And in your search for "truth" , you also pass over the idea that perhaps the moderate Palestinian is correct in not presenting himself as a target for that press that informs the average understanding? What the MSM says is NOT "important here"?
Hamas "spiritual advisor" damages the Palestinian cause by denying the Holocaust
Wed, 2009-09-09 14:33
#102
Wed, 2009-09-09 14:52
#103
Cueball
I think I am correct in asserting that the western press does not cover "moderate" palestinian leadership, in general. It is what the MSM does not say, rather than what it says that is important in this case. I think we can say it here, even if they will not.
Wed, 2009-09-09 14:56
#104
WE can repeat it until we are blue in the face, Cue, (and feeling virtuous is fine, that point is well taken), but I fail to see the political value of your position OUT THERE where it might amount to more than a hill of beans.
Wed, 2009-09-09 15:01
#105
Cueball
In that case you could stop posting and move on to more relevant activities I suppose.
Wed, 2009-09-09 15:11
#106
I'll leave the logic of your statement for you to mull over, Cue, thanks for the invitation. But I will say that even in your small world, "THE TRUTH" needs tio be protected. You know, it's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.
Wed, 2009-09-09 15:12
#107
I think I am correct in asserting that the western press does not cover "moderate" palestinian leadership, in general. It is what the MSM does not say, rather than what it says that is important in this case. I think we can say it here, even if they will not.
You are certainly correct on that. You could also have said that the western press doesn't cover secular and left Palestinian leaders, for that matter, having as it does a fixation with trying to make the Israeli case that all Palestinians are crazed ultrareligious nutjobs.
One point that someone in alternative media should try to investigate is whether the figure we've been discussing in this thread might, in fact, be a collaborator with the Israelis. Usually such collaborators don't act out of any warmth towards Israelis, but out of a desire to settle scores with someone else in the Palestnian community or in whatever faction they're involved in(or were barred from getting involved in). It's possible that that person might be saying things like this because the Israelis pay him to do so.
Wed, 2009-09-09 15:22
#108
Cueball
You seem to be going off again George. Speaking of "small": what precisely do you mean by "even in your small world, "THE TRUTH" needs tio be protected", because that sounds like an ad hominem pejorative personal attack on a number of levels to me. Am I right?
You seem to be asserting that someone in this "small world" has said something untruthful. Do you have anything of substance to add?
Wed, 2009-09-09 15:47
#109
Ahh, the TRUTH!
Well, we're all about the truth here. Truth is, I read the article linked to in the OP and it just doesn't say what it's purported to say. I'm not sayin' the guy is or isn't a holocaust denier, I just don't know from the article. As for whether he's a blithering idiot or surpassingly evil, ken I'm holding out for more choices. Cleverly written piece though. As someone had mentioned above, had he really denied the holocoaust I don't doubt it would have been laid out in the first paragraph.
Anyhoo, sitting here on my well upholstered butt enjoying the pleasant view out my office window, it's easy for me to lament on everyones suffering, historical and present, and to raise a judgemental eyebrow at any who would deny the genuine suffering of another. Were I experienceing what I understand to be the realities of the West Bank and Gaza however, The last goddam thing in the world I'd want to hear about is the past suffering of a brutal oppressor who wants me to understand the historical defining events of his people so I can appreciate why he's taken my land and is running a tank through my house.
I was going to say that pushing the inclusion of education about the experience of Jews in Europe was ill thought out, but as a PR measure it's been damn clever, hasn't it.
This is getting long, but we'll leave it open a bit as I don't like to be a last word hog.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:09
#110
Frustrated Mess
Do you not think it possible that if the moderate Palestinians - who are very understanding of just what Ken and I are trying to put across, and practising that restraint - are on the right track?
It doesn't matter George. The Israelis and the MSM will always trumpet the one person who says the "wrong" thing while ignoring all others. Do you know, every single day Palestinians engage in peaceful protest against the occupation and they are met, every single day, with violent repression. Every single day Palestinian children as young as 8 are arrested and sometimes tortured. You don't read about these things in the MSM, George. You don't read about Israeli soldiers and settlers assualting, vicously, Palestinian goat herders and olive growers. We can't wait for the MSM to do the right thing. It won't. It is our role to point our fingers at it and call it what is - complicit in cultural genocide.
