Are there other sex workers/adult entertainers who enjoy their jobs?

CookiesNScream wrote:

Exscuse me if this seems out of line, but are 'abolishinists' angry because men can order sex and adult entertainment as easy as it would be to order a pizza?

Hi all, My first post. It is my opinion that abolitionists are just especially attached to a particular societal model that they see threatened by a different lifestyle choice.
Thoughout most of our evolutionary history, we primates have have lived in a hostile environment. The females were generally smaller & the males larger & quite capable of acting violently. One survival technique is for the female to form a monogamous relationship with a male of sufficient status to protect her and her offspring in return for the (assumed) paternity of their children. this model works well for a large percentage of the group, but eventually one runs out of males that have sufficient status to meet the protection clause of the contract. Thus a second survival technique can come into play. That is where a female exchanges sex for short-term gain / protection and to confuse the paternity of her offspring to minimize the chances of them being attacked by adult males. These females, of course, are subject to physical attack from the higher status females in the group which see them as a threat to their own chosen lifestyle. These interactions are seen in studies of our closest relations, chimpanzees & bonobos.
This kind of evolutionary adaptation is pretty hard-wired into our brains. While we humans have built a sophisticated society & are a long way from our primeval past, a lot of our reactions of jelousy & rage to infidelity come straight from that primitive part of our brains. Prostitutes are taking resources away from the man's spouse & family. People who have a lot invested in the monogamous society model will react as thet see the existence of prostitution as a threat to the security of their own relationships.

I think that some abolitionists cannot accept the fact that many sex workers can be and are feminists.  Unfortunately, sometimes ideologists have strict rules of behaviour for inclusion, and the fact that any woman could choose and benefit personally, financially or spiritually from sex work goes against the "rules".   When those who are affectionately referred to as "femi-nazis" try to include and accept ALL women, become a wee bit more open minded and open hearted, then they might learn something valuable that will actually enrich their lives.   It is frightening, in a way, that they do not see it as trying to control women's rights to choose, exactly the same way as any Taliban fundamentalist or anti-abortionist or right wing Christian group tries to do exactly the same thing.

They do not work in the industry in any capacity, yet they are full of contempt for the ones who either do the work or use the services.  A service, btw, which is legal under Canadian law.  Everyone so concerned about "pimps" which account for maybe less than 1% of the people who profit from sex work.  What about the cities who issue business and escort licenses for thousands of dollars more than for any other business operating in their city, Revenue Canada who collects the taxes, hotels where the work takes place, newspapers who advertise the services, the yellow pages as well, countless websites who charge advertising fees, the website hosts because believe it or not at least 80% of Canadian sex workers have online presence and spend large amount of money in promotion.   And more. 

These people need to get their heads out of their sand box and take a look at what is really going on in this world, and what is really going on is that street work, the one thing most commonly seen, is only one piece of sex work.   Most sex workers make thousands of dollars a week, and I highly doubt anyone of them would allow themselves to be "saved" from that.

A dixie cup Remind? Wouldn't Grocery Gateway (a online grocery delivery service in Toronto) be a better analogy than dixie cup?

martin dufresne wrote:

Aaaah, PeaceGuy.... and how would that explain that most radical feminists - no friends of the monogamous society model - and many lesbians are abolitionists? Some primate behaviour models don't translate so well in human agency.

One has to remember that humans are primates, but yes, studies of other animals can only be taken so far when comparing with our species of animal. Fanatics of all sorts (religious, political & social like feminists) can also have world views and aspirations that they see as threatened by the lifestyle choices of prostitutes.  It's clear that people who fanatical hold a philosophical viewpoint are generally inflexible and often value things differently & thus often appear irrational and illogical to others.  Given that we hear about religious radicals that act a suicide bombers, political radicals that deny that the president of the United States was born in that country & some radical feminists that can decry the choice of some women to give up their careers to raise their children, it's clear that fanatics have an enormous blind spot when it comes to dispassionately examining things that touch on their beliefs.

If one holds a fanatical view that our society is a patriachy in which all men strive to oppress and / or exploit women; that this is a zero sum game where one person's gain is another's loss, it is probably difficult for them to accept that a prostitute can ever be the one holding power in the relationship with a john; setting the terms, the price, access, and exploiting his base desires.

