Hamas "spiritual advisor" damages the Palestinian cause by denying the Holocaust

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Sun, 2009-09-06 22:26

Ken Burch

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090831/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_hamas_holocaust

This man is either a blithering idiot or surpassingly evil. Everyone who supports Palestinian self-determination has a moral obligation to denounce any instance of Holocaust denial, as well as any other manifestation of antisemitism.

If you support a Palestinian state in any form, please don't get into digressions on the fine points of language or meaning. This one is easy. This one is simple.

The Holocaust happened. There's no reason for anyone, ever, to deny it. And denying it in the name of the Palestinian cause gives aid and comfort to the Israeli oppressors.

It happened. We all know it happened. Everyone in Palestine knows it happened. This man and all he stands for needs to be repudiated by Hamas.

Admitting that the Holocaust occurred does not minimize Palestinian suffering, and denying it can never ease that suffering.

Thu, 2009-09-03 07:52

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

If you support a Palestinian state in any form, please don't get into digressions on the fine points of language or meaning. This one is easy. This one is simple.

You know, Ken, even though my family was the victim of Nazi genocide, I read the article carefully, and I can't see where this person denies that the Nazi murder of the Jews happened.

All I see is his total opposition to including the Holocaust in the syllabus, saying that it would be a vehicle for spreading Zionist lies - and of course, as we know, the Holocaust is abused non-stop as a vehicle for spreading lies, justifying Zionist occupation, justifying a "Jewish" state of Israel, etc., and particularly using moral blackmail to suppress criticism of Israel. Just read Norman Finkelstein's books on that account.

He also says it's more important to teach Palestinian children about the nakba.

I can imagine some UN official urging First Nations educational authorities to teach courses about how various European groups were subject to religious and other persecution, as a result of which they came to colonize America. The persecutiion may well be historically accurate. The suggestion of teaching it to young First Nations kids might be a vehicle to spread lies and justify the genocidal attacks on them.

I think your outrage here is misplaced. Why not teach the Palestinian kids about the Armenian genocide?

Thu, 2009-09-03 08:09

Unionist

I am not disagreeing with your sentiment here, as you must well know. But this whole incident shows the evil way in which the Nazi genocide is used. [By the way, I don't like the term "Holocaust" - I never heard it before the 1980s, when it was invented by some Americans, yet I grew up with the reality of what we called the churban or the milchomo.] Tell a Palestinian leader that they should teach the Holocaust, and he is now damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

When he said "teaching lies", he is absolutely correct - but he isn't quoted as saying what the "lies" are. The "lies" are the Big Lie that Jews need to colonize Israel in order to avoid future Holocausts. That's the lie. That's the Holocaust Industry (in part), as Finkelstein has dubbed it.

Why not respond to my example about demanding that Indigenous peoples be taught about the persecution of their European colonizers and murderers?

How about courses in South Africa to black kids, showing how the Boers were mistreated by the British Empire and had to wage heroic wars of resistance?

Or how about courses to teach Afghan kids about how the U.S. came up with the first democratic and civil libertarian constitution in the world in the 18th century? Good idea!!??

If I say "get a life, man", does that mean I'm denying the historical reality of these events? I don't think so.

Thu, 2009-09-03 08:11

Ken Burch

They should be taught about that. Why on Earth would you think I'd disagree with you on that?

This, to me, is the crucial quote in the article:

"Adding the Holocaust to the curriculum would amount to "marketing a lie and spreading it," al-Astal wrote in a statement."

Now is it clear what this is about? The man is calling the Holocaust "a lie".

There is no conflict between having the Holocaust in the syllabus and at the same time teaching Palestinian children the truth about what the Israeli regime did to them. What should be taught is "the Holocaust did happen and it was horrible, but Palestinians weren't responsible for it and shouldn't suffer for it". This would not in any sense be an act of submission to the Israelis. It would simply be an acknowledgment that those on the other side of the war(in this case, the Ashkenazis who were the prime movers behind the Zionist movement) did have their own history of suffering. The Palestinians do not have to teach their children that Israeli Jews, or Jews anywhere else, have had no historical miseries.

Also, keeping the Holocaust out of the syllabus gives the Israelis a huge propaganda gift. One they do NOT deserve. It makes the Palestinian side look horrible that anyone on that side is, at this late date, even sounding like he or she is questioning the Shoah. It gives the Israelis and their apologists the chance to say "see? see? They do just "hate the Jews"!"

