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Entrenched thought processes, indoctrination and brain washing
Sun, 2009-10-18 12:01
#1
remind
Entrenched thought processes, indoctrination and brain washing
Sun, 2009-10-18 12:48
#2
remind
Started this thread as a means to dicuss what is going on with people in respect to the silence, indifference, excusing and ignoring of what is going on politically and socially, in Canada and around the world.
What prompted the notion to discuss this is that I just found out a close relative of mine, who lives in Alberta, just had some tests done which found she has a mass in her stomach, that is quite likely cancer. Also of note, is that 5 other women who live in and about her small northen AB community are also battling cancer. They are surrounded by sour gas heads that do repeated burn offs.
The most startling thing about her words, were not that she may have cancer, but that she believes these other women and herself are martyres for the cause. What cause you ask? The cause of society's development and sustainment.
Her exact words were; "well ...if some of us have to suffer and die, so all people have oil to use and a high standard of living, then that is what has to happen, people in Pittsburg and Detroit have also chosen to suffer their possible fate, for the good of the many".
Needless to say my jaw dropped. I mean...how do you respond to that type of stuff? And how the hell did Pittsburg and Detroit peoples come into her factorings?
It is my view that it is coming from her church doctrine. She and the other women all belong to the same Pentacostal Church that preaches the wonders of capitalism, along side salvation. What bolstered this perception was her noting that it does not really matter, as everyone will be dead in 2012, and that is only 2 years away anyway, so she will be spared the tribulation then, if she is already dead.
If some AB churches have gone this far to excuse the oil company's pollution excesses, there have to be others doing the same across Canada, as they all belong to the Global Pentacostal affiliate organziation.
Of course the media also plays a huge part in corporate capitalist indoctrination too, which serves to re-enforce other brainwashing mechanisms present.
Personally, I have always believed that indoctrination on many levels, is a serious problem that has to be overcome, only now I believe it is much more serious and impending than I previously thought, especially if we have people believng they are martyres for the good of the many.
Sun, 2009-10-18 15:00
#3
remind
FM stated something very pertinent about this right indoctrination of the masses, which I am quoting below. And here I wish we had a better term to embody those whom the elite have brainwashed to such success, for that matter I long for a better word for "the elite", or any other name for those socio-paths who think they have the right to have and control everything, as they are not even close to being an elite at anything other than greed and corruption.
....says that blaming the media is a cop out but then displays attitudes and perceptions that are media driven - that the left is all about dull things while the right is all about fun things. That the left wants to focus on what's wrong while the right wants to party. Erase the media flter by which all information is presented and a different picture emerges: The right is all about social control; about dividing neighbours and communities into privileged haves and unprivileged have-nots; about corporate and investor rights at the expense of labour and human rights; about being "tough on crime" but against justice; about criminalizing dissent and marginalizing democracy; about raising misery up and calling it progress; about sacrificing the next generation on the altar of quarterly profit statements.
It is not "the right", so to speak, in my view, it is those who are easily indoctrinated and which are the critical mass component needed for the "elite" to be able to control society as they wish. This state of being has repeated itself many time throughout history, where a portion of the masses are convinced/indoctrinated into believing any measure taken, that is of a anti-human nature, is okay, as long it is for the good of the many. When indeed, it is only for the good of the "elite".
Take the witch hunts, the pogroms in eastern Europe leading up to the Holocaust, Haldamor, for examples where such indoctrination was successful, and the majority of people were at best apathetic, at most complicit.
How can we overcome this? Or is it just the way things are?
Sun, 2009-10-18 15:47
#4
Good grief, remind. What an awful situation for your relative and the other women with cancer. As I was reading that they are looking at the situation in light of being "martyrs for the cause" what I thought you were going to say was that they were planning to take their situations public and become martyrs for the cause of changing these horrible situations. I'm saddened to hear that these churches are manipulating people into holding a belief like this.
For them, given what they are dealing with on the personal level in terms of their health, perhaps it's the only way that they can be at some peace around what's happened. Most folks who come out of that facet of christianity hold the belief that (pardon quoting the bible) "all things work together for those who love the Lord"...it's a way of letting go of what's outside of one's control.
