Quebec has right to force immigrants to learn French, says NDP...

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Wed, 2009-10-28 23:44

Machjo

http://www.ledevoir.com/2009/10/28/273982.html

And I happen to agree with the thrust of the article.

For those unfamiliar with the issue, Quebec has decided that children who go to private English-medium schools will no longer necessarily be allowed to then transfer to public English-medium schools, since the government will no longer recognize time spent in such schools in deciding whether a significant enough time has been spent in private English-medium school to warrant allowing them attend public English-medium schools.

The Supreme Court has struck it down, but now the NDP and even some Liberals such as Trudeau are backing Quebec on this and want a vote on it in Parliament.

Personally, I agree with this move since it will help promote a more culturally unified Quebec; though I'd like to see an exception made for local indigenous languages. Other than that, I think such a move is definitely a step in the right direction.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:19

Fidel

But as the case for one public school system goes for saving money and equal and fair treatment in education, why not one language, too? Why can't everyone just speak American?

Or does culture and language have some sort of instrinsic worth difficult to assign dollar values to?

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:19

Infosaturated

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:27

Machjo

Fidel wrote:

But as the case for one public school system goes for saving money and equal and fair treatment in education, why not one language, too? Why can't everyone just speak American?

Or does culture and language have some sort of instrinsic worth difficult to assign dollar values to?

Actually, I believe the two go hand in hand. By promoting the local language, Quebec is not only saving money by ensuring all share a common language, but helps to maintain the local language too. Of course one flaw in this is that French s no more a local language than is English, and it really ought to be the local indigenous languages and not French that get this treatment, but the principle still stands that a common language saves money and promoting the local language helps maintain the local language, so when we combine the two to maintain a common local language, then it saves money and preserves the local language at the same time.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:29

Machjo

Infosaturated wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

Have you looked up the statistics for Europe? They fare no better than we do as far as bilingualism is concerned, statistically-speaking. And as for language being a political tool in Quebec, where exactly is it not a political tool? Europe has just as many language issues as we do, if not more! perhaps you need to rethink your arguments. English is mainly a language of the elites in Europe as it is in Quebec.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:30

Machjo

I don't agree with the NDP often, and though I can disagree with the details of the NDP's proposal here, I still think it's a step in the right direction. I'm happy to see too that some Liberals support it too.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:34

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:

But as the case for one public school system goes for saving money and equal and fair treatment in education, why not one language, too? Why can't everyone just speak American?

Or does culture and language have some sort of instrinsic worth difficult to assign dollar values to?

Culture resides in language. Quebec has a rich cultural heritage rooted in language and language has also served to protect Quebec culture which has remained unique, or at least has retained unique characteristics.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:47

Infosaturated

Machjo wrote:
Have you looked up the statistics for Europe? They fare no better than we do as far as bilingualism is concerned, statistically-speaking. And as for language being a political tool in Quebec, where exactly is it not a political tool? Europe has just as many language issues as we do, if not more! perhaps you need to rethink your arguments. English is mainly a language of the elites in Europe as it is in Quebec.

That would seem to me all the more reason to support the rights of people to have access to English education for their children even if they are not part of the elite.

Also, part of my point is that dealing with only two languages, English and French, is not that complicated. To be unable to speak English in North America is a severe handicap.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:48

Fidel

Infosaturated wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

So English is a kind of imperialist language? But what's happened to the designated imperial languages of history? At one time it was good to speak Persian or Egyptian or Roman. Stuff happens and things change. Why limit ourselves to one set of rules for expression now? Why should we conform to one way of thinking now instead of embracing diversity and appreciate other cultures? We're already killing off various species of living things now as it is with our one size fits all globalizing capitalist system now breaking down and falling apart all over the news channels and newspaper headlines. In my opinion, uniform and widgetized people speaking a widgetized language would only add to the dullness and greyness of the present imperialist system falling down around our ears. Perhaps the capitalists and neoliberal accountants and banksters themselves should do everyone a favour and throw themselves into a melting pot. Let's boil them down to an Irish stew and raffle off the jars as a door prize fundraiser for the poor and homeless who couldnt care less what language people speak or how much public education costs since the new liberal financial regime got underway in Canada since Mulroney.

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:55

#10

Unionist

Infosaturated wrote:

To be unable to speak English in North America is a severe handicap.

Kinda like being non-white, eh?

Thanks for your generous advice as to how Quebeckers can get along in "North America". Would that apply to Mexicans also?

Thu, 2009-10-29 00:59

#11

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

So English is a kind of imperialist language? But what's happened to the designated imperial languages of history? At one time it was good to speak Persian or Egyptian or Roman. Stuff happens and things change. Why limit ourselves to one set of rules for expression now? Why should we conform to one way of thinking now instead of embracing diversity and appreciate other cultures?