The Palestinian cause is just. It needs to be protected against stupidity. And even looking like their denying the Holocaust is stupidity.

You can teach about the Nakba AND the Shoah. There's no conflict. This doesn't have to be a "zero-sum" equation.

And the FN comparison you made is nowhere close to a proper analogy. The displacement of indigenous peoples in the New World was never carried out by any group that had, in Europe, been subjected to anything like the Holocaust. The crimes against the FN's were committed by those who COMMITTED the crimes in Europe.

I agree that the Holocaust doesn't justify the Occupation, and have often made that case myself on other boards(like Democratic Undergroud). I'm also aware that the majority of the Israeli Jewish population are Mizrahi(Jews from Muslim and Arab countries)and were protected from the Holocaust by their fellow citizens(which is why, for example, the wartime King of Morocco has been nominated by Moroccan Mizrahi for induction into the "Righteous of the Nations" section at Yad Vashem). But the Holocaust still has to be addressed and acknowledged by all decent human beings, and this man, this alleged "spiritual advisor", dishonors the Palestinian cause by taking this stand and there's no reason for anyone to defend him.

Thu, 2009-09-03 09:14

Ken Burch

I did respond to that, unionist. It was gentile Protestants in North America(and conquistador berserkers in Central and South America)that conquered the FN's. Nothing happened to any of them that was anything like the level of suffering inflicted in the churban or the milchomo(btw, I'd not heard those terms before, and thanks for introducing me to them)by the Nazis and their allies on the Jews and Hitler's other victims. It's an inappropriate comparison. The more appropriate analogy would be to argue that nobody should have condemned Ahenakew for the shit he said because of the suffering FN's have experienced. And I'm pretty damn sure that's an argument no one here would ever make.

The one exception(and it's a partial exception at best)would be that it would be good to teach the FN peoples about what was done to the Celtic peoples of Britain-if only because there are some common points with the FN experience.

The mistake I think this man was making(were I to give him the benefit of the doubt) was to assume that teaching about what Hitler did would automatically have to mean making the Zionist case for everything. The two concepts are NOT the same. The sensible thing would be to teach Palestinian kids that these events did happen, and that they probably have something to do, for example, with the trust issues some Israelis have about anyone else's use of force. It would NOT have to mean teaching them that the land thefts, the destruction of the olive groves, the destruction of hundreds of Palestinian towns, the expulsion of 800,000 people were all justified. In teaching about these things, the Palestinians could then say "these things happened. We acknowledge them and we acknowledge that they helped shape the way people on the other side of this war see things. But you must also remember, children, that we weren't the cause of these monstrous acts and that our people did not deserve to suffer for them". This would be a much healthier approach than to say "it didn't happen-or if it did, it wasn't that bad", which, unfortunately, IS what a lot of Palestinian kids get taught(and which is propaganda gold for the Israeli side of the debate).

The milchomo/churban/Shoah/Holocaust is NOT a justification for the Occupation, and it doesn't really actually fully justify Zionism. But it is a part of the mindset of a lot of people who did end up in Israel. It would only HELP the Palestinian cause to acknowledge what they went through(which they could easily do without conceding that those events justified everything Ben-Gurion, Begin, Stern, Jabotinsky, Sharon and the rest ever did.)

But every time somebody like this "spiritual advisor" says something like this, it does nothing but damage. And it makes people who support Palestinian self-determination look like fools if we say nothing about it. It is not a "no biggie" thing.

(on edit)

A further point is, if there were ever to be a unitary, non-sectarian state, that state would have to be a place that acknowledged everyone's grievances and everyone's historic and psychic pain. Teaching Palestinian kids about what Hitler did would be an important part of achieving that(as would teaching Israeli Jewish kids about the realities of what was done in 1948).

In a unitary state, acknowledging everyone's humanity would be essential to creating the necessary climate of acceptance and unity.

Thu, 2009-09-03 22:40

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

I did respond to that, unionist.

Yes - but you edited your original post at 8:11 am, 2 min after I posted that analogy at 8:09 am, and my crystal ball is at the shop for repair.

I think it's inappropriate for us (or some UN do-gooder, for that matter) to tell Palestinians that they should educate their kids in the oppression Jews faced historically. I didn't even get that education in government-approved European history courses I took in this country as a kid.

