Is H1N1 in your area?

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Wed, 2009-10-28 23:33

Trevormkidd

saganisking wrote:
I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until the last few weeks

Meh, Babble has always had its fair share of pro-science and anti-science posters. For the longest time I think the pro-science side was better represented. However, when a paranoid conspiracy theorist of the level of tigana shows up it is time to move on as it would take a team of people to counter her baloney spreading. I have only rarely posted here since she arrived as it would take a couple hours to counter the baloney she made in a couple minutes and in that couple hours more and more baloney would be posted. I don't see the point.

It is sort like this post at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/physics.php where it shows that it takes a well-known and respected physicist over an hour to counter the baloney that a homeopath spreads in 8 minutes about physics.

How many times has tigana posted the baloney about Maurice Hilleman and Merck being responsible for spreading Aids? 5 times? Based on poor joke made by Hilleman (who was constantly accused of every imaginable falsehood by anti-vaxers so he used to make jokes about it) which could not, to anyone with a brain, be possibly true as he was talking about SV40 which is not HIV and african greens are not carriers of an HIV/SIV type virus or strain or even anything similar. It is something that anyone without an agenda could figure out in about 2 minutes, but tigana has been spreading that crap around the internet for a couple years.

How many times has tigana sullied the name of Marcia Angell who would be horrified to see her words being promoted for complete quack purposes.

How many times has tigana posted links to orthomolecular medicine in this thread alone? 11 times? Are those not the pieces of shit who are going around africa convincing HIV/AIDS patients to go off their real medications and replace them with high priced vitamins based on zero evidence? Angell has spent much of career fighting against the very frauds that are promoted here.

How many times has tigana posted links to cancer is a fungus baloney while at the same time posting links to every other unproven quack cancer "cure" which is based on cancer being something other than fungus? Several times. But that is the point. As long as it doesn't have a shred of evidence then even though it all completely contradicts each other it must be right. Anything with evidence is clearly bad. Kind of like the contradictions in the bible don't matter to a believer. Believer's in the religion of alternative medicine don't care.

And then of course the lies about vaccines. The lies about where H1N1 came from. Funny thing is when people who spread this baloney about H1N1 baloney they don't admit or caution other people that they also believed and spread every lie about the HPV vaccine. Of course, none of those lies were true, but that won't stop a conspiracy theorist from having absolute faith that every conspiracy about their new target is absolutely true.

Actually, to tell you the truth, it speaks to the credit of number of people on babble who care about evidence and science that these ridiculous claims are still being countered as well as they are.

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:37

#103

Boom Boom

Trevormkidd wrote:
Meh, Babble has always had its fair share of pro-science and anti-science posters. For the longest time I think the pro-science side was better represented. However, when a paranoid conspiracy theorist of the level of tigana shows up it is time to move on as it would take a team of people to counter her baloney spreading. I have only rarely posted here since she arrived as it would take a couple hours to counter the baloney she made in a couple minutes and in that couple hours more and more baloney would be posted. I don't see the point.

I feel the same way. Why is she still here, Mods?

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:49

#104

Sineed

Boom Boom wrote:

Why is she still here, Mods?

Ditto.

And Trevor, you've echoed a lot of what I've thought - but I'm too damn busy to refute all this crap.

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:52

#105

jas

Um, actually, that's a personal attack, Trevor Kid and Boom Boom. Post has been flagged.

If that's the best you can do for your "side" of the debate, you might as well give it up.

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:53

#106

saganisking

I add my thanks to trevor

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:57

#107

G. Muffin

saganisking wrote:
Hollywood is pro medication ???? where do you think the biggest promoters of the whole vaccines cause autism are from

I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until the last few weeks

Is this in reference to my post at #82? I wanted to check before responding.

Wed, 2009-10-28 23:58

#108

saganisking

Hollywood is pro medication ???? where do you think the biggest promoters of the whole vaccines cause autism are from

I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until this week

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:05

#109

saganisking

G pie yes partly

I don't see "hollywood" as being pro-medicine in the least and i think it's offensive to refer to people with mental illnesses as 'crazy"

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:06

#110

Polly B

I agree with jas - that was a personal attack.

"Tigana does not think like the group, she must go. We only wanna discuss this stuff with people who agree with us".

