Making it legal doesn't take the stigma off. A class of women whose job it is to service men sexually stays stigmatized.
I do not believe that an exotic dancer's voice should have more weight than a bartender's on the issue of prostitution. You are attempting to claim that priviledge.
You are attacking me, putting words in my mouth, challenging my history.
You avoided my question. Were you a prostitute or not?
Edited to add, Legalization does not make prostitution safer.
Stargazer wrote
"Besides, I'm not even sure she ever did sex work, and if so, what she did. Until she tells me that I don't consider her a sex worker or ex sex worker".
I find this extremely abusive. In terms of this discussion I find it appalling. What do you risk by accepting this woman's word? This is a low way to win anything never mind a simple discussion. You are a not a defense lawyer who gets to put the rape victim on trial to defend his client
Are we to let this be a competition now to see who is abused enough to speak or who can be so abusive no other point of view wants to speak?
If you are just looking for the gory details I have thousands for you. I have been taking crisis calls from women in prostitution since 1973. Thousands and believe me many are deeply imprinted on my brain. Some of those women are not even around anymore to tell the stories. There is no need and no excuse for you to do a panty check on women who offer their experience to you as a credential. A credential you insisted on seeing
I have not been encouraging the women I know who are interested in this topic and have things to say from personal experience to join this group for exactly this reason.
Thsi woman was encouraged to confess and reduce herself to only the story of her abuse instead of to her anlaysis of it and her accomplishments and then mocked and discredited for her honesty and courage to speak her truth because she has the dignity to insist that she thinks both in spite of and because she has been abused.
This is such a classic bating steriotyping to deminish her voice on the question of her own freedom. Just becasue you don't like what she has to say
Shouldn't saying "I am / was a sex worker" be enough? Anything beyond that should be voluntary imho.
No, it shouldn't be. The issue is prostitution not "sex work" in general. I don't believe anyone's voices should be carrying extra weight in the debate but if it must be so then that should be limited to prostitutes and ex-prostitutes.
At other times in this forum, long before now, I have shared my experiences with incest and with multiple rapes and yet Stargazer challenged my confession here. She is claiming the right to "special weight" for her voice.
I agree that forced confessionals are outrageous. I resent it very much and said so. However, given that I have had to make mine I think it's only fair that anyone else who wants "extra weight" on the subject of prostitution do the same.
If she wasn't a prostitute then her voice is not equal to mine on this topic and she should be more respectful.
I think we should give Michelle and Stargazer and everyone else a chance to breathe instead of escalating this issue, because there is an important principle involved.
I have not been encouraging the women I know who are interested in this topic and have things to say from personal experience to join this group for exactly this reason.
Thank-you Lee. People don't understand. I have been trying to stay dispersonal, discuss the facts not the emotions. But I feel so deeply ashamed and vulnerable and exposed now. I tell myself I have nothing to be ashamed of. What happened to me wasn't my fault, I'm not damaged goods. But I don't believe it. I didn't want to confess but I did it because that's the price.
I paid the price of admission. Trisha paid the price. Even Susan paid the price.
If Stargazer wants the privilege she has to pay the price of humiliation too.
If Stargazer wants the privilege she has to pay the price of humiliation too.
Absolutely NO.
On the contrary, skdadl, I have flagged Stagazer's post and I hope that everyone here who has some respect for sex workers and for Babble does it too.
Look, this problem crept up on us. If I'd seen it coming sooner, I would have said something then because we are talking about a most fundamental principle here. But I didn't see it and I didn't say anything -- my failure.
However, I think we can now see the problem. We don't solve it by continuing the harm. "Pay the price of humiliation"? No bricklefritzin' way would I support that, for anyone, for any reason. This isn't the fourteenth century.
I think people need a chance to think about this.
If Stargazer wants the privilege she has to pay the price of humiliation too.
Absolutely NO.
Then she doesn't get the "privilege" either. After all, there's nothing to be ashamed of right? No stigma right?
I agree with skdadl. I'm sorry Info. Really I am. I have to think about this a lot more and put everything into context. Besides, you have no idea what I have or have not done. Some things I can chose not to disclose. Besides, there isn't a whole lot of difference these days between stripping and prostitution, and I think we all know that.
Lee, absolutely no one is claiming or has claimed that exploitation does not occur. It does. Far far far too much. There are women who work the streets for drugs, out of poverty, for a myriad of reasons. We need to make society safer for them and everyone else doing sex work. The way to do that is through open dialogue. Women are being killed and some people want to see it abolished. Yet that is not going to happen. Criminalizing it more isn't going to make it better.
Martin, seriously, your passive aggrssive bullying is annoying and tiresome. Not to mention your hypocrisy. (I can point out hypocrisy right or are you going to claim it's an attack? Because I'm sure others would agree with my assessment.
For my part I would like to apologize to Info for my post above. I mean that sincerely.
