Why are people skipping the first post? I am just copying you.
Sex Industry and Recruitment.
Thu, 2009-10-08 01:18
#1
Sex Industry and Recruitment.
Thu, 2009-10-08 01:19
#2
High school students can't be doctors or nurses and probably can't be licensed electricians etc. Nevertheless, schools and professional organizations participate in job fairs at high schools so students can find out about a wide range of opportunities. The hospitality industry also takes part. Why not the sex industry?
Sex work can be a very lucrative field and the individual's capabilities affect their earning potential. If it is a profession like any other students should know that a high-school diploma and even a college or university degree will provide higher earning potential. Like being in being an actor, attractiveness counts but it isn't everything. If a person is not particularly attractive they may still carve out a speciality for themselves. If they want to work independently they should have business skills too.
So, if prostitution were fully legalized and regulated and it is no different than nursing or teaching or becoming a plumber why shouldn't the business have the same rights as other professions to self-promote and recruit? Wouldn't discrimination be illegal?
If it were legal the industry would have to gear up for the increased demand so wouldn't they need to recruit? Wouldn't they have to present the industry as an attractive and lucrative opportunity for young women (and men) as they reached 18?
Thu, 2009-10-08 09:11
#3
No. For the same reason that the currently legal sex industry (e.g. porn, erotic dancing, etc.) doesn't recruit in high schools - because you're not allowed to work in the sex industry until you're 18, and it would not be appropriate to recruit among high school students, the vast majority of whom are under 18.
I'd have no problem with them recruiting on university and college campuses, however, since everyone is adult, but just as the currently legal sex industry tends not to, I highly doubt that if prostitution becomes legal that recruiters will be setting up info tables at university job fairs.
Thu, 2009-10-08 09:34
#4
Snert
I think we're a long, long ways away from where one could just set up a table and hand out some pamphlets without being picketed, protested and prayed for.
Thu, 2009-10-08 09:53
#5
Michelle - there are university students who are 17 and even 16 in some cases.
Thu, 2009-10-08 10:46
#6
Also, cultural hypersexualization and the increasingly vague definition of "sex work" have created a number of intermediary venues and activities that facilitate promoting prostitution to youths (erotic modeling, pole dancing, breast augmentation, "ho" and "pimp" costume parties, phone sex, allegedly non-sexual escort services, etc.). Do we really want to rely on the industry's self-monitoring? Or is men's privilege to buy sex itself the problem and to be challenged, along with a sexist culture that tries to entice young women for legitimacy and turnover?
Thu, 2009-10-08 11:46
#7
susan davis
in my opinion the only way to prevent recruitment of youth into our industry is to educate youth on recognizing when they are being recruited and to give them tools to defend themselves. PACE society developed a great tool for educating youth on prevention including an interactive film and jesica yee, first nations youth advocate also has a great tool for educating youth on healthy sexuality and ways to prevent being recruited.
i personally would never support recruiting at job fairs, univeserities etc.it is an issue that comes up often and is definitely important. just as bartending schools are not part of high school job fairs...neither should we be.
sex industry host conferences of their own, for instance taboo sex show in vancouver where sex industry businesses showcase products and services. 10,000 eople came last year and it grows every year. we do not need to invade mainstream conferences in order to recruit ADULT sex workers.
i believe once again this concern supports our call for an inclusive governance process. we could work to ensure these concerns are adressed and that mainstream societies ideals in theis regard are respected.
i am never in support of exposing children to sex industry or exploitation of any person. our occupational health and safety training for sex industry workes is done and being edited as we speak. funded by local health autorities. it is more like warning people about risks....an example- short excerpt from Trade Secrets-
If you are in a situation where you are being pimped in a way that is abusive, controlling or otherwise harming and want to leave your "man" or pimp family it can be difficult and dangerous.
You may have to return to work where you will be easily found, harassed or recaptured.
Pimps have been known to do all kinds of things to workers when the try to leave such as;
- Physical beatings
- Cutting or scaring a workers face
- Cutting a workers hair
- Holding them prisoner and bringing clients in for forced service
- Outing worker to family and friends
- Stealing workers clothes and possessions
- Waiting until worker has made money and robbing the worker
- "Stripping"- capturing a worker and removing all their clothes and leaving the somewhere public to be humiliated.
You may be tempted to "choose" another pimp or pimp family when you need to leave an abusive situation. Chances are a new pimp will not help your situation and as a former rival you may be treated even worse as retribution. Also, if you "choose" too many times you will become known as "choosy" or a "choosy susie".
Remember, you are a human being with rights. If you try to leave and your pimp or pimp family will not let you go, call the police. Abuse is illegal no matter who you are and forcible confinement is a very serious crime. The police will be able to file restraining orders and ensure criminal repercussions for anyone who harms you. You may experience some discrimination from police, especially in more remote areas where police services are un familiar with issues affecting sex workers safety. Keep your head up and don't let them brush you off.
