YAY!!!let's respect each other!

9 posts / 0 new

Last post

Mon, 2009-10-26 14:26

susan davis susan davis's picture

YAY!!!let's respect each other!

i am so greatful for the creation of this space.

i hereby declare that i will not post in abolitionist threads and hope abolitionists will respect me in the same way.

in order for to be able to organize on whatever side we happen to be on we need uninterrupted space to do it.

i am going to work some of the aspects of our plan that i feel we could design here and hope abolitionist rhetoric will not be imposd on what could be very important discussions in designing an inclusive system of governace for the sex industry.

first will be potential sex indusrty review board vision, goals and mandate....

as soon as our draft occupational health and safety training is completed being editied i would also like to ask for people feed back, comments, edits, additions to that work

and i am working on identifying government agencies currently involved with policing and supporting sex industry to see where we could utilize existing infastructure to support sex industry governance.

i will post our ideas as they develop and hope to benefit from the incredibe knowledge and experience of the members of babble!

it really moves me to see spece created for the sex industry. thankyou to everyone!

Mon, 2009-10-26 17:24

E.Tamaran

Would it be a system like they have in Amsterdam, where the women (mostly women) are placed in display cases for passers by to peruse? That's totally degrading and I would not support that type of system.

Mon, 2009-10-26 19:31

skdadl

Susan, as I've been reading through the discussions of the past couple of weeks, I've realized that I'd never sorted out in my own mind all kinds of distinctions among constitutional principle, statutory law, industrial and professional regulation, and public-health regulation.

You've obviously had to do a lot of that work to get where you are even now. I'm hoping to learn some of what I'd never thought of before from you, and I hope that some of our lawyerly types might chime in too, because we all always need to know what we're facing from our still-messed-up laws -- most of us just plain don't know enough.

Mon, 2009-10-26 19:57

Infosaturated

susan davis wrote:
i am going to work some of the aspects of our plan that i feel we could design here and hope abolitionist rhetoric will not be imposd on what could be very important discussions in designing an inclusive system of governace for the sex industry.

I think I understand what you are trying to do here Susan. If you recall, I suggested this very thing weeks ago, that a thread could be devoted to your plans. However, the statement above starts it off on the wrong foot. Your reference to "abolitionist rhetoric" comes across as hostile. I will of course respect your desire for a constructive thread it would just work out better if the introductory post didn't seem to be throwing down the gautlet. It seems like an invitation to battle rather than an attempt to avoid one.

The title of your thread doesn't indicate the topic either. It's up to you of course, but you may want to consider starting a new thread that reflects what you want to discuss along with a polite request explaining that it is for people who support full decriminalization or want to learn more about it, make constructive suggestions concerning regulations, etc.

Mon, 2009-10-26 20:07

martin dufresne

I disagree with the notion that abolitionist perspectives, even coming from present or former sex workers, are forbidden here (the new "sex workers rights" forum). Unless I am mistaken, this space is in no way "created for the sex industry," with whom - as was seen on the lap dancing issue - sex workers at often at loggerheads when defending their rights as human beings and workers.

Mon, 2009-10-26 20:48

Infosaturated

Ooops, one more tip. I couldn't figure out why people were making their first post in a thread .__.

I figured it out after I realized I couldn't edit my introductory post after starting a new thread. Learn something new every day.

Mon, 2009-10-26 22:26

Stargazer

martin dufresne wrote:

I disagree with the notion that abolitionist perspectives, even coming from present or former sex workers, are forbidden here (the new "sex workers rights" forum). Unless I am mistaken, this space is in no way "created for the sex industry," with whom - as was seen on the lap dancing issue - sex workers at often at loggerheads when defending their rights as human beings and workers.

Here is why we agreed to having a semi-protected forum. We've discussed this martin. Sorry, you're going to have to relinguish some control and discuss abolistment in the many other threads we have related to eradicating partriarchy and men's insatiable and violent need to exploit and abuse women (read here what you will).

I'm pretty sure we discussed this. There is no need for another 5 threads on exploitation in sex work. That's a given. As I said above, start a thread and we'll all agree that men's exploitation of women is bad and we'll all agree and discuss how one day, men won't be ruling the world and women won't be selling their bodies out of poverty, or fear.

I think for now at least give sex workers a tiny space away from that to start dealing with the here and now. So things can change now. We can ponder and theorize forever on patriarchy and other ideologies holding women down, in the meantime people need safe working spaces and a place to talk about what is happening right now.

Tue, 2009-10-27 11:29

susan davis susan davis's picture

E.Tamaran wrote:

Would it be a system like they have in Amsterdam, where the women (mostly women) are placed in display cases for passers by to peruse? That's totally degrading and I would not support that type of system.

no, that is not our goal. in vancouver for instance, we already have municipal by laws prohibiting nude dancing in windows and other such amsterdamesque displays. our objective is to stabilize our industry as it stands and to try to end survival street level sex work. so the sex industry now is not in your face nude dancing girls in windows nor are graphic signs depicting sexual or adult material allowed.

we are however trying to empower workers by giving them choices, safe places to work(many businesses already exist- adult film companies, escort services, massage parours,exotic show lounges) and the tools tomake safe decsions about their work.

we do not support red light disctricts like found in many european countires as many of us prefer to be a little more low key, canadians in general i think are a very polite society and we aren't as in your face about sexuality as other societies....

info staurated. martin;

ok i see your point and will try not to use the word rhetoric anymore.

all i am saying is we could try to respect each others goals ad allow each side to have it's space.

for instance, if i post material related to proposed by law revisions, i would hope for a little respect in that it is not related to whether canada adopt the swedish or decrim models.

input from any one related to the contents of the revisions however is absolutely welcome. it is my sincere wish to be inclusive in all actions as we go forward. i might point out that you all gave critical input for the CAEC terms of referenceas in my opinion and now we have a much stronger, clearer statement of principles. i am greatful.

if we want to continue to debate decrim vs sweden, it should be in a seperate thread, agreed?so other issues and concerns can be discussed....

same goes for trying to design what a law for criminalizing consumers and business owners would look like. when the laws fall, and they will fall i would think that abolitionists who support the swedish model would want to be ready with a plan or proposed language for such a law. it will not be something that can be thrown together at the last minute if you want it to be effective and cause no harm.

i committ to not interfering with that process in anyway that will derail or delay it other than to comment on specific language etc. since i do not sgree with that approach it's probably safe to say, i won't have much to offer anyway...

can we agree that we all need space and that we can resect each other enough to allow it?

susie

Tue, 2009-10-27 11:39

susan davis susan davis's picture

martin, you are correct about lateral oppression in the sex industry. it is a barrier we are working on all the time and are seeing some movement forward.

that is why the term sex industry worker has been adopted by many as a term that unites us all. many feel the term sex worker means explicitly and only prostitute. exotic dancers are not prostitutes and are uncomfortable with a term they feel casts them as such. sex industry worker creates a larger image for most people and does not just make them think of full contact sex workers.

also, we are a newly emerging workers movement so these terms will change and grow over and over for instance- abolitionists now say prostituted person, where sex worker was basically accepted by all for some time before that.

the divides in our movement and the differences in experiences and opinions on how to move forward have made the emergence of this term necessary as a way for ex workers who support abolition based on their negative experieces. they do not see them selves as workers and their experiences must be respected.

i find the term hurtful as i am sure ex workers find theterm sex industry worker hurtful. it has been a long and pain filled road to get where we are now and i am sure it will not get better before it gets worse....i hope not but this is an issue filled with emotion as we have all seen in the past few months.