Now I'm going to take skdadl's advice and stay out of these threads until this dies down a bit. I have no idea why it is so hard for us to come up with a safer solution that includes all workers, exploited and not, but it is. So I'm going to spend some time looking and researching more.
BTW, I don't feel humilated. Why should I? But thanks for the witch burning suggestions. Martin, flag as many posts as you want. You were a john for christ sake. Give it up.
and would like to end the criminalization of their work and also not be drowned out by a a lot of people subjecting them to their own world's we sort of need a protective space.
"We" need a protected space Stargazer? So you were a prostitute too then?
I didn't prove your point.
So why don't you just tell us the truth Stargazer?
Michelle asked for suggestions for a name for this forum. How about, "Keep at 'em until they break".
Could someone explain to me what this stuff is doing to babble?
I'm sorry Info. Really I am.
Accepted
Besides, you have no idea what I have or have not done. Some things I can chose not to disclose.
That's fine. But then don't pretend you have "lived experience".
Besides, there isn't a whole lot of difference these days between stripping and prostitution, and I think we all know that.
I don't. Some strip clubs force the women into prostitution but not all of them. If there's no difference then you shouldn't have any trouble disclosing.
Oh, but the strip clubs got a lot worse when lap-dancing got legalized. They didn't want to have do that you know. If prostitution goes legal it will get even worse for "exotic dancers". If it were the same thing then exotic dancers wouldn't mind saying they were prostitutes.
We need to make society safer for them and everyone else doing sex work. The way to do that is through open dialogue. Women are being killed and some people want to see it abolished. Yet that is not going to happen.
Open dialogue? So lets cut the crap with the euphemisms. It's not exotic dancings and it's not sex work. It's prostitution. Drunk driving can't be abolished either but making it legal wouldn't help. Making johns and pimps legal doesn't help either.
Martin, seriously, your passive aggrssive bullying is annoying and tiresome. Not to mention your hypocrisy. (I can point out hypocrisy right or are you going to claim it's an attack? Because I'm sure others would agree with my assessment
Martin is being a hypocrite? Are you kidding me?
I have no idea why it is so hard for us to come up with a safer solution that includes all workers, exploited and not, but it is. So I'm going to spend some time looking and researching more.
There's nothing hard about it. You just let everyone be equal. I had no problem with that. I felt perfectly safe, except from Susan.
BTW, I don't feel humilated. Why should I?
No Stargazer, why would you feel humilated. You were never a prostitute. You just want to pretend to have some expertise on the subject, you want to speak for us, express your compassion for us, tell us how much safer we will be when it's legal. I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
You were a john for christ sake. Give it up.
Which gives him more insight then you will ever have. You seem really big on confessions as long as they don't include you.
Michelle asked for suggestions for a name for this forum. How about, "Keep at 'em until they break".
Could someone explain to me what this stuff is doing to babble?
I've been trying to explain that for a very long time. Most recently, remember the Polanski thread? Remember my saying it wasn't helpful to privilege some posters over others? Remember my saying what people say should be more important than who is saying it?
Info
I see your point but I would like to talk you out of pressing Stargazer to do as Stargazer pressed you to do. It may be fair in some tick off way but I say it is unhelpful both ways.
... to do as Stargazer pressed you to do.
She did? I missed that. I was under the impression that whatever Infosaturated revealed, she did of her own accord.
Shall we get into a recapitualtion now?
Personally, I see little use in that.
Suffice it to say, a forum was created for the express purpose of having sex workers voices heard and validated.
Once that happened, there is no where else this could go, but have people state whether they were prostitutes, front line sex workers or other.
If they did not, they would not be considered to be speaking from an authentic voice, based upon lived experiences.
It is passive aggressive forcing one to self disclose and nothing more.
You are not willing to disclose, you have no voice!
People can pretend that it was otherwise, or a mistake, or they did not see it, all they want.
There was only one outcome possible given the circumstances.
Info
I see your point but I would like to talk you out of pressing Stargazer to do as Stargazer pressed you to do. It may be fair in some tick off way but I say it is unhelpful both ways.
I'm fine with that but then she doesn't get to say that there's no real difference between exotic dancing and prostitution. It's not true. By saying exotic dancing is pretty much the same thing as prostitution she is minimizing prostitution and pretending to speak for women like me as an "insider".
Everybody gets to participate in the discussion not just prostitutes. You get to participate. Martin gets to participate.
She is continuing to say things like this, after her apology, without any substanciation:
We need to make society safer for them and everyone else doing sex work. The way to do that is through open dialogue. Women are being killed and some people want to see it abolished. Yet that is not going to happen. Criminalizing it more isn't going to make it better.
She wants to decriminalize pimps and brothel owners. She keeps talking about "women are being killed" as though decriminalization of pimps and johns is going to end that.
She doesn't get to appropriate my voice. I was perfectly willing for everyone's voices to be equal. I fought for it. I am still willing for everyone's voices to be equal.
