sheppard. Is the carjacking theory the first statement we've heard from Bryant?
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:51
#61
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
..."afraid to face the guy whose bike you broke" is awfully inadequate as a reason to flee and then indifferently maim or kill the cyclist. It's inadequate for you or me, and it's inadequate for a high-profile politician and professional. I don't get it, not for an instant.
First of all, I did not say 'afraid'. I said 'refused'. I don't claim to know why, but I know it was not decent or honourable. It might have been driven by arrogance, or by fear, or by contempt - but whatever the cause, the result was bad behaviour.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:55
#62
If I'm on the outside of a car going 90KPH, you can bet I'm persistently clinging too - I'm hanging on for dear life!!!
Do you seriously think you could pull that off? Hanging onto nothing more than a side mirror. Once the car reaches a speed faster than you can run, your feet are going to go out from under you and the sheer magnitude of the pain of your knees and calves being ground into hamburger will override your tenacity to hang on. Sheppard had to be hanging on to something more substantial and further into the car than a mere side mirror.
OTOH, an article of his clothing might have been caught, preventing him from letting go.
Fri, 2009-09-04 12:56
#63
Snert
give it a fucking rest with the svend robinson references. he didn't kill anyone. he had mental health issues and owned up to what he did, and bore the repercussions. it's offensive to even mention it in the context of this thread. thank you.
That was brave of him to accept his NO JAIL TIME and NO CRIMINAL RECORD so stoically. Mind you, I'm sure that a young black man swiping a $30K piece of bling would also have received the same, after he hired Clayton Ruby.
It's a total non-sequitur that he didn't kill anybody, unless you want to make the case that this White Male Privelege excuse being sprayed around only applies to killing. Funny, though, that nobody really seemed to give a rat's ass when it was Svend. Maybe he was black back then or something.
The car was stopped when Sheppard confronted Bryant, you (abreviated for civility).
More like abbreviated for passive-aggressive cowardice.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:00
#64
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Do you seriously think you could pull that off? Hanging onto nothing more than a side mirror. Once the car reaches a speed faster than you can run, your feet are going to go out from under you and the sheer magnitude of the pain of your knees and calves being ground into hamburger will override your tenacity to hang on.
...particularly after you've been struck by the second or third pole, tree or mailbox.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:01
#65
OTOH, an article of his clothing might have been caught, preventing him from letting go.
Thanks for bringing that up, Salsa. I had been wondering about that, too. Consider the air pressure that results when you stick your arm out of your car at 90 kph. I don't even know if it would be possible to hang on.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:01
#66
Pogo
I agree with Unionist that to come up with a definitive scenario based on the limited information we have is impossible. I suppose we can rush to the extreme to counterbalance his ability to manipulate the system. However we should be clear that we are no longer looking for truth or justice.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:04
#67
Given how skewed everyone professes our justice system is does anyone have suggestions for reform that would ensure justice takes place in this case?
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:10
#68
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Bryant would have known he was at a distinct tactical disadvantage, seated in a convertible with the top down, presumably with the seat belt on and with Shepperd standing in front of the door bocking his exit. In this situation he had every right to be afraid of Sheppard. Is the carjacking theory the first statement we've heard from Bryant?
Makes some sense regarding the second confrontation, but during the first Sheppard was not in front of his door, as he slammed his bag on the hood of the car.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:15
#69
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
Thanks for bringing that up, Salsa. I had been wondering about that, too. Consider the air pressure that results when you stick your arm out of your car at 90 kph. I don't even know if it would be possible to hang on.
Actually, I've thought all along that this is likely exaggerated. My guess is that he was going faster than cars generally travel in that zone, in order to give someone that impression. If cars generally do 40 to 50 through there (my estimation), still accelerating through 60 or 70 is going to seem crazy fast to a bystander.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:18
#70
I'm sounding a note of caution about drawing drastic conclusions about people's guilt based on inadequate information and really worrisome assumptions (the "white rich male" guy must be guilty).
But exactly who is having drastic conclusions about guilt based on indadequate information? Bryant? Oh, maybe a couple of posts here, out of about five hundred.
But how's Sheppard fairing on that account in the media?
I've tried to take the time to read every post on this subject so far, but I truthfully can't say I have. I don't think very many have declared Bryant must be guilty because he's a rich white male. (note to Bryant's deffense, find or invent a Native Canadian in his family tree, or just get an editor to say so.)