However, that situation (the pollution,etc) is within the control of their community and they could work to change it for others and for the planet...not easily, but it could be done. I wonder how people can come to some understanding of (pardon another quote) "seek justice, love kindness and walk humbly with your god..." -- it is an entirely different paradigm. I think that some of the American evangelical churches are beginning to work in areas of environmentalism and bringing attention to climate change issues. Perhaps offering them some material from Sojourners (a left-ish evangelical website/magazine) might offer them another view within what they would be open to considering.
Sun, 2009-10-18 16:22
#5
remind
Loretta, I tried to broach it in such a way that she could see that changes should be made, and was told quite clearly, there is no other option available other than death for some, because any changes made to stop the levels of pollution, would put society at large in dire straights and no progress could be made, or society even sustained.
The level of indoctrination is mind boggling. What really twigged me to what it was, was her mentioning Detroit and Pittsburg. I mean those 2 cities never even move into her conscious reality, let alone her knowing enough about either to know that they have high cancer rates, and her believing that she knows enough about them to know that ALL the citizens, of both, have willingly chosen to have high cancer rates for the good of the many, is well beyond rational thought processes.
Sun, 2009-10-18 17:37
#6
I saw Michael Moore's "Capitalism - A love story" yesterday in Montreal (loud applause from the audience at the end). Moore is very good about the way religion has been one of the forces that managed to "sell" us the capitalist system. Very funny montage of old film clips of how people have been hypnotized into drinking the Kool-Aid... But he also shows how even religious figures of authority are now identifying capitalism with evil and the last thing Jesus would support (more funny doctored film clips of Jesus speaking as if he was a Wall Street Journal propagandist).
OK, a MM film won't topple the Vatican or the Stock Exchange, but the words of a Chicago bishop in an occupied factory, encouraging workers to stand up for their rights against the thieves may get your friend thinking again.
Sun, 2009-10-18 18:35
#7
I don't know what you could do to counter that and I agree that the level of indoctrination is mind boggling. My ex mother-in-law (xmil) was very like what you're describing. I was never successful in even engaging her in conversation regarding anything outside of her worldview. My xmil's behaviours and views on things were those of a person caught up in addiction and her religion functioned for her in that way -- everything in her life focussed around her religious views which she espoused constantly. She was also extremely intolerant to others in their faith journey and would not, at any time, have a conversation that wasn't loaded. She must have been in extreme emotional pain but I could not get to where she was...despite trying...it was never enough.
I don't know if your relative is like that but I can understand, from personal experience, how hard it is to see what's going on. It's awful.
Sun, 2009-10-18 19:10
#8
French author La Boétie (1530-1563), a favourite of recently deceased Quebec filmmaker Pierre Falardeau, another cancer victim:
"... I should like merely to understand how it happens that so many men, so many villages, so many cities, so many nations, sometimes suffer under a single tyrant who has no other power than the power they give him; who is able to harm them only to the extent to which they have the willingness to bear with him; who could do them absolutely no injury unless they preferred to put up with him rather than contradict him. Surely a striking situation!"
Sun, 2009-10-18 19:23
#9
Who or where do we make appeals, to convince those that have the power to make changes, that they should alter the course of events, activities and structures that have been put in place? Where the inevitable result consists of increased human suffering and eventual extinction no matter how much the grievous harm is increased or slightly lessened commensurate with the degree of belief in the same system that destroys us, with which religious entity, media propaganda outlet, government office, opposition group, or profit corporation does humanity make its dire representations?
Sun, 2009-10-18 19:36
#10
An excellent thread on a what should be a crucial question to all about the pathologies of people-powerlessness here in Canada. How to reverse what is a terrible tendancy to just go along. Even many who understand and recognize the hidden hands behind the curtains of power, too often find it easier to acquiesce and remain silent. A very wise and politically experienced elder from the Haida Nation always used to say that Canadians are trapped in a "colonial mentality" which was how she apprehended the condition under discussion here. In any case a worthy topic which will hopefully inform, activate and dispel some of the "indoctrination and brain washing" and/or wilful indifference that afflicts us at a time in history when so much progressive awareness, change-making and hands on activism is so urgently required.