Street Code dictates that any involvement of police or outside authorities by an underground community member is "ratting" or being a "rat".
Our code of honour is a result of criminalization and is important if we are to protect ourselves from enforcement action. In the case of abusive pimps or people who traffic in human beings, we here by state an exception to the "do not rat" rule.
People who operate unethical sex industry businesses and pimps who make a living abusing and exploiting workers harm our entire industry. Any person who has been exploited or abused in this manner may and should involve law enforcement or outside authorities in order to protect themselves and the public image of our industry. Only when we have successfully removed all people who harm us will we be a truly stable industry.
If you are nervous about accessing police services, contact a sex worker support agency or social services worker and ask them to accompany you to file your report. Or ask a family member or friend you trust.
Thu, 2009-10-08 11:50
#8
susan davis
see....more like a warning... i mean if you were thinking of entering sex work and read that....would you continue? we want people to have tools to make safe decisions and to be duely warned about present working conditions.
Thu, 2009-10-08 12:34
#9
No. For the same reason that the currently legal sex industry (e.g. porn, erotic dancing, etc.) doesn't recruit in high schools - because you're not allowed to work in the sex industry until you're 18, and it would not be appropriate to recruit among high school students, the vast majority of whom are under 18.
Doctors also have to be over 18 but that doesn't stop the medical profession from recruiting in high schools. Why would it be inappropriate? I agree there would be a huge outcry so it is highly unlikely it would happen in the next 50 years or so but why shouldn't they?
Is there much of a porn industry in Canada? I understand that erotic dancing doesn't currently appear to recruit openly but why not given that it's legal? In fact weren't there recent stories about clubs getting permits to import women based on shortage of workers? What efforts were made to promote these jobs to Canadian women?
Let's assume recruitment in Canada stays low-key even if prostitution becomes legal. Do you believe that there would be sufficient numbers of Canadian women to satisfy local demand?
Thu, 2009-10-08 12:45
#10
I have no idea. Why don't you ask a porn producer why they don't recruit in high schools? They'd be more likely to have the answer than we would.
Or, read Susan's post, she outlined why she doesn't believe the industry needs to recruit in schools.
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:34
#11
Snert
This seems a bit of a disingenuous red herring.
When I was in high school, nobody came to try to recruit me to be a loan collector, or a bartender, or security guard, or any of hundreds of legitimate and legal jobs. For starters, who'd be doing the recruiting? And which particular field of study would they align with? Banks and investment companies come to universities to recruit from among the new B.Comm grads, for example, and engineering firms from the new B.Eng grads. Assuming there were even specific organizations large enough to have the resources to recruit for, say, dancers, which grads would they expecting to recruit?
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:40
#12
susan davis
exotic dancers being brought in with permits was known as stripper gate and is a few years ago now.we are meeting demand, in vancouver workers are migrating here due to promises of big money made by anti trafficking campaigns and as a result of olympic construction boom being over, we are all sharing a local clientel base and ...well...starving.
in contrast, up in prince rupert there are no sex workers...i asked a drunk guy in a wheel chair, police,cab drivers....no sex workers. they were driven out by moral and religious zeal...now we see more and more violence along the highway of tears....should we not support clear and obvious choies for men seeking sex to prevent them taking it by force? adult consentual sex workers would, imho...ease tensions caused by 14,000 truck drivers coming and going from the super port everyday and diminsh violence against women along the highway. at the very least, sex workers would have some sense of who predators may be based on behaviour in the brothel, a place to start looking.
if you look in local papers or online under adult gigs on craigs list you will see adult film, massage parlours,escort serices and exotic showlounges do recruit openly but only in places deemed adult spaces and only recruiting adults. so still no school recruiting or mainstream job fair or conference recruiting necessary.
sorry but once again, you show a complete lack of knowledge about our industry and ways we do business but claim to have a valid opinion as far as ways to diminish violence towards sex workers and protect us.
try to understand what it would be like if sex workers were i charge of negaotiations for ...auto workers, or public service employees...how would auto workers feel? secure in sex workers understanding their needs?not likely as we have no understnading of being an auto employee....so why should sex workers feel secure in the knowledge only former workers whose experiences are for the most part abusive and people with no understanding of our jobs, industry, customers, lives will be dictating our future stability?
we don't and we will not sit by quietly and allow the same mistakes of the past to be repeated. it is time to listen to us, workers,not former workers,not religious people, not feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape. not men who fear and hate our industry. it's been 100 years of abolition in canada and it is killing us. assumptions being made about how we feel such as- no one would willingly do sex work- all sex workers would exit if they could....not true
as i have stated before, we need rights not rescue. empower women to leave dangerous situations, decriminalize us so police don't treat us like criminals when we try to access support. educate social services workers so they don't say things like"you're pretty, you don't need welfare- become a stripper"-true story.
