blanky de blank
H1N1 panic and stampede at the vaccination centers?
Sat, 2009-10-31 14:32
#1
H1N1 panic and stampede at the vaccination centers?
Sat, 2009-10-31 14:34
#2
Indeed.
Sat, 2009-10-31 14:37
#3
I thought first nations, old people and people with medical conditions where h1n1 could kill them would get first shots?
But that seems to be all forgotten. For starters they sent hardly any vaccinations to northern BC and thats where the fn are most in danger.
What is the current policy? First come first served?
Brian
Mon, 2009-11-02 13:33
#4
Does anyone think that dilivery of h1n1 vaccine through the for profit clinics in ontario and bc is a good idea?
In a shortfall, these clinics seem to be getting first dibs on vaccine too.
Is it good policy to vaccinate the healthiest wealthiest segments of society first? Perhaps the idea is that if they do not go to hospital and take up private rooms at 1 person per room, it will be easier to accomidate poorer people at 6 or 8 per room?
I am surprised that there is so little interest. As I undrestand it, first nations have by far the greatest succeptibility to the disease.
Why not vaccinate them first?
Brian
Mon, 2009-11-02 14:21
#5
Brian, I heard on the news this morning that vaccination clinics were SAYING last week that they were only going to take people from priority groups, but that a lot of clinics ended up just accepting anyone who showed up, and were really loosey-goosey about it.
(I don't think First Nations were mentioned on the radio as being a priority group, not sure - although certainly they should make sure First Nations communities have what they need to plan effectively for vaccinations and medical care).
Anyhow, so this week they were all, okay, we really REALLY mean it this time - we're turning away anyone who isn't in the stated priority groups. So it should be interesting to hear how the first day of that went.
In my opinion, people who aren't in the priority groups should chill out - we're going to get our turn. Lining up for 6 hours just to be turned away makes the line-up that much longer for people who ARE in the priority groups.
That said...I would be pretty annoyed if I had a four year old and a seven year old - and I ended up having to line up TWICE to get vaccinations for them because they wouldn't take two seconds to give my seven year old a shot too when I've brought both kids. And that's what they're talking about this week - if you bring children of various ages, only the ones five and under (or was it under five?) will get the shot and you'll have to come back later for the other kids.
Mon, 2009-11-02 14:41
#6
M. Spector
Does anyone think that dilivery of h1n1 vaccine through the for profit clinics in ontario and bc is a good idea?
In a shortfall, these clinics seem to be getting first dibs on vaccine too.
In what sense are vaccination clinics operated by local public health authorities considered "for profit" clinics?
Mon, 2009-11-02 14:47
#7
Timebandit
In our health district, they're only giving shots to kids under 5 yrs and pregnant women. Still waiting on when other categories can come in.
I think, given the rush on clinics, they should stick to the risk categories and people should have better sense than to try to jump the queue. *Should* being the operative word. Not that it has anything to do with what people *will* do.
Mon, 2009-11-02 14:53
#8
RevolutionPlease
In what sense are vaccination clinics operated by local public health authorities considered "for profit" clinics?
Patients at private medical clinics in at least two provinces have jumped the queue for H1N1 vaccine during a nationwide shortage of the flu shot, rekindling a debate about the perils of two-tier health care in Canada.
Copeman Healthcare, a private clinic in Vancouver that charges patients annual membership fees of $3,900 in the first year, has already received its first shipment of H1N1 vaccine and is hoping for more soon, said chief operating officer Chris Nedelmann.
Medcan, a clinic in downtown Toronto that charges just under $2,000 for a head-to-toe checkup, received 3,000 doses last Friday, enough for 8 per cent of its patients.
Ontario Health Minister Deb Matthews is vowing to launch a review of Toronto Public Health's decision to give Medcan access to a vaccine in short supply at a time when officials across the country are scrambling to rein in a pandemic that is taking a growing toll on Canadians. "When all of this is behind us, I think it is a question we are going to want to take a pretty good look at," Ms. Matthews said at a news conference yesterday.
Mon, 2009-11-02 14:57
#9
How the heck is it possible for a medical clinic to charge "membership fees" for quicker access to rationed medical services in Canada? How can that not be against the law?
Mon, 2009-11-02 15:06
#10
Timebandit
OK, that is seriously fucked up.
Mon, 2009-11-02 16:47
#11
well i don't really like following the bad language above, but this is the only thread continuing on the H1N1 issue, and i needed to put down some thoughts.