But if some voices are going to be privileged over others then they don't get to claim my lived experience by saying it's the same as exotic dancing.
They want to disappear prostitutes by putting it under the "sex worker" label.
... to do as Stargazer pressed you to do.
She did? I missed that. I was under the impression that whatever Infosaturated revealed, she did of her own accord.
Then you missed this:
I'm not even remotely buying Info as some victim of babble or of anyone attempting to silence her. Besides, I'm not even sure she ever did sex work, and if so, what she did. Until she tells me that I don't consider her a sex worker or ex sex worker. All she posted up was some info about some of her family members in sex work - not her.(for which she apologized)
After I reconfirmed she said this:
You're right, we really shouldnt need a sex worker's rights forum but until sex workers can come onboard here and actually post that they don't feel exploited and would like to end the criminalization of their work and also not be drowned out by a a lot of people subjecting them to their own world's we sort of need a protective space.Okay Info, so you were a prostitute. You felt exploited, and that is terrible, but you're attempting to shut down the voices and views of those who don't feel the same way as you do. Even that I truly don't have a huge issue with. I have a huge issue with people against legalizing and making their work legit, so they can be safer.
She tries to dismiss my experience as though it's just me that happened to "feel" exploited. I didn't "feel" exploited, I was exploited. She keeps repeating over and over again like some mantra that legalization will make prostitution safer but she never ever offers any proof. I have offered proof that it doesn't make prostitutes safer. She insinuates that prostitution is almost like exotic dancing but it isn't. If she really had done both she would know the difference.
Everyone's been all, "oh, it shouldn't be stigmitized, it's a job just like any other, it should be accepted as an industry". Well anybody here have trouble confessing they're a teacher? A garbage collector? A nanny? A clerk at MacDonalds?
Bunch of hypocrites. All of a sudden there's a problem with people admitting they were prostituted.
I get to say there is a BIG difference between exotic dancing and prostitution.
Excuse me Infosaturated but aren't you asking me to do exactly what you asked me not to do to you? Disclose more information about my past? I have absolutely no idea who or what you have done in your past. No real way of validating anything you say. I have to accept what you say at face value. You are attempting to set me up to reveal things that I just will not reveal on a public board. I am not going there. You can question the validity of my lived experience as you chose to. But you see Info, that doesn't make it go away.
What do we call women or men who take money from clients in exchange for a sex act? I think you used the term prostitution. This isn't a narrow term suited to fit only missonary sex acts between a man and a woman. Any act that involves any type of sex for money is referred to as prostitution. Now if you truly are or were a dancer, then you would know what goes on in clubs these days between most women and their customers. Girls end up going home with nothing to show for a full night's work because they refuse to do what other girls will do for 20 dollars. There is no difference between these acts if the one doing them in a prostitute or a stripper. The law is arbitrary. If often is.
I am well aware of what happened prior to the end of g-strings. There was a lot of English/French animosity over that one. Things changed. Lapdances where no one got to touch you, let alone blow on you are gone and they are not coming back.
Do you have any more questions for me? I'm pretty sure I'm well versed in this area, so go ahead.
What constitutes prostitution is purely arbitrary in the sexual sense. I'm pretty sure you know exactly what I mean. You categorically deny the reality of what happens in strip clubs when you deny that there are a hell of a lot of men paying money to do more than blow on a woman these days, in Toronto clubs anyways.
Funny thing was I felt bad before coming back and was going to again apologize but I think I'll take a pass on that.
This appears to be one of those topics that shares at least one commonality with another pivotal topic, where those affected are dissuaded from exploring matters involving unique perspectives and respectful dialogue. If the AR forum has shown us anything over the years, it is that the limits of comprehension and willingness are quickly realized, beyond which everything disintegrates into anarchy whereby anything of value becomes lost in the stifling atmosphere of chaos and recrimination. What isn't lost within the boundaries set by others is at least some concept of the daunting and dangerous challenges that exist, when even discussion requires self defence.
Well, I'm not sure what to do now. As skdadl says, it might be a good idea to take a breather.
Infosaturated, you're being extremely abusive in this thread, and you will stop or you will not participate in this thread or any other threads where you continue this sort of abuse any longer. Your choice.
While Stargazer was wrong to say what she did about not believing you about having been a prostitute, I saw her apologize for that sincerely (if I had come along before she did, I'd have called her out on it, but I've been busy today). Since then, I see Stargazer trying to think this through, and respond to concerns raised by you and others, but I see you doing nothing but baiting and trying to create conflict and be confrontational here.
No one forced you to do anything here, nor did anyone "force" you to "confess" anything. You chose to disclose, and you chose how much to disclose, but you don't get to choose how much other people disclose.
I'm closing this, and I'd like to see any future threads started in this forum take place with a less confrontational tone or they will be closed as well, and those doing the most to create the conflict will be asked to stop participating.
