Gary Doer defends Alberta oilsands

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Mon, 2009-10-19 10:40

Unionist

Quote:

[s]Harper's[/s] Canada's new amb[b]ASS[/b]ador [[i]emphasis added[/i]] to the United States said Alberta's oilsands are facing a "disproportionate amount" of criticism in the climate-change debate -- arguing North America risks missing "the big picture" on global warming if Canadian oil is singled out as the chief carbon emissions culprit.

"One of the concerns that I have is that it represents so little of the emissions in North America. It's getting a disproportionate amount of chatter," Gary Doer said in an interview Sunday with Canwest News Service.

[url=http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Canadian+ambassador+defends+Albert... Herald, of course[/color][/url]

Mon, 2009-10-19 11:35

Sean in Ottawa

Maybe this was a quick payback.

Was the job conditional on defending the tar sands? Arguably this is the most important current issue and what is better than a former NDP premier to come out with that.

This does not help NDP enviro creds at all-- unfortunate to have to underline that this is an ex-premier of a provincial party. Would be helpful if the current NDP government distanced themselves from this point of view.

Mon, 2009-10-19 11:42

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Maybe this was a quick payback.

Sounds more like a first instalment:

Quote:

"[b]The Prime Minister and I are of the same view[/b] – Canada's got a great [s]store to sell[/s] story to tell," Doer assured the Toronto Star on the eve of his arrival in Washington.

"I will be part of a team led by the Prime Minister, who definitely sets the tone. I will be accessible. But I've talked with the Prime Minister about this and we both agree [b]you don't want an undisciplined message[/b], because you won't get anything done."

[[i]emphasis added[/i]]

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/712160--gary-doer-set-to-tell-...

Mon, 2009-10-19 12:53

Polunatic2

Well, I don't expect that anyone here on babble expected that Harper would appoint someone to the job who wasn't with the tar sands program. Looks like that in the lead-up to Copenhagen, Harper is trying to position Canada as a victim of anti-climate change zealots. Doer is all too happy to go along with his new boss.

Mon, 2009-10-19 13:10

N.Beltov

Doer has had experience working with the State of Minnesota and, to some degree, the US Federal Government, dealing with the conduct of the State of North Dakota in diverting the waters of Devil's Lake into the Red River watershed and polluting both Minnesota and Manitoba with unknown foreign biota. So Doer knew some of the ins and outs of the purgatory of US politics from first hand experience.

Gosh, he might just be considered an honourary American. Hoo rah!

Mon, 2009-10-19 13:17

genstrike

Harper appointed a pro-war, pro-oilsands, pro-business, pro-free trade guy as ambassador.

I live in Manitoba, so I'm honestly not surprised. And I won't be surprised when Doer starts talking up the war in Afghanistan.

I'm just wondering how long it will take NDPers, especially those outside of Manitoba, to start realizing what Harper's new ambassador stands for.

Mon, 2009-10-19 13:31

Aristotleded24

genstrike wrote:

I'm just wondering how long it will take NDPers, especially those outside of Manitoba, to start realizing what Harper's new ambassador stands for.

I don't think Doer actually stands for or believes in anything other than his own popularity. What else would explain his ability to easily take on whatever position suits him or the people he's trying to impress?

Mon, 2009-10-19 13:33

N.Beltov

genstrike - What do you mean "starts" talking up the war in Afghanistan? Doer has been a regular snake oil salesman on that front ... especially, but not only, during election time.

Those babblers who are in the habit of denouncing left wing types - like me - for importing federal issues into provincial political discussions, especially if it relates to foreign policy, war and peace, and so on, were rather amusingly silent when I commented on this practice of former Premier Doer. Or I was told that it "wasn't that important". Hoo rah!

Mon, 2009-10-19 14:12

genstrike

N.Beltov wrote:

genstrike - What do you mean "starts" talking up the war in Afghanistan? Doer has been a regular snake oil salesman on that front ... especially, but not only, during election time.

You're right, I wasn't clear, I meant starts talking it up as ambassador - peaching our support for the "war on terror" and in Afghanistan, talking about more troops in Afghanistan (I think perhaps part of the reason why he was appointed was a cynical ploy to make the war a little more palatable to some progressives - Obama and the NDP premier are behind it together), things like that which he will be doing as ambassador.

Mon, 2009-10-19 14:14

#10

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

genstrike wrote:

I'm just wondering how long it will take NDPers, especially those outside of Manitoba, to start realizing what Harper's new ambassador stands for.