Fuck that.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:07

#111

G. Muffin

saganisking wrote:
I don't see "hollywood" as being pro-medicine in the least and i think it's offensive to refer to people with mental illnesses as 'crazy"

By "Hollywood," I mean the entertainment product not any particular individual (Scientologist). And shows like the Law & Order episode referenced in this thread where an unmedicated bipolar person kills sends a very pro-medicine message.

Sorry you find the word "crazy" offensive but as a person living with a bona fide mental disorder, I assert the right to call it whatever I want.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:11

#112

martin dufresne

What jas said.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:14

#113

ennir

Yah Polly B!

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:19

#114

Unionist

saganisking wrote:

I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until this week

Babble is not anti-science, any more than you are a mindless generalizer based on inadequate evidence. There are a few posters here who question science rather frequently. They do not own babble. The fact that some of us don't respond to every faddish anti-scientific post can be put down to fatigue.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:22

#115

Bubbles

I agree with Polly B. When we have to run tests on drugs for years and years before we can tell with a degree of certainty that they do no harm then the science about our bodiesis far from understood.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:32

#116

saganisking

I hear what you're saying unionist , some posts seemed offensive enough that I was suprised to see them on this site. it was not intended as a slur on the whole community

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:34

#117

Polly B

saganisking wrote:

Hollywood is pro medication ???? where do you think the biggest promoters of the whole vaccines cause autism are from

I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until this week

Interesting edit saganisking. Figured it fit better with the fact that you just signed up?

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:38

#118

Unionist

saganisking wrote:

I hear what you're saying unionist , some posts seemed offensive enough that I was suprised to see them on this site. it was not intended as a slur on the whole community

No problem. There are plenty of us here who speak up, on occasion, to condemn the blind pursuit of the frauds of homeopathy, chiropractic, placebo-worship, faith healing, anti-vaccination, and all the other efforts to confound legitimate opposition to capitalist profiteers with conspiracy theory / anti-science. The response is sometimes a bit on the frightening side, but we manage to regroup and return to the charge. I sincerely appreciate your shock that mediaeval notions like these should appear on a progressive site. But please understand that in many cases, they originate with dreadful personal experiences based on neglect and abuse by the "official" health care system and a genuine striving against Big Pharma and such evils. The people are good, even if some of their posts are off the wall.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:38

#119

Polly B

Trevormkidd wrote:

saganisking wrote:
I really had no idea that Babble was so anti-science until the last few weeks

Meh, Babble has always had.......

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:46

#120

Tigana

Gosh, some Babblers really hate their vegetables, don't they ?

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:54

#121

jas

Unionist wrote:

But please understand that in many cases, they originate with dreadful personal experiences based on neglect and abuse by the "official" health care system and a genuine striving against Big Pharma and such evils. The people are good, even if some of their posts are off the wall.

Thank you, father. You seem to know so much about it all, and can sum up other people's points of view so succinnnctly... Lollipops for everyone?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:01

#122

Unionist

jas wrote:

Unionist wrote:

But please understand that in many cases, they originate with dreadful personal experiences based on neglect and abuse by the "official" health care system and a genuine striving against Big Pharma and such evils. The people are good, even if some of their posts are off the wall.

Thank you, father. You seem to know so much about it all, and can sum up other people's points of view so succinnnctly... Lollipops for everyone?

See saganisking, don't think that our failure to respond to sad posts like these is an indication of consent.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:12

#123

Tigana

How about some fresh carrot juice, Unionist?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:14

#124

Polly B

Unionist wrote:

saganisking wrote:

I hear what you're saying unionist , some posts seemed offensive enough that I was suprised to see them on this site. it was not intended as a slur on the whole community

No problem. There are plenty of us here who speak up, on occasion, to condemn the blind pursuit of the frauds of homeopathy, chiropractic, placebo-worship, faith healing, anti-vaccination, and all the other efforts to confound legitimate opposition to capitalist profiteers with conspiracy theory / anti-science. The response is sometimes a bit on the frightening side, but we manage to regroup and return to the charge. I sincerely appreciate your shock that mediaeval notions like these should appear on a progressive site. But please understand that in many cases, they originate with dreadful personal experiences based on neglect and abuse by the "official" health care system and a genuine striving against Big Pharma and such evils. The people are good, even if some of their posts are off the wall.