I also sense a subtext in all this that if only our kids learned about each other, there would be peace. Trouble is, that's wishful thinking (or lulling people to sleep) in a situation of apartheid, aggression, and occupation. Let Palestinians win their national and human rights, then critique their educational system.

Thu, 2009-09-03 22:51

Stockholm

This isn't a debate about whether learning about the Holocaust ought to be part of the curriculum in Palestinian schools. Ken's point is that this so-called "spiritual advisor to Hamas" claims that the entire existence of the Holocaust is a lie (maybe he is a follower of Jean Marie LePen who described it was a "minor detail" in World War Two). Maybe Hamas should invite Rev Phelps to offer them some spiritual advice as well?

I'm sure that the Isrealis are jumping for joy over this since it just provides anecdotal evidence that Hamas are a bunch of anti-semitic holocaust-denying lunatics who cannot be reasoned with ergo - no point negotiating.

Thu, 2009-09-03 22:54

Unionist

There isn't even a full-sentence quote from the spiritual adviser - never mind full context - to figure out what he said. And IMHO, it's utterly irrelevant. If he said something like what is alleged, he wouldn't be the first idiot to let himself get sucked in by the enemy's media machine. Ahmadinejad springs - leaps - to mind in that regard. Progressive people should be able to see through these flimsy attempts to find fault with the victims, which is one of the key aims of the Holocaust Industry.

Thu, 2009-09-03 22:58

Ghislaine

Since when is Ahmadinejad in the category of victims? The Palestinian people are, but him?

Thu, 2009-09-03 23:05

#10

Stockholm

The Germans saw themselves as "victims" in the wake of WW1 - does that mean we give them a "pass" on reading Mein Kampf and believing every word of it?

Thu, 2009-09-03 23:08

#11

Unionist

Ghislaine wrote:

Since when is Ahmadinejad in the category of victims? The Palestinian people are, but him?

Could you re-read my post for meaning, please? He's in the category of idiots.

Re Stockholm: His post is in the category of "don't get sucked in", so he won't be hearing any reply from me any time soon.

What's wrong with a suggestion that posts should not be wild, kooky, exaggerated, over-the-top, and provocative? Ah well, I'll put it on my wish list.

Thu, 2009-09-03 23:10

#12

Unionist

Thanks for the reality check, AQ.

Ok everyone, now back to blaming the victims...

Thu, 2009-09-03 23:11

#13

al-Qa'bong

In related news...

Education minister: Word 'nakba' taken out of lesson plans

Quote:
Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar briefed the cabinet on plans for the start of the school year, and announced that the word "nakba" will be taken out of lesson plans.

"It can be said with certainty that Arab Israelis experienced a tragedy in the war, but there will be no use of the word 'nakba,' whose meaning is similar to holocaust in this context," said Sa'ar.

So some guy associated with Hamas denies the holocaust, but it's Israeli state policy to deny the Palestinian equivalent of the holocaust.

And in other related news:

East Occupied Jerusalem lags behind west as school begins

Quote:
Occupied Jerusalem: Thousands of children in Occupied Jerusalem's Arab neighbourhoods were kept out of classrooms on the first day of school on Tuesday because of Israeli government neglect, activists and human rights groups said.

The Arab neighbourhoods of east Occupied Jerusalem lack more than 1,000 classrooms needed to accommodate schoolchildren, according to the report issued by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and Ir Amim, an Israeli non-profit that promotes coexistence in the city.

Fri, 2009-09-04 00:36

#14

Ken Burch

The Nakba shouldn't be taken out of the Israeli curriculum either, AQ, and I've tried to always be clear that Israeli kids should be taught about that.

And I'm damn well NOT blaming the victims. I'm blaming some of those who claim to be LEADING the resistance movement on behalf of the victims for doing something that will make it easier for the victimizers to keep viuctimizing the victims.

Fri, 2009-09-04 01:31

#15

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

And I'm damn well NOT blaming the victims. I'm blaming some of those who claim to be LEADING the resistance movement on behalf of the victims for doing something that will make it easier for the victimizers to keep viuctimizing the victims.

So you are not blaming the victims only the leaders of the victims? Are not the leaders also victims of the occupation? The Isreali soldiers are the oppressors as all occupying forces are. There is no excuse justifying their oppression, full stop. Your words imply that somehow not embracing the holocoust can be a justification for Israelis who never personally suffered under the Nazis (they are all way to young). That is blaming the victim and is repugent to me.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

Fri, 2009-09-04 01:44

#16

Cueball

It is very simply some kind of loyalty test that any Palestinian leader has pass. If they do not they are vilified as anti-semites. The content of these loyalty tests change from year to year, shifting each time a Palestinian leader jumps through the hoops of the last.

