ElizaQ,* you do not know my connections to FN and I have not yet had time to look into yours.
Here is some information on the brutal treatment of Natives at Barriere Lake:
http://barrierelakesolidarity.blogspot.com/
Any soldier of any racial or ethnic background who helps the people who stole and conquered his/her land undoubtedly will be confused, or in denial.
*oh hello again Sagan, how are you?
Tigana, I've tried to reply to your PM, but it says you're not accepting them.
It is important to remember the reasons why wars have been waged, so we will not fall for scams in the future.
The most important reason is that war is immoral. But it is also stupid.
This article has some interesting information on infighting between Queen Victoria's offspring which led to horrendous civilian casualties:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/12/queen-victoria-royal-...
US false flag operations are chronicled here:
http://truth11.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/chronology-false-flag-attacks/
US General Smedley Butler's WAR IS A RACKET pdf
The Canadian government should pay for the full costs of returning troops. Why does the legion resort to poppy charity fundraising to provide assistance to the troops? But it's not unlike all the other charities which lets government off the hook.
A bit ironic isn't it that the poppy symbol is worn while Canada is trying to eradicate the poppy in Afghanistan? Even more ironic that the Taliban did a much better job that the imperialist invaders. How many poppy farmers have died as a result of this invasion and occupation? Why not draw a line through the poppy to highlight our war against the poppy? Even better, why not wear a peace sign instead?
The Canadian government should pay for the full costs of returning troops. Why does the legion resort to poppy charity fundraising to provide assistance to the troops? But it's not unlike all the other charities which lets government off the hook.
A bit ironic isn't it that the poppy symbol is worn while Canada is trying to eradicate the poppy in Afghanistan? Even more ironic that the Taliban did a much better job that the imperialist invaders. How many poppy farmers have died as a result of this invasion and occupation? Why not draw a line through the poppy to highlight our war against the poppy? Even better, why not wear a peace sign instead?
BRILLIANT!!!
Thank you, Polunatic2.
They're not warriors. They're civil servants.
They've been known as warriors since long before these shores were stolen. You should learn some history.
Ok, so, the warriors are working for the thieves who stole their land to help them steal more land?
Must have been pretty confusing when they went to Barriere Lake.
ElizaQ,*
*oh hello again Sagan, how are you?
Okay,
a) ElizaQ has been an excellent member of the babble community for years (three years longer than you have, in fact), so it's kind of rich for you to accuse her of being a multiple account if that's what you're implying.
b) If you're not going to accept private messages from people, then don't send private messages. That's an abuse of our private message feature on babble.
For everyone's general information: if someone is sending you unwanted private messages, you can block them from sending you any more. Just open a private message they've sent you, and click on the "block user" link in their message.
.
a) ElizaQ has been an excellent member of the babble community for years (three years longer than you have, in fact), so it's kind of rich for you to accuse her of being a multiple account if that's what you're implying.
I have not had time to read more than a few of that member's posts.
No accusation of sockpuppetry was made. Comment to Sagan was an afterthought, hence the *, an edit mark.
b) If you're not going to accept private messages from people, then don't send private messages.
For everyone's general information: if someone is sending you unwanted private messages, you can block them from sending you any more. Just open a private message they've sent you, and click on the "block user" link in their message.
Thank you, Michelle. I do not see any matching information about abuse of the message system here
http://www.rabble.ca/about/babblepolicy
It would have been good information for me to receive at my email addy when I asked about the messaging service - twice. I got no reply. I believe the editors have my address. That would be a good place for you to respond to my concerns about "r*t's *ss" comment too.
Mr. Harper thinks we have a lot of enemies.
Do we?
Yes.
Poverty, ignorance, injustice.
War robs and destroys its bringers.
http://www.luccaco.com/wewerehumans/
White Poppy - Voices for Peace - Here you can get white poppies and educational materials or donate.
When did Remembrance Day becomes "Veteran's Week"? I just saw an ad for this on CBC.
I just noticed that on posters in the hallways at work today.