My bold. I am curious as to what is the legitimate opposition to capitalist profiteers and where can I sign up?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:17

#125

Unionist

Tigana wrote:

How about some fresh carrot juice, Unionist?

I don't support the murder of carrots for idle human enjoyment. You apparently do. I guess we were brought up differently or something. By the way, have I ever ridiculed you, or are you just flirting?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:35

#126

Tigana

Hi, Unionist, just keeping it light. Have a good evening and a pleasant tomorrow.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:04

#127

mmphosis

<a href="http://www.georgecarlin.com/">George Carlin</a> wrote:
I recently went to a new doctor and noticed he was located in something called the “Professional Building.” I felt better right away.

Thu, 2009-10-29 07:45

#128

Ghislaine

martin dufresne wrote:

Isn't it bizarre that the list of affected schools (those where the flu count overpasses 10%) is being kept SECRET??? I heard this mentioned matter-of-factly on Radio-Canada radio this afternoon.

Perhaps that is just in Quebec? They announced here on PEI yesterday that [url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2009/10/28/pei-swine... eight schools have higher than 10 percent [/url] absenteeism due to "flu-like symptoms". They have been updating this daily. My mother is a school secretary and since the beginning of the school year, she has to make daily calls to the board office telling them the number of students and staff out with flu-like symptoms. She finds it a real pain, because every single caller has to be asked a list of questions during the busy morning period.

Thu, 2009-10-29 09:00

#129

Boom Boom

There was a "Professional Building" also in Ottawa with medical and dental offices when I was a kid. Probably in the 50s and 60s every city had one of these.

Thu, 2009-10-29 09:00

#130

Boom Boom

There was a "Professional Building" also in Ottawa with medical and dental offices when I was a kid. Probably in the 50s and 60s every city had one of these.

Thu, 2009-10-29 09:18

#131

Unionist

In Winnipeg of yore, there was the "Medical Arts Building". That would doubtless please those who question medicine's claim to be a science.

ETA: OMG, [url=http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&source=hp&ie=UTF8&q=medical+arts+buildi...'s still there!![/color][/url]

Thu, 2009-10-29 09:22

#132

Boom Boom

There's a Medical Arts Building also in Ottawa, near the Civic Hospital I think, or at least there used to be. These were common building names when I was growing up.

Thu, 2009-10-29 09:50

#133

siamdave

There are a couple of interesting discussions going on elsewhere concerning indoctrination, or at least potentially interesting, as this is a pretty serious thing but there is a lot of 'no way not me!!!' kneejerk sort of reaction stuff which doesn't advance the conversation much. Over the last few months, there has been a massive media promotion of the H1N1 stuff, and ongoing - no 'debate' or anything, no putting this into the context of previous scares which fizzled or various other things that might shine a different sort of light on all this hype, just a monolog of the terrible danger, the great vaccination to save us all, it's your duty citizen not to spread this terrible thing, etc etc etc. Would it just be some crazy conspiracy theory to think there might be any connection? Or maybe mmphosis (great lemming cartoon, guy) and maybe Fidel and I should just go and have a beer and leave you folks alone ... I'm a little reminded of a certain kookaid situation a lot of years ago. Somewhere in here, for me, is sort of a guiding principle - do I trust my government and media or not? I don't suppose I have to spell out the answer, and it would appear this is kind of the dividing line in things like this ...

Thu, 2009-10-29 10:05

#134

pogge

siamdave wrote:

Over the last few months, there has been a massive media promotion of the H1N1 stuff, and ongoing - no 'debate' or anything, no putting this into the context of previous scares which fizzled or various other things that might shine a different sort of light on all this hype, just a monolog of the terrible danger, the great vaccination to save us all, it's your duty citizen not to spread this terrible thing, etc etc etc.

Maybe you've just been hanging out in the wrong places. I could certainly criticize much of the media coverage I've seen as being shallow and ill-informed. But I've also seen differences of opinion and debate. I've seen people with their hair on fire and people asking what all the fuss is about. And going beyond the trad media, I've seen all kinds of debate and attempts to put this in perspective. I was on a break from this place until recently so I don't know what was happening here, but if it wasn't happening here don't assume it wasn't happening anywhere.