I don't think Doer actually stands for or believes in anything other than his own popularity. What else would explain his ability to easily take on whatever position suits him or the people he's trying to impress?

Thanks for that, Ari.

It reflects [b]so much better[/b] on the NDP.

Mon, 2009-10-19 15:37

#11

Fidel

That does it! I'm never voting for Gary Doer ever again.

Mon, 2009-10-19 16:00

#12

Sean in Ottawa

There are Greens who say that the NDP is all for the environment until it becomes a choice between jobs and growth on the one hand and the environment on the other-- then they screw the environment. This feeds into that perception. It also feeds in to an argument to change the federal party name and give some distance between it and provincial NDP governments.

I would like to think that this is not what the NDP is about but it is hard to reconcile Doer with any concept of NDP environmentalism.

I realize the federal party has done a lot of work in preparing policies on the environment and has been incredibly consistent in house votes on the file. But the party has not held power federally. Better to have no record than this record. I am inclined to see the merits in having different names and allowing seperation of federal and provincial parties-- let the federal NDP associate with a provincial cousin only if they are on the same page.

Anyone know if there is a reaction from the provincial NDP he left behind on this?

Mon, 2009-10-19 16:10

#13

genstrike

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Anyone know if there is a reaction from the provincial NDP he left behind on this?

Doer's cult of personality is still very much intact, and won't break down easily.

Mon, 2009-10-19 16:10

#14

Fidel

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Gary Doer didn't sell Canada's environment to Exxon-Imperial and friends. The federal Liberals and Tories did that all by themselves.

Gary Doer doesn't even represent the Manitoba NDP anymore, a party in a province that has nothing to do with dirty oil from tar sands. Laying the tar sands and NAFTA at Gary Doer's feet is a load of bunk. And anyone who tries to lay blame for Alberta's pollution export economy squarely on the shoulders of the NDP should not be taken seriously.

Mon, 2009-10-19 16:21

#15

Fidel

[url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Hydro+hike+CEGEP+tuition+fees+ta... hike, CEGEP tuition fees on the table[/url]
Liberal proposal Measures part of plan to balance budget by 2014

This is what happens when we have weak central governments clawing back federal transfers to provinces led by weak old line party leadership complicit with the pro-America agenda for importing cheap Canadian energy in general.

Our two old line parties want you to pay more for Canadian energy so that Americans living the most unsustainable way of life in the world can have more at Canadians' expense.

Mon, 2009-10-19 16:44

#16

Fidel

We've been saddled with an old world economy based on exporting raw materials and energy to the USA. We're in the middle of yet another capitalist crisis that is basically centred in North America and western world in general. But we can forget all that, because Gary is the evol Doer. And the Manitoba NDP, nay, all NDP'ers must take share in this baseball poker inning of the blame game.

Mon, 2009-10-19 17:01

#17

remind

Another thread one just has to love, just as one loves a snipey great aunt/uncle that smells funny and grabs your cheek. They have the best intentions, but are basically out to lunch.

Mon, 2009-10-19 17:40

#18

Polunatic2

I don't think that anyone in this thread who is critical of Doer's shilling for the conservatives and for his comments about the tar sands suggested that he is in any way representing the NDP. That is a red herring. A couple of posters did suggest however, that because of his PAST associations, it makes it more difficult for the party to develop its credibility on environmental issues. I don't think that's "out to lunch".

Bob Rae was defended by many in the ONDP after the party's embarrassing defeat in 1995. The mythology around that is that it was the public sector unions and the CAW's fault (as if the ONDP could have been "saved" by labour). For many of Rae's defenders, he only became an "evil-doer" after he became a member of the liberal party. Now they're among his shrillest critics because he turned out to be a turncoat - not because of anything he did while in office.

Did Bob Rae do some good things as Premier of Ontario? Absolutely. Did Doer do some good things for Manitoba? Undoubtedly although I don't know Manitoba politics. Did some in the Ontario labour movement over-react to the social contract? Probably. Did it cost the ONDP the 1995 election? Absolutely not. That's akin to the line that what is said on babble somehow has an impact on the NDP's political fortunes.

The good things done by NDP premiers and governments shouldn't provide teflon armor for the not-so-good things they did. Period. Why does it have to be all or nothing, i.e. saints or treacherous demons.

Mon, 2009-10-19 18:02

#19

remind

No one suggested they have to be saints at all.

And most definitely there is oblique connotations being made that indeed he does represent the NDP. Not even going to debate that with you, it is so evident.

