Quebec has right to force immigrants to learn French, says NDP...

Machjo wrote:

There are reasons why public schools make these decisions, which are a combination of economic, linguistic, and other factors.

Public schools aren't making these choices. Empowering local schools and parents to make more choices has been shown to lead to improved outcomes.  Private schools must meet all the complusory pedagogical goals but they are free to enrich their programs. As long as overall educational goals are met, preventing schools from teaching English is based on political ideology.

English schools in Montreal are shrinking not growing. Suggesting this loophole forms a threat to the primacy of French in Quebec is ridiculous. If that were true, the English school system would be growing.

This "loophole" issue is a mere distraction and focusing on "immigrants" as the people using the loophole is misleading.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20020603/ctvnews8698...

There was a protest in Quebec Monday night over language rights -- only this time it is francophone parents who are upset over provincial language laws they say prevent their children from getting a bilingual education.

In Quebec, enrollment in public schools is restricted to children who have a parent who studied in English. That means that pricey private schools are the only option for francophone parents who want their children taught in both languages.

...

Today, many francophones say their language is secure enough that an English education is no longer a threat. However, others believe this could lead to assimilation.

...

Quebec Language Minister Diane Lemieux agrees and plans to tighten the law by closing a loophole allowing French children access to English public schools after one year of private school.

This isn't about immigrants using the English school system in Montreal. Its about French parents who want access to more English language learning for their children and the refusal of the Quebec government to allow it. That forces parents to try to access the English system.  If the French system allowed parents to choose more exposure to English they wouldn't be trying to get into the English system.

Joanna White was one of my professors.  I am not talking about Canada. I am talking about Quebec. The situation in Quebec is quite unique, and within Quebec, Montreal is unique.

I did simplify my arguments because as you seem to be aware the information available is vast and research on language learning is on-going. An exhaustive analysis isn't possible in this context.

I stated specifically that I was referring to ear training, the ability to recognize and duplicate sounds. I stated that even if the language is not learned at that age, the ear-training provides an edge in learning the language at a later time.

Machjo wrote:

The theory works only if the child is immersed in the concerned language environment or if they live with someone who uses the second language with them regularly.

This is why I referred to preschool and kindergarden. Because there is little in the way of subject teaching required at this level the focus can be be on language play at a time when most children are still motivated to absorb just about anything presented to them. I agree that a few hours a week is insufficient.

Machjo wrote:

I remember a Cameroonian professor telling me how this Canadian bilingual model was replicated with amazing success in a few elite private schools in the country. I'd found the same in China with one teacher raving about how all the children in the elite private school she was teaching at were all coming out fluent in English and Chinese thanks to the fully bilingual staff that the school could afford.

Bilingual teachers are not a requirement. Most language teachers don't speak any language other than the one they are teaching within the classroom. In a bilingual school half the teachers can be English and half French however what I am suggesting isn't a full out half and half system.  I am suggesting that ALL schools be primarily French but with increased access to English classes or English immersion for those parents who choose it for their children.

The solutions have to be school specific depending on the demographic nature of the particular school, parental preferences, and the available resources.

Thanks Machjo.

Revisiting some of the numbers:

http://demographymatters.blogspot.com/2009/09/on-concentration-of-quebec...

Together, children who speak Arabic, Spanish, Italian, Creole, Chinese, Tamil, Vietnamese, Bengali, and dozens of other languages now form 39.5% of the student population in Montréal, while Francophones form 39% and Anglophones 21.5%.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=81889889-d917-4759-b1da-4ee6f9f5108d

In Laval 2007), the graduation rate from the English system was 78.2% in comparison to the French system which was at 50%.

The English system offers 50/50 bilingual French/English education, in some cases favoring French even more and has a significantly higher graduation rate.

The French system has a significantly lower graduation rate and offers a unilingual French education.

As a parent, which public school system would you want to enroll your children in?

Before the language laws came into effect my parents chose to send me through the English school system in part due to their strong rejection of Catholism. Due to this I had the right to send my daugther through the bilingual system offered by the English school system.  As long as my daughter's children (assuming she has some) attend at least a year of school in the English system which is actually bilingual, their children will also have the right to access the bilingual English school system.

My unilingual French cousins have no such right.  Most of them cannot afford private schools.

This is about actively attempting to prevent francophones from accessing bilingual schools that already exist. Schools they wouldn't even be trying to access if the French system were not prevented by law from moderately increasing English language instruction.

If English schools were growing rapidly and Francophones were losing their language perhaps the argument that the state must step in to prevent Francophones from learning English might made some sort of sense.  It's simply not happening.  English schools are shrinking. There is no evidence that Francophones are losing their language.  None at all.

When it comes to education in Quebec, anglophones have more rights than francophones, and this is being sold as "protecting" them.

So, as it stands, a woman in Quebec can 'choose' to terminate her pregnancy, but she can't 'choose'  her child's language of education, should she 'decide' to give birth to a prospective Quebecois(e)-- who would also be a Canadian citizen, with Constitutional rights that, apparently, remain alienable in Quebec...for at least the next year.

autoworker wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Moderator notified - yet again. Could someone kindly close this thing?

You don't like the truth, do you?

Is this an open forum, or the kind of meeting where dissenters get bullied and shouted down?  I guess we'll find out. Stay tuned...

Fidel wrote:

autoworker wrote:

So, as it stands, a woman in Quebec can 'choose' to terminate her pregnancy, but she can't 'choose'  her child's language of education,

So they must be oppressed in the USA with having to speak American in public schools. And pregnant women in the USSA are free not to have access to prenatal care if they don't have the cash or room on their maxed-out credit cards.

Actually, Canadian women outside Quebec can exercise both options. I guess they have more freedom than Quebec women. I don't understand your reference to the U.S., however, since the discussion is about a Canadian Supreme Court decision, vis-a-vis a Quebec law, and it's opinion on Charter rights.

Infosaturated wrote:

I don't agree. I think it's regressive. The real solution is to have one school system that promotes both languages. It is quite normal in Europe to master multiple languages. The problem in Quebec is that language is a political tool. Kids of the elite all master English.

Quebec isn't Europe.  A single school system in Quebec would result in the elimination of publically-funded, English schools. Period.  A  fait accompli, if you will.

Dear Fidel; I can understand a democracy's desire to govern itself through duly established constitutional law.  I also applaud that democracy's judiciary when it upholds individual Charter rights, and resists the temptation of political expediency. 

Wilf:

"That kind of evolution of opinion is hard to replicate today, but it was the foundation of Canada and we need it again."

I think it is the DEPTH of thinking that is hard to replicate, Wilf.

Euthanizing this thread for length.  Autoworker, dropping the abortion issue into this discussion is an odious debating tactic.  Don't do this sort of thing again.