To humour you:
YES, Unionist. The Dalai Lama is a misogynistic, Arab-hating, eugenics-supporting, nuclear-bomb loving double agent who's only pretending to be a humble exiled spiritual leader. You nailed it, as always, Unionist!
Now can we please have a discussion complaining about Cat Stevens and his lack of (or REFUSAL to TAKE??!) any credible position on the tar sands?? I mean, come ON.
And don't even get me started on the Queen... Or Leonard Cohen.
This link http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/buddhistethics/abortion... offers a good explanation of buddist views on abortion.
I don't agree that abortion is murder but as long as the Dalai Lama doesn't interfere with my right to choose or promote laws that would he is entitled to his opinion.
To humour you:
YES, Unionist. The Dalai Lama is a misogynistic, Arab-hating, eugenics-supporting, nuclear-bomb loving double agent who's only pretending to be a humble exiled spiritual leader. You nailed it, as always, Unionist!
Funny, jas, I quote what he says, and you just keep talking about me. Always. Why don't you read the topic of the thread and see if this Tibetan emperor in fact is wearing any clothes?
Or, we should forgive him his stand on when abortion should be [b]"allowed"[/b] because he's a holy man? Or because some people in this thread are just so shocked that anyone would dare to criticize this "SAINT"? And daring to criticize this "SAINT" is exactly what's wrong with THE LEFT today?
Interesting that you mock the notion of criticizing Leonard Cohen as well. In his case, Palestinian civil society has requested that we support their cause by boycotting him. Just imagine, the nerve of those people.
I don't agree that abortion is murder but as long as the Dalai Lama doesn't interfere with my right to choose or promote laws that would he is entitled to his opinion.
Of course he's entitled to his opinion. People are also entitled to harbour racist and supremacist and any other opinions. Likewise, when this very influential and public figure states publicly that abortion is murder but that it should be "allowed" when the foetus is imperfect and some other cases, people are entitled to condemn him for that.
The point of this thread isn't the freedom of conscience of the Dalai Lama. It is to determine whether he has anything important to say. I believe that the non-clownish or platitudinous things he says are, for the most part, reflective of a social conservative and pro-Western ideology whose content is harmful to the rights and freedoms of the ordinary people of this world. And I'm entitled to that opinion, which I have been trying to back up with quotes and facts.
I think another important question to ask is, "How much influence or impact does what the Dalai Lama (like the Pope) says, have?" "Should it?" "If what the Dalai Lama says, matters - why?"
I actually wrote to the Dalai Lama when he met with Bush in 2007. I just found their email response
"I want to acknowledge receipt of your email sent to the Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama dated 19 October 2007.
We appreciate your concerns and thank you for sharing them with us. However, we do not feel that His Holiness's meeting with
President of the United States George Bush is an acceptance of the U.S. administration's present policies.
On the one hand, His Holiness regards everyone he meets as a fellow human being, sharing similar experiences,
aspirations and so forth. Politics apart, on a personal human level, His Holiness has found George W. Bush to
be a warm and responsive man who has extended the hand of friendship to him. At the same time, Mr. Bush holds the
office of President of one of the world's leading nations, an office to which he has been democratically elected.
His Holiness repeatedly asserts the importance of dialogue as a means of exchanging views, bringing about change and
solving problems. To engage in dialogue you have to be prepared to meet the other party, so naturally, presented with
the opportunity to meet President of the United States, His Holiness is happy to do so."
What did you write to him, NRK?
[url=http://www.tibet.com/NewsRoom/hhdcvisit3.htm][color=red]His Holiness the Dalai Lama given America's highest civilian honor[/color][/url]
US President George Bush and Congress conferred His Holiness the Dalai Lama with the top US civilian award - the Congressional Gold Medal at an elaborate ceremony in the Rotunda of the U.S. Capitol building yesterday.George W. Bush, the first sitting U.S. president to appear in public event with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, despite strong objections from China and urged the government in Beijing to welcome the Tibetan spiritual leader back to the country.