Mon, 2009-10-19 06:16
#11
Even many who understand and recognize the hidden hands behind the curtains of power, too often find it easier to acquiesce and remain silent........ wilful indifference that afflicts us at a time in history when so much progressive awareness, change-making and hands on activism is so urgently required.
I've considered for some time the usefullness of activism within entities that have sprung up over time, be they lobby groups or political parties, where peoples ideas and energy are strained through an apparatus whereby the end result of their input becomes somewhat or completely unrecognizable from the original intent, because of the requirement to approach power on its own terms within boundaries and lanes determined by power for those purposes. The dominant structures allow for a certain level of discontent, where outrages borne from its injustice and inhumanity are funneled into groups through which procedural manipulations and niceties distill the sentiments into acceptable gestures that can be more readily dealt from on high through platitudes at best, or complete indifference and derision as is often the case. A few minor allowances here and there, bestowed by hegemony over the course of time serves the same purpose as a video gambling machine programmed to relinquish an occasional win every so often in order to pander to the client who is on the verge of investing their lifes worth into the contraption. In that sense, hands on activism might be approached with the view that they are expecting it, while they point to the area where one must stand alongside others seeking an audience.
Mon, 2009-10-19 14:21
#12
remind
Excellent points slumberjack.
When seeking post secondary education, in order to further one's knowledge, in any field of humanities and social services, one comes face to face with this reality. I would perhaps exclude women's studies, but even then there is distillation to the cultural norm of white patriarchy.
That it goes unnoticed by most of those participating, says much about the level of indoctrination that also goes unrecognized.
But remarkedly, one prof I came across, was actually quite honest about it, and its ramifications on a functioning, or rather non-functioning equitable society, that believed it was. He was teaching cultural geography.
While conversaly, another gave me an A+, on a 15 page paper that stated poverty and inequality has always existed, and always would exist, and thus it was not worth worrying about in the now. I wanted to see just how biased he was in his personal beliefs, and how it over-shadowed the social work course he was teaching. One could say I found out. It scared the crap out of me that such a person was instructing the social work degree programs.
Really, I believe, it is going to take some huge disaster before the majority of people are going to be jarred out of their indoctination, a disaster well beyond any manufactured economic crisis.
Mon, 2009-10-19 15:54
#13
Interesting subject Remind, I am sorry to hear about your relative's illness.
Thank you for your post Slumberjack, I agree. I have felt for sometime that the gap between grass roots activism shifting to a bureacracy has gotten shorter and shorter. It appears to me that once government funding enters the picture then the move has begun towards becoming part of the problem rather than of the solution.
And I agree with you Remind that it will take a disaster to wake people from their sleep.
In my experience most people seem somewhat discontented with their inherited lives yet resigned to accepting that experience as a definition of reality, they spend their lives acting out this of this belief system. They live in the Matrix.
I think health will become a defining issue for us as we age, I think we will see those who trust the system die earlier but only after spending years on expensive medication and I think that those of us who choose alternatives will live longer and without medication.
Mon, 2009-10-19 16:07
#14
remind
How many times have you heard said, or said to your own children; "eat your (insert meal here), there are starving children in the world who are not as lucky as you"? Or variations thereof?
It seems to me this incisious little comment puts forth a far amount of indoctrination regarding privilege.
Mon, 2009-10-19 16:20
#15
remind
Thanks ennir, for your sentiments, and Loretta too, but really am not felling much besides unmitigated astonishment. Plus a bit of resignation, that again being called into the palliative care of loved dying seems likely. And that perhaps is framing my conceptions of being okay with it.
As in the last moments before transition into death occurs, formerly held beliefs, that are not based upon truth, fall away, and deep truths are most always spoken.
Mon, 2009-10-19 19:45
#16
Really, I believe, it is going to take some huge disaster before the majority of people are going to be jarred out of their indoctination, a disaster well beyond any manufactured economic crisis.