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:44
#13
not feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape
I just want to highlight this. Beyond that, I will get back to work and say nothing.
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:47
#14
Schools Boards would say no - END OF RED HERRING STORY.
And they have a right to say no as they are the elected bodies who represent their local communities and public education. So please move on and off this possibility.
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:50
#15
susan davis
also, i , as any worker, am not happy about foreign illegal workers coming and takaing jobs from canadian workers...for less wages and performing unsafe sex acts as a result of no education on it.it is undermining canadian sex workers ability to practice safe sex and set our rates as we see fit.
barback blowjobs,bare back fullservice, kissing did not exist when i entered the industry but now....look on craigslist...you will see what i mean. lack of rules and standards for our industry is makng it more and more risky. in new zealand condom use is law...i support that...but in USA some sex workers are fighting for the right to choose to have fluid/unproteted contact...i'm can't understnad why but it is certainly a heavily debated topic, especially between newer workers and old skool...like me.
we need a mecanism to debate issues facing us and to implement outcomes of such discussions. also we need penalties for those who choose to ignore what we all agree on collectively. trade marking based on acceptance of terms,rules,labour standards is how we feel we will best be able to hold people accountable...as per our labour on the margins report detailed in sex industry association thread.
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:54
#16
susan davis
i want to clarify, i am a feminist. i previously refered to feminists who consider all sex outside of marriage rape and i do realize they are a small faction but they seem to be pretty loud none the less.... a la "REAL" women.....i am a real woman...last time i checked....yup, still a woman. how offensive is a group claiming to be more real....
Thu, 2009-10-08 13:54
#17
i want to clarify, i am a feminist. i previously refered to feminists who consider all sex outside of marriage rape and i do realize they are a small faction but they seem to be pretty loud none the less....
name one.
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:03
#18
in my opinion the only way to prevent recruitment of youth into our industry is to educate youth on recognizing when they are being recruited and to give them tools to defend themselves. PACE society developed a great tool for educating youth on prevention including an interactive film and jesica yee, first nations youth advocate also has a great tool for educating youth on healthy sexuality and ways to prevent being recruited.i personally would never support recruiting at job fairs, univeserities etc.it is an issue that comes up often and is definitely important. just as bartending schools are not part of high school job fairs...neither should we be.
Bartending is part of the hospitality industry so is on the list of job opportunities when the industry is promoting itself at job fairs just like chef, housekeeper, receptionists and food/beverage servers etc. Trained bartenders can make excellent money and there are schools right across Canada that teach it. High school job fairs aren't recruiting kids for jobs they are intended to inform kids on job opportunities for AFTER they graduate.
It's an age-sensitive job like modeling or ballet-dancing and while older women can work I feel it is safe to say that women under 30, or even under 25, are in high demand. What is the usual starting age for strippers? (not average age, starting age). For most careers, aside from age related jobs like atheletes, earning potential rises the older one gets. I am sure at the high-end mature women are valued but is that an option for the majority of prostitutes? I think in general the prostitution marketplace places a higher premium on youth. Being generous I'd guess the longevity of a career in prostitution runs from about 18 to 40 with peak earning potential between 18 and 35. Is that a reasonable assessment?
The industry will want women to start between the ages of 18 and 21 because career span is limited and because youth is at a premium.
My premise is this:
1) There will be a significant increase in the demand for workers through:
- increased local demand
- increased demand from current tourists
- increased demand from tourists coming to Canada specifically for sexual servicing
2) Most employers will prefer to hire younger workers rather than workers approaching the end of their career potential.
3) Young women will have to be actively recruited for the industry to fulfil it's potential.
Are we generally in consensus on these three points?
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:09
#19
There is already demand for legal sex trade workers now. They haven't started recruiting our 9 year-olds yet. (Well, unless you consider society in general recruiting girls and women for sexual servitude through the hypersexualization of childhood. But I digress.)
I doubt that if prostitution becomes legal, we're going to have pimps staffing job fair tables.
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:11
#20
...should we not support clear and obvious choies for men seeking sex to prevent them taking it by force? adult consentual sex workers would, imho...ease tensions caused by 14,000 truck drivers coming and going from the super port everyday and diminsh violence against women along the highway. at the very least, sex workers would have some sense of who predators may be based on behaviour in the brothel, a place to start looking.