What has been said is that there is good reason to doubt that Bryant will face justice. The media campaign alone gives creedence to this view.
It's Ontario. The forensics can't be trusted. The police can't be trusted. The courts can't be trusted, and they have a proven track record of making "misstakes" along lines of gender, class and race.
Is Bryant guilty of anything?
We'll never know.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:28
#71
I didn't know Al personally but many of my good friends did. What i do know is i've been riding and commuting in urban traffic for over 20 years, year round, and this could have easlily happened to me. In the instances of being clipped, bumped or knocked down by drivers that i was actually physically threatened by the driver, i am fortunae that nothing like this did happen. In a few of those cases it was the kindness and bold good samaritanism of bystanders who intervened or took the plate of the car. I've been threatened with tire irons, death, spit on and at, and played chicken with. I've been blown off repeatedly by police, who when i've reported things and said i'm on a bicycle, they basically stopped caring and said there was nothing they could do.
in the eyes of the driving public, we cyclists are the enemy, less than human, and for some, apparently legitimate targets for their rage. It is infinately upsetting to be hit by a car when you are on a bike. it is even more distressing when you are poor and can't afford to fix your damaged bike that may be your livelyhood or how you get to it. that stress has caused me to put myself in harms way more than a few times trying to seek redress or compensation. fortunately it hasn't killed me yet.
for anyone that is interested in helping out with paying for Al's burial arrangements and his children, his friends have set up a bank account at TD Cananda Trust.
-----------------------------------------------------
account# 0690667686...0 Darcy Allan Sheppard. any TD will do.
(i am in the process of confirming that again so if there is any problem let me know)
additionally you can donate via paypal at tobma.com
there is also a facebook group by the toronto bike messenger association called : Darcy Allan Sheppard Fundraiser
"This is a fundraiser to help pay for the burial costs and to raise money for the children of Darcy Allen Sheppard who was tragically killed Monday August 31, 2009 at Bloor St. West and Avenue Road. Details have yet to be confirmed as to location of this event but the date is firm. Please come out."
host: TOMBA - Toronto Bike Messenger Association
Date: Saturday, Sept. 19, 2009
Time: 10:59PM - 4AM
Location: TBA
-----------------------------------
rest in peace brother. i can't participate in this discussion anymore. it makes me so upset i cry every time. bye all. perhaps you'll make it to the fundraiser.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:31
#72
Snert
Is Bryant guilty of anything?We'll never know.
It could go either way. The court could find him guilty, in which case he's guilty of the crime, or they could aquit him, in which case he's guilty of the crime AND guilty of a coverup (his guilt of being a white male is like original sin; he's been guilty of that since birth)
You may be right that we'll never know, but I've got a hunch people are going to discuss it as though they do even after the trial.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:38
#73
Sure, because "afraid to face the guy whose bike you broke" is awfully inadequate as a reason to flee and then indifferently maim or kill the cyclist. It's inadequate for you or me, and it's inadequate for a high-profile politician and professional. I don't get it, not for an instant.
Okay then; 2 plausible reasons for not stopping:
1. He was afraid - the viewpoint Bryant's legal team will promote.
2. He was pissed off - my view.
Fri, 2009-09-04 13:49
#74
Paypal or credit card donations at TOBMA's website, here
Thanks for trying, Farnival; you can lead a horse to water, but if he is facing the wrong way, all you get is an a**...
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:01
#75
There doesn't appear to be all that much difference on the respective polar ends when it comes to law and order issues. It all comes down to ones status in determining guilt before the inconvienient formality of a trial.
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:05
#76
So, who has said Bryant should be sent to jail without trial? This red herring gets tiresome.
But, you know the delicious irony about that is, given what's happened in Ontario over the last few decades?
If there's anyone who really deserves to be wrongfully convicted, it's a former Attourney General of Ontario.
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:08
#77
Sentencing hasn't been discussed for the most part in these threads, so I don't know where you arrived at that notion.
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:13
#78
remind
I'd like to see all the facts before joining the lynch mob.Well, here's a FACT for you boyo. No one has talked about lynching poor deffenseless Bryant, so stop with the bullshit.
And here's another FACT for you mister fair and balanced, there are going to be no facts in this case. The media has made sure of that.
And here's some speculation for you-- that our system is so corrupt because we have so many syncophants of the establishment amoung us who should really know better.