Perhaps those not aware of how propaganda is used, in its many forms, would not see it, or perhaps would not recognize it as such, but I suspect they are few and far between on this site.

Mon, 2009-10-19 18:08

#20

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:

I don't think that anyone in this thread who is critical of Doer's shilling for the conservatives and for his comments about the tar sands suggested that he is in any way representing the NDP. That is a red herring. A couple of posters did suggest however, that because of his PAST associations, it makes it more difficult for the party to develop its credibility on environmental issues. I don't think that's "out to lunch".

Of course he is! He was an NDP premier for almost 10 years. He went through a revolving door to be ambassador to the US for Canada's most reactionary and retrograde prime minister. And suddenly all those years in the NDP mean nothing? Gimme a break.

Quote:

Bob Rae was defended by many in the ONDP after the party's embarrassing defeat in 1995. The mythology around that is that it was the public sector unions and the CAW's fault (as if the ONDP could have been "saved" by labour). For many of Rae's defenders, he only became an "evil-doer" after he became a member of the liberal party. Now they're among his shrillest critics because he turned out to be a turncoat - not because of anything he did while in office.

That's true, and it was the ONDP's failure to come to terms with Rae that is, in large part, responsible for their continued exile in the political wilderness.

The Manitoba NDP are not disowning Doer. Are the feds? Sean in Ottawa makes very valid points.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:06

#21

Unionist

Frustrated Mess wrote:

The Manitoba NDP are not disowning Doer. Are the feds?

I don't know. On August 27, 2009, the federal leader said of Mr. Doer:

Quote:

He exemplifies the best that the New Democratic Party has to offer. [...] He is and will always be an inspiration to our party.

There may be an update coming.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:11

#22

remind

See...such greataunt and uncle propaganda always works, it is tried and true. Thus people use it over and over again because they want either a Con or Liberal government I guess.

Nothing like those who want status quo to get a good laugh from.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:12

#23

Unionist

On August 28, the federal leader said:

Quote:
We have a number of troubling issues that need immediate attention: [b]climate change[/b], buy-U.S. protectionist policies and border security just to name three. Premier Doer is adept at threading his way through thickets of competing interests, at bringing all sides together and making everyone feel that they contributed to the final decision. I am delighted with his appointment. New Democrats feel honoured to have [b]one of our most effective leaders[/b] chosen to play this significant role on behalf all Canadians.

[[i]emphasis added[/i]]

"... on behalf of [b]all Canadians[/b]" ... The federal leader may not have been aware then that Mr. Doer (like Her Excellency Mme Jean) would merely be following Mr. Harper's orders.

I'll keep checking.

Or am I not supposed to quote the federal party talking about an ex-provincial leader? Sorry if I've broken any protocol.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:13

#24

remind

I am sure you will unionist, please do keep us in the loop, eh.

Entertainment value 100%

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:16

#25

Boom Boom

I watched Layton at the Doer farewell party on CBC. He was quite thrilled to be there, I guess he wasn't expecting Doer to be such a horse's ass on the tarsands project. I wonder how Layton feels today?

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:21

#26

kropotkin1951

Boom Boom wrote:

I watched Layton at the Doer farewell party on CBC. He was quite thrilled to be there, I guess he wasn't expecting Doer to be such a horse's ass on the tarsands project. I wonder how Layton feels today?

If that is true then I guess Layton is stupider than I gave him credit for. Hoorah for third way politicians!!!! Can you tell the Difference I Can't Tell the Difference.

___________________________________________

Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:31

#27

Fidel

Let's throw eggs at his house, and all the NDP supporters! That'll fix the Liberals and Tories who pawned off our environment to the fossil fuel industry over the last 25 years, and even further back than that. Grab a flaming torch everyone, and follow us to NDP headquarters!!

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:33

#28

remind

Why should Layton feel anything?

Gawd, i love babble!

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:49

#29

Fidel

Me three! Although, we're about 50 years too late. St Laurent and Diefenbaker were the ones responsible for selling off our natural gas to the Yanks in the 1950's. And their old line party successors merely finished the job with handing off the oil and gas to majority foreign ownership and control in 1989 and 94. But let's blame the NDP by proxy of the evol Doer named Gary, who isn't even an NDP premier anymore. Works for me. Let's roll!! And bring your, "We demand Canadians be clobbered with carbon taxes!" signs.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:55

#30

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

remind wrote:

See...such greataunt and uncle propaganda always works, it is tried and true. Thus people use it over and over again because they want either a Con or Liberal government I guess.