Peaceguy wrote:

If one holds a fanatical view that our society is a patriachy in which all men strive to oppress and / or exploit women; that this is a zero sum game where one person's gain is another's loss,

wow, if only it could be so simple...I think it is pretty fanatical for people to think that somehow a leisure time ejaculatory response is so special that it requires no laws...

Quote:

it is probably difficult for them to accept that a prostitute can ever be the one holding power in the relationship with a john; setting the terms, the price, access, and exploiting his base desires.

Don't care about this aspect at  all, let alone have difficulty accepting it, it factors so little into the equation, if you mean me as one of the 'them'.

In fact, it is not even pertinent to the discussion. As a prostitute, according to the definitions, in other threads,  as explained  to us by those who have lived experiences, on both sides of the debate, in a moment of  unified perceptions agreed that:

Prostitutes are prostituted people, they are in a submissive and exploited position...there through no choice of their own... thus they cannot withhold access, nor set rates, let alone terms.

....these are the majority of those... convenience store vaginas, are purchased for leisure time ejaculatory responses. Afterall, why by a magazine, when you can have the real thing just a cheaply, and still throw it away, and get a new one next time?

There is a posiive upside to this though, if men are no longer buying magazines to ejaculate into, they will no longer know what designer vaginas look like, and thus the plastic surgery demand will go down...for vagina tucks.

Except of course for those men who vaginas to look "innocent", and well.....on to another aspects...

Apparetly, sex workers are those, of whom you refer, when  you say there are those exploiting men's  pocket books and base desires....

...for myself, I think that is taking the leisure seeker of out of the equation, or painting him as..wellll.....nothing good as there is always a consumer, when capitalism is involved.

Which might offend some men, but I leave that to them to be offended or not....

..... as I am  grappling with sex workers being painted as the villianesses, out to rob poor johns of their money and denying access,  they are sounding suspiciously like how some wives are portrayed by husbands, to keep patriarchial privilege, alive and well.

...and am  still shocked that you say "base desires", I thought there was either; personal taste desires, instant gratification weaknesses, or power and control issues going on.

And now I hear it is "base desires" going on....

hmmm....I do not ascribe morality cliches to  personal sexual preferences, at any given point in time, unless it involves non-conscent,  exploitation or pedophilia...and no actually not then either, when thinking further, as I look at it more clinically, to find ways to change it and lessen impacts on people and society.

Remind, apparently you are not selling sex, therefor no need for you yo make this personal. Really and honestly.

Um fortunate?  No.  Women and feminists do NOT get referred to as "femi-nazis" on this site.  Not in quotes, not in jest, not at all.  Don't even go there.

Post #6 is the one I was referring to, remind.

fortunate wrote:

When those who are affectionately referred to as "femi-nazis" try to include and accept ALL women, become a wee bit more open minded and open hearted, then they might learn something valuable that will actually enrich their lives.   It is frightening, in a way, that they do not see it as trying to control women's rights to choose, exactly the same way as any Taliban fundamentalist or anti-abortionist or right wing Christian group tries to do exactly the same thing.

Thanks, michelle, I never read said post, as I had read one from said person in another thread, and addressed inappropriate sexism and labelling there, wasn't going to bother reading any more.

And thank you for challenging that too....

Expression without nazifying honestly held disagreements would seem more conducive to open dialogue from all sides.

Feminazi is an undescriptive and ahistorical term. There are better ones for either side in this debate to use.

I have used feminazi in another thread before I read this and saw how offended some are by it.  I'd like to know why people are allowed to use the term "prostituted" then?  I am very offended by the use of that term.  If Trisha Baptie would like to consider herself a prostituted victim, so be it.  If someone wants to call themselves a feminazi, in the same way, go ahead.  I will agree to us not offending each other.  When i use the term "feminazi", I am referring to feminists who oppress other women in the name of feminism.  I consider myself a feminist and feel compelled to differentiate between feminists like myself, and the others who try to control and silence me.

Quote:

but are 'abolishinists' angry because men can order sex and adult entertainment as easy as it would be to order a pizza?