Worth a repeat
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:14
#79
Of course not, the mob mentality has been completely absent from these threads since they began. 
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:19
#80
Sentencing hasn't been discussed for the most part in these threads, so I don't know where you arrived at that notion.
A jail house informant told me.
Or was it Dr. Charles Smith?
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:23
#81
remind
So, who has said Bryant should be sent to jail without trial? This red herring gets tiresome.
Ya, I know it is sickening and telling actually, of who is partaking in this shit!
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:34
#82
We're Canadians.
Defference to authority runs to the bone.
Fri, 2009-09-04 14:55
#83
Cueball
Heh. Law order and good government.
Fri, 2009-09-04 15:35
#84
NDPPTo clarify: I believe he drove off because he was pissed off. But the PR firm he hired is trying to sell the idea that he panicked out of fear of what this maniac might do next.
Bryant's legal team will concoct a defence theory and argument most advantageous to their client not what actually occurred. This they will then 'sell' to the court and likely the court will buy. This is a fixed game and a guy like Bryant has a lot of cards to play. His victim has none and is dead besides. As for bringing in an 'outside' judge and prosecutor - in such matters there is no outside.
Fri, 2009-09-04 16:20
#85
What has been said is that there is good reason to doubt that Bryant will face justice. The media campaign alone gives creedence to this view.
It's Ontario. The forensics can't be trusted. The police can't be trusted. The courts can't be trusted, and they have a proven track record of making "misstakes" along lines of gender, class and race.
Is Bryant guilty of anything?
We'll never know.
Well, that's a horse of a different colour. I totally agree that the entire justice system favours those of privilege (especially class, race, gender...). As I said, that's a fine topic for another thread - and it may well be a fine topic for the Bryant case, once we actually see how it unfolds in court.
But please don't kid me that the depth of outrage and hatred against Bryant in these threads is something I just made up in my head. It is all the purest prejudice and stereotyping, instead of relying on facts and looking for truth. No, it's worse than that - it has turned into outrage against babblers who dare to express the viewpoint that we should wait for the facts to come forward. I find that downright disturbing.
Fri, 2009-09-04 16:24
#86
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
~ yawn ~
Fri, 2009-09-04 16:40
#87
it has turned into outrage against babblers who dare to express the viewpoint that we should wait for the facts to come forward. I find that downright disturbing.
Quite. The enemies within syndrome.
Fri, 2009-09-04 16:57
#88
A jail house informant told me. Or was it Dr. Charles Smith?
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:13
#89
Guilting us now.
Shades of things to come. I imagine that Phase II of Navigator's PR offensive will be to preemptively destroy the perception that their client got a sweet deal by being acquitted/allowed to plea-bargain to an even lesser charge.
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:14
#90
Bryant ordered not to drive, surrender passport
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/09/04/bryant-conditions.html
CBC News on Friday obtained the document outlining the conditions of his release from police custody.One condition is that Bryant is ordered "not to operate or be behind the driver's seat of any motor vehicle until the case is disposed by the courts."
Behind the driver's seat??
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:24
#91
Frustrated Mess
But please don't kid me that the depth of outrage and hatred against Bryant in these threads is something I just made up in my head. It is all the purest prejudice and stereotyping, instead of relying on facts and looking for truth.
Unlike the mass media's effort, with both a much larger budget and audience, to turn Shepperd into the deserving dead. I'm sure everyone will agree he got what he had coming to him by the time it's all said and done.
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:32
#92
Everyone where?
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:35
#93
I'm listening to the news on the CBC right now, and they just reported that the terms of Michael Bryant's release were never released by the police even though such information is supposed to be in the public domain (according to Richard Peck, the prosecutor brought in from BC).
Anyway, those terms are in the link in my previous post.
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:36
#94
Frustrated Mess
Everyone everywhere. Haven't you heard? He passed bad cheques, he gambled, he hitchhiked, he even had a fight with his girlfriend.
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:52
#95
johnbon
There's been a lot of talk in the mainstream media about how dangerous it is for cyclists in this city. But most of the discussion has centred around driving during daylight hours.
What's it like for cyclist driving at night (after sunset) on the streets of Toronto? I can only imagine it must be even more treacherous for cyclists trying to get around without being injured or killed.