Since when is learning one language rather than two languages embracing diversity? I would think learning two languages is embracing diversity not one. This isn't just about immigrants. French families have been fighting for the right to have English education for their children. Because I was educated in English in Quebec I had the choice between sending my daughter to either English or French school. French people have no such right. Furthermore, French schools by law are not allowed to teach English before 3rd grade (unless it changed and I didn't hear about it).

My vote is for one school system in which all children learn in French and English.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:07

#12

Machjo

Unionist wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:

To be unable to speak English in North America is a severe handicap.

Kinda like being non-white, eh?

Thanks for your generous advice as to how Quebeckers can get along in "North America". Would that apply to Mexicans also?

I agree with your sentiment here. The only language that ever ought to be granted any special legal status is the local indigenous language and none other. The next best thing is to at least establish a common language so that the local indigenous communities need only learn their language and the common one, rather than being drowned in languages to learn. That is the main reason I support the NDP on this.

And the idea that we should all bow to English is just pure imperialism. Yes, I'm all for bilingualism, but why does English necessarily have to play a role in that. For example, would Cree and French not count as being just as legitimately bilingual as English and French?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:13

#13

Infosaturated

Unionist wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:

To be unable to speak English in North America is a severe handicap.

Kinda like being non-white, eh?

Thanks for your generous advice as to how Quebeckers can get along in "North America". Would that apply to Mexicans also?

I don't see what language has to do with colour. Although I am anglophone I have family that is unilingual French. My ancestry is mixed Acadian, French and First Nations with the French part dating back to 1604. I have First Nations and French on both sides of my family.

My cousins went to Maine and had to phone Montreal to get someone to talk to the mechanic when their car broke down. Those of my relatives that speak no English rarely leave the province and when they do it's usually to visit other relatives in New Brunswick.

It's all very well for the elites to pontificate over who should have the right to make educational choices because they have those choices through sending their children to private schools for their entire education. They certainly don't want the riff-raff to have equal access to education.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:13

#14

Machjo

Infosaturated wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

So English is a kind of imperialist language? But what's happened to the designated imperial languages of history? At one time it was good to speak Persian or Egyptian or Roman. Stuff happens and things change. Why limit ourselves to one set of rules for expression now? Why should we conform to one way of thinking now instead of embracing diversity and appreciate other cultures?

Since when is learning one language rather than two languages embracing diversity? I would think learning two languages is embracing diversity not one. This isn't just about immigrants. French families have been fighting for the right to have English education for their children. Because I was educated in English in Quebec I had the choice between sending my daughter to either English or French school. French people have no such right. Furthermore, French schools by law are not allowed to teach English before 3rd grade (unless it changed and I didn't hear about it).

My vote is for one school system in which all children learn in French and English.

I see a few problems here. For one thing, the idea of 'freedom' to learn English is somewhat of a false freedom in that parents feel the pressure to have their children learn the continental hegemonic language to compete. Naturally without controls, this would equate to the gradual assimilation of the whole continent to English and the marginalization of those who fail to learn it. Instead, why not put an end to English-language hegemony so as to give real freedom in language learning?

On the other hand, I also see the problem with the lack of a common language in the modern world. One possibility would be to adopt a common second language that is much easier to learn and thus not so elitist as English. This way, we could all learn our first language, the common second language, and then still have plenty of free time left to learn whatever language we wanted after that.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:21

#15

Fidel

Infosaturated wrote:
My vote is for one school system in which all children learn in French and English.

What about a one-size fits all secular education system for all no matter where they come from or what religious background they've brought with them along with their rich and diverse cultures, mores and language skills? I think it would be cheaper, and duller, and greyer than what we have now for sure.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:40

#16

Infosaturated

Machjo wrote:
I agree with your sentiment here. The only language that ever ought to be granted any special legal status is the local indigenous language and none other. The next best thing is to at least establish a common language so that the local indigenous communities need only learn their language and the common one, rather than being drowned in languages to learn. That is the main reason I support the NDP on this.

And the idea that we should all bow to English is just pure imperialism. Yes, I'm all for bilingualism, but why does English necessarily have to play a role in that. For example, would Cree and French not count as being just as legitimately bilingual as English and French?

The Mohawk are mostly English/Mohawk not French/Mohawk. Maybe it's just me, but I think the function of the school system should be to equip children with knowledge that broaden their opportunities and enriches their lives as adults.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:43

#17

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:
My vote is for one school system in which all children learn in French and English.

What about a one-size fits all secular education system for all no matter where they come from or what religious background they've brought with them along with their rich and diverse cultures, mores and language skills? I think it would be cheaper, and duller, and greyer than what we have now for sure.

Have you not been arguing that all children should have to attend unilingual French schools?

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:54

#18

Fidel

Infosaturated wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:
My vote is for one school system in which all children learn in French and English.

What about a one-size fits all secular education system for all no matter where they come from or what religious background they've brought with them along with their rich and diverse cultures, mores and language skills? I think it would be cheaper, and duller, and greyer than what we have now for sure.