This is equivalent to infering jealousy or spite in my view,  if not exactly, and most certainly we would not want the discussion going down those republican thought terminating cliche ways, would we?

I say this because, not only does it mirror what the USA used to say to people, when they took exception to their inhumane actions...

...it also mirrors the old  phoney tripe about feminists,

which went like;  "they  are all just a bunch of fat, saggy titted,  hairy leg women,  with whiskers on their chin, who could not get a man". Or even it could be likened to the other blamming and guilt trigger, of the "figid" woman label.

so...really... making that type of false and stigmatizing  type of label, is distasteful, at best.

Beyond that, I have a real issue of likening the purchase of sexual access to a mucous membrane, to the purchase of pizza, but  I think people who are rational can clearly see  for themselves that it is an inappropriate objectification, and an inaccurate depiction of what is really occuring in most cases.

My vagina is not a pizza, just as my partner's penis is not bologna. Neither of our anuses, are dixie cups.

Using once and throwing away is not environmentally friendly, nor sustainable.

Other than that, welcome, I like a bit of "other" stuff, myself.

remind wrote:

Prostitutes are prostituted people, they are in a submissive and exploited position...there through no choice of their own... thus they cannot withhold access, nor set rates, let alone terms.

you have now got 4 workers saying different.....i am a sex worker.i have choice, i can with hold access and do. i do set the rates and the terms of the encounter. period.

please do not cast all sex workers as victims with no choice or agency. it simply is not true and it contributes to our harm making us appear as damaged goods, disposable,less.

if you want to talk about these issues seriously you must try to start listening to what we are saying and respect our choices and autonomy as human beings.

especially if you support, as you claim, decriminalizing sex workers- not customers but workers-

it is extremely offensive to us to be called prostitutes or prostituted people. please respect that you are harming us by insisting on using such terms. i understand some ex workers support the term as reflecting their experience.

this thread was started by a sex worker who identifies as a sex worker. if you want to start a thread about prostituted people, please do so but allow sex workers respect and safety to express themseleves by using the terms we have adopted to describe our experiences when engaged in discussions with us. i will repsect threads started by prostituted people and use terms they have adopted, please .....show a little respect.

remind wrote:

...not a chance in hell,  is femi-nazis going to be used here unless they are going to start allowing comments of equal equivalency to be used against you, and your allies, who actually are not  front sex workers,  just cheerleaders.

 

If  anyone thinks they can tell me, that I must respect a john's right to call me a feminazi,  in order to empower  sex workers, you are  mistaken.

now i am just a cheerleader? wow your insults are getting worse. i am a frontline sex worker....what the hell does that mean anyway? are you trying to describe survival sex workers, street sex workers?

i worked on the street, was almost killed,pimped, lived in the DTES hotels. once again you are using your own language to describe something about which you have no lived experience. please respect terms that sex workers themselves have adopted to describe our experiences.

my experiences are hardly comparable to a cheerleader.....nice try though. even in the face of more workers supporting choice you choose to ingore and try to diminish their voices.

i know it's hard to admit i may be right and may actually know my community but it's true. try to refrain from belittling us remind.it's really taxing and i would hope beneath you.

i invited sex workers here at the request of babblers, here they are. attacking them and the ways in which they express themselves is low and makes me wonder why we should risk engaging with people like you. it is extremely upsetting for us all in particular your mucous membrane, mandatory testing, using our vagina's position. we are people. for you to dimish us in this way is comletely disrespectful. i would think that as a person who is invested in saving prostituted people you would care to listento what they have to say.

unless of course you only care about your own position and to hell with what sex workers actually think. we must get rid of prostitution no matter the cost.

remind wrote:

Annie Temple wrote:

... Exotic dancing was the best job I ever had!  I tried to do straight jobs a few times due to pressure from family members before my voice became strong, and I went GLADLY back to stripping every time.  Now I am a sex industry business owner with nakedtruth.ca.

Exotic dancers are not front line sex workers, nor prostitutes, from what I can gather from those  voices here, who have experienced both. And I also know a couple, and they do not self identify as prostitutes, or sex workers, either.

