Sex Industry and Recruitment.

Michelle wrote:

Could we please take the meta discussions about babble comportment to rabble reactions?

LTJ, I'm sure you must realize that your post wasn't very constructive.  Infosaturated, please try to follow your own advice and resist responding to such bait.

Yes, I will take your reminder to heart but pretty please can I have a flame thread?

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:

High school students can't be doctors or nurses and probably can't be licensed electricians etc.

I read one woman's story about becoming a high-priced prostitute in the United States. She started out by earning a master's degree in mathematics. True story as far as I know.

If the profession became legal, there are young women who would think of it as a great career goal that only requires them to be pretty so why bother with stupid courses on stuff they will never use in real life? They may have to wait until they are 18 to get a job in the industry but they would know that it exists as a legal occupation.

Aside from all the bad stuff that can happen I am sure that there are skills involved and that those skills have an impact on earning potential not just how one looks. The highest paid ones that I have heard of have a better formal education than I do. I think Susan has a better formal education than I do.  Then there is the other extreme of streetwalkers who presumably have less to offer on many levels. 

Most girls would probably end up somewhere between those two extremes.

Aside from sexual knowledge, I imagine having a graceful posture, knowing how to walk well in heels, being a good listener and knowing how to take cues from other people's behavior etc. We know that massage parlors are sometimes fronts but learning how to actually give a good non-sexual massage might be good too. I think some of these things and other factors I haven't thought of would determine where one would fall on the professional ladder.

Unionist wrote:

I simply said that Susan and her colleagues, besides suffering exploitation like all workers, also are demonized by being portrayed as immoral, and society ostracizes them.

....

This is the "Labour and Consumption" forum (or so I foolishly believed, until I started reading some of the belittling and denigrating material here).

When Wal-Mart workers fight for unionization, or for better wages or working conditions, we don't say: "Oh, screw Wal-Mart, I hate them anyway, so I'm happy if they shut down and everyone who collaborates in their operation."

Unionist, I hope you don't think that anyone here is denigrating, belittling or demonizing women who are prostitutes. I agree with you that there should be zero tolerance for that. 

I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but do you think the main problem people have with it is rooted in the kind of moralism that comes from religions or is based in feminist philosophies that are academic so should not interfere with individual women's choices?

I don't know if I'm just overly sensitive or whatever but take care reading to the end of this particular post. I literally have tears pouring down my cheeks. I don't want to be all dramatic, I could be over-reacting because I have a strong visual imagination, but at the same time just in case there is anyone "overly-emotional" about the issue this is fair warning.

susan davis wrote:

no increase in demand occured in australia or new zealand....

I have really a lot trouble with that statement.  I do know of one link that substanciates your claim:

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy-and-consultation/legislation/prostitut...

Task one identified the need to assess the impact of the Act on the number of persons working as sex workers in New Zealand. This research suggests that there has been little impact on the number of people entering the industry post-decriminalisation.

The above is from a policy paper from the Dept. of Justice in New Zealand website and appears to be endorsed by an illustrious list of people. But, there are accusations that the report is biased. But, tons of thread drift is happening of which I have been drawn into myself so I am going to try really hard not to get let myself drift off topic.

One issue I have is that it doesn't really apply to the Canadian situation. Prostitution was not illegal in New Zealand prior to decriminalization so local men already had access. New Zealand is just off of Australia and it is legal there so no reason for them to go to New Zealand for it and they would snap up more set tourists. Thailand is also in the area.

Given that we would not be going from legal to decriminalization the non-increase of workers doesn't apply. Our close proximity to the United States also makes a difference. It's much easier and cheaper for American tourists to come here. There is a military base in Watertown that is a short drive to Ontario.  So, for both geographic reasons, and because we would be going from virtually illegal to decriminalized, that statistic is meaningless.

I am too tired to continue researching right now and again I have a gazillion tabs open so here is a small note on the "who" is involved. So while this is far from the whole story on the "who" is doing it I find it deeply disturbing...

http://www.iwraw-ap.org/resources/pdf/39_shadow_reports/New_Zealand_SR_C...

The Prostitution Reform Act was supposed to reduce underage prostitution and ‘protect young people’17, by introducing offences such as paying for ‘sexual services’ provided by any person under 18. However, Commissioner for Children Dr Cindy Kiro argues that New Zealand has a ‘clear problem’ of child prostitution, which has most likely worsened since the decriminalisation of prostitution.18 Dr Kiro’s hypothesis is supported by many of the major police groups within New Zealand. Inspector Gary Knowles of the Christchurch police argues that there has been a noticeable rise in the number of underage street prostitutes since the introduction of the new legislation.19 It is reported that girls as young as 12 have been found on the streets, sought mostly by men wanting unprotected sex.20 Police in Wellington have also reported that the age of prostituted women has declined since the Act.21 The 2005 Prostitution Law Review Commission report, estimates that 20% of prostitutes in street prostitution and 8% of escort agency workers were underage, with a low estimated total of 210 such underage persons in the industry.22 ECPAT NZ23 reported in 2004 that ‘most child prostitutes come from backgrounds of sexual abuse, drug-taking, and family dysfunction’.24 Of those who were first prostituted when they were younger than 16 years of age, 60% had been sexually abused, most drank ‘lots’ of alcohol when sexually servicing men, and all used drugs.25 Amongst underage Maori prostitutes, 74% had been sexually abused.26 In an address to the United Nations in 2001, the New Zealand government recognised that Indigenous children and children from lower socio-economic groups were particularly vulnerable to becoming involved in prostitution.27

United Futures Party MP Gordon Copeland revealed in March 2006 that only 16 clients of prostitutes under 18 years have been convicted since the introduction of the Act in June 2003/between June 2003 and December 2005.29 Despite the lack of prosecutions, Copeland estimates that the number of men that have purchased underage girls is in the thousands.30 The ‘architect’ of the Prostitution Reform Act, Christchurch MP Tim Barnett, called for a parliamentary investigation into child prostitution in Christchurch in 2004, arguing that it is ‘only right’ for the issue to be investigated. 31 No investigation has since occurred.

A South Auckland Maori community worker estimates that 80% of the women involved in street prostitution are Maori or Polynesian.33 Maori women are most commonly prostituted on the streets as a result of what Auckland community activist Mama Tere refers to as an ‘apartheid system’ within prostitution itself, where Indigenous women are at the ‘bottom of a brutal race and class hierarchy’.34 Subsequently, Maori women are more likely to be employed in ‘high-risk, lower-paid venues’ than Pakeha (non-Indigenous) women.35 Reports also suggest that a disproportionate number of children and young women in underage prostitution are Indigenous. A representative of the Prostitutes Collective outreach program claims that the majority of underage prostitutes are Maori or Pacific Islander.36 This is reflected in statistics which show that 68% of Indigenous prostituted women enter prostitution at 17 years or younger, compared to 25% of Pakeha women.37

Maybe this should be in the racism folder. I feel physically sick reading this. I am willing to bet most of the johns are white. So minority women are being "empowered" to sell their bodies to men. For once, minority women beat out white women and get the jobs first, lucky them,

I do not like the New Zealand model.  I do not believe that Canadian police would be better than New Zealand police in protecting vulnerable women and children.  So far they do not have a great track record. I do not believe the pretty pictures of tidy brothels being run by motherly madames presiding over young women having fun wrapping Christmas presents would be typical of the industry in Canada.