At one time, they had to recognize the existance of Israel. They had to say it. If they did not they were anti-semites.

Then they had to condemn the suicide bombers. They had to say it. If they did not they were anti-semites.

Then they had to condemn the suicide bombers, in Arabic. They had to say it. If they did not they were anti-semites.

Now they have condemn the Holocaust. They have to say it. If they do not they are anti-semites.

What else is new?

Next year it will be something else that Palestinians are not saying that will prove them unworthy of respect.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:28

#17

Ken Burch

It's not a "loyalty test". In this case, it's just a reality test. There was never any reason for them to play politics on this particular issue. Whether or not they condemn the event in question, it's not asking too much for them to admit that it happened. I agree that they shouldn't have had to jump through the hoops mentioned above, but this is different. The hoops you mentioned were political. This one is simply an acknowledgment of fact. The notion that denying that Jewish people suffered would help the Palestinian cause was always way stupid as strategy. Why pretend otherwise?

All they needed to say was "Of course it happened. But we didn't do it and we shouldn't have had to suffer for it". Why was it asking so much to say that? If all Palestinian leaders had just stipulated that from the start, it would have denied the Israeli side a nuclear capacity propaganda weapon.

Also, it's not like they ever gained anything by implying that the churban didn't happen or that it wasn't a big deal.

It's NOT solidarity to defend Hamas on this point. It's also not helpful to the Palestinian cause.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:30

#18

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

And I'm damn well NOT blaming the victims. I'm blaming some of those who claim to be LEADING the resistance movement on behalf of the victims for doing something that will make it easier for the victimizers to keep viuctimizing the victims.

So you are not blaming the victims only the leaders of the victims? Are not the leaders also victims of the occupation? The Isreali soldiers are the oppressors as all occupying forces are. There is no excuse justifying their oppression, full stop. Your words imply that somehow not embracing the holocoust can be a justification for Israelis who never personally suffered under the Nazis (they are all way to young). That is blaming the victim and is repugent to me.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

I said, UPTHREAD, that what Hitler did did not justify what was done to Palestinians. Did you not read that? This is about not giving the oppressors something they can use to perpetuate the oppression.

And in this case, there is a difference in status between the victims and those who claim to lead their resistance movement. The leaders, in this case, have greater priveleges, greater power, and greater responsibility. This includes the responsibility to NOT give aid and comfort to the oppressors. And aid and comfort is precisely what this man did in taking this stance. It's stupid tactics to give the Israeli side ANY chance to invoke the Shoah/churban.

The Palestinians were blameless in what Hitler did. Therefore, they have nothing to gain by playing politics with the reality of it.

Defending Hamas on this is just as stupid as that poster I got in a fight with years ago who insisted that it was perfectly acceptable to use the image of the Magen David merged with the swastika. In fact, it's just as inexcusable as defending Stalin on the Pact.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:32

#19

Cueball

Ken Burch wrote:

It's not a "loyalty test". In this case, it's just a reality test. There was never any reason for them to play politics on this particular issue.

No. It is an loyalty test, and one that plays upon a very old Zionist cannard about how the Palestinian leadership fails its people and is the cause of Palestinian woes. All you are doing is replacing the bit about how "not saying" blah blah (whatever blah blah is this year) is an expression of antisemetism, and saying it indicates that they are failing their people, by not going out of their way to prove that they are not anti-semites by submitting to the loyalty test.

The loyalty test is still in there. I don't mean to be harsh, but you are the good cop saying sign the loyalty test for your own good.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:33

#20

Ken Burch

You make it sound as if playing politics with this part of history is a successful act of defiance. It isn't. It weakens the Palestinian cause everytime it's repeated.

All I'm saying is that the Palestinian leadership should exercise the revolutionary discipline to avoid stupidity.

And you don't have to be a Zionist propagandist to believe the Palestinian leadership has often been piss poor. Most Palestinians believe that a good deal of the time.

This man HELPED the Israeli side by doing this. Don't you get that?