Nice to see you got a free ad in, most usually have to pay for that privilege

another direct attack. i posted a link to babble on the naked truth.....no charge for that....annie is a former sex industry worker. you do not have the right to diminsh her experinces. the business she owns is a gathering space for sex industry workers. she has worked her ass off to creat space for us to come together as a community.

it is really beginning to become clear to me that you hate us, sex workers i mean. especially workers who donot identify as prostituted or victimized. do you want to see anything change?do you want to hear from sex workers?

you challenge me to back up my position but when i do you simply diminish and degrade us. please try to contain your emotions and see this for what it is, an opportunity. an opportunity for us all to work on these issues together. we can waste time insulting each other or we can acknowledge the experiences of actual sex workers and try to move forward.

remind wrote:

 

Nice to see you got a free ad in, most usually have to pay for that privilege.

Is that true? I thought that members with web addresses were encouraged to post them, at least in their profiles -- and isn't there a thread for members who are also bloggers?

Well, that was a question from someone who is srsly out of date, I guess. Maybe it's back there in the archives; I actually don't know.

susan davis wrote:

remind wrote:

...not a chance in hell,  is femi-nazis going to be used here unless they are going to start allowing comments of equal equivalency to be used against you, and your allies, who actually are not  front sex workers,  just cheerleaders.

If  anyone thinks they can tell me, that I must respect a john's right to call me a feminazi,  in order to empower  sex workers, you are  mistaken.

now i am just a cheerleader? wow your insults are getting worse.

This is a personal attack, just as femi-nazi is,  as my full post that you edited was clearly was referencing a babble moniker that was not yours.

You have clearly identified yourself as a front line sex worker, and I have respected that positioning of yours in each and every circumstance.

I was speaking specifically to those who have identified as being non-prostitutes, and non-front line sex workers.

Quote:

i am a frontline sex worker....what the hell does that mean anyway? are you trying to describe survival sex workers, street sex workers?

It is those who sell sexual access by choice,  suppose I could reference you as that, but you state you want to be called a sex worker, but there needs to be a designation as to what type of sex worker you are.

For example, exotic dancers do not sell sexual access to their vagina

Quote:

i worked on the street...

...know all of this, as you have shared your lived experoience with us before, but I give it no more weight, that I would those other voices here, who have shared their lived experiences. I do not want to insult them and deny their voice, any more than I do yours

So, I am trying to do that balancing act, as I explained above, however, I do not see people wanting to give that same respect, to those who self-identiffy as protitutes. They are in the majority here, and in the real world. too.

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my experiences are hardly comparable to a cheerleader.....

Never said they were, please retract.

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i invited sex workers here at the request of babblers, here they are. attacking them and the ways in which they express themselves is low and makes me wonder why we should risk engaging with people like you.

No...no..no, people do not get to come here and use terms like femi-nazis, and I have every right to take exception to that expressing of self.

I have in no way attacked them, or you, I have stated it is  unacceptable, and so has a moderator,  again please retract that false allegation of attack....

Quote:

i... i would think that as a person who is invested in saving prostituted people you would care to listento what they have to say.

unless of course you only care about your own position and to hell with what sex workers actually think. we must get rid of prostitution no matter the cost.

I am using medical and business language yes, as that is how I see it, because that is my lived experiences.

Moreover, it is the absolute truth of it all. And that is why/what it separates capitalizing on sexual access out, as an industry. It has to have way more regulations surrounding it, than any oher industy, except the medical profession.

It has to have extensive regulations, as you should know, concerning body fluid exchanges and disposal of waste that is produced as a result, as well as mandatory testing requirements for all involved.

... have tied to be very respectful in my terminology while getting the health points involved across.

... have been listening to  the voices of prostituted women, however you state you are not one of them,  and that you are a sex worker that works willing on the front lines selling sexual access.

This puts me in a bit of a bind, don't you think?

In my social justice world, prostitutes who are being forced to do something they would not choose to do, are my top listening/actioning priority. And I give their voices more weight, than I do voluntary sexual access sellers/front line sex workers.

When there is only one of those here, namely yourself, and at least 3 other prostitutes's voices, then I must give their voices even more weight.

So it is not a matter of me disrespecting your voice, or agency, it is me weighting others words about lived experiences, more than I do yours. especially given your words often back up theirs.