Nothing like those who want status quo to get a good laugh from.

You can keep fooling yourself remind, but the NDP is that status quo as much as the other two. It is you and other my-party-right-or-wrong-ers who represent the perpetuation of the status quo with the false hope of change through more of the same.

Mon, 2009-10-19 19:58

#31

remind

I got my pop corn already for more news, on how dastardly the federal NDP and Layton are, because of Doer....it'll be like watching a game of twister, where several people always end up with their noses up someone else's ass.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:01

#32

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Isn't your nose firmly up the ass of Layton? Funny you should say that, remind, as I never mentioned Layton. I only asked if the feds were disowning him. So perhaps your comments reflect your feelings about the federal NDP, in light of another cheap NDP sellout, than anyone else's.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:05

#33

Fidel

remind wrote:

I got my pop corn already for more news, on how dastardly the federal NDP and Layton are, because of Doer....it'll be like watching a game of twister, where several people always end up with their noses up someone else's ass.

That someone else's arse is Uncle Sam's. And they've had their heads inserted in it since at least the 1950's. But let's not sully the record of our two pro-USSA old line parties now with Gary Doer a perfectly good scapegoat. Their patriotism is about five decades too late to amount to anything, but what they heck. Better late and way off target than never I always say.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:18

#34

Fidel

Oh just ignore them, remind. They've got chips on their shoulders and former politicians who had nothing to do with pawning off the environment to private enterprisers to pelt with eggs. We'd best stand out of the way of the crazed villagers, because they mean business. Big business.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:26

#35

remind

You continue to make charges of partisanship FM, in order to; bash like there is something wrong with being partisan, and to allude to a notion that I cannot think clearly because of it, and it will get fucking nasty, quickly. I will no longer tolerate such, just as I will no longer tolerate misogyny here.

Have absolutely no qualms about making it as unpleasant as I can, if so, as it seems some people are going to go right back to the smears and oblique attacks against babblers, same as they always did, which created the fucking mess we have been addressing recently, in the first place.

It is corrosive, demeaning to all, and debilitating and more importantly it fratures what could be strong alliances to create much needed change.

Must you always play into the hands of those who would have it so?

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:37

#36

Webgear

Maybe the article below outlines change of Mr Doer's view in regards to oil.

"Manitoba has dethroned both Saskatchewan and Alberta as the most attractive Canadian province or territory for oil and gas investment, according to an international survey of petroleum executives and managers released today by independent research organization the Fraser Institute."

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/6766.aspx

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:44

#37

remind

What o you mean enough of the misogynist BS, it is a huge problem here, and I am not going to tolerate it, just as I am not going tolerate slams of partisanship.

You do not have a better argument than that, say nothing, as it is just a divisive smear.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:55

#38

remind

Sorry did not mean to skew it that way towards to you, as was not meaning you were a misogynist, i was just lumping the 2 together as things that were equal and that I have stopped tolerating here. And that blurred what I was saying.

My apologies I in no way think you are misogynist. Just anti-partisan and anti-NDP.

You do not seem to care whether or not the LibCons stay in power as you are spreading their false meme, of no oneis any different so it might as well be us.

And yes you were smearing partisan NDPers, and again I will not tolerate it.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:56

#39

Boom Boom

Sheesh. All I did was ask how Layton felt - Saturday night he's celebrating at a fete for Doer, then Sunday Doer comes up with this outrageous statement about the tar sands.

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:59

#40

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

deleted

Mon, 2009-10-19 20:59

#41

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Saying you are partisan, which you don't deny you are, and you are, is misogynstic? How? Please explain to me and the world how? Fidel is as partisan as they come. Is saying that misogynistic? If not, why not? If yes, why?

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:05

#42

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Apololgy accepted. Thank you. In appreciation I have amended or deleted my comments.

But you're wrong on the issue. I'm not anti-NDP. I am anti-partisan, however. I believe in issues and purposes as opposed to sides and teams.

When NDPers engage in making excuses or trying to sweep actions like that of Doer under the rug and pretend it is not endemic does not serve the interests of those in the NDP who believe in real change. In fact, to be authentic, the strongest criticism ought to becomimg from NDPers. In some cases, it is. I am not arguing this is a reason for NDPers to leave their party. It is a reason for NDPers to insist on principals and values being first before expediency and electability. Electing Conservatives and Liberals dressed in orange is no improvement.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:10

#43

remind

"Electing Conservatives and Liberals dressed in orange is no improvement."