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:47

#21

Cueball

Whose is playing politics? The Holocaust is about as relevant to the evolution of Palestinian culture as the Shanghai massacre is to New Yorkers. Not very. To insist on teaching it is cultural imperialism.

As for "helping" the Israeli side, I see that it is you who is helping the Israeli side by playing the "good cop" who is insisting that the prisoner should submit to the loyalty test for their own good.

"Be smart. Sit down. Have a cigarette. Think it over. Things will go much worse for you if you don't sign the document that proves your alliegiance."

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:48

#22

Cueball

That is another issue entirely.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:48

#23

Ken Burch

The leaders of Hamas are not themselves victims of oppression.

Leaders almost never are.

It's the rank-and-file Palestinians who are oppressed.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:50

#24

Ken Burch

You were comparing the official I was condeming to a prisoner in police custody. He's not. Like almost all such leaders he's exempt from oppression.

You make it sound like saying "yes, it happened" is an act of capitulation or of weakness. It's not that at all. It's simply making the wise choice of denying your enemy a weapon.

Fri, 2009-09-04 02:59

#25

Cueball

There you go. Being the good cop... "It's simply making the wise choice: Sign."

Fri, 2009-09-04 03:17

#26

Ken Burch

I'm not acting as a "good cop". And there's no way that teaching about this part of history(which was somethng that the UN was asking Hamas to do in this case, not the Israeli government)would have been capitulation or weakness.

It's not solidarity to say "I'll defend whatever the Palestiinian leadership does". Doing that means giving up your own conscience and your own principles.

Fri, 2009-09-04 04:04

#27

Erik Redburn

I understand what youre saying Ken.

Fri, 2009-09-04 04:14

#28

Cueball

Yeah, well I suggest you head on up to some Reserve and start telling people they have some special responsibility to learn all about the English genocide of the Highland Scots or the ethnic cleansing of the Irish, so they can be a just a "little bit more understanding" about why the Scots and the Irish, came here, among a few others, and starting stealing their land, killing their children, and destroying their way of life. Actually, I don't advise you do that, because I would seriously doubt you would get out of that situation uninjured, if alive, if you seriously pressed the issue to any degree of it being "right" and politically important, and "wise", if only for the "sake of appearances".

At best you would be laughed at.

You guys seem to have a never ending supply of good advice for the opressed.

Fri, 2009-09-04 04:15

#29

Cueball

You don't even know if this guy is part of the Palestinian leadership. All the report says is that he is a "spiritual advisor". As far as that goes, that sound like he speaks for himself, and no one else.

Trying to make a distinct seperation between the UN and the forces that back Israel is completely meaningless in the case of Palestinians, if only because the UN is the agency that created it in the first place. Whatever good it may do it is percieved throughout many places in the world as an agency the expresses the collective will of European nations, and not much else. You seem to be concerned a lot about the "impressions" that are made, and public "perceptions", so I find it odd that you seem to be a little unaware of the fact that the UN might not be percieved as not being an agent of the Israeli agenda, after all Israel has traditionally been part of its agenda.

Believing that the UN is some kind of distincly impartial body is part of our mythology, not one necessarily shared by everyone else.

All that aside, the fact is that the most recent loyalty test being imposed on the people who Israel has been at war with for the last 70 years is what Palestinians "don't say" about the Holocaust. Before it was what they "didn't say" about "suicide bombers" and before that it was what they "didn't say" about the existance of Israel. Making people say things that they would not ordinarily have a reason to say is what loyalty tests are all about.

Your position, just like all the good cops before you is that all the Palestinians need to do is jump through just one more hoop and say what it is the Israeli's want them to say. In this case you want Palestinian teachers to say things about the Holocaust. This isn't about Hamas leaders, this is about teachers, and kids, and forcing them to learn the history of their opressors.

That is all well and fine, and I am a big fan of history and wish all Palestinians would learn as much as they can about WWII, the Holocaust and all of that stuff, I think it is important, but making them do it, and having you of all people tell them that this is what they should do "for their own good", just amounts to mafia talk, in the guise of the fatherly Don who tells people what is for their own good before the hit man shows up.

Fri, 2009-09-04 04:43

#30

Erik Redburn

Oh, learn to tell the difference between individual humans and the similiarities between hierarchies everywhere, then get back to me in the morning.

Fri, 2009-09-04 05:59

#31

George Victor

Ken:

"You make it sound as if playing politics with this part of history is a successful act of defiance. It isn't. It weakens the Palestinian cause everytime it's repeated.