The President called His Holiness the Dalai Lama, a "universal symbol of peace and tolerance." [...]
On receiving the top US gold medal, His Holiness said, he was "deeply touched" to receive such a "great honour".
"I believe that this award also sends a powerful message to those individuals who are dedicated to promoting peace," His Holiness said.
Message received.
The Dalai Lama is a Creepy Asshole (and vid)
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2023/04/10/the-dalai-lama-is-a-creepy-asshole/
"There's a really gross video going around of the Dalai Lama kissing a young boy on the lips and telling him to suck his tongue while an adult audience looks on approvingly...
'Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth' by Michael Parenti."
Riight... because a "well-paid CIA agent" is going to blow his reputation with a stupid move like this.
Several friends of mine were freaked out by the story. Then the news came out about what it really means.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5854/tibetans-explain-what-suck-my-ton...
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/dalai-lama-tongue-kissing-greet...
I am not so sure about the accusation that this story is being spun by the CCP to discredit him, but the explanation that it is more about local tradition, translation, and western misunderstanding does make sense.
A lot more sense than it being a sexual move done in a public place in front of cameras.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/dalai-lama-tongue-kissing-greet...
I am not so sure about the accusation that this story is being spun by the CCP to discredit him, but the explanation that it is more about local tradition, translation, and western misunderstanding does make sense.
A lot more sense than it being a sexual move done in a public place in front of cameras.
"After holding the boy’s chin and kissing him, the Dalai Lama touches foreheads with the boy and then can be heard saying, in English, “can you suck my tongue”. He then sticks out his tongue as the boy leans forward briefly.
Child rights activist Shola Mos-Shogbamimu said we should not normalise child molestation under the garb of playful behaviour with children.
“This is NOT playful banter & so inappropriate to use ‘affectionately plants kiss’ alongside ‘suck my tongue’. Hugs are fine not this. Don’t normalise molestation of kids - don’t care how revered the Dalai Lama is I’m not OK with a child sucking a grown man/woman/anyone’s tongue,” she said.
Nilanjana Bhowmick, an Indian journalist and commentator, said “there is a difference between sticking out your tongue and asking a minor to suck it!”
Tell me Winston why do you insist on using the stupid CCP instead of the CPC? Its as stupid as talking about the OGP in the US instead of the GOP. I mean who can tell the difference between the Grand Old Party and the Old Grand Party. Ignorance is not bliss it is merely ignorance.
Did you also read the bit about him learning English at age 48, and that not being the word he was shooting for? We already know people are setting their hair on fire over this, and that he has apologized. So yes, I can read English, I read the whole article, and no I am not surprised and it really doesn't change things. My point is that he didn't just make this up. it is actually based on their tradition.
"Suck and blow", as you so often say. Right? If we want to get into smears and misinterpreting words.
Then there is our colleague who seems overly-fascinated by tongues. Not that I toss a lot of insults around here, but I don't just limit it to one fetish.
x
Tell me Winston why do you insist on using the stupid CCP instead of the CPC? Its as stupid as talking about the OGP in the US instead of the GOP. I mean who can tell the difference between the Grand Old Party and the Old Grand Party. Ignorance is not bliss it is merely ignorance.
Well obviously because I am stupid and ignorant.
Maybe you should yell at these people too., as they don't even have an entry under the official name
Is it really worth the points?
Indeed if you call our ruling party the CLP it would be just as right and you would sound just as stupid. You should really start calling the GOP the OGP as well because it shows your in depth understanding of geopolitical affairs.
Just so you know I consider wikki to be a very, very poor citation for anything to do with any of the US's "enemies." But it is the go to site for imperialists to prove that the US is righteous.
Gotcha, k. I'm really stoopid
Any other points (considering how stoopid I am) or are you done?
If you want to display your right to be purposefully ignorant then I have no problem making fun of your comments. So did you vote for the CLP in the last election?
Never voted Liberal in my life, even when I lived in Axworthy Lloyd's riding and an orange vote was thrown away.