Thu, 2009-10-29 10:30

#135

siamdave

pogge wrote:

just been hanging out in the wrong places. I could certainly criticize much of the media coverage I've seen as being shallow and ill-informed. But I've also seen differences of opinion and debate. I've seen people with their hair on fire and people asking what all the fuss is about. And going beyond the trad media, I've seen all kinds of debate and attempts to put this in perspective. I was on a break from this place until recently so I don't know what was happening here, but if it wasn't happening here don't assume it wasn't happening anywhere.

- wasn't quite clear, I guess - certainly over many 'alt' media sites there has been all kinds of questioning of the H1N1 story - but in the mainstream Canadian media that I have seen, including (sadly) the CBC (one notable exception on Enright last Sunday), although the very odd questioning voice has been allowed a bit of time, the great amount (easily 90%+) has just been pushing the hype I noted ...

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:05

#136

Tigana

siamdave wrote:

Or maybe mmphosis (great lemming cartoon, guy) and maybe Fidel and I should just go and have a beer and leave you folks alone ... I'm a little reminded of a certain kookaid situation a lot of years ago. Somewhere in here, for me, is sort of a guiding principle - do I trust my government and media or not? I don't suppose I have to spell out the answer, and it would appear this is kind of the dividing line in things like this ...

Do we trust government and media?

UK: Changes in mental health act

http://alturl.com/x9v9

The SPP is not gone - just rebranded - and the plan goes on

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/The-North-American-Leaders-Summit/

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=109347

Where's the pub, Siamdave?

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:13

#137

pogge

Tigana wrote:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=109347

Do you trust [url=http://mediamatters.org/research/200408060010]Jerome Corsi[/url]?

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:15

#138

ElizaQ

never mind....

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:20

#139

siamdave

ElizaQ wrote:

Well I as sure as hell ain't gonna trust World New s Daily and Jerome Corsi to provide any sort of truthful information. Crikey. What board am I actually reading right now... it's like a rip is happening in the space time continum or something.

- the MSM is not a lot more reliable in things of real importance (free trade will be wonderful!!, Saddam has WMD and we need to invade because he plans to use them very soon!!, we're invading Afghanistan to Bring Democracy and Free the Women Yea!!!!, etc)??? - there are a lot of net sites out there that have pretty reasonable commentary on the events that are happening in our world - sites that talk about a lot of things the MSM does not appear to want to put in their papers, or tv/radio shows, etc ...

- sure there's lots of BS on the net - just as there is in the MSM - which is why we need to really start thinking for ourselves, and questioning everything, rather than just believing what ANYbody tells you - listen to all, think for yourself, and come to your own deciisions ... (and try to remember, just because you hear something a lot, such as something the MSM/gov/anyone esle wants to sell you - that does not make it true .....)

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:33

#140

ElizaQ

Siamdave. I mostly agree and have followed that general philosophy for years and it's through such discerning that my opinion on those particular sources has been formed. Sorry but whatever ever kernals of 'truth' might be apparent in things that they generally post or think in terms of people like Corsi have been so full of bullshit, exageration, information manipulation, propoganda, downright lies and political agenda that screams obvious, that it makes any discerning of those kernals way beyond the effort needed to dig them out.

Yes the internet is full of bullshit and that 'news' site and people like Corsi are major purveyors of it.

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:50

#141

oldgoat

Well here's another thread I should have closed ages ago. It's too bad we can't discuss something like the flu going around without descending into such acrimony and rancor.

For future reference, people are entitled to their own opinions about their own medical care. No one should post expecting others to agree with their own opinion. Such opinions may be very personal and strongly held, but as long as one holds them just insofar as they impact on themselves, it is at least bad manners to attack them.

I'm for the most part western medical model when it comes to my physical health. For the most part. For mental health not so much. I have family members who would use Reiki as a first response. A respected colleague of mine is a practitioner of Pranic healing. We all get along well and respect each others positions. As a mental health worker, I daily shake my head at the practices of big pharma, while sometimes being grateful for their products.

Bottom line is, there were disrespectful comments made here from both sides of the isle, and the same discussion could have been made without them.

I'm still glad I got my flu shot, and I'm feeling much better today thankyou.

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