Katrina was in full view for all to see, and at election time the deck chairs were rearranged at the behest of the pervasive order, with all of its supporting arms applying a particularly deft choreography of audacity and change to the malaise. And if that wasn't enough, the worst economic disaster in memory saw droves of people lined up for hours at dawn to ensure their place in line at the polls. The magic of mass persuasion at its finest with order and legitimacy renewed yet again to determine its own mandate, which consists of self preservation and power growth at all costs. Once achieved and refreshed, they needn't even be troubled to permit protest at all, certainly not within the remotest of earshot from dissent, as the pummelled and gassed youth of the Pittsburgh G20 summit discovered. In Canada, instead of wholly appropriate outrage coalescing to greet disaster Conservatism at the helm, increased polling numbers are its reward. And just in case, the bland stasis of corporate neo-liberalism awaits on deck as an alternative.
The basis for belief, which requires applying ones head to this unyielding grindstone has escaped me for some time. What I do believe in is the futility of attempting to appeal to, reckon with, or confront the perpetrators and accomplices intent on preserving the causes of perpetual destruction, this crazed apparatus of annihilation whereby setting about at varying speed towards self and planetary immolation is the only way to realize the satisfaction it craves. Instead, utter indifference and contempt are its proper due, because to expect measures of adequate substance from a paradigm of nothingness is to squander valuable energy to the point of being immobilized into apathy, even as the well of delusion runs dry before us.
Indifference is not necessarily synonymous with apathy towards humanity and the disastrous tribulations inflicted upon it. Each individual has or can acquire the ingenuity and capabilities within ones sphere of influence and scale, to superimpose over what exists a completely different reality through whatever means imaginable and possible. Networks of individuals, neighbourhoods, and in time even communities can co-exist and cooperate together for a time within the very spaces set aside by corporate and patriarchal control for its own supporters. In the common processes, where every vote supposedly counts towards the success of one lethargy or another, another measure of success would involve the one by one, block by block, acquaintance by acquaintance spreading of techniques, contacts, idea markets, and zones of safety all within the completely unsafe reality.
Mon, 2009-10-19 19:51
#17
remind
That's pretty pessimistic... ;) Going to ignore how it advocates doing nothing.
And I meant a huge catastrophe, like California falling into the ocean, or the US and European east coast being hit by a huge tidal wave, or perhaps even Yellowstone exploding. Katrina is but a small disaster when thinking about what needs to happen to wake people up.
Mon, 2009-10-19 20:02
#18
That's pretty pessimistic... ;) Going to ignore how it advocates doing nothing.
In framing it that way, you didn't actually ignore it, but instead missed the point entirely.
Mon, 2009-10-19 20:10
#19
remind
Nope
Thu, 2009-10-22 09:21
#20
remind
Thinking about indoctrination and brain washing further, to see what exactly is the biggest one going on, that is part of the mess society is in , is the foisted belief in the rescuing hero.
We are living still in a reality that undervalues wome's input and actions, as nothing that could save the world.
People are indoctrinated into belieiving GOD is a rescuing male, and it starts from there. And it takes very little to re-enforce the false belief that men know and do what is best for humanity
Today, we are blasted with movie after movie, TV show after TV show, telling us it is only men who are heros and it is only they who do the recuing. It used to be the fairy tales in books, now so taken over and pushed by Disney, to further push that nonsensical messaging.
We have everything telling us that men are the only "rescuers", from Spiderman, to James Bond, and all points in between.
This message translates into women's and men's belief structures, to become a notion that only men are "strong leaders", and only their voices account for anything much worthwhile.
It is my view, that this is on of the major factors, why we have such male dominated politics in Canada, and indeed around the world.
If the lead male role is "stong" it does not matter if they are nasty, the voting masses believe they are the rescuers. Even when evidence indicates they are no such thing. They needonly sound like it.
Last night on the news here in BC, in response to protests against gutting mental health programs, Kevin Falcon, actually had the audacity to state in a strong nasty voice, to BCers; "I am not going to allow...." and that was that, the media accepted his not allowing. And so too, will the majority of the public believe he is actually rescuing them and their tax dollars because he stood in the indoctrinated role of the "strong male" , looking out for our best iinterests, that we all so readily accept as truth, when it is a lie.