All I'm saying is that the Palestinian leadership should exercise the revolutionary discipline to avoid stupidity.

And you don't have to be a Zionist propagandist to believe the Palestinian leadership has often been piss poor. Most Palestinians believe that a good deal of the time.

This man HELPED the Israeli side by doing this. Don't you get that?"

Yes, that is, of course, what has happened, Ken.

Fri, 2009-09-04 06:15

#32

Slumberjack

It doesn't matter how they play their cards when confronted on the other side by genocidal thugs. They could all don clothing decorated with peace signs, flowers and beads, and renounce all violence and wave white flags in the air while on their knees and still be massacred wholesale by their outlaw jailers who care nothing of innocent lives.

Fri, 2009-09-04 07:28

#33

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

It's not a "loyalty test". In this case, it's just a reality test. [...]

All they needed to say was "Of course it happened. But we didn't do it and we shouldn't have had to suffer for it". Why was it asking so much to say that?

Cueball patiently explained - even listed - the tests that the victims are required to pass in order to not be bombed, not be assassinated - to be worthy of having someone sit in the same room and negotiate with them. This Holocaust "recognition" is simply the latest flavour. It's like asking a Taliban leader to publicly read the names of all the poor young NATO troops that died and recognize the suffering of their family members. Don't apologize - just recognize.

No, Ken.

And by the way, he was not asked to recognize that the Holocaust happened. And in the truncated quotes, he never once denied that the Holocaust happened. He was asked to put it in the syllabus. So while "recognition" would be good enough for you, it's clearly not good enough for the enemies of the Palestinian people who daily come up with new excuses why they shouldn't lay down their arms and negotiate with their victims.

Fri, 2009-09-04 08:44

#34

George Victor

Your position may be as difficult an idea to sell, Ken, as "no means no", or other intricate word plays.

In history, one of the more difficult situations to explain, for some, was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact of August, 1939 in which the convoluted phrases explaining the position of Moscow became positively poetic in maintenance of a line at all costs. June, 1941, turned it all around, of course.

And so it goes. (Vonnegut)

Fri, 2009-09-04 09:20

#35

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Does anybody have a link with reliable information to show that Younis al-Astal is a "leader of Hamas" or a "spiritual advisor [b]to[/b] Hamas" - as opposed to just being a Member of Parliament and a "cleric" of some sort?

Somehow this discussion has turned the hazily-reported and MSM-filtered words of this man into some quasi-official pronouncement on behalf of Hamas. I remain unconvinced.

Many here are quick to disassociate the NDP from some of the things said by its MP's (like Dawn Black, Peter Stoffer, Pat Martin, etc.).

Fri, 2009-09-04 09:31

#36

Unionist

Good point, MS. From all I've seen so far, he's just a particularly outspoken individual MP and cleric who is on the favourite "quote this guy to stir up hatred against the Palestinians" list of MEMRI, Jihadwatch, and other notable hatemongers.

Ken, I appreciate your sentiment yet again, but this is starting to sound like the MSM going, "set a trap and see what boob walks into it - then edit their quotes so we can create a scandal".

Sat, 2009-09-05 20:26

#37

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

And I'm damn well NOT blaming the victims. I'm blaming some of those who claim to be LEADING the resistance movement on behalf of the victims for doing something that will make it easier for the victimizers to keep viuctimizing the victims.

So you are not blaming the victims only the leaders of the victims? Are not the leaders also victims of the occupation? The Isreali soldiers are the oppressors as all occupying forces are. There is no excuse justifying their oppression, full stop. Your words imply that somehow not embracing the holocoust can be a justification for Israelis who never personally suffered under the Nazis (they are all way to young). That is blaming the victim and is repugent to me.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

I said, UPTHREAD, that what Hitler did did not justify what was done to Palestinians. Did you not read that? This is about not giving the oppressors something they can use to perpetuate the oppression.

And in this case, there is a difference in status between the victims and those who claim to lead their resistance movement. The leaders, in this case, have greater priveleges, greater power, and greater responsibility. This includes the responsibility to NOT give aid and comfort to the oppressors. And aid and comfort is precisely what this man did in taking this stance. It's stupid tactics to give the Israeli side ANY chance to invoke the Shoah/churban.

The Palestinians were blameless in what Hitler did. Therefore, they have nothing to gain by playing politics with the reality of it.