H1N1 is Influenza A and has been around since 1977. Many people have lived and died with it, some of the thousands noted in the earlier thread on this subject referring to the thousands of Canadians who die of the flu and related pneumonia each year.
We're not getting reports in the media about the history of this virus and its correlated illnesses nor the details on underlying or acute conditions. Is there data on how many of the flu-related deaths over the last three decades have been H1N1-related? To listen to the media, you'd think it was a new virus, steeped only recently on a Mexican pig farm. I heard this from a young schoolgirl the other day. Is this what the kids are getting taught in school? No wonder they're getting scared, and racist too.
Where is the historical data on this flu strain? Who did the studies? It is so easy to re-package limited data, bad science, in consecutively larger folders with each new 'expert' that reviews the material adding extra commentary, until one ends up with phone-book sized documents that look weighty with words but are shoddy on evidence.
Materials are repackaged and resold to each company subsidiary and consultant, leveraged just like bad debt when there is a profit compulsion.
The days of solid public scientific reviews of corporate 'studies' have long since passed. We now get 'pandemics' created simply by targetted corporate testing, without clear controls, along with mass corporate media hype, further biased reporting, fear-mongering and the expected public panic, needed to generate buy-in.
Do we have any full-time public sector scientists left in public labs doing short and long-term studies themselves? Or have all the cuts to funding resulted in complete dependency upon corporate 'science'. ..
Mon, 2009-11-02 16:55
#12
Here's the CDC's influenza pages; lots of good info, reputable source:
Basically, the flu is "new" every year because it mutates, which is why the flu shot has to be updated annually. Every time it mutates, it could become more, or less, virulent; we don't know.
Mon, 2009-11-02 17:01
#13
How the heck is it possible for a medical clinic to charge "membership fees" for quicker access to rationed medical services in Canada? How can that not be against the law?
Exactly what I was thinking, Michelle. But it wasn't just you and me:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/02/h1n1-medcan.html
Ontario will probe H1N1 doses given to private clinic
Deb Matthews says she is not going to second guess the decision by Toronto's medical officer of health to give Medcan, described as a preventative health-care clinic, 3,000 doses of the vaccines for its high-paying members.
Medcan has said it may offer the vaccine to non-members who come equipped with a referral from public health officials.
But that decision isn't sitting well with some in the health-care field.
I work for the government, in health care, and I have no idea how you get a "referral from public health officials."
Mon, 2009-11-02 17:23
#14
remind
Ah, isn't elite classism a wonderful thing?
Mon, 2009-11-02 21:15
#15
From what I have read so far, the people worst affected by this varient of flu are first nations, women (something like 3 times more likely to be badly affected than men) and kids under 5. There are not real official reasons why this is the case. It is just how it has panned out so far.
So that is why these groups are supposed to get priority. One of the things I just saw was that many people over 50 have some resistance, (having survived a similar flu many years ago. In BC, for sure first nations are supposed to be a priority group. So I find it puzzling that the north got the most serious shortfall of vaccine. (We do have a conservative government nationally and a BC Lib government locally of course). Perhaps we shall see diliverys of vaccine accompanied by ministers to conservative ridings before too long.
Brian
(I don't think First Nations were mentioned on the radio as being a priority group, not sure - although certainly they should make sure First Nations communities have what they need to plan effectively for vaccinations and medical care).
Mon, 2009-11-02 21:40
#16
well i don't really like following the bad language above, but this is the only thread continuing on the H1N1 issue, and i needed to put down some thoughts.
H1N1 is Influenza A and has been around since 1977.
And not to be confused with the swine flu scandal in the USA in 1976, and which infection was later found to be isolated to a few US soldiers at Fort Dix, NJ.
Mon, 2009-11-02 21:49
#17
I read that H1N1 is part bird flu, part pig flu and part human flu and only very recently jumped to humans from pigs.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:03
#18
Did anyone come across an explanation why adults 65 and under with a chronic condition are in the at risk group and not the ones older than 65 with a chronic condition? Seems to me that the older one is the more difficult it, generaly speaking, becomes to recover from a sickness.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:07
#19
RevolutionPlease
Did anyone come across an explanation why adults 65 and under with a chronic condition are in the at risk group and not the ones older than 65 with a chronic condition? Seems to me that the older one is the more difficult it, generaly speaking, becomes to recover from a sickness.
Brian in #14 says they may have been exposed to a similar flu. I have no links.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:08
#20
The thought is that people over 65 have had some exposure to a similar strain sometime back when people under 65 weren't yet born.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:09
#21
Did anyone come across an explanation why adults 65 and under with a chronic condition are in the at risk group and not the ones older than 65 with a chronic condition? Seems to me that the older one is the more difficult it, generaly speaking, becomes to recover from a sickness.