Until society stops being indoctrinated into believing that only men can be all of that and a bag of chips, we will continue to be in the mess we are in.
Thu, 2009-10-22 09:39
#21
Hear, hear.
I am starting to look for and find when I am in luck - microspaces where women speak with a better-grounded authority.
One is the Ladyfest spoken word event - First Women, First Voices - tomorrow night in Ottawa. I hope to meet some of you there. I'll be the smiling guy with silver sideburns and the red beret...
Thu, 2009-10-22 10:21
#22
Talking about indoctrination is a diifficult thing, esp in places like Canada - one of the primary things that gets indoctrinated is the belief that the indoctrinated person is free!! - and a kneejerk sort of reaction "Me?!? No way!! I'm not indoctrinated!!!" - the process has been almost perfected in western 'democracies' such as Canada (it is in no way a real democracy - but that's not something many people want to consider). I explore the whole situation somewhat in a book I have written - They're Building a Box - and You're In It - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box-intro.html which you may find interesting. Or not. (I mentioned this to a Rabble list when I finished it, and got a lot of that kind of response..)
Thu, 2009-10-22 10:40
#23
remind
I think that is perhaps because you are correct, people do not want to admit to themselves how indoctrinated they are. Either to themselves, or in general.
It is not knee jerk, it is responding to bells, buzzers and beeps, just the way they have been programed to.
Thu, 2009-10-22 10:48
#24
Snert
"Me?!? No way!! I'm not indoctrinated!!!"
Funny, though, that nobody ever, in an argument, steps up and says "Please disregard my opinions; I've been brainwashed".
How is it that it's always [i]everyone else[/i] who's been indoctrinated? And how is it that the person accusing others of being indoctrinated has somehow managed to free their mind from the culture that indoctrinates every except them?
I won't suggest that the messages around us influence us at a population level, but for the most part I think that when "brainwashing" gets thrown about, it's usually just a "shut up" to someone we disagree with (and a non-starter to boot).
Edited to add a great example:
It is not knee jerk, it is responding to bells, buzzers and beeps, just the way [b]they[/b] have been programed to.
They? How about YOU? Which of your opinions should I disregard, on the grounds that it's not really your own? Be specific.
Thu, 2009-10-22 10:53
#25
remind
Thanks for asking snert, I have spent almost a life time now, extricating myself, from the indoctrination, just as others have done.
Just because you have not, does not mean that no one else has.
Thu, 2009-10-22 11:07
#26
"Me?!? No way!! I'm not indoctrinated!!!"
Funny, though, that nobody ever, in an argument, steps up and says "Please disregard my opinions; I've been brainwashed".
How is it that it's always [i]everyone else[/i] who's been indoctrinated? And how is it that the person accusing others of being indoctrinated has somehow managed to free their mind from the culture that indoctrinates every except them?
I won't suggest that the messages around us influence us at a population level, but for the most part I think that when "brainwashing" gets thrown about, it's usually just a "shut up" to someone we disagree with (and a non-starter to boot).
Edited to add a great example:
It is not knee jerk, it is responding to bells, buzzers and beeps, just the way [b]they[/b] have been programed to.
They? How about YOU? Which of your opinions should I disregard, on the grounds that it's not really your own? Be specific.
Recognition (of brainwashing/being brainwashed) is the first step: It is not merely a case of awareness, but having awareness of one's awareness. Not many people study and analyze their own awareness.
Thu, 2009-10-22 11:15
#27
Snert
Hehe. I'm glad to hear that you have access to The Truth now.
Say... I don't suppose you'd be willing to use your clarity and truthseeing to point out for us when others have been brainwashed, would you? That would be excellent.
Thu, 2009-10-22 11:26
#28
remind
Recognition (of brainwashing/being brainwashed) is the first step: It is not merely a case of awareness, but having awareness of one's awareness. Not many people study and analyze their own awareness.
No, not too many people do.
If there were a place the embodies a good number who do, it would be babble. Though of course it runs the spectrum of greater and lesser amounts, awareness of awareness, too.