Have you not been arguing that all children should have to attend unilingual French schools?

No. And, why do you ask? Have you been arguing for a one size-fits all secular public education system? Because for one thing, I don't think we should be pushing our stooges toward one size fits all efficiency measures in order that they can afford to shovel even more corporate welfare to big business and the banks. More money for people less the fat-cat execs and foreign owned fossil fuel companies operating in Bananada. Those guys love it when their hirelings in gov talk gutting and streamlining and efficiency.

Thu, 2009-10-29 01:58

#19

Infosaturated

Machjo wrote:
I see a few problems here. For one thing, the idea of 'freedom' to learn English is somewhat of a false freedom in that parents feel the pressure to have their children learn the continental hegemonic language to compete. Naturally without controls, this would equate to the gradual assimilation of the whole continent to English and the marginalization of those who fail to learn it. Instead, why not put an end to English-language hegemony so as to give real freedom in language learning?

Learning English as a second language need not mean assimilation. Quebec French culture is well-established and laws are in place ensuring the use of French in the work place and on all public signs. Quebec literature, film and media in general is very popular. French people are not in danger of allowing themselves to be assimilated. Trying to prevent them from learning English is paternalistic and colonialist. Very easy for you to say French parents must be controlled as you type on an English message board. Perhaps you should stop using your English to avoid assimilation?

Machjo wrote:
On the other hand, I also see the problem with the lack of a common language in the modern world. One possibility would be to adopt a common second language that is much easier to learn and thus not so elitist as English. This way, we could all learn our first language, the common second language, and then still have plenty of free time left to learn whatever language we wanted after that.

I think denying children access to the dominant language of North America, the language that is an absolute requirement to reach higher levels of professional success, is a means of subjegating them. Dion might be Prime Minister of Canada today had his English been better. He is an eloquent man in French.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:10

#20

Fidel

But at the same time, I agree with the government of Quebec's democratic right to make the decision to protect Francophone culture, and language is a big part of that. They aren't declaring that immigrants can't learn more than one language. Canada's Francophones are very proud of their culture and intend to preserve it from US and other outside pressures to speak American and be more like Americans. Some Canadians are very Americanized by comparison, and our federal governments have encouraged the hollowing out of Canadian culture and identity by US influence on not just our economy but everything else as well.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:14

#21

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:
But as the case for one public school system goes for saving money and equal and fair treatment in education, why not one language, too? Why can't everyone just speak American?

Or does culture and language have some sort of instrinsic worth difficult to assign dollar values to?

Fidel wrote:
No. And, why do you ask? Have you been arguing for a one size-fits all secular public education system? Because for one thing, I don't think we should be pushing our stooges toward one size fits all efficiency measures in order that they can afford to shovel even more corporate welfare to big business and the banks. More money for people less the fat-cat execs and foreign owned fossil fuel companies operating in Bananada. Those guys love it when their hirelings in gov talk gutting and streamlining and efficiency.

The Quebec government wants to prevent people from accessing the English school system through taking one year of English education in private schools. Close to 100% of English schools in Quebec actually teach in French for 50% of the time. The French schools are not allowed to do that. They aren't allowed to teach any English at all before 3rd grade. Even then they are limited to a few hours a week.

And yes, I do believe that the school system should be secular and the public system in Quebec is secular now. Previously part of the reason immigrants chose to go to English schools was because English schools were Protestant and everything else whereas French schools were Catholic and actively taught Catholism. The Protestent schools had a prayer and sang a hymn in the morning but that was it. Might have had some creche type decorations at Christmas but mostly it was all about Santa Claus.

I think that French has given Quebec enormous strength to avoid the assimilation occuring in the rest of Canada but I also have faith in the French people who actively value their heritage. They aren't going to suddenly stop speaking French because they learn some English. To think that they would shows a profound lack of understanding of French Quebec.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:22

#22

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:
But at the same time, I agree with the government of Quebec's democratic right to make the decision to protect Francophone culture, and language is a big part of that. They aren't declaring that immigrants can't learn more than one language. Canada's Francophones are very proud of their culture and intend to preserve it from US and other outside pressures to speak American and be more like Americans. Some Canadians are very Americanized by comparison, and our federal governments have encouraged the hollowing out of Canadian culture and identity by US influence on not just our economy but everything else as well.

So, the rights of the government of Quebec should supercede the rights of the French people of Quebec? Canada's Francophones are so proud of their culture that the government has to make every effort to prevent them from learning English?

I'll go along with that if the French elite are barred from sending their children to English schools too. Why should the elite be allowed to access English schools if the lower classes aren't allowed to?

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:31

#23

Fidel

Infosaturated wrote:
So, the rights of the government of Quebec should supercede the rights of the French people of Quebec? Canada's Francophones are so proud of their culture that the government has to make every effort to prevent them from learning English?