I fully agree with your right to do what you want with your body. However, these are truly offensive statements. It is a man's responsibility to learn to control himself and think with his real brain. If an asshole cannot control his violent rages, then that is 100% his fault and he should be locked away from society until he can prove he can. It is not the fault of a lack of available sex workers. If prostitution was 100% legalized, but there were no women were willing to perform this service willingly - the lack of sex workers would not be the cause of male violence.
Men are not entitled to sexual gratification with other women and if they behave violently they cannot blame it on the lack thereof. Nor should we fall for such patriarchal claptrap about keeping men happy to keep the peace. The missing women have absolutely nothing to do with the lack of available sexual servicing in the areas they went missing. Any man that thinks that is a justification should rot in jail until his last days.
not feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape.
I have never heard of anyone - feminist or not - who believes all sex outside of marriage is rape.
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:23
#21
susan davis
in my opinion the only way to prevent recruitment of youth into our industry is to educate youth on recognizing when they are being recruited and to give them tools to defend themselves. PACE society developed a great tool for educating youth on prevention including an interactive film and jesica yee, first nations youth advocate also has a great tool for educating youth on healthy sexuality and ways to prevent being recruited.i personally would never support recruiting at job fairs, univeserities etc.it is an issue that comes up often and is definitely important. just as bartending schools are not part of high school job fairs...neither should we be.
Bartending is part of the hospitality industry so is on the list of job opportunities when the industry is promoting itself at job fairs just like chef, housekeeper, receptionists and food/beverage servers etc. Trained bartenders can make excellent money and there are schools right across Canada that teach it. High school job fairs aren't recruiting kids for jobs they are intended to inform kids on job opportunities for AFTER they graduate.
It's an age-sensitive job like modeling or ballet-dancing and while older women can work I feel it is safe to say that women under 30, or even under 25, are in high demand. What is the usual starting age for strippers? (not average age, starting age). For most careers, aside from age related jobs like atheletes, earning potential rises the older one gets. I am sure at the high-end mature women are valued but is that an option for the majority of prostitutes? I think in general the prostitution marketplace places a higher premium on youth. Being generous I'd guess the longevity of a career in prostitution runs from about 18 to 40 with peak earning potential between 18 and 35. Is that a reasonable assessment?
The industry will want women to start between the ages of 18 and 21 because career span is limited and because youth is at a premium.
My premise is this:
1) There will be a significant increase in the demand for workers through:
- increased local demand
- increased demand from current tourists
- increased demand from tourists coming to Canada specifically for sexual servicing
2) Most employers will prefer to hire younger workers rather than workers approaching the end of their career potential.
3) Young women will have to be actively recruited for the industry to fulfil it's potential.
Are we generally in consensus on these three points?
no, i am 41 and making more now than at any point in my career and know many workers not between 18 and 21....average age of sex workers in australia?32 years old.
i believe as baby boomers get older,largest popultion group, we grow old with them. men don't want o be with their daughter or grand daughter...excluding some deviants.
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:29
#22
susan davis
no increase in demand occured in australia or new zealand....
i hope people continue to come to get legal sexual services as they always have from the US where it is completely criminalized. it's not like it just sprung up over night.....
also, younger(inexperienced- as some people enter sex worker later in life due to poverty andongst women) workers need work spaces with others to learn about and work safely in the sex industry. more expeirenced workers do not need such support and can rely on their own experiences and work independently. as many of us do...me included.
businesses do activly recruit as i stated before. look in the paper or online....or at least read what i wrote....
our "career span" as you put it is alot longer than you think. i will work until i retire at 60....19 years from now.23 years so far...42 year career.
Thu, 2009-10-08 14:32
#23
susan davis
please use terms as defned by workers them selves.
stripper= wrong= exotic dancer=good
porn=bad=adult film=good
prostitute=bad=sex worker= good
hooker, crack whore, street walker =bad......sex worker
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:10
#24
susan davis
Ghislane, i never ment to offend or imply men have a right to sex or women's bodies. i apologize and don't want to come off assomeone who agrees with any type of entitlement.,sorry and i agree whom ever is responsible on the highway should rot...or be given over to families of the victims for punishment...
i get calls from angry women and women come up to me on the street and say sex is only for the marriage bed and all sex work and sex outside of marriage or not for purposes of procreation is rape. perhaps people don't say it to you but because of my public status ad from being quite well known in vancouver all kinds of people just walk up to mestart talking about, trafficking, sex outside of marriage, sex work, decrim .....and even men, sometimes mentally ill approaching me with all kinds of anger and opinions on sex work.
name one...these people don't exactly introduce themselves....yes i am a target because of fighting for my rights. what civil rights movement hasn't been targeted? one of 2 women in argentina who orgaized unions there was assasinated...it could very well heppen to me. my mother cries on the phone and tells me to be careful. she is afraid of my job but more afraid of people opposed to sex workers....in her words...a random crazy
neddless to say, i cannot name a person....