Defending Hamas on this is just as stupid as that poster I got in a fight with years ago who insisted that it was perfectly acceptable to use the image of the Magen David merged with the swastika. In fact, it's just as inexcusable as defending Stalin on the Pact.

This is not debating this is a nasty attempt at bullying. Does bullying work for you in other areas of your life? Imagine someone preaching about playing politics when they opened this thread with the obvious purpose of discrediting the Palestine resistance. And then you have the audacity to compare me too someone who would use Nazi images. What have I said that would warrant that kind of defaming? What I have learnt from your posts is that after the third generation of occupation the oppressed still haven't learned to say yes sir quick enough for you. I guess you'll just have to increase your donations to the racist settlers so they can step up their efforts to teach the Palestians about oppression.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

Sat, 2009-09-05 21:42

#38

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:

Hamas "spiritual advisor" sabotages the Palestinian cause by denying the Holocaust

Let's agree he's not actually denying anything. Now, I would agree children, all children, should learn history. I would NOT agree the statements or views of one man should color my opinion of, or damn, an entire people. Otherwise, what would I have to decide about Israel with their foreign minister?

But let's agree the holocaust stands apart from the rest of history including the extermination of entire peoples by Israel's current benefactors, would you agree, then, that Israel has sabotaged its own cause by removing the word "nakba", denying Palestinian catastrophe, from Israeli text books?

Or is that ... different?

Sun, 2009-09-06 00:46

#39

al-Qa'bong

Cueball wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

It's not a "loyalty test". In this case, it's just a reality test. There was never any reason for them to play politics on this particular issue.

No. It is an loyalty test, and one that plays upon a very old Zionist cannard about how the Palestinian leadership fails its people and is the cause of Palestinian woes. All you are doing is replacing the bit about how "not saying" blah blah (whatever blah blah is this year) is an expression of antisemetism, and saying it indicates that they are failing their people, by not going out of their way to prove that they are not anti-semites by submitting to the loyalty test.

The loyalty test is still in there. I don't mean to be harsh, but you are the good cop saying sign the loyalty test for your own good.

Great minds, etc?

We're going to have to start calling you "The Angry Babbler."

Quote:
Members of the U.S. Congress on Friday urged European foreign ministers to denounce an article published in the Swedish daily Aftonbladet alleging that Israel Defense Forces soldiers kill Palestinians in order to harvest their organs." It struck after reading this how often Zionists in the US and Israel regularly, if not daily, ask people, organizations, and states to condemn, denounce, and renounce. Non-stop. They are often hectoring: condemn this and that. They even asked Arafat to condemn his people's armed struggle for liberation, and the buffoon of course complied.

Condemn this and that, on behalf of Israeli occupation

Sun, 2009-09-06 01:06

#40

Ken Burch

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Quote:

Hamas "spiritual advisor" sabotages the Palestinian cause by denying the Holocaust

Let's agree he's not actually denying anything. Now, I would agree children, all children, should learn history. I would NOT agree the statements or views of one man should color my opinion of, or damn, an entire people. Otherwise, what would I have to decide about Israel with their foreign minister?

But let's agree the holocaust stands apart from the rest of history including the extermination of entire peoples by Israel's current benefactors, would you agree, then, that Israel has sabotaged its own cause by removing the word "nakba", denying Palestinian catastrophe, from Israeli text books?

Or is that ... different?

That's not at all different, and I do agree that the Israeli government was wrong to do that. You had no reason to think I'd back the Israeli government up on that, as I denounced them for it upthread.

There has never been a time I've let the Israeli government off the hook for anything.

Sun, 2009-09-06 01:08

#41

Ken Burch

Also, since there seems to be at least some truth to the organ theft story, I would not agree that the Israeli government has the right to demand denunciations of it.

So don't be so damn smug about what you think I believe here, folks. I've never been an apologist for the Israeli government.

Sun, 2009-09-06 01:10

#42

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

And yet you don't accuse them of denying the nakba and sabotaging the Israeli cause. Why not?

Sun, 2009-09-06 01:18

#43

al-Qa'bong

FM, you're asking Ken Burch to do what the Zionists ask of the Palestinian leadership - to take an oath and denounce something.

Ken's been a pretty strong friend to the Palestinian cause around here, and given his history, this attack on him is misguided.

Sun, 2009-09-06 02:12

#44

Ken Burch

OK, they are denying the nakba and sabotaging the Israeli cause. So there, FM.