I'll go along with that if the French elite are barred from sending their children to English schools too. Why should the elite be allowed to access English schools if the lower classes aren't allowed to?

The elite will always be able to afford private daycare and private elementary, secondary and post-secondary schools for their children. The elite in most all countries don't consider themselves to be middle-upper or middle-lower class slobovians. Canada's elites are international jet setters who have more in common with billionaire oligarchs in California and Florida and Europe than they could ever make common cause with the underclass in this semi-frozen Puerto Rico.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:42

#24

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:

Infosaturated wrote:
So, the rights of the government of Quebec should supercede the rights of the French people of Quebec? Canada's Francophones are so proud of their culture that the government has to make every effort to prevent them from learning English?

I'll go along with that if the French elite are barred from sending their children to English schools too. Why should the elite be allowed to access English schools if the lower classes aren't allowed to?

The elite will always be able to afford private daycare and private elementary, secondary and post-secondary schools for their children. The elite in most all countries don't consider themselves to be middle-upper or middle-lower class slobovians. Canada's elites are international jet setters who have more in common with billionaire oligarchs in California and Florida and Europe than they could ever make common cause with the underclass in this semi-frozen Puerto Rico.

And yet you support the right of the elite to prevent the French people of Quebec from accessing English lessons for their children, because that's what it amounts to.

I am well-aware that the elite will always be able to afford private daycare etc. for their children. If private schools in Quebec were under the same rules as public schools you would see the elite change their tune rather than have to send their children out of province for their education.

Thu, 2009-10-29 02:53

#25

Fidel

The elite in any western country care little about preserving anything for anybody, just like their friends in US oligarchy who want everyone to speak American in the melting pot, which is looking more like a melting down pot at this point.

Thu, 2009-10-29 10:12

#26

Infosaturated

Fidel wrote:

The elite in any western country care little about preserving anything for anybody, just like their friends in US oligarchy who want everyone to speak American in the melting pot, which is looking more like a melting down pot at this point.

That would make sense if the elite were trying to force Quebeckers to speak English. They aren't. They are trying to prevent them from learning English.

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:32

#27

Machjo

Infosaturated wrote:

Machjo wrote:
I agree with your sentiment here. The only language that ever ought to be granted any special legal status is the local indigenous language and none other. The next best thing is to at least establish a common language so that the local indigenous communities need only learn their language and the common one, rather than being drowned in languages to learn. That is the main reason I support the NDP on this.

And the idea that we should all bow to English is just pure imperialism. Yes, I'm all for bilingualism, but why does English necessarily have to play a role in that. For example, would Cree and French not count as being just as legitimately bilingual as English and French?

The Mohawk are mostly English/Mohawk not French/Mohawk. Maybe it's just me, but I think the function of the school system should be to equip children with knowledge that broaden their opportunities and enriches their lives as adults.

And I'm sure for the Mohawk, their own language is the one they take to heart. English is just a tool for them.

As mentioned above, I agree with the NDP in principle, but not in detail. This is where you're bringing up some of the details.

Ideally, this is what I'd like to see:

1. The government promote Esperanto or some other easy language to be taught as an easy second language in all schools, ad schools being free to teach the first language of their choice, with the common second language being prohibitted from being taught as a first language of course. This would allow everyone to preserve their own language while ensuring a common second language for all while putting all on an equal footing.

2. Considering the state of local indigenous languages, perhaps the government could give those languages some kind of special status to help promote them.

As you can see my views are still radically different from those of the NDP here. However, the idea of streamlining languages so that people are not burdened by having to learn multiple languages I still agree with. As for the Mohawk example, that is a tricky one. One possibility would be to aow them to learn Mohawk and a second language of their choice, and if that is English, so be it. Bear in mind though that in Quebec, many Mohawks who know only English and Mohawk risk being marginalized in teh Quebec economy. Again, the NDP's solution is bust an ugly compromise. I'm still waiting for the day when the root problems will be dealt with , and that has to do with English-language and to a lesser degree French language hegemony worldwide.

Thu, 2009-10-29 11:37

#28

Machjo

Infosaturated wrote:

Machjo wrote:
On the other hand, I also see the problem with the lack of a common language in the modern world. One possibility would be to adopt a common second language that is much easier to learn and thus not so elitist as English. This way, we could all learn our first language, the common second language, and then still have plenty of free time left to learn whatever language we wanted after that.

I think denying children access to the dominant language of North America, the language that is an absolute requirement to reach higher levels of professional success, is a means of subjegating them. Dion might be Prime Minister of Canada today had his English been better. He is an eloquent man in French.

I think an even better solution here would be for Quebec to fight on the international stage. For example, gradually shift the language of aeronautical communications within Quebec to Eperanto or some other neutral language. Same with the official languages of the UN. Quebec could even propose replacing English and French with some such language as Esperanto at the UN. This would leave the UN with Esperanto, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and Arabic. Among those options, any French speaker who aspires to become a diplomat would likely opt for Esperanto since it's so easy.