I only bring this point up because Mr. Sheppard was killed around 9:45pm
Anyone like to share their experiences? How can we make it safer for cyclists riding at night? Of course, bike lanes would be the best solution.
Fri, 2009-09-04 17:59
#96
From the CBC story linked by Sineed:
...Witnesses said the car appeared to drive up onto the curb and apparently brushed against a mailbox, a tree and other obstacles on the street in an attempt to dislodge Sheppard...
Plain words.
Fri, 2009-09-04 18:15
#97
No doubt, the system of justice is corrupt and skewed in favour of the elite. The tentacles of power at multiple levels are embracing and shielding this man from that which a person of lesser status would confront. Under these circumstances, the concept of innocence before guilt is an undeniable farce to be sure. The expectation of anything other than biased judgement from this charade would defy all reason in comparison to the justice meted out to those who do not have PR firms setting the stage. Unfortunately at present, there is no other system available. Whatever will come of this process shouldn't come as a disappointment when nothing was expected of it in the first place. Where the evidence is overwhelming though, there are examples of powerful people being bought down despite the protection that money, influence and hubris can buy.
Fri, 2009-09-04 19:19
#98
But please don't kid me that the depth of outrage and hatred against Bryant in these threads is something I just made up in my head. It is all the purest prejudice and stereotyping, instead of relying on facts and looking for truth. No, it's worse than that - it has turned into outrage against babblers who dare to express the viewpoint that we should wait for the facts to come forward. I find that downright disturbing.
In a perfect world, you are right. And it's the world we're all trying to work towards.
And, when I first heard about this event, it's the way I would have been content to watch unfold. But while reasonable people sit back and wait, team Bryant is out there pulling in favours to skew the facts, to create a whole new "truth". And we've seen outrageous reporting that tries to put forward speculation about Sheppard's actions as if it were fact.
So, I make absolutely no appologies for being outraged over that. I remain outraged over that. I will continue to be outraged over that, and I will even be outraged when others are not outraged over that.
After all, it's outrageous.
As for hating Bryant? Please. No one owns me to that degree.
Am I predjudiced? Certainly. Again, no appologies for being predjudiced against the system in Ontario that has proven time and again, through evidence at seemingly endless Inquiries that it opperates, savagely, to protect the interests of the establishment and it's minnions no matter who gets destroyed in the process.
Unlike the courts, my predjudice is not based on a person's income, status, gender, colour or race, but on what has gone before.
And, if you and others feel bullied by those who view differently, I am sorry you feel that way. But do not hold me responsible for the weakness of your arguements.
Fri, 2009-09-04 19:41
#99
It is all the purest prejudice and stereotyping, instead of relying on facts and looking for truth.
False. It's a bit too early to try and spin our discussion this blatantly. Anyone can go back, read the threads and see that the arguments critical of Bryant and the system's actions have almost all been based on the available facts: what he did according to eyewitness accounts (good enough for the CBC but not for some Babblers!), what the law required him to do, what Sheppard couldn't have done (control the car's gas pedal), what Bryant was charged and not charged with, what the media did and goes on doing to the late Sheppard, etc. etc. For our trouble, we have been treated with browbeating, sarcasm, insults and now a whiny guilt trip. Pace.
Fri, 2009-09-04 20:14
#100
How come people are deliberately missing this part:
From what has been said in the media, he'll likely mount a defence of necessity or self-defence," said Isenstein. "If he reasonably feared for his life or his safety or the safety of his passenger, it may have been necessary for him to commit a crime – to drive in the manner in which he did."
Screw all of you who are trying to blame Sheppard for his own death. It is disgusting, especially on a progressive baord. HE IS DEAD!!! There is NO DOUBT that the person who killed him is paying a shit load of money to cover his ass. There is NO DOUBT the courts are stacked against this fucking asshole doing any time AT ALL.
Many here seem to think that the justice system will tell us the "facts". That is NOT the way the courts work. The "facts" are filtered and diluted and made up to support the defence in this case because he is well off and well connected to the legal community. If we don't stand up for Sheppard who the fuck will? The justice system is NOT going to.
It was NECESSARY for this person to kill someone. Absolutely necessary right? because that is how we'd all react right? By killing him? Pathetic.
Fri, 2009-09-04 23:01
#101
I can see it all now. Bryant was suddenly struck by fear for his professional reputation, and so murdering the guy clinging to his car for dear life was a reasonable response. For a member of the white boyz' club.