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:10
#25
exotic dancers being brought in with permits was known as stripper gate and is a few years ago now.we are meeting demand, in vancouver workers are migrating here due to promises of big money made by anti trafficking campaigns and as a result of olympic construction boom being over, we are all sharing a local clientel base and ...well...starving....
if you look in local papers or online under adult gigs on craigs list you will see adult film, massage parlours,escort serices and exotic showlounges do recruit openly but only in places deemed adult spaces and only recruiting adults. so still no school recruiting or mainstream job fair or conference recruiting necessary.
I think if prostitution were legal the demand would rise therefore recruiting would also have to rise. If these really are good jobs then I think if it becomes legal we should demand that young Canadian women be informed of the opportunites not cower in fear. I would favor a charter challenge demanding the same rights as other legal industries.
Given that the Olympics hasn't begun yet I am kind of puzzled why workers would be flocking there now, and how that would be affected by legalization. If you are all, well, starving, due to lack of demand are prices being driven down?
sorry but once again, you show a complete lack of knowledge about our industry and ways we do business but claim to have a valid opinion as far as ways to diminish violence towards sex workers and protect us.
I understand that you feel strongly on this issue, have a vested interest, and are an activist therefore knowledgable about all aspects of the industry. That doesn't mean every word you say is the gospel truth and that your opinions can't be respectfully challenged. You do not have the right to silence me based on who I am rather than what I am saying. If my arguments are so stupid and uninformed they should be really easy to shoot down so take aim at them not me.
You have suggested that women from organizations that support victims of rape don't have a valid voice, that ex-prostitutes don't have a valid voice and that women like myself who aren't working in the industry don't have a valid voice.
I have every right to explore this topic, question the wisdom of legalizing prostitution, and present my views as long as I do so respectfully.
try to understand what it would be like if sex workers were i charge of negaotiations for ...auto workers, or public service employees...how would auto workers feel?
First of all what you are proposing is currently illegal so this isn't about contract negotiations. Secondly the public does express views on contracts with bus drivers and rules for taxi-drivers and on the laws concerning many professions.
it is time to listen to us, workers,not former workers,not religious people, not feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape. not men who fear and hate our industry.
Whoa Nelly. Women in the industry get a voice but they don't get to silence everyone else's voice.
we don't and we will not sit by quietly
You are the one trying to silence my voice not the other way around. If you have decided I don't have a right to an opinion unless it's yours then why even bother talking to me or anyone else here?
as i have stated before, we need rights not rescue. empower women to leave dangerous situations, decriminalize us so police don't treat us like criminals when we try to access support. educate social services workers so they don't say things like"you're pretty, you don't need welfare- become a stripper"-true story.
Could we please stay on topic. I noticed in other threads that there are so many different claims and arguments concerning the full legalization of prostutition that it was difficult to follow along and sort out which argument was addressing which aspect. I began this thread to discuss the increased demand for prostitutes and the ramifications of that if it were fully decriminalized. I would appreciate it if you could stay on topic so we don't end drifting all over the place.
It's not my business to start such a thread but I noticed some discussion about how the industry should be regulated if it succeeds in becoming fully decriminalized. Maybe you could start a thread on that aspect so the ideas could be collected and you wouldn't have to deal with any debates over whether or not it should be legal only what regulations should exist.
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:18
#26
Susan Davis: ...feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape...
Wow!... Can you provide a quote to support that rather incredible antifeminist smear?
Babble policy is quite clear about such statements.
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:23
#27
susan davis
sorry, it always seems to come back to it.....but i have discussed my opinion on recruitment. we don't support recruitment of youth. even workers on street call police when a youth is spotted. as a result they are really hidden...even from us. as i stated no one supports recruitment or exploitation of youth amongst group i represent.
recruitment is on the other hand part of a greater discussion and needs to be regulated as to what is acceptable to canadians so it is all related in some ways.....just sayin.
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:24
#28
susan davis
PROSTITUTION IS LEGAL INFO SATURATED.....read the criminal code fer christs sakes....
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:25
#29
also, i , as any worker, am not happy about foreign illegal workers coming and takaing jobs from canadian workers...for less wages and performing unsafe sex acts as a result of no education on it.it is undermining canadian sex workers ability to practice safe sex and set our rates as we see fit.
So, it is your contention that legalization has helped countries keep out illega workers? What would be the difference if they were coming in legally as opposed to illegally? (workers in other industries are complaining of downward pressure on wages due to immigration)
barback blowjobs,bare back fullservice, kissing did not exist when i entered the industry but now....look on craigslist...you will see what i mean. lack of rules and standards for our industry is makng it more and more risky. in new zealand condom use is law...i support that...but in USA some sex workers are fighting for the right to choose to have fluid/unproteted contact...i'm can't understnad why but it is certainly a heavily debated topic, especially between newer workers and old skool...like me.