(Most of us understand vernacular and deliberate code)
Dalai Lama: 'I Love George Bush'
https://www.politico.com/blogs/click/2012/04/dalai-lama-i-love-george-w-...
"...But as a person, as a human being, very nice person. I love him."
But only as a paymaster. No tongue.
Most of us understand vernacular and deliberate code
Indeed the use of CCP instead of the vernacular CPC is a deliberate code that is intended to be an insult. So you are not stoopid but only deliberately confrontational when it comes to talking about China.
Tell me Winston why do you insist on using the stupid CCP instead of the CPC? Its as stupid as talking about the OGP in the US instead of the GOP. I mean who can tell the difference between the Grand Old Party and the Old Grand Party. Ignorance is not bliss it is merely ignorance.
*sigh*
Let me know when you make up your mind, k. Is it confrontational or stupid, and it is deliberate or ignorant?
Anyway, you are right about it not being vernacular. It isn't just us confrontational westerners. Turns out "Chinese Communist Party" is used sometimes in China, including by journalists.
Global Times (first paragraph):
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202304/1289669.shtml
South China Morning Post (first bullet):
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3217784/us-...
A tourism site that uses both:
http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/
Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, and a Chinese Consul-General quoted in the article:
https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/wjb_663304/zwjg_665342/zwbd_665378/202106/t20...
The OGP is not doing very well in the US is it?
Nope. They are kind of fucked up at the moment.
"Many are asking an obvious question after the Dalai Lama's tongue-sucking request. If that was in public, what happens in private? The answer isn't pretty..."
https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1645654178281443336
Buddhism, The Law of Silence - Abuses in Tibetan Buddhism (documentary)
"An international icon, the Dalai Lama himself has long covered up the secrety dealings of those who serve the expansion of his religion. This edifying documentary helps to unravel the 'flowery' Western view of exotic Tibetan Buddhism."
The Dalai Lama is just another religious pedophile. It is one of the good reasons for not allowing children under the age of eighteen too interact with them formally. Imagine a person who from his youth has been told he is a living god and then contrast that to a young child being told to suck the tongue of that living god. I don't give a flying fuck about culture that is child abuse.
"He is considered a living Bodhisattva; specifically, an emanation of Avalokiteśvara in Sanskrit and Chenrezig in Tibetan. He is also the leader and a monk of the Gelug school, the newest school of Tibetan Buddhism, formally headed by the Ganden Tripa. The central government of Tibet, the Ganden Phodrang, invested the Dalai Lama with temporal duties until his exile in 1959."
The Dalia Lama like most religous leaders is a flawed person in a fucked up role. There is a a shopping cart of things to attack him on. I don't know why we have to go out of our way to stretch a cultural tradition into pedophilia.
a cultural tradition
Is that like priests diddling altar boys? After all by all reports it has been happening for centuries. Culture is not an excuse for child abuse. Even the Dali Lama himself understands that it was inappropriate, which is why he apologized to the child and family.
"Defending the Dalai Lama, he continued: “Bringing in narrative of other cultures, customs and social influence on gender and sexuality to interpret Tibetan way of expression is heinous.”
Is that like saying that the Iranian idea that women must be covered in public is just a part of its long history of its traditions and customs and social influence on gender and sexuality.
I think it is a lot closer to "pull my finger".
It is interesting to note the video that has gone viral was edited to alter the message.
Is that like saying that the Iranian idea that women must be covered in public is just a part of its long history of its traditions and customs and social influence on gender and sexuality.
Why... did Tibet have laws forcing people to stick their tongues out as a greeting, and were they beaten to death if they didn't?
No. I expect that false comparison would get used more to excuse the genocide in the Uyghur autonomous zone.
And to be fair, in plenty of western countries to refuse people work by imposing hijab bans.
And to be fair, in plenty of western countries to refuse people work by imposing hijab bans.