Quebec could push for something similar in NATO. If we remove English language hegemony on the world stage, then the pressure to learn English would not be so great anymore. And so Dion would not be penalized for not being a language genius. More democratic, don't you think?

Thu, 2009-10-29 12:18

#29

autoworker autoworker's picture

I suppose the NDP wouldn't mind the "Notwithstanding Clause" being used to override other Charter rights.

Thu, 2009-10-29 12:30

#30

Infosaturated

Machjo wrote:
I think an even better solution here would be for Quebec to fight on the international stage. For example, gradually shift the language of aeronautical communications within Quebec to Eperanto or some other neutral language. Same with the official languages of the UN. Quebec could even propose replacing English and French with some such language as Esperanto at the UN. This would leave the UN with Esperanto, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and Arabic. Among those options, any French speaker who aspires to become a diplomat would likely opt for Esperanto since it's so easy.

Quebec could push for something similar in NATO. If we remove English language hegemony on the world stage, then the pressure to learn English would not be so great anymore. And so Dion would not be penalized for not being a language genius. More democratic, don't you think?

I think that is a very idealistic solution. If French children growing up today have to wait until Quebec establishes Esperanto as a defacto worldwide second language before being able to aspire to the position of Prime Minister of Canada they will have to wait until hell freezes over.

Why are you communicating in English on this message board? Do you speak Esperanto?

While it is perfectly legitimate for a state to promote the use of one primary language, in this case French, within a geographical area, it is another thing for that same state to prevent it's citizens from acquiring a second language that reduces their isolation.

The Mohawk, and other First Nations People, are striving hard to preserve their language but English is the language that unites the First Nations people across North America.

For most of my life I have been uneducated and hovered between poverty and lower middle-class. Five years ago I began taking university level classes. I find it quite astonishing how entitled the elites seem to feel in their right to impose their social theories on the less powerful. It is as though those of us not immersed in theory are not capable of determining what is in our own best interests. It must be imposed from above.

That is what is so special about Chavez and his Bolivarian revolution. He promotes his theories heavily, he argues his perspective, but he also empowers his people to make their own decisions.

Thu, 2009-10-29 12:37

#31

Fidel

Infosaturated wrote:

Fidel wrote:

The elite in any western country care little about preserving anything for anybody, just like their friends in US oligarchy who want everyone to speak American in the melting pot, which is looking more like a melting down pot at this point.

That would make sense if the elite were trying to force Quebeckers to speak English. They aren't. They are trying to prevent them from learning English.

So you're saying that inside every Quebecois is an Anglophone yearning to break free? That's interesting.

At one time French was a language spoken by all the blue bloods in Europe. Their servants coudn't understand what royals were saying to their inbred relatives. The rich and powerful were somewhat paranoid of revolutions then. French royalty once considered English kings and queens to be low class slobs who ate with their hands and waged wars at the drop of a hat. The English were always jealous of the grandeur of French courts.

I'm not so sure we ought to be forcing English on emigres who choose to live and work in a French speaking Canadian province. And they most likely realize that Quebecois speak French well before deciding on PQ as a final destination. If emigres must speak English as a personal preference for choosing where to move to, why not choose the UK, NZ, Australia, the US, or even any other province or territory in Canada? In fact, I don't believe Asian or other emigres are coming to PQ with intentions to Anglicize Quebecois. I think that role was the self-appointed task of a group for the preservation of English language in Canada some years ago. I remember reading some of their flyers and news pamphlets they'd drop in my mailbox from time to time. And there were typically several English grammar and spelling mistakes on their printed material.

Thu, 2009-10-29 14:38

#32

Infosaturated

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=81889...

In Laval 2007), the graduation rate from the English system was 78.2% in comparison to the French system which was at 50%.

This, even though the French school system is favored through things such as recieving full text-books on time while the English system is deprived.

http://angryfrenchguy.com/2009/08/18/quebecs-bizarre-segregated-school-s...

According to the English Montreal School Board as many as three out of four primary school students spend most of their schoolday in classes taught in French...

As even the Montreal Gazette reported, the result is technically bilingual kids who don’t know any French people and who are uncomfortable ordering a burger in French at McDonalds...

The students of Westmount's Selwyn House now spend between 50% and 80% of their class time studying in French

In Québec City close to 60% of the students in English schools are Francophones. (through a certificate of eligibility)

On the French side there is growing tension between proponents and opponents to the kind of bilingual programs that have become common on the English side. While there is a lot of demand for them, opponents feel that the French schools’ mission of integrating immigrants into Québec society, especially in Montréal, could be seriously compromised if more English was introduced in the schools.

As a result, many French-speaking families in Montreal are massively abandoning the public school system for private schools that offer, among other things, better English classes.