I think that would make an excellent separate thread too. How about, "Legalization, impact on working conditions". I know it may seem like too many threads on one topic but I think it's an extremely important and complex one. The quote above could start it off.
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:30
#30
There is already demand for legal sex trade workers now. They haven't started recruiting our 9 year-olds yet. (Well, unless you consider society in general recruiting girls and women for sexual servitude through the hypersexualization of childhood. But I digress.)
I doubt that if prostitution becomes legal, we're going to have pimps staffing job fair tables.
Me too, but I wish we could remain especially polite when discussing this topic. It's such a hot one that it could easily escalate and they we wouldn't be able to discuss it at all. I think it's a shame that so many topics of interest to the progressive community get shut down here. We need a place where we can discuss these things.
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:34
#31
susan davis
i am allowed to make my arguements as loud as i want to and DO represent more than myself. i bother as you put it because to not bother would mean only one side of the story would be here. i bother because my friends are dead. i bother because it is critical people understnad the truths of our situation clearly and not just based on rape crisis line data. i have said over and over. i repsect experiences of all workers.why keep saying i don't? can i send you a fax or something so you remember? I RESPECT ALL WORKERS EXPERIENCES, and as i stated before all input will be necessary if we are to design a safe and stabile future.
many people here have been very helpful and supportive, another reason i choose to come back. but mostly i come back to prevent abolitionist rhetoric from being the only perspective availible on babble.
martin, i expliained myself and why i stated what i did.....i am allowed my experiences and clarified by stating what i meant
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:34
#32
This seems a bit of a disingenuous red herring.
Ya think?
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:43
#33
susan davis
i never said NO VOICE...i just said we will not let them be the only voice....we are great in number and deserve the consideration be given to our opinions as anyone elses. until recently, NO active sex workers were included in conversations arond this. i am merely stating it will NOT be like that this time, we will be heard.
i just want to say on a lighter note how funny it is to meet with a client...in this case a man wanting domination and for me to use my strap on toys...then come back to these discussions.....
like when i met the governor general....i had no money and finally i caught a call. 2 young men up all night partying. when we were done i made them drive me to city hall! so straight from adult action to....wonderful to meet you your excellency.
what a strange life i lead....
Thu, 2009-10-08 15:48
#34
susan davis
in new zealand, no one intending to open a sex industry business is granted imigrant status. so yes, i believe decrim will have some impact on that situation...as above-illegal sex workers(trafficking victims or migrant) providing unsafe services for a reduced rate.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:02
#35
no, i am 41 and making more now than at any point in my career and know many workers not between 18 and 21....average age of sex workers in australia?32 years old.i believe as baby boomers get older,largest popultion group, we grow old with them. men don't want o be with their daughter or grand daughter...excluding some deviants.
Would you say the majority of sex workers make more money as they age?
When you were younger did older men reject you based on your age? How much older? A lot of men marry much younger women and certainly appear quite willing to have sex with them if they don't have to marry them so I am not quite comfortable calling it sexual deviance.
I am not convinced that 32 is the average age without seeing where the data comes from and how it was collected but I grant you that it is difficult to find it. So, for the sake of argument, let's say it is true. That still isn't the age at which they became prostitutes which is what I am referring to and I don't think it is the age recruiters will want to target. While I don't have evidence at my fingertips I have seen many articles about recruiters targeting young women and none about recruiters looking for women over 30 which isn't to say they aren't. I just don't think they are the majority.
I don't think it's realistic to suggest that employers prefer to hire women over 30 therefore recruiters will aim for that demographic.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:09
#36
sorry, it always seems to come back to it.....but i have discussed my opinion on recruitment. we don't support recruitment of youth. even workers on street call police when a youth is spotted. as a result they are really hidden...even from us. as i stated no one supports recruitment or exploitation of youth amongst group i represent.
recruitment is on the other hand part of a greater discussion and needs to be regulated as to what is acceptable to canadians so it is all related in some ways.....just sayin.
Well of course not. I don't support women working as prostitutes under 18 and I am not in any way shape or from suggesting that you do either.
If it is not wrong for women to begin work at 18 why is it wrong to tell them about the opportunities before their birthday?
I am asking anyone here who personally objects to the promotion of sex work as a vocation yet also believes it should be fully legalized what the justification is for not telling young women about the opportunities and requirements?
It seems contradictory to me.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:15
#37
PROSTITUTION IS LEGAL INFO SATURATED.....read the criminal code fer christs sakes....
Here we go again. Michelle also said "legalization" why aren't you yelling at her?