Thanks for the support, al-Qa'bong.

Sun, 2009-09-06 05:22

#45

George Victor

The attack(s) on Ken are beyond "misguided". I had not thought that people so fair-miinded as Ken could be treated in this completely unwarranted, inquisitorial fashion. Try taking deep breaths, chaps, and second thoughts about reading something into others' statements or minds.

FM (2 weeks ago):

"Rabble is no such thing. Rabble is a diverse group of people representing any number of interests but no coherent political movement, analysis, or strategy. Most people come here to debate the issues of the day, some to grind an axe, some to provide the dessiminated talking points, and some purely for entertainment. But babble is not changing the world."

On this point, I'd say the old axe must be sharp enough by now, FM. Pointlessly so, really, in such a diverse community where the world is not about to be changed...

Sun, 2009-09-06 10:12

#46

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Nonsense. I've never seen such a thread title to describe an entire nation inspiration as being sabitaged by a single statement by one guy and coupled with an accusation of "holocaust denial" where no such denial occured, and, meanwhile, ignoring that said speaker just saw his land and people brutally massacred and is neighbourhoods reduced to rubble, while children are malnourished, and drinking filthy water, and the old and sick die. slow, painful deaths denied even the most basic humanitarian supplies.

Would the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto have been eager to teach their children about Germany's shame at Versailles? Would we demand they did or claim they've sabotaged their cause because someone said they wouldn't?

It is one thing to colour an entire people from a statement made by one guy, but to compound it by entirley ignoring the context of the realities is quite another. I'm not in such a generous mood and, really, Ken should have known better.

Quote:

FM, you're asking Ken Burch to do what the Zionists ask of the Palestinian leadership - to take an oath and denounce something.

I'm not doing that at all. I'm questioning why one Palestinian speaker is responsible for "sabotaging" the aspirations of the entire Palestinian people. He wrote the thread title so he should be prepared to defend it or ask that it be changed.

Sun, 2009-09-06 10:40

#47

Stockholm

"Would the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto have been eager to teach their children about Germany's shame at Versailles?"

No, but would Jewish leaders try to claim that World War One never took place and that no Germans died violently between 1914 and 1918? and that there was no such a thing as a treaty of Versailles? I think not.

This is not about what should be on the curriculum in schools. This is about the impact of the Palestinian cause when one of their leaders starts denying that the Holocaust took place.

Sun, 2009-09-06 10:50

#48

Unionist

No one in this thread - least of all, champions of the "Jewish" state - has any business lecturing Palestinians as to what they should teach their children. Our sole task as foreigners and progressives is to ensure that Israel abides by international law and basic principles of human rights. Once that's done, you can send proposed syllabi to a future Palestinian educational ministry.

Sun, 2009-09-06 10:58

#49

Stockholm

"No one in this thread has any business lecturing Palestinians as to what they should teach their children."

For the ONE HUNDREDTH TIME - NO ONE IS DOING THAT!!!!!! I don't give a damn what is or is not on the syllabus in Palestnians schools. But when a highly placed person in Hamas makes a public statement that the Holocaust is a lie and never happened - there are consequences. What would have been so difficult about him simply saying "teaching our children about the Holocaust is not our priority at this time" as opposed to saying that it never happened?

Sun, 2009-09-06 11:01

#50

Unionist

In Ken's case, I think he simply got sucked in by a typical anti-Palestinian baiting MSM report into thinking that some actual Hamas spokesperson (he isn't) denied the Holocaust (he didn't) and that it matters (it doesn't). Ken's heart is in the right place, but this story went over his head. I have studiously avoided criticizing him personally about repeating this propaganda, but I do wish he would have a better look at how this vicious baiting and slander actually plays out.

As for Stockholm... no comment.

Sun, 2009-09-06 11:05

#51

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Unionist wrote:

In Ken's case, I think he simply got sucked in by a typical anti-Palestinian baiting MSM report into thinking that some actual Hamas spokesperson (he isn't) denied the Holocaust (he didn't) and that it matters (it doesn't). Ken's heart is in the right place, but this story went over his head. I have studiously avoided criticizing him personally about repeating this propaganda, but I do wish he would have a better look at how this vicious baiting and slander actually plays out.

As for Stockholm... no comment.

I agree with you entirely.

Stockholm is seldom worth comment.

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