My 85 year-old mother had the H1N1 shot last week, and she's throwing up right now. It's good stuff.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:27
#22
Thanks.
Fidel, what did you have to do to get your 85 year old mother an H1M1 shot? They would not give my 95 year old man a shot because he was not considered to be in the at risk group. He wanted to get his shot because he wanted to travel across Canada with a friend. Now he left without the vaccination. He has a bit of a compromised heart. Hopefully he will not get sick 2000 miles from his support. Some 95 year olds do not seem to slow down.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:36
#23
Timebandit
Did anyone come across an explanation why adults 65 and under with a chronic condition are in the at risk group and not the ones older than 65 with a chronic condition? Seems to me that the older one is the more difficult it, generaly speaking, becomes to recover from a sickness.
One of the reasons is that there was a similar strain in the 1950s, so there is some immunity. Also, statistically, they are seeing a less usual demographic being sicker with this strain of the flu than one normally sees - younger people who don't necessarily have underlying medical conditions.
ETA link to an epidemiologist's blog post that explains it better than I can:
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/10/why_the_epidemiology_of_sw...
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:48
#24
Thanks.
Fidel, what did you have to do to get your 85 year old mother an H1M1 shot? They would not give my 95 year old man a shot because he was not considered to be in the at risk group.
I called the flu shot appointment hotline weeks ago and told them right off the bat that I have an 85 year-old with COPD - with a pacemaker - on oxygen and twelve pills a day. The person at the other end of the line said nothing whatsoever about her condition and gave us an appointment for H1N1 flu shot. And on the day we went, it was a circus, but we were in and out without much delay.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:58
#25
Tigana
Did anyone come across an explanation why adults 65 and under with a chronic condition are in the at risk group and not the ones older than 65 with a chronic condition? Seems to me that the older one is the more difficult it, generaly speaking, becomes to recover from a sickness.
My 85 year-old mother had the H1N1 shot last week, and she's throwing up right now. It's good stuff.
Oh cripes. I am so sorry.
Mon, 2009-11-02 22:59
#26
remind
hope she gets better fidel.....
Mon, 2009-11-02 23:28
#27
Fidel, I am surprised that they did not ask more details about your mothers medical problems. Seems to me this is very much a case that could have been better by her family doctor, who would know more about your mother.
Timebandit, thanks for the link. There is a discussion there about the 65+ group.
Tue, 2009-11-03 00:27
#28
I hope your mother gets well soon, Fidel. I'm sorry to hear she's so sick.
Tue, 2009-11-03 01:01
#29
Polly B
Fidel, make sure your mum drinks lots of water. One of the older girls - I think she's 90ish - here either got the flu or a reaction to the shot shortly after her vaccine. She was okay but pretty sick, and her GP said fluids are a MUST. We poured them into her and she's fine now.
Tue, 2009-11-03 09:09
#30
You did the right thing, Fidel; if people with COPD get the flu, they are at a much higher risk of worsening COPD and 2ndary pneumonia.
Trouble with the flu shot is, takes coupla wks to kick in, so a person can always get flu in the meantime. If she does get the flu, Tamiflu may be a good idea, but it's best started within 48 h of onset of symptoms.
Hope she's okay - let us know.
Tue, 2009-11-03 10:28
#31
A critical look at the public's sense of panic, from a researcher... posted to CBC.ca in their sidebars. A tiny bit of back pedalling, perhaps, after an excessive focus on two childrens' deaths that are tragic-- but not at all representative of what's actually happening.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/02/f-viewpoint-cassels.html
Tue, 2009-11-03 12:01
#32
Tigana
Thanks, GG, for this link with its return to facts and reason.
"Hype can make us all ill"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/02/f-viewpoint-cassels.html
Comment after the story:
Is this a pandemic...or a damn panic?
Tue, 2009-11-03 12:05
#33
Tigana
Fidel, adverse reactions to vaccines should be reported here:
Tue, 2009-11-03 12:32
#34
Thanks for posting that article, Green Grouch and Tigana. Was just about to do that. I really like Cassels and trust his opinion.
Tue, 2009-11-03 12:45
#35
remind
Yes, just read the article, finally some sanity.....
Is this pandemic worth worrying about?
A: Probably not. If we can learn from the experience in the southern hemisphere, which just had its main flu season, mortality from the H1N1 virus is relatively low.