I don't want to play semantics. I am not going to say "legalization of pimping and brothels etc." rather than legalization of prostitution. I know that technically prostitution is legal and talking about it or doing it indoors or doing it outdoors isn't so could we please cut the crap.
Mods, time to step in please.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:23
#38
i never said NO VOICE...i just said we will not let them be the only voice.
No one here is trying to make "them" the only voice and if it has nothing to do with how the increased demand for prostitutes and how it will be filled then it is off topic.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:35
#39
Susan, let me simply say that you and your cause have my full support. As workers, we are able to recognize each other a mile away - our common needs, our exploitation, our struggle for health and safety at work... Only you face the additional demonization of "immorality" and ostracism. Please know that we will always be your allies.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:41
#40
in new zealand, no one intending to open a sex industry business is granted imigrant status. so yes, i believe decrim will have some impact on that situation...as above-illegal sex workers(trafficking victims or migrant) providing unsafe services for a reduced rate.
I am not sure how that is supposed to help. I can't imagine people intending to traffic women for prostitution would say so on their their application for immigration.
What is the justification for disallowing above-board investment in the sex-industry by immigrants? Isn't the fact of being registered what is supposed to protect workers? If immigrants are allowed to become prostitutes shouldn't they also have the right to run a business rather than just being the service worker?
I would be strongly against any law or regulation that created such a situation. Even though I am against the legalization (I refuse to play semantics) if it were permitted I would march for the right of immigrants to own and operate sex-industry businesses not just work for them. That has both feminist and racist implications.
I am trying to think of any other industry that immigrants are forbidden from opening businesses in.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:45
#41
Susan, let me simply say that you and your cause have my full support. As workers, we are able to recognize each other a mile away - our common needs, our exploitation, our struggle for health and safety at work... Only you face the additional demonization of "immorality" and ostracism. Please know that we will always be your allies.
Unionist, please stay on topic. There are many general threads on this issue and you can also PM to express your support.
Mods, will someone please post a request for people to remain civil and stay on topic? Is this an unreasonable request on my part?
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:50
#42
susan davis
michelle was refering to a specific model known as legalisation, not to prostitution as being illegal as you did.
what did i say that needs to be moderated? i wasn't yelling, it's an on line forum.... i printed large so you might see it is all.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:52
#43
Infosaturated, it's really not up to you to moderate these threads, or to supervise the moderators and tell us when it's time to step in. I think you're doing your share of nitpicking in this discussion, and I don't think susan davis has gone off-topic - the things she is writing about relates to the issues brought up in this thread, and she has been addressing the issues seriously. Please stop policing other babblers about what is on and off topic. That is best left to the moderators.
Also, please stop accusing susan davis of trying to silence you or your voice. The volume of your posts in these threads is a clear indication that no one is silencing you. There is nothing wrong with someone from an affected group saying that they feel their inside knowledge of the industry carries more weight.
susan davis, I realize it's frustrating dealing with the same arguments over and over, but try not to lose your cool.
As for the language we use to describe sex work and those who engage in it - thanks for the timely reminder, Susan. I believe I did use some of the more oppressive terms and I apologize for that. I'll try to be more conscious of the language I use in future.
Thu, 2009-10-08 16:53
#44
Snert
I am asking anyone here who personally objects to the promotion of sex work as a vocation yet also believes it should be fully legalized what the justification is for not telling young women about the opportunities and requirements?
It seems contradictory to me.
Does it? Because I can think of a million things that I wouldn't really want to see promoted, but at the same time don't care to see criminalized or unduly restricted. I don't want someone going to high schools to promote getting huge facial tattoos. I don't want someone going to high schools to suggest a career as a repo man. I don't want anyone going to high schools to suggest religious fundamentalism as a spiritual choice. I don't want anyone going to high schools to recruit for the Black Bloc. And so on.
Why do I get the feeling that you're being as persistent as you are with this in the hope of backing someone into a corner? Do you feel that if we wouldn't all coax our children and grandchildren to become sex workers then we should (or must) support a crack down on sex work, or else there's some big inconsistency?? Because there really isn't.
Thu, 2009-10-08 18:31
#45
please use terms as defned by workers them selves.
stripper= wrong= exotic dancer=good
porn=bad=adult film=good
prostitute=bad=sex worker= good
hooker, crack whore, street walker =bad......sex worker
Does "sex worker" apply only to "prostitutes"? I was under the impression "sex worker" was a more umbrella term.
Thu, 2009-10-08 19:50
#46
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
I guess Infosaturated has graduated to the ranks of the mollycoddled insider, high on the list of "babble kewl kidz"....
Thu, 2009-10-08 19:51
#47
remind
At this point, I would like to register my strong disapproval at this comment of yours susan. Never in my life, have I ever met a feminist who has believed such a thing, nor have I read any feminist discourse that even alluded to such thing, let alone state it.