Thu, 2009-10-22 11:38
#29
Snert
Here's the thing about brainwashing: brainwashed people don't know they're brainwashed. Brainwashed people insist that they're not brainwashed. And that's what makes it one of the most brilliant conversation-killers EVER.
#1: "I hold such and such an opinion"
#2: "you've just been indoctrinated to hold that opinion!"
#1: "uh, no, it's my opinion"
#2: "of course you say that... that's just the indoctrination talking!"
[/end all dialog]
Thu, 2009-10-22 11:59
#30
remind
Here is the thing, brainwashed people can come to know that they are, and start eradicating it within themselves, and where they participate socially.
Once it is indicated people start examining, whether they admit to it or not, is another thing.
Perhaps men do not see it as much within themselves and other men, as women today, can quite easily see the brainwashing to the patriarchial norm that is pushed upon us, as it impacts us directly. And usually negatively. Unlike the positive benefits some men get from it.
However, patriarchy is just as much a control mechanism for men as it is for women. God forbid a majority align together against the centuries old elite hegemony, of pinky and the brains, out to rule the world.
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:05
#31
Here's the thing about brainwashing: brainwashed people don't know they're brainwashed. Brainwashed people insist that they're not brainwashed. And that's what makes it one of the most brilliant conversation-killers EVER.
#1: "I hold such and such an opinion"
#2: "you've just been indoctrinated to hold that opinion!"
#1: "uh, no, it's my opinion"
#2: "of course you say that... that's just the indoctrination talking!"
[/end all dialog]
All of what you said is true, but you're probably a white guy, which means you aren't really entitled to an opinion unless of course it perfectly fits the opinions of your progressive betters, you are evil, and even if you haven't really done anything evil, you are only one step away from it.
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:07
#32
So...should we not have more sympathy for the poor indoctrinated and brainwashed trolls?
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:13
#33
remind
All of what you said is true, but you're probably a white guy, which means you aren't really entitled to an opinion
Ohhhhh, that is so cute, trying to play the victim, while white man's opinions are the only thing we ever hear in the majority.
The rest of your commentary is just as much "poor us we are so hard done by" tripe, as that was above so will not bother addressing it
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:23
#34
Snert
Here is the thing, brainwashed people can come to know that they are, and start eradicating it within themselves, and where they participate socially.
And when they've figured things out they can say "I'm not brainwashed". Just like everyone else says they're not brainwashed.
So then how will we know when someone has really shaken off the bonds of indoctrination, and when they're just deluded into thinking that they have?
May I suggest that the test should be whether they do or don't agree with Remind? Since she's already proven that she thinks for herself, by claiming to think for herself, that should be reliable and impartial, yes?
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:26
#35
remind
Oh snert you are just as cute, as yarg.
It is quite apparent through interpersonal discourse and dialogue, where another exists in the spectrum of awareness of awareness.
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:29
#36
Ok, how about an example. Are those of who support legalization of prostitution brainwashed and indoctrinated?
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:30
#37
May I suggest that the test should be whether they do or don't agree with Remind? Since she's already proven that she thinks for herself
But then, why leave it all to her in the process?
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:34
#38
I think you make a good point regarding women Remind.
As I said before we all have a life that we have inherited, some find no need to question that life, perhaps because the status quo is going their way but some of us do, some of us find ourselves diminished by the status quo and we do question it and we find that there are lies upon lies spun everyday just to keep us in our place.
Thu, 2009-10-22 12:43
#39
remind
Ok, how about an example. Are those of who support legalization of prostitution brainwashed and indoctrinated?
You could take this question back to a thread it belongs in, I have no intention of dragging that debate into this subject thread.
However, we could look at how women have been taught to believe they have to be superwomen, work full time, do all the cooking and housework, and look after the children and all their needs, while their alleged "partner" goes fishing, sledding, off roading, to the bar, etc etc...
Or indeed any of the other indoctrinations that are imposed upon women and girls.
For men we could look at how they are taught they are supposed to be "manly men", the tall studly good looking hero to one and all, and if they don't manage it then they are less in their own eyes too.