Most countries had flu-related mortality rates of less than one per 100,000 cases. That's tiny.
But surely the H1N1 flu is severe and deadly?
A: Compared to what? The regular run-of-the-mill seasonal flu? Nope. There is substantial evidence that the mortality rate from H1N1 flu is actually much smaller than seasonal flu.
Isn't it public spirited to get vaccinated, so you won't spread the virus to others?
A: That sounds plausible, but is that recommendation evidence-based? Researchers who have combed through hundreds of flu-vaccine studies find very little evidence that suggests a vaccine will prevent the spread of the virus in the general population.
Of the hundreds of studies on flu immunization campaigns, only about four are of sufficient rigour to say anything definitive. And two of those studies show the vaccine in question to be useless.
Finally, the truth gets out that getting the shot will not prevent the spread of it, nor any other virus, to anyone else.
Thank you CBC.
Tue, 2009-11-03 15:36
#36
Well, If you concider that the normal flu doesn't normally kill young people, and if you value an old life the same as a young life perhaps the normal flu is worse. But how do you compare a young life taken to an old life taken? This flu has killed healthy kids of 12 and 14. This flu kills women in their 20's and 30's.
Sorry, maybe it is just me, but I prefer if a disease kills people who have lived their life rather than those that are just starting and those who have dependants.
I think a disease that selectively kills kids is a lot worse than one that kills off old folk that are going to die soon anyway.
Brian
Thanks, GG, for this link with its return to facts and reason.
"Hype can make us all ill"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/11/02/f-viewpoint-cassels.html
Comment after the story:
Is this a pandemic...or a damn panic?
Tue, 2009-11-03 15:41
#37
remind
wonderful.....ageism now too, how Logan's Run....
normal flu does kill young people and people in there 20's, BTW.
Tue, 2009-11-03 15:47
#38
Timebandit
But not as often as this one, remind. The point is, this flu is atypical, and that in itself has some cause for concern.
Also, keep in mind that Cassels is a *policy* researcher who doesn't seem to have any medical training himself - he is not an epidemiologist or virologist, for example. And the article is an opinion piece.
His bio: Alan Cassels
Alan Cassels has managed a variety of research and evaluation studies over the past twelve years primarily focusing on the impact of provincial drug benefits policies on consumers. He led the first ever evaluation of Canadian newspaper coverage of new drugs (published in April 2003 in the Canadian Medical Association Journal) and has lectured at Canadian journalism schools on issues surrounding pharmaceutical reporting in Canada. He is currently affiliated with the School of Health Information Sciences at the University of Victoria, and is co-author with Ray Moynihan of "Selling Sickness: How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies are Turning us all into Patients" (Greystone books, 2005).
Tue, 2009-11-03 15:58
#39
Fidel, make sure your mum drinks lots of water. One of the older girls - I think she's 90ish - here either got the flu or a reaction to the shot shortly after her vaccine. She was okay but pretty sick, and her GP said fluids are a MUST. We poured them into her and she's fine now.
That's too bad for her. I hope she's alright. I don't know what it was with mum, because she seems aokay now. Could have been the Halloween treats she got into and went overboard a little. And so now her gout has flared up and foot is sore. Maybe we both need adult supervision. I have to watch that she doesn't drink too much water with her COPD. Two litres a day is supposed to be her limit. I've been cooking weight watchers recipes for her, and over the last year and half she's down to a reasonable weight, which is less strain on her heart the doc says. I don't know if that's a good thing or just that my cooking sucks.
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:05
#40
remind
"atypical" ?
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:11
#41
Timebandit
Yeah. It means "not typical" or "unusual". Also could be referred to as "novel". (not the book kind, the other kind.)
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:17
#42
Tigana
Thanks for this, Timebandit. I thought his name looked familiar.
His bio: Alan Cassels
...He is currently affiliated with the School of Health Information Sciences at the University of Victoria, and is co-author with Ray Moynihan of "Selling Sickness: How the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies are Turning us all into Patients".
(From http://www.mediadoctor.ca/content/people.jsp )
Alan Cassels' Website
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:31
#43
H1N1 SELECTIVELY kills healthy young people. It targets them. Thats a big difference.
I do not know if you have any idea how different it is to lose relatives in their 20's and to lose relatives in their 70's, remind. I lost a brother who was 18 from terminal illness and one at 20 from an accident and my da later at 73. In my case, I would have happily swapped years with my brothers and my da would have happily swapped decades. His last year was filled with unconsolable sadness.