I agree with that, and as a partisan NDPer, have done lots to get those who were the hell out, and in one case it meant criminal charges. So it really tees me off to say that I am so partisan, I cannot see.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:13

#44

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I appreciate you are but one person, still, if you were more succesful we could have avoided this particular embarrassment and the one who just replaced him (not to mention Bob Rae).

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:15

#45

Fidel

Webgear wrote:

Maybe the article below outlines change of Mr Doer's view in regards to oil.

"Manitoba has dethroned both Saskatchewan and Alberta as the most attractive Canadian province or territory for oil and gas investment, according to an international survey of petroleum executives and managers released today by independent research organization the Fraser Institute."

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/6766.aspx[/quote]

And why not? The Yanks have siphoned off nearly all of the cheapest and most accessible crude oil reserves in conservative Alberta. It's not our fossil fuel anyway. 60% of all fossil fuels produced in Canada is their's since NAFTA. There will be no money from Ottawa for Canadian oil companies or energy nationalism whatsoever in Canada if the two old line parties have anything to do with it. How can we weep tears over something that was pawned off to private enterprise and mainly US interests years ago? Talk about delayed reaction! It's 2009 not 1989 or even 1994. That ship left port years ago, when the NDP was fighting against foreign ownership and control of our natural resources and energy.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:17

#46

Fidel

It's all over now, baby blew.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:25

#47

Unionist

Gee, all I did was try to attack and ridicule Doer - which I've been doing for years - and people here start attacking and ridiculing [b]each other![/b] How about a little self-control, folks?

Boom Boom wrote:
Sheesh. All I did was ask how Layton felt - Saturday night he's celebrating at a fete for Doer, then Sunday Doer comes up with this outrageous statement about the tar sands.

Layton praised Doer on the day he quit as Premier, and he praised him on the very next day when he was named U.S. ambassador. Your question is spot on. Obviously Doer no longer represents the NDP - [b]BUT LAYTON DOES[/b]. He is absolutely responsible to the entire party for the public statements he issues. If he doesn't condemn this latest bootlicker of Stephen Harper, the clear and obvious conclusion is that [b]LAYTON AGREES WITH HIM[/b]. Had he kept his mouth shut in August, he could of course remained in hiding now and offered a "NO COMMENT". But it's way too late and disingenuous to try that now.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:36

#48

kropotkin1951

When the federal NDP stops disciplining its most left wing MP's for voting against the US style get tough on crime bullshit and starts acting like a socialist party I will stop thinking they are merely third way sell outs. They have co-opted the left side of Canada's political spectrum to move it to the centre. No they are not as bad as the Lib/Con they are only out of power. If the Liberals collapse they will replace them and become the new liberal party same old same old.

In the meantime I will continue to work to elect my NDP MP because he is worth fighting to send to Ottawa.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:39

#49

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

In the meantime I will continue to work to elect my NDP MP because he is worth fighting to send to Ottawa.

Likewise. At least my MP took some risks to defend his beliefs about the environment.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:40

#50

Fidel

N.Beltov wrote:
Gosh, he might just be considered an honourary American. Hoo rah!

What about those politicos who signed FTA and NAFTA? Or was that too long ago to even mention? Short term memories perhaps?

I think the way provincial NDP governments look at the old line party betrayals on energy is that if the stuff has to be siphoned off to the States under NAFTA trade rules signed by Tories and Liberals, then we might as well try and create a few jobs here in Canada. The way the pollution distribution pipeline is setup now and liquification of tar sands technology capable of carrying it ALL to the US and Great Lakes regions to pollute and poison the environment there, shouldnt we at least have a few refining jobs in Canada? The NDP is still trying to turn old line party lemons for dumb-dumb trade deals with the Yanks into lemonade, but our stoogeocrats in Ottawa would let it all go south if they have it their way.

Mon, 2009-10-19 21:58

#51

Polunatic2

Quote:
That'll fix the Liberals and Tories who pawned off our environment to the fossil fuel industry"

True. But what is the NDP's energy policy now? I can't find any reference in the 2008 program to nationalizing any sector of the energy industry. Are we to be satisfied with a few new refinery jobs? In fact, the NDP is not opposed to further tar sands development. But they do have conditions.

Quote:
Halt any new tar sands development until carbon emissions are capped, significant environmental and health impacts are addressed, and protected areas are set aside.

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