Thu, 2009-10-22 13:49
#40
We've ALL been indoctrinated - that's what 'education' is all about these days - and then the media reinforces it, and your 'peers' who accept it all without reservation and don't care much for anyone who questions whatever the central dogma is, and your already-indoctrinated parents and older 'role-models' etc - it's just that some of us, for various reasons, manage to wake up at some point and start to fight it - I was well into my 30s before I started to understand any of this, and I had been an 'outcast' for many years before that (long-haired hippie musicion etc during the 60s in small-town Ontario - a thoroughly indoctrinated mileau). It's a bit like being an alcoholic - denial is always the first step - but you can never get cured until you admit you have a problem. It's not a matter of I am right and you are wrong about any particular issue - we can disagree about all kinds of things - the difference is, the indoctrinated person does not actually think about whatever the issue is, examine all sides and come to their own conclusion, they just believe whatever they have been taught to believe - and in an essentially knee'jerk reaction, mock those who dare disagree with the dogma they have all been taught. The 911 situation is a good example - anyone who has actually examined this situation and thought about it sees clearly the 'official conspiracy theory' is full of holes and obvious lies - the indoctrinated citizen follows the official line as fed them by their media every day.
Thu, 2009-10-22 13:59
#41
Thu, 2009-10-22 16:20
#42
remind
Noam Chomsky remarks, "For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of 'brainwashing under freedom' to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments."[3]Robert Jay Lifton argues[4] that the objective of phrases or slogans like "blood for oil," or "cut and run," is not to continue reflective conversations but to replace them with emotionally appealing phrases. This technique is called the thought-terminating cliché.
From the wiki article caissa linked to...thanks caissa.
Thu, 2009-10-22 23:02
#43
Hehe. I'm glad to hear that you have access to The Truth now.
Say... I don't suppose you'd be willing to use your clarity and truthseeing to point out for us when others have been brainwashed, would you? That would be excellent.
The criteria I use is when people make statements where the contradiction is obvious to others but not to them. Brainwashing/manipulation/conditioning is a conditioned or learned response. We can uncondition and unlearn our and the behaviors of others by first recognizing it, asking thought provoking questions about our thoughts and behaviors and then consciously learning the thoughts, ideas, values and behaviors that we ideally wish to espouse and engage in.
Fri, 2009-10-23 10:29
#44
Snert, you obviously have no idea of what 'indoctrination' is all about - the problem with getting too much 'information' from comic books and Saturday morning cartoons, I suppose, and the resultant shallow, black-and-white 'thinking' that results (in other words, being a card-carrying member of the indoctrinated masses - why would indoctrinators tell the indoctrinated about the process?!?). Modern indoctrination is very, very sophisticated, and is not directed at individuals directly, but at large groups of individuals - the population of Canada, for instance. Within this large group, it is not necessary to micro-manipulate the thoughts or actions of everyone, all you need to do is control a majority - and, with full media control, you ensure that anything contrary to the indoctrination that might tend to make some of the more intelligent question some things is kept off the mainstream airways or newspapers. The indoctrinated majority, not overly intelligent to begin with, are very used to the idea of taking their beliefs from the mainstream media, and the 'experts' allowed thereon or in, and it is easy enough to marginalize or ignore those few who dare to question the accepted dogma. When elections are held, the indoctrinated masses elect puppet politicians, who do as the behind-the-scenes rulers wish, and again, appear to have the 'approval' of some arguable majority - all reinforced by the media, of course. Indoctrination does not go to every aspect of life - as long as you stay in the box, you are 'free' to do all kinds of things, have all kinds of beliefs - but some things are out of bounds. For instance, Snert - how much do you know of the money creation process in our country? This is obviously of very great importance - and yet most people know next to nothing, and evidence no curiosity about their ignorance - and turn away quickly when someone tries to interest them in this process. This is indoctrination at work. Or you are free to argue about which political party you like, and why party X is better than party Y, who are just a gang of corrupt fascists / socialists (take your pick) - but you are not allowed to question the very legitimacy of the party system - that is, again, indoctrination.