Anyway, call it ageism if you like. Maybe you can ask a mother what it is like to lose her kid and see her perspective.
If it were your choice, would you die or let your kid die?
Brian
wonderful.....ageism now too, how Logan's Run....
normal flu does kill young people and people in there 20's, BTW.
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:34
#44
Tigana
Gotta go. My black button is blinking.
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:40
#45
remind
Ya, timebandit, I know what it means...
my question was why you would think it so at this point?
Using early surface cohorts, based upon reports in the news, and not later correlation data is a flawed rational at best.
When the dust settles on this, just as it did with SARS, one can say perhaps there was for sure an atypical viral component.
Currently from the death reports out here in BC, that I have saw, that were not sensationalized by the media, as the "young" who are being targeted, the older than 25 age gradients are winning the H1N1 death race. And indeed 11 of the 15 who have died have had "other" conditions.
Most people do not even understand what a virus is, let alone, know what is atypical presenting of it....
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:53
#46
remind
H1N1 SELECTIVELY kills healthy young people. It targets them. Thats a big difference.
No actually that is not known at present for sure, that is what they are reporting, or choosing to report.
I do not know if you have any idea how different it is to lose relatives in their 20's and to lose relatives in their 70's, remind. I lost a brother who was 18 from terminal illness and one at 20 from an accident and my da later at 73. In my case, I would have happily swapped years with my brothers and my da would have happily swapped decades. His last year was filled with unconsolable sadness.
This is personal anecdotal beliefs, very valid though and I hear you completely, in some ways.
Anyway, call it ageism if you like. Maybe you can ask a mother what it is like to lose her kid and see her perspective.
You are assuming that I haven't either experienced it myself, or have not witnessed it in action.
Personally put no more value on a young life, than I do an older life, as I realize, if all the mentors in society died and only the young were left, much mucgh knowlege and awareness is lost, say nothing of lived experience and resulting awarenesses.
Contrary to popular belief the young do not know it all.
If it were your choice, would you die or let your kid die?
It is not my choice, and it can never be anyone's actually, unless it is a direct savings of one life for another, like throwing your child to safety while dying yourself, and said comment is just another emotional thought terminating cliche, that serves no purpose.
Our laws would never let us give our last kidney to our child for example, in order to save their life, no matter how much we individually wanted to do it.
Nor should our laws.
Tue, 2009-11-03 16:55
#47
Imagine SARS without all the quarintine? Even with all the efforts of the health system, it killed 10% of those who got it. The conspiracy theorists ignore that fact.
If it had got out into the general population, thats 3 million people in Canada. Yeah, lets not vaccinate. Lets keep all the kids going to school as though things are normal. Who cares if a healthy 14 year old kid gets h1n1 today and dies on thursday? its just hype.
Tue, 2009-11-03 17:10
#48
Pogo
The reports I hear say that it is a variation of the flu that hit in around 1957, so if you are over 54 you likely have already some immunity to it and have less need for the vaccination. Therefore it is going to disproportionately affect younger generations
I am going to get the vaccination because it is a good heath risk prevention strategy. However I am not panicked about it as the odds of serious consequences are minimal either way. I don't think we need to get into a 'save the children' mode as of yet.
Tue, 2009-11-03 17:11
#49
Sorry, remind, it is known for sure. You can read about the outbreak at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic It seems that in this part of the world, it is just getting started. Vaccination will slow the spread and save money and save lives directly.
Brian White wrote:
H1N1 SELECTIVELY kills healthy young people. It targets them. Thats a big difference.
No actually that is not known at present for sure, that is what they are reporting, or choosing to report.
Tue, 2009-11-03 17:15
#50
Timebandit
Which makes it atypical in terms of the affected demographic.
Pogo, I wouldn't class myself as panicked either, but my kids are 8 and 12 years old, respectively. Given the what we've seen so far, I'd just as soon forgo the risk of them getting seriously ill with this flu and will take them in for vaccination when our turn comes up. Without stampeding anything, of course.
Tue, 2009-11-03 17:30
#51
Pogo
My kids are 14 and 16 with one in risk category (her medical advice asks us all to get vaccinated). Our clinics start tomorrow, but I am going wait a couple of days for the rush to subside and go on Friday with my daughter. The rest of us will go when the clinic open up to the general public.
I think that the early role out of the vaccine was based on rose coloured projections. They assumed moderate levels of requests, high production numbers and few queue jumpers. Good intentions, but poor management (though if people vote against the Conservatives because of it that then there is one positive).