The Dali Lama is not my focus. I prefer to put myself in the shoes of the young boy meeting his spiritual leader. What culture did this boy grow up in that he would expect a prominent adult to say suck my tongue in front of cameras. Where the fuck is that the norm for a culture, is it in the Tibetan ex-pat community or somewhere else? It seems to me that it highlights a very deep seated problem in whatever culture this supposed normal practice derives from.
What culture did this boy grow up in that he would expect a prominent adult to say suck my tongue in front of cameras. Where the fuck is that the norm for a culture, is it in the Tibetan ex-pat community or somewhere else? It seems to me that it highlights a very deep seated problem in whatever culture this supposed normal practice derives from.
It sounds like in regard to Tibetans you are having a bad case of “white man’s burden.” Unfortunately China is “helping” Tibetans “civilize” themselves away from their cultural “barbarism” through China’s modern day versions of forced assimilation, residential schools, and genocide.
Members of Tibetan diaspora call for greater cultural sensitivity from the media
Members of Toronto's Tibetan community say they have been suffering for weeks since a video circulated showing the Dalai Lama kissing a young boy on the lips and asking him to "suck my tongue."
Nyila Tsedon, a Tibetan in exile who has lived in Toronto since 2004, says she's been deeply impacted by the criticism that has been levied at the spiritual leader.
She said it pains her that the world has misunderstood what she believes is an innocent interaction.
"I am so sad. I feel like crying and I'm real shocked," Tsedon told CBC Toronto. "I hate that video. Dalai Lama is very innocent, playful, very compassionate."
At a public event in India on Feb. 28, a young boy approached the Dalai Lama, 87, and asked for a hug.
That's when the controversial interaction took place. At the time, video of the entire event was published online. But in early April, a clip containing only an edited version of the interaction began circulating. That was followed by a social media firestorm condemning the exchange as inappropriate, which was widely reported on in the media, including by CBC News.
The Dalai Lama later issued an apology on his website "to the boy and his family, as well as his many friends across the world." The statement said the spiritual leader regretted the incident, but "often teases people he meets in an innocent and playful way."
Video taken out of context, say some
Many Tibetans who spoke to CBC News say the controversy is the result of a cultural misunderstanding and that mainstream media need to do better when reporting on topics of cultural sensitivity.
Local community organizer Sonam Chokey also underscored the Dalai Lama's innocence.
Community organizer, Sonam Chokey, says the controversy around the Dalai Lama is a result of cultural misunderstanding and that there was nothing sexual about the incident.
"His Holiness was showing his warmth towards this young boy," she said, explaining that in Tibetan culture, interactions like this are a form of good-natured teasing and common between elders and children.
Chokey also explained that the phrase "eat my tongue" is often used in these interactions and said the Dalai Lama likely mistranslated the phrase due to his broken English.
"I really do understand why the world first reacted the way they did," she added. "Child abuse, especially coming from powerful people, powerful institutions, people from religious institutions — we know there's decades of abuse that have been recorded."
But she maintained this interaction was not an example of abuse.
Chemi Lhamo, another Toronto-based community organizer of Tibetan descent, told CBC Toronto when the interaction took place, no one in the Tibetan community questioned it.
"Nothing was abnormal," she said. "In fact, I saw a lot of YouTube comments of the actual video that was posted in February where folks were like, 'This young boy is so lucky. How much good karma would this boy have accumulated to be able to have this type of interaction with His Holiness?'"
The boy and his mother later later said in an interview that the interaction was a blessing to them, Lhamo added.
After Tibet was annexed by communist China in 1949, the Dalai Lama fled to India in 1959, forming a government in exile. He has since become an international figure known for his teachings on love, compassion and goodness. He is revered by the Tibetan diaspora as well as those still living in Tibet, which was occupied by China in 1951.
"This is like our family member, our grandfather, you know, our father being attacked," Chokey said.
'Not everything is just black and white'
Sonam Wangyal, with local Tibetan cultural group, Dhokham Chishigangdruk Canada, told CBC Toronto, the biggest problem is that most mainstream media outlets aired the edited clip without any situational or cultural context.