All this together leads to a profoundly dyslexic school arrangement. Immigrants to Québec are now intergrating themselves into Québec society in schools with no French-speaking Québécois, while Québec Francophones send their children to private schools. Montréal Anglos are building their own parallel French school network with no French students while Francophones in the rest of the province are keeping an English school system alive even though there are no more actual English-speaking students.

The current approach is not working. Preventing parents from accessing the English school system through barring the use of private schools under eligibility rules will do little if anything to change the situation.

The failure of successive Quebec governments to integrate anglophones (who are also Quebecois) and emigres into French social and cultural life is exclusionary and harmful to Quebec as a whole. Attempting to prevent French people from learning English has only served to continue isolating French people, especially in rural areas, which has fostered widespread xenophobia.

French is not cod-liver oil. As you can see, English schools, from public to the best private schools, are putting a heavy emphasis on learning French. Nevertheless the success rates are poor at least in the public schools.

There are far better ways to encourage the flourishing of the French language in Quebec and the inclusion of all citizens of Quebec in the rich social and cultural life of Quebec. Encouraging strife and hostility between citizens is not nation building.

Thu, 2009-10-29 15:32

#33

Unionist

It is amazing to see this nonstop pathetic flood and barrage of attacks on the rights of the Québec people to determine their own national language. The only comfort is that such arrogance towards Quebeckers can have no influence or impact anywhere. Good luck with smearing a people that has broken with its dark past and is intent upon making a progressive and enlightened future.

ETA: Thanks and congrats, Fidel, for upholding democratic principle.

Thu, 2009-10-29 15:42

#34

Unionist

Boom Boom wrote:

Unionist wrote:
It is amazing to see this nonstop pathetic flood and barrage of attacks on the rights of the Québec people to determine their own national language.

It's not so black and white, is it, because the Québec people also includes the English.

I guess you mean the anglophones - I'm one of them, but I'm not "English", thank God. But the anglophones of Québec have reconciled themselves to Bill 101, have learned to speak French (most of them, according to the census), and respect the cultural aspirations of the vast majority of the people of Québec. The same cannot be said of the disgusting and arrogant posts in this thread.

Thu, 2009-10-29 16:36

#35

Infosaturated

Unionist wrote:

It is amazing to see this nonstop pathetic flood and barrage of attacks on the rights of the Québec people to determine their own national language. The only comfort is that such arrogance towards Quebeckers can have no influence or impact anywhere. Good luck with smearing a people that has broken with its dark past and is intent upon making a progressive and enlightened future.

You are not supporting the rights of the Québec people.

Did you miss the part where FRENCH people are being denied rights? Did you miss the part about the massive failure rate in the French school system? Did you miss the part where FRENCH parents are sending their children to private schools that teach more English? Did you miss the part where Engish schools teach 50% or more in French yet are still having difficulty turning out bilingual graduates?

Personally, I am on the side of the French PEOPLE not the Quebec government.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, the Quebec government is not on the side of the Quebec people any more than they are on the side of Quebec unions.

Did you miss the part where xenophobia in rural Quebec is worse than anywhere else in Canada due to isolation and manipulation in the interests of elites?

Shouldn't progressive people explore issues before making knee-jerk pronouncments? Suddenly government and big business is your friend?

Thu, 2009-10-29 16:51

#36

Sean in Ottawa

First of all people can have and share their opinions about what is best for Quebec-- that would be a freedom of expression. The problem is context: that context is one where Quebec entered confederation in an arrangement that allows them (and every province) exclusive control over education so the issue of what is better or not for Quebec with respect to education is theirs alone-- this separates to some degree those people posting from Quebec who are part of the society with the choice from onlookers who can have an opinion but lack the authority for that opinion to mean anything. So we should at least accept that this is a matter for Quebecois to decide. I no longer live in Quebec so my opinion is that of an observer only and I do not imagine that they have any reason to regard my opinion as compelling.

The issue we are speaking about is one of social justice and economics more than language. The law was written many years ago and it is based on an intent to allow those who went to public lower schools to go on to middle school in the same language or into the system in English if a parent was educated in English. This is all old news. Unfortunately however the law was poorly written and allowed a loophole whereby people with extra means could use the private system to get a right to bring back to the public system. In other words pay for an additional right to be delivered in the public system that they would otherwise not have. This is offensive on too many levels and I am pleased the province of Quebec is moving to close what is clearly an unfortunate and unintended loophole. Everyone else is getting into knots trying to make this a political issue when it ought not to be.

The issue of who can attend public schools in Quebec, assuming that is going to be decided based on the person's background as it has been in the past, should be based on their public background not purchased private background. Otherwise we are enshrining additional public rights for people who can and want to buy them. This creates a two-tier public system. So, as long as the rest of the legislation remains in place this change is necessary and reasonable.