In order for that comment to stand, IMV you must provide a body of evidence to support it, or retract it. As it is stands your allegations are a smear of feminists. Say nothing of feminists diversified thinking about this.
feminists believing all sex outside of marriage to be rape
Thu, 2009-10-08 19:53
#48
remind
Now now LTJ!
Thu, 2009-10-08 20:03
#49
Snert: Why do I get the feeling that you're being as persistent as you are with this in the hope of backing someone into a corner? Do you feel that if we wouldn't all coax our children and grandchildren to become sex workers then we should (or must) support a crack down on sex work...
Gee, I don't know, you tell us... Maybe because straw men, innuendos and trials of intent are A-OK in your book?
Thu, 2009-10-08 20:15
#50
What a pleasant dialogue.
Thu, 2009-10-08 20:16
#51
Infosaturated, it's really not up to you to moderate these threads, or to supervise the moderators and tell us when it's time to step in. I think you're doing your share of nitpicking in this discussion, and I don't think susan davis has gone off-topic - the things she is writing about relates to the issues brought up in this thread, and she has been addressing the issues seriously. Please stop policing other babblers about what is on and off topic. That is best left to the moderators.
It was a request not an order to moderators because I thought it was preferable to tell you I felt disrespected rather than to give in to answering disrespect with disrespect. I would hope that I am allowed to point out statements that are targeted at me rather than my arguments.
I have agreed and have stated straight out that Susan's voice carries extra weight due to her involvement not only on a personal level but also as activist. Her opinion, even if it is a loose guess on numbers, is valuable as are her insights. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't be disagreed with on issues in which there is ample conflicting information or simply insufficient information. Her anecdotes are interesting but they carry the same weight as the many horror story anecdotes. They serve to illuminate a specific aspect of the industry but just as the horror story of one prostitute does not prove an epidemic of abuse neither does a story about a madame and the family atmosphere at her place of business. It's interesting, Susan has every right to share and I and other readers probably enjoy them. But, that Susan is 41 and making more money than ever only proves it is possible not that it is the norm.
I don't think I am nit-picking. How else do you explore a topic other than trying to break it down into components. The topic of who will do the work and how they will be recruited I think is a very important one.
If there is nothing wrong with sex work what the heck is wrong about promoting it to young women? You act like I am suggesting child prostitution or something. I honestly believe that if, as a country, we decide that it is an acceptable profession (for adults) then the industry will acquire rights whether they choose to use them or not. There is also the matter of the rights of young women to be informed about job opportunities before workers are sought outside the country. I am not baiting, I am not nit-picking, I am not being sarcastic. Maybe you think my concerns are stupid but if so they aren't going to sway anyone so what's the harm?
Say instead of discussing this we were discussing the entry of women into the armed forces. Many men and women were against it for sexist reasons. I do not want women in the armed forces because I am a pacifist. I think it is harmful to women. But, I would defend their right to choose it and defend their right to receive recruitment information. It is a separate issue.
Snert, I have no problem with repro men (or women) being promoted as a profession in high schools only I do think it would have to fall under a larger banner. I hate tattoos but I fail to see why it too shouldn't be promoted as a profession under two banners. Cosmotology(sp) because women can and do have "eyeliner" tatooed on. Lip tatooing is becoming more popular as women age because lip color fades. While some tatoo artists aren't especially skilled it is also a possible direction for a skilled artist to take too. Tattooing has been getting more popular and accepted and some are greatly admired for their artistry.
But, I am not here to discuss tattooing or repro people and I really don't get the connection. I am here to discuss the ramifications on employment of allowing brothels etc. to operate legally in Canada. Specifically who would be doing the work, how they would be recruited, and the rights of Canadian women in general not just the rights of the women who are currently in the business.
Concerning the loudness of my voice. There seem to be more supporters of the changes currently being proposed than opponents. Susan has posted overwhelming amounts of information and there is also a wealth of information available from other sources and I am sincerely trying to wade through it all, hence, my desired for separate threads so there is a way to follow a conversation on a specific aspect of the industry. Even if I post a great deal I doubt that all the posts of all the opponents would add up to more than the posts that support the proposals.
I have had to create a word document to put links on with notes to myself what the link is for because I go to get information on say, Sweden, and they have links so I end up on a feminist site, and they have links so I end up on yet another site that seems to have some interesting links on violence towards sex workers and I forget what information I was looking for in the first place and I have 16 windows open and firefox is freezing up. There are several topics on the Sex Industry and while reading threads I found that they drifted all over the place to the extent that no aspect of the industry was ever really explored. I don't get whats offensive about trying to focus on one aspect at a time.