Creeping yankeeism is what it is.
This video advert for "Veterans' Week" is fairly nauseous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEa9Y6G8QtU&feature=yva-title
While it's politically correct in its inclusiveness (lots of shots of blacks, women and first nations people) its war boosterism - linking Canada's participation in past wars to our current role in holding Uncle Sam's coat while he punches out assorted little Muslim nations - is rather revolting.
That's what I thought - creeping Yanquism.
While it's politically correct in its inclusiveness (lots of shots of blacks, women and first nations people) its war boosterism - linking Canada's participation in past wars to our current role in holding Uncle Sam's coat while he punches out assorted little Muslim nations - is rather revolting.
That's exactly right. The message is simple:
1. WW 2 was the "good war".
2. The Afghan War is like WW 2.
3. If the Afghan War is like WW 2, and WW 2 is the "good war", then it follows that:
4. The Afghan War is a "good war".
Canada's "military history" is played up at the expense of Canada's U.N. peacekeeping history.
I remember, respect, honour and affirm, that your lives, given or impacted, were not in vain, as I know war is never ever the answer. And I know that the many of the world know this too and that someday, we who know, will prevail.
May the rain of blessings fall upon those innocents and their families, who still endure war on their door steps, for the heinious crimes of personal power and greed.
Well put, as was the post 31.
And let's not forget this other great poem for rememberance day:
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
-- Randall Jarrell
The CBC had some 5 min creepy war romanticizing shit going on this morning...the propaganda was unbelievable...
Remind, I read your moving post above from last year. I wanted to ask are you wearing a poppy this year. I am especially torn as my father passed away this year. He was a veteran of the second world war and an ardent proponent of peace -- he always wore a poppy and rejected the current political games over remembrance. He also marched against the first Iraq war-- I believe that was his last political demonstration other than voting of course.
I would wear a reminder for injured workers and participate in other things of that sort. Today very few go out to war-- the impact on our society and the losses are very small. But we put on the poppy not for them but for those communities of people -- young mostly-- who left with much of their towns and villages and cities and returned damaged if alive at all. We wear the poppy to remember those people-- the poppy is not just about today's professional soldier. It is about much of a generation sent overseas to die. Whole towns had their male populations (women did not do front line duty in the first world war) wiped out in a matter of minutes. They had to reorganize the military such that individual towns did not all fight together so this did not happen in the second world war. The horror was widespread and touched everyone. That's why we wear the poppy today.
Next year I guess I'll have to struggle with this again. This year I'll wear one for my father.
Never struggle with it....not into playing politics with it, it is simply the day I remember my grandafther, greatuncles, and uncles....war was never glorified in my family...far from it
and thank you....
Remind, I read your moving post above from last year. I wanted to ask are you wearing a poppy this year. I am especially torn as my father passed away this year. He was a veteran of the second world war and an ardent proponent of peace -- he always wore a poppy and rejected the current political games over remembrance. He also marched against the first Iraq war-- I believe that was his last political demonstration other than voting of course.
I would wear a reminder for injured workers and participate in other things of that sort. Today very few go out to war-- the impact on our society and the losses are very small. But we put on the poppy not for them but for those communities of people -- young mostly-- who left with much of their towns and villages and cities and returned damaged if alive at all. We wear the poppy to remember those people-- the poppy is not just about today's professional soldier. It is about much of a generation sent overseas to die. Whole towns had their male populations (women did not do front line duty in the first world war) wiped out in a matter of minutes. They had to reorganize the military such that individual towns did not all fight together so this did not happen in the second world war. The horror was widespread and touched everyone. That's why we wear the poppy today.
Next year I guess I'll have to struggle with this again. This year I'll wear one for my father.
"Lest We Forget."
What do those words mean?
Remembering our veterans and the sacrifices they made is only half the equation.
What else should be be mindful of on Remembrance Day?
What is the great evil?
War.
Why did (all veterans regardless of country) go to war?
They were manipulated through propaganda and used by their governments.