And, George, even if I could, I would not tell a dispossessed people, forsaken, brutalized, subject to mass murder and facing cultural genocide, that they should be nicer to their oppressor. We have all been far too nice to this racist and cruel regime.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:10
#111
Before you close the thread, OG, could you please edit it for accuracy. My suggestion:
"Hamas person does something (or nothing) to the Palestinian cause by ... oh forget it"
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:15
#112
FM, it's not about being nicer to an oppressor. It's about not giving the oppressor a weapon to use against you. At some point you'll have to face the fact that there's a difference. And yes, the MSM will always jump on it when someone in the Palestinian leadership says the wrong thing. All the more reason to NOT SAY THE WRONG THING. It's not like this guy had no choice but to say what he said. If nothing else he could've said "no comment".
Palestinians have the right to resist. Nothing I've said in this thread goes against that idea.
This will be the last post I make in this thread.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:17
#113
Frustrated Mess
The Israelis have never needed an excuse to kill and persecute Palestinians, Ken. Maybe you've missed that.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:19
#114
Palestinians have the right to resist.
And Palestinians, when faced with white western U.N. officials or other do-gooders who want to teach their children about the Nazi genocide of the Jews, have the right to say: "Go fuck yourself, sir." That's one of those "human rights" that we hear so much about.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:28
#115
Cueball
FM, it's not about being nicer to an oppressor. It's about not giving the oppressor a weapon to use against you. At some point you'll have to face the fact that there's a difference. And yes, the MSM will always jump on it when someone in the Palestinian leadership says the wrong thing. All the more reason to NOT SAY THE WRONG THING. It's not like this guy had no choice but to say what he said. If nothing else he could've said "no comment".
Palestinians have the right to resist. Nothing I've said in this thread goes against that idea.
This will be the last post I make in this thread.
Yeah. So you know all about the situation, and how things are manipulated and how irrelevant this guy very likely is as a "spiritual advisor" and instead of ignoring it, and moving on and bringing to light some of the other alternate sources for information about Palestine and palestinians, waste your time attacking the "presumed" Palestinian leadership, supporting the notion even that they are prominent and important ( I have never heard of this guy before. Who the fuck is he?) and adding credibility to the claims made in the original article, and substantiate it, give it credence, and advertize it around and otherwise promote ongoing disinformation, even after the original article has been thoroughly deconstructed.
Give me a Haneyah, or an Abbas, or a Barghouti at least, someone who has some established credentials, before we start talking about Palestinian "leadership".
I am flumoxed by the purpose of your allegedly supportive behaviour and how it works in the real world.
Wed, 2009-09-09 16:38
#116
I wrote:
"So you are not blaming the victims only the leaders of the victims? Are not the leaders also victims of the occupation? The Isreali soldiers are the oppressors as all occupying forces are. There is no excuse justifying their oppression, full stop. Your words imply that somehow not embracing the holocoust can be a justification for Israelis who never personally suffered under the Nazis (they are all way to young). That is blaming the victim and is repugent to me."
Ken's response:
"Defending Hamas on this is just as stupid as that poster I got in a fight with years ago who insisted that it was perfectly acceptable to use the image of the Magen David merged with the swastika. In fact, it's just as inexcusable as defending Stalin on the Pact."
I did not defend Hamas, I pointed out your language was my problem and that you compared me to someone who uses Nazi imagery. I will state it again since you seem to be having trouble with my actual words. Read above I nowhere defended Hamas. I said;
"Your words imply that somehow not embracing the holocoust can be a justification for Israelis who never personally suffered under the Nazis (they are all way to young). That is blaming the victim and is repugent to me."
You further claim in defence of your use of the Nazi card to silence debate:
"I didn't use it as a sword against you. Your response here is way over the top. Everything I said in this thread made it clear that the Holocaust did NOT justify the Occupation. This is the OPPOSITE of using Nazi imagery against you. My intent was to refute your point, not to silence you. Don't blame me because you have a completely unjustified persecution complex."
Again I ask you what was over the top about the fact that I think your language is blaming the victim. I notice that with Unionist you have not attacked him for saying the exact same thing in slightly different words.
"Progressive people should be able to see through these flimsy attempts to find fault with the victims, which is one of the key aims of the Holocaust Industry."
And one final point Ken I think this statement is a personal attack on me and is totally unjustified:
"Don't blame me because you have a completely unjustified persecution complex."
Your idea that somehow you have enough "Palestinian sympathy" to be able to blame ANY PALESTINIAN (leader or otherwise) for the actions of the Israelis actively involved in the Israeli occupation should be used in the dictionaries as an example of chutzpah. But go ahead you can believe you are not blaming the victims if it makes you feel superior to those who would be stupid enough to speak intemperately about their occupiers.
Wed, 2009-09-09 18:07
#117
Well you can't argue with a guy who talks in italics, so kropotkin gets the last word.
unless of course someone starts a new thread!
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