Which brings us back to the sex worker label, I try to use it because it is what you wish to be called, but, I also gotta respect that there is a distinct difference between no contact sex workers, and contact sex workers.

Should I call you a contact sex worker then, as opposed to a front lines sex worker?

.... used the word front lines, out of respect and acknowlegement that you put yourself on the front lines willingly everyday...so I apologize if that is not how you see yourself.

What type of prefix/suffix would you prefer me to use when I use the label you want of sex worker??

Yes I did, never said Ididn't,  but it was not in reference to yourself, as you keep trying to imply, and I have asked to stop doing such things...I respect your positioning and lived experience,   please do not disrespect mine, by indicating I said something when I did not, in the real world and here that is slander.

I apologize in advance that I have not had the time or energy to read through the discussion yet. I will do so later. So as an introductory post, I would like to answer the originating question: "Is there sex worker representation of those who are in the trade, and enjoy the benefits of the work?" and tell my story.

My working names have been "Thais" and "Ingrid Nevin". I am 26 at present. I have worked in a massage parlour throughout my last year of university, and later on, as I was stuck in a dead-end corporate job that I hated, I came back to adult industry as an independent escort, which I have now been doing on and off for about 3 years.

I want to say that yes, I absolutely enjoy my job - as long as I can do it exactly on my terms. Those terms include:

- working part-time to have the time, flexibility and finances to pursue my other interests

- having rather high standards for clients in terms of respect and consideration they show me.

When these terms are met, I LOVE this job. When they aren't, I burn out pretty quickly. That's what happened at the massage parlour when I started working. I discovered a lot of great things about this industry that I never expected to find: moments of genuine connection and deep real intimacy between you and your client. I also found out that I hated when I was nothing but a body to the man I was with. Therefore, when I returned to the industry, I have only done it after about 6-8 months of research on pros and cons. I discovered how to keep the attributes I enjoyed and leave out the attributes I hated.

I've had a 2-3 hour minimum as an independent escort, a website that highlighted my personality, and requested a polite written introduction from prospective clients on what they were looking for. As the result, I made sure I was mostly seeing people who were interested in me as a person as opposed to a hot redhead. Several of my clients became good friends and mentors. Sex was also pretty good most of the time - it doesn't say much, but many clients were much better lovers than the boyfriends I've had. No, most of the time I wasn't attracted to them - but it does not change the fact that at least half of my clients were skilled lovers who genuinely cared for my pleasure.

I have also been fascinated with the industry and a member of several North American review boards over the last 3 years. I have read blogs by sexwork-positive feminists and abolitionists, I have been watching the fight and discource. Lately, I stopped participating in it. For me personally, these online debates are often more hurtful and draining that the rare bad/possessive client who slipped through my screening system. In fact, I dread reading this discussion thoroughly.

My impressions from personal experience, 3 years on the boards and following 10-20 escort blogs ranging from positive to negative is that being a prostitute/escort can be a positive experience as long as: your personality is suited for it (you see clients as human beings and care for them), you know how to set your rules with clients, and you have other meaningful things in your life and good network of support.

There appears to be an air of disgusted amazement and condescension at work here, a sense of protectionism that employs a peculiar methodology which borrows heavily upon derivatives of victorianesque patriarchy as the basis for argument.  Apparently, one cannot simply choose what to do with oneself as consenting, empowered adults, in conjunction with other adults, if it offends the sensitivities of those who shockingly object.

welcome ingrid and slumber jack!!meet remind and martin and infosaturated- they will be trying to undermine your perspective and ignoring your voices.try to ignore them, they can be a little rude.

i am greatful to meet yet another sex worker happy in her job!

still waiting for all the many numbers of "prostitutes persons" to contribute......since after all there are so many abused people in our industry....

love susie

remind wrote:

Hardly good characteristics when avocating for decriminalizations, as a way to protect prostitutes from oppression and exploitation at the hands of johns, pimps and traffickers. 

Left unmentioned is the entire structure of repression, comprised of legally sanctioned exploitation starting with the police.  The safety and security of those who could do with it is an admirable and all too necessary concern, yet imposing ones version of security upon those who do not require it is oppression in its own right, not to mention the characteristics that typically come with one size fits all morality.