Fri, 2009-10-23 10:44
#45
Snert
It's not a matter of I am right and you are wrong about any particular issue - we can disagree about all kinds of things
The 911 situation is a good example - anyone who has actually examined this situation and thought about it sees clearly the 'official conspiracy theory' is full of holes and obvious lies
LOL! A rodeo bullrider has to stay on the back of a bull for at least 8 seconds. You managed to remain consistent with yourself for about 3 seconds.
Snert, you obviously have no idea of what 'indoctrination' is all about - the problem with getting too much 'information' from comic books and Saturday morning cartoons, I suppose, and the resultant shallow, black-and-white 'thinking' that results (in other words, being a card-carrying member of the indoctrinated masses - why would indoctrinators tell the indoctrinated about the process?!?).
And here's the inevitable shut-down. "Pay no attention to Snert, he's INDOCTRINATED!". I certainly won't bother protesting, since that too would just be proof of indoctrination, right? In fact, the more one protests, the deeper that indoctrination must be!
Here's the thing: any position that you could describe as "indoctrination" is also a position that one could arrive at through reason and reflection. And you have no way of differentiating, so you say "it's indoctrination".
Your first quote above ("It's not a matter of I am right and you are wrong...") isn't really honest if you're going to then turn around and say "If you believe this thing that's different from what I believe, that's proof of your brainwashing". But if you sleep easier at night believing that everyone except you and those who believe what you believe have been brainwashed then 'pleasant dreams' and all that.
Fri, 2009-10-23 12:14
#46
remind
The criteria I use is when people make statements where the contradiction is obvious to others but not to them.
Exactly, where discontinuity is apparent, there you will find indoctrination occuring.
Fri, 2009-10-23 14:55
#47
remind
Linking to nbeltov's thread about direct instances of it
Sat, 2009-10-24 03:14
#48
C'mon, snert, name-calling isn't debate. Tell me why you know nothing whatsoever about where Canadian money comes from, and how that proves you are not indoctrinated.
Mon, 2009-10-26 13:15
#49
Snert
C'mon, snert, name-calling isn't debate.
I didn't call you any names.
Tell me why you know nothing whatsoever about where Canadian money comes from, and how that proves you are not indoctrinated.
Fascinating! A "reverse onus" clause on indoctrination.
Ya, no thanks. If you sleep better believing that people who don't share your beliefs are 'indoctrinated' then pleasant dreams.
Mon, 2009-10-26 19:23
#50
remind
Well that is kinda of an oxymoron, no?
How can one sleep better if one knows a dangerous amount of people are brainwashed and indoctrinated?
I know many First Nations peoples, who live on remote Reserves and never leave, because of their experiences at the hands of indoctrinated white people.
And to claim white people are not indoctrinated into their supremacy beliefs is nonsensical.Too much documented evidence otherwise. And too many programs developed to combat it.
Also, I think too much of people, to believe they, in majority, go around being racist and sexist on purpose to hurt and exploit people.
Mon, 2009-10-26 22:19
#51
The most startling thing about her words, were not that she may have cancer, but that she believes these other women and herself are martyres for the cause. What cause you ask? The cause of society's development and sustainment.Her exact words were; "well ...if some of us have to suffer and die, so all people have oil to use and a high standard of living, then that is what has to happen, people in Pittsburg and Detroit have also chosen to suffer their possible fate, for the good of the many".
Needless to say my jaw dropped. I mean...how do you respond to that type of stuff?
That is uttlerly amazing. All I can say is that at this point in her life, maybe it's best not to say very much to her about why she's so wrong about the corporatocracy being good for their victims. She needs medical help and to try to survive the cancer. Perhaps if and when she's recovered from the ordeal, then would be a good time to let her have it if she ever brings it up again. Is this what will become of all of us at some point, simple living Eloi bred to be food and sacrificed at the corporate altar?
Arthur Frayn: It was I who led you to the 'Wizard of Oz' book! Ha-hah, it was I who gave you access to the Stone! It was I!
[a chime is heard]
Arthur Frayn: I bred you! I led you!
Zed: And I have looked into the face of the force that put the idea in your mind. You are bred, and led, yourself.