Remembrance Day should be an occasion to end war so that no more will a nation's youth be lost in efforts to murder the youth of other countries.
Looked at from this perspective, Remembrace Day is currently an opportunity by the "War Party" to promote war as the message is "Soldiers are Heroes"; it buys into the whole war programme. We need to break from this entirely and promote the message that "Soldiers are victims" (as are anybody else who are unfortunately caught in the path of war) and that war is evil and obscene; a plague that torments us. Like cancer or smallpox, war is a social "disease" that needs to be eradicated. Translated literally, war is a learned (acquired habit of thinking and acting) behavior that needs be (and can be) "unlearned".
I don't get this last post-- there is something I am not understanding about it-- I know war is evil etc. etc. what has that got to do with the issue of wearing a poppy for your own reasons?
I don't get this last post-- there is something I am not understanding about it-- I know war is evil etc. etc. what has that got to do with the issue of wearing a poppy for your own reasons?
The poppy is inextricably linked to Remembrance Day. Do you know what the symbolism of the poppy is? I don't think those who organize Remembrance Day ceremonies do, otherwise they would use it as an occasion to condemn and try to end war rather than glorify it and thereby perpetuate it.
Of course I do know what the symbolism of the poppy is.
I understand that it is being coopted by a war-mongering party.Who here does not get these two concepts?
I just don't see what that post has to do with what I said since it follows a quote from my post. I'll look later maybe I'll get it then.
Any society that makes the soldier more worthy than retail, ain't doin' so well. They sacrifice themselves so the country can feel pure again -- pure pathology. Yuck.
I just don't see what that post has to do with what I said since it follows a quote from my post. I'll look later maybe I'll get it then.
Wearing a poppy perpetuates the message that the death and sacrifice of soldiers is acceptable and therefore that war is acceptable: That governments were right and just to send our young peole to war.
Having read the other posts, I think the best message we can give is to wear a white poppy which supports peace and condemns war and as such sends the message that our young people didn't have to die in these useless, unjust and wasteful wars.
If these wars hadn't existed, then many of our loved ones and their children would still be with us.
I prefer the white poppy as well, but they aren't sold here. Next year I'll either just spray paint a red poppy white, or order one online.
I prefer the white poppy as well, but they aren't sold here. Next year I'll either just spray paint a red poppy white, or order one online.
frmrsoldier, my grandfather hated wars, was a passivist, had terrible "shell shock", and he went to Nov 11 celebrations every year, until he died to remember his brothers and cousins lives...he knew how brainwashed they had been, and how even 2 of his own sons were and would not listen to him, and went away to fight in WWII, only to come back full of the same realizations...
...as one Vet said on TV, anyone who has been to war, is against war...but their voices are not heard by some....
that some have co-opted Nov 11 for commercial purposes, and now propaganda, is not their problem, nor what hey are about.
They feel safe, to remember those tragic days and affirm who they are today because of it, it was their lived experiences that taught them to be anti-war, and their children and grandchildren today. We are the ones who see the propaganda for what it is..and reject it.
That is why today, I remember what they learned and the sacrifices they made to learn and share it with the next generations....
my family were shocked and angry when I joined the militia, howeverI had needed too, to see it from the inside. I did and because of my feminist perspectives could not have stayed. Though at first it had promptedme to join.
Most people who wear the poppy are not rightwing warmongerers. It is possible to be anti-war but pro-veteran - in fact that's what we should be.
my family were shocked and angry when I joined the militia, howeverI had needed too, to see it from the inside. I did and because of my feminist perspectives could not have stayed. Though at first it had promptedme to join.
I too joined the military in a state of ignorance desiring to learn from experience. After the Afghan War broke, I remained in the hope that I could end the war sooner as a soldier (an insider). The reason why I am no longer in is the Army gave me a "voluntold" honorable discharge for my critical opinions of the war.
"Lest We Forget."
I just don't see what that post has to do with what I said since it follows a quote from my post. I'll look later maybe I'll get it then.