"When the Western media and Western folks looked at that video, that's where the miscommunication and misunderstanding occurred," he said.
He's asking for media outlets to do better and to ensure that in the future reports like this one about the Dalai Lama include the perspectives of community members.
Some members of the Tibetan community say they've faced discrimination since the video was circulated. Youngdoung Tenzin, of the Canadian Tibetan Association of Ontario, told CBC Toronto that some school children have been bullied over the incident.
In addition, some Tibetans say the media should do a better job of covering issues of importance to the diaspora.
"If you really want to spread and talk about meaningful journalism, right now we are talking about 1,000,000 Tibetan kids who are going to residential programs," Wangyal said, referring to children as young as four being forced to attend Chinese-run boarding schools in Tibet.
Wangyal said with the media often not covering the long history of Tibetan oppression, it's unfair they chose to run a seconds-long video of their cultural leader that he believes has been sensationalized.
Lhamo agrees.
"Not everything is just black and white," she said. "There's so many complexities and nuances that needs to be taken into context and understanding to be able to make sense of the situation."
On Wednesday afternoon, hundreds of people gathered in a park outside the CBC Broadcast Centre on Front and John streets to demand that the media "tell the truth" about the Dalai Lama. The demonstrators marched from Parkdale's Little Tibet neighbourhood to Simcoe Park.
Many held posters and waved Tibetan flags.
"Media media, tell the truth," they chanted. "We stand with the Dalai Lama."
It is all just a cultural misunderstanding. How could anyone who claims to follow the vinaya be an abuser. It is not my white man's burden it is my firm belief that many religious figures in all the religions on the planet abuse children. The fact is that the private space of this child was violated for the amusement of the head of a religion that has its fair share of abusers. What looks like culturally appropriate behavior to you looks like grooming to me. Apparently Buddhist monks don't age well.
A Buddhist monk has been sentenced to 11 years in prison for sexually abusing two girls at a Winnipeg temple.
Southone Silaphet, 74, was convicted of two counts of sexual interference in December 2021. He was the head monk of Wat Lao Xayaram Temple on Sinclair Street in Winnipeg's North End for 12 years.
The victims were aged two and six when the abuse began in May 2011, and it carried on for eight years, according to court records.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/buddhist-monk-sentenced-sexual-a...
A Buddhist monk who molested two girls' in their homes after befriending their parents has been jailed for just two years.
Kojiu Takeuchi, who calls himself Buddha Maitreya, pleaded guilty at Hove Crown Court to three counts of sexually abusing the girls.
The offences came to light following media reports of a separate case, when Takeuchi, 82, was jailed in October 2020 for sexually abusing a girl from the age of three until she was nine in her Brighton home between 1975 and 1981.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11240187/Buddhist-monk-sexually...
In rural Thailand, being a novice is a ticket for poor boys to get a free education, shelter and financial support. Without proper oversight, sexual abuse is rife, both among the older and younger novices...
https://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1782969/temples-no-longer-sa...
What looks like culturally appropriate behavior to you looks like grooming to me. Apparently Buddhist monks don't age well.
Why do you think you are in a better position than Tibetans and Buddhists to judge the actions of the Tibetan Dalai Lama and insinuate that he is a “groomer?” Do you think the Dalai Lama “grooms” children? According to Tibetans the boy and his mother have said in an interview that their interaction with the Dalai Lama “was a blessing to them.” Maybe we should set aside our political biases and white mans’ burden a bit and listen to the perspective of Tibetans and Buddhists concerning their cultures and societies?
I think JKR that you like theocracies. You support the Jewish theocracy and the apartheid regimes "right to exist" and you would support a Buddhist theocracy as well it seems.
I think that religious figures in all religions groom children. I would be saying the same things if the Pope had playfully told a child to pull a finger. Grooming is the part of the "game" where you get children feeling comfortable about having their private spaces invaded. It is not just religious people of course who are pedophiles but they have the easiest access to children so therefore the highest ratio of pedophiles.