As for the rest of the legislation, as I say it is old news but it is not without merit. From a public policy perspective, the government of Quebec is recognizing that the only way to ensure French as the language of Quebec is to make sure people are educated in that language and it will pay to provide that. The government also recognizes that English is fairly easy to acquire for those who want it and does not consider it necessary to invest in that. I can't disagree, Quebec has a remarkably high number of functionally bilingual people who went through the French language education system and has many priorities to consider when deciding how to invest its money and how to direct its culture.As far as the Charter-- I am not convinced that this is a Charter issue as the learning of the English language is not banned and nobody is being prevented from getting an education. The province is determining who it will pay to educate in English and doing so based on fair means.

Frankly as a French speaking island in North America, I think Quebec is doing a wonderful job as it is not only keeping alive its culture it is supporting it on many levels. Quebecois culture in many respects is healthier than English Canadian culture so they have little if anything to learn from English Canada in that regard. Quebec has had chronic unemployment going back over many years but has improved that and developed one of the most dynamic small business classes in Canada. As well, the number of significant business enterprises in Quebec that are actually owned there is a major achievement that could make much of the rest of Canada green with envy. All in all we are speaking of a successful society that appears to be doing better and better. News this week is that Quebec is weathering the recession better than the rest of the country.

As well- those who say that Quebec is stopping people from learning English don't understand either the legislation or the reality-- you can learn English that is not illegal or even discouraged. You can even take private lessons in English if you wish. You can go to private school in English. However the province will not allow you to transfer back to public school in English if you have not gone to public school in a lower grade / your parents have not been educated in English in Quebec. This change restores a social justice to the legislation.

If the NDP fought for the loophole to remain it would be fighting for a system that forces the public system to provide additional rights to people who have had the money to attend a private school and buy them. I'd be furious with them if they did that.

Thu, 2009-10-29 16:55

#37

Sean in Ottawa

Infosaturated wrote:

Did you miss the part where xenophobia in rural Quebec is worse than anywhere else in Canada due to isolation and manipulation in the interests of elites?

Evidence please-- I think it's alive and well across Canada although perhaps not as newsworthy elsewhere.

If you are on the side of French people-- great there will be celebrations in Paris. Leave Quebec out of it.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:02

#38

Unionist

Sean, if you value your equanimity, don't engage in debate with this anti-Québec crap. This is baiting and provocation of the lowest kind which should be shunned on a progressive board. Perhaps one day the moderators here will grasp that truth and act upon it.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:13

#39

Sean in Ottawa

Then why did you post replies in this thread? I assume it is because if we don't then there will be an impression that we either agree or don't care. there are also a large number of ignorant people that are reached by facts-- I don't care to speculate which of those posting fall in to that but some may be more ignorant than hateful.

Not sure about what should be shunned and driven underground and what should be called out and exposed as false. Again that depends on the motives of the people holding these opinions. I choose to assume ignorance is driving this more than hate and unchecked ignorance breeds hate so I'd prefer to participate in trying to nip it in the bud where I can. But I do get your point and your frustration.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:17

#40

Unionist

Ok Sean, I agree. That's the problem with threads like this. If you don't respond, some may think that Québec bashing is acceptable. I just meant that we should find a way to avoid Þhe level of discussion being lowered to the basest level. But I guess that's the job of the moderators.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:33

#41

Infosaturated

I live in Quebec. I have relatives that are unilingual French. Unionist, your responses to me are ignorant and elitist.

Should the ability to buy education enable one to escape French language laws? If not, then private schools should be subject to the same language laws as public schools. That is, they should also have to teach in French and restrict the number of hours of TESL. Being private should not exempt them from Education laws.

There are many ways to successfully promote the use of a language and successful teaching methodologies that could vastly improve the ability of Quebeckers to improve their mastery of French.

The issue isn't whether or not French should be the primary language of Quebec. It is and it should be and it is a valuable asset to Quebecker's that French retains it's place and continues to grow.

French is not cod-liver oil. Quebec culture is vibrant and those who are unable to access it are poorer for that loss.

The question is what are the best means of achieving the goal of safe-guarding and growing the language and culture of Quebec.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:37

#42

Fidel

InfoSaturated likes sex and travel, I can tell.

Thu, 2009-10-29 17:37

#43

Infosaturated

edited to remove a rude response

Thu, 2009-10-29 18:14

#44

Sean in Ottawa

Infosaturated wrote:

Should the ability to buy education enable one to escape French language laws? If not, then private schools should be subject to the same language laws as public schools. That is, they should also have to teach in French and restrict the number of hours of TESL. Being private should not exempt them from Education laws.

Why should they have to match perfectly? The state provides a basic education and pays for it. If you want something other than what the state provides you can go buy it-- this is true about many types of private schools across the country including minority languages and religions. To stop people from buying that extra would be a substantial restriction. However, what this does is at least stop people who have bought those extras from bringing back a right for use in the public system. Effectively, you can go in or out of the public system but you can't be treated differently in the public system because you have been in a private system. That's the purpose of the legislation being discussed here.