I dislike religion although I support your right to believe in whatever fantasy world you see fit. I think that children need protection from religious figures especially in religions like the Catholic church where the laity believe in a semi-god like leader. It is part of the same culture that leads inevitably to many types of abuse of women and children.
I think JKR that you like theocracies.
I support democracy and I also support basic rights including freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, etc…. I oppose pedophilia and I also oppose falsely accusing a person of being a pedophile. I think it’s important to verify facts before accusing others.
So kropotkin, I happened to see your recent post in the Ukraine thread where you characterize a mocking image of Kali as the work of "white supremacists", "racist assholes" and no way to make friends in the largest country in the world, whatever that means.
And the link you posted goes on to call it "Hinduphobic".
https://babble.rabble.ca/comment/5732764#comment-5732764
You take a similarly hard line in this thread, though in exactly the opposite direction. You seem pretty scathing of religion. One might venture to guess it is because this case involves China, and the other involves Ukraine. But I am sure you have a better explanation for the contradiction. I think what you say in this thread is closer to your real feelings, as you have expressed it more than once. So I do wonder what you are on about in that other thread.
Anyway, I'm not sure what this case has to do with religion at all, as it is a cultural practice. No one has said there is anything in Tibetan scripture about sticking your tongue out as a greeting.
I could respond to your other post in that other thread, but it seems more appropriate here. I am an atheist, but I am of two minds about it. I don't like cultural appropriation or gratuitous mockery of others' culture, so yeah, I get that some would be upset by something that was culturally insensitive.
On the other hand, outright condemnation of making fun of others' imaginary beings seems a bit of a dangerous line to me. Is it religious or racial discrimination to make fun of other people's deities? I am not sure most human rights tribunals would agree.
Maybe kropotkin knows of some kind of huge difference between Tibetan Buddhism and Hinduism?
Well he said "all religions".
Though again, I am curious to know how this is about religion.
Seems like it's about political preferences and biases causing inconsistent favouritism toward some religions and prejudice against others. Saying all religions are evil is also too simplistic and too reductionist. Spirituality is an integral part of healthy human societies which can also include atheism. People seeking transcendence in groups is also a basic part of humanity. As a world wide recognized and respected spiritual figure the Dalai Lama is a part of that spiritual process for millions of people even though the Chinese government abhors it.
I think all religions given their histories are equally as capable of great evil. I also believe that the worst form of government is one that gives more rights to some people based on their religion. The Holy Roma Empire is called the Dark Ages for a reason. The Tibetan theocracy was in the same category. Historically the European political culture includes the HRE but frankly I don't much like feudalism even if it does have a long lineage in European history.
Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel are all theocracies that could use an upgrade in democratic institutions but then so could Jordan and Bahrain and other monarchies. When political rights are tied to "Divine Rights" democracy is not possible.
Spirituality is an integral part of healthy human societies which can also include atheism. People seeking transcendence in groups is also a basic part of humanity.I agree completely with that statement. I however believe that it is at the point when that inherent spirituality gets captured by a ruling class that it becomes evil. The Pope or Dali Lama in this age are not the same as they were in days of the past. The closest we have in this age is Ali Khamenei.
Both the Holy Roman Empire and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard spring from that same well of basic human spirituality. They are extreme examples of what happens when people's spirituality is controlled by the state. I think that the traditional Tibetan mix of spirituality and indentured servitude is not something that needs to be exalted as a good just because the religion is also a powerful path to follow for people seeking spiritual enlightenment.
The Holy Roman Empire was founded in the latter part of the Dark Ages and lasted right through the reformation until the 1800s. And holy? Like most monarchies of the time it claimed divine political power through Rome, but that was about it.
Kind of like the "defender of the faith" thing the Brits had, which was also more about politics, specifically independence and anti-absolutism.
In fact it was a collection of independent states - some Catholic, some Protestant, with varying degrees of religious tolerance. The Thirty Years War was fought over an attempt to impose one religion - Catholicism - on all states within the empire.
They failed. For the next 250 years the states within the empire were able to choose independently how they dealt with religion.