The comment about Unionist is bizarre-- not only do I see nothing elitist from unionist here I have never seen anything like that in any other thread from unionist--

Thu, 2009-10-29 19:30

#45

Unionist

Fidel wrote:

InfoSaturated likes sex and travel, I can tell.

Fidel, sometimes your responses are positively brilliant! Thank you for capturing my thought so precisely.

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:11

#46

Fidel

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:14

#47

Infosaturated

http://demographymatters.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-concentration-of-quebec...

Together, children who speak Arabic, Spanish, Italian, Creole, Chinese, Tamil, Vietnamese, Bengali, and dozens of other languages now form 39.5% of the student population in Montréal, while Francophones form 39% and Anglophones 21.5%.

At the same time, regions outside of Montréal often experience population decline owing to low cohort fertility and sustained out-migration. As an example, the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region in north-central Québec, ethnically very homogeneous and only
opened to settlement in the late 19th century, has seen sustained net out-migration for at least the past two decades.

Immigrants are not choosing the English school system in significant numbers. They are still overwhelmingly in the French school system. The English school system is continuing to shrink with more school closures every year while the French public system is growing and struggling to cope.

French public schools are massively failing their students. A 50% drop out/failure rate (Laval) is appalling would you not agree?

While English schools have a lower rate of failure, 28% as opposed to 50%, it is still bad.

English students taking 50% of their education in French are still graduating without a working knowledge of French although they are more bilingual than their French counterparts.

This would seem to be widespread failure within the school system both in general education and in the promotion of French.

While bringing immigrants into the French system rather than the English system was and is a necessity to maintain the French majority the outcome of having done so is having questionable results. There has been an exodus of French families from Montreal. Whether or not that is connected to the situation in schools in terms of cause hasn't been established, but the result is that French Quebeckers are no longer a majority in Montreal.

Worrying about the "loophole" is fiddling while Rome burns. Closing the loophole won't solve the root problem, which is the exodus of French families from Montreal and the inability of French schools to successfully absorb and educate the immigrants already going to those schools.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=8af3c4eb-5bc7-4...

What Premier Jean Charest continued to call the "isolated case" of Herouxville and its rules for immigrants appeared to be spreading in scope and notoriety yesterday.

At least five neighbouring municipalities said that they are looking into adopting similar codes.

The above is old news, but the nationalism that engenders the attitude isn't. There aren't even any immigrants in those places. French has never been threatened in Quebec as a whole. The only signficant concentration of English people was always in Montreal (and in the Eastern Townships to a lessor extent). The nationalistic demonization of immigrants along with anglophones and Montreal is at the root of the xenophobia.

Other laws concerning the language of work in Quebec and the French face of Quebec in terms of signage have been very successful in defending and promoting the rights of people to work in French and in protecting the primacy of French within the province.

Quebeckers have been encouraged to be highly nationalistic. Levesque blamed the failure of the referendum on immigrants as well as anglophones. "Real" Quebecers are losing power year after year as immigrants, not anglophones, become an ever increasing portion of the population. There is enormous resentment against immigrants outside of Montreal, against anglophones too but French people are used to a limited presence of anglophones.

Quebec is caught between a rock and a hard place. Demographically Quebec needs immigrants as the Quebec population is falling vis a vis the rest of Canada resulting in decreased power.

Montreal is the undisputed economic engine of Quebec yet nationlistic resentment of Montreal based on the presence of anglophones and now immigrants undermines Montreal's ability to develop as it should.

Focusing on the false threat of an insignificant number of parents using the "loop hole" to enter the English school system is detracting from the very real problems facing Quebec.

In Montreal, we all get along quite well. There is the occasional horror story of a bus driver being rude to an anglophone but over all we live together very happily, French, English and immigrants. It is the politicians constantly drumming up hostilities between groups and against Montreal that are the problem.

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:25

#48

Infosaturated

...

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:29

#49

Michelle

Unionist wrote:
Ok Sean, I agree. That's the problem with threads like this. If you don't respond, some may think that Québec bashing is acceptable. I just meant that we should find a way to avoid Þhe level of discussion being lowered to the basest level. But I guess that's the job of the moderators.

Unionist, instead of talking about how no one should post in the thread and should ignore the thread, how about just doing so if you don't like the thread?

Sorry, but I'm not shutting down this conversation just because you don't like it or don't agree with it. I know this is a touchy subject for you, and that's fine, but there is more than one point of view on it, and no one is "bashing" anyone. They're discussing a matter of public policy.

I won't be shutting down the thread, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop characterizing the posts in it as "disgusting" and interjecting requests to other people to "ignore" the thread. People who want to ignore it will ignore it. People who want to post in it will post in it.

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:31

#50

Michelle

Fidel wrote:

InfoSaturated likes sex and travel, I can tell.

This is sexist and out of line. Cut it out.

Thu, 2009-10-29 20:31

#51

Infosaturated

double post

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