Wearing a poppy perpetuates the message that the death and sacrifice of soldiers is acceptable and therefore that war is acceptable: That governments were right and just to send our young peole to war.
Having read the other posts, I think the best message we can give is to wear a white poppy which supports peace and condemns war and as such sends the message that our young people didn't have to die in these useless, unjust and wasteful wars.
If these wars hadn't existed, then many of our loved ones and their children would still be with us.
I simply do not agree with this at all. It may be that some people would like this to be so but it just isn't-- I won't repeat Remind's well spoken words but that is the point. We need to resist the cooptation of this symbol of the horror of war rather than give in to it and no longer remember. The poppy does not belong to the ministry of propaganda and it should not be turned over to them.
Perhaps what we need to do is resist that interpretation of the wearing of the poppy not the wearing of the poppy itself.
I was looking for a small peace pin I could wear with it and that may be what I do next year.
The red colour represents blood-- horror-- I am not sure that the white poppy can replace the red poppy. We need to perhaps write letters editorials- comment to friends and remiond everyone we can what this symbol is about and shame those who would hijack it for political purpose or to support new wars -- it never was for that purpose and we should not have to give it up because some people are ignorant and others liars.
I simply do not agree with this at all. It may be that some people would like this to be so but it just isn't-- I won't repeat Remind's well spoken words but that is the point. We need to resist the cooptation of this symbol of the horror of war rather than give in to it and no longer remember. The poppy does not belong to the ministry of propaganda and it should not be turned over to them.
Perhaps what we need to do is resist that interpretation of the wearing of the poppy not the wearing of the poppy itself.
I was looking for a small peace pin I could wear with it and that may be what I do next year.
The red colour represents blood-- horror-- I am not sure that the white poppy can replace the red poppy. We need to perhaps write letters editorials- comment to friends and remiond everyone we can what this symbol is about and shame those who would hijack it for political purpose or to support new wars -- it never was for that purpose and we should not have to give it up because some people are ignorant and others liars.
The symbolism (and reality) of the poppy is that in the fields of France and Belgium during WW 1, the poppy had the macabre habit of deriving its greatest nourisment from the decaying remains, either above ground or just below the surface of fallen soldiers. After lying for weeks in the fields, one way to find the remains of soldiers was to search among the poppies.
The governments, commercial communities, mainstream medias and Legions that sponsor, run, publicize and attend Remembrance Day ceremonies in the countries that hold them have sooo co-opted the true meaning and purpose of such ceremonies and thus the effect is to psychologically mobilize our society for and to perpetuate war.
"The tragedy is our soldier doesn't survive the slaughter. It ends up a wasted effort, and is all the more tragic and sickening for it. In fact, several of the noble warriors whose shoes we inhabit meet with heartbreaking ends. This is a fitting way to counter the notion fostered in most shooters that war is something that can be escaped unscathed.
The message is unambiguous: Combat may be exhilarating and capable of satisfying our deepest, most animalistic cravings, but it is also chaotic, terrifying, and something few of us would ever want to aspire to outside the safety of a video game."
Our Troops must fight the poppies over there, so we don't have to fight them over here. Imagine: if we weren't in Afghanistan, Canada would have poppies growing in your Baba's back yard!
That's why I didn't make any carte blanche statements about how 'they; must be 'confused' but listed a variety of different viewpoints that I have personally come across when it comes to this issue. Not even close to all of them either, but that really was part of the main point. There isn't just one way of thinking about it with many far from black and white or binary, either/or. Maybe thats the way most in the communities or people your connected with think. I dunno and don't particularly care. That hasn't been my experience.
In terms of Veterans and Remembrance day the people who honour the Veterans at the Pow Wow's don't seem confused, and the families who talk about their members who served in the military, and it meant so much to them that they gave up their status, talk about how important to them and who they were as people but they do not seem confused at all either. They talk very clearly about how they were wronged by the Canadian government during that time but think that their support of the war at that time was about something different.
A friend of mine who is FN served in the war and yes he was very confused, not about serving in the military and being a FN but about what most others in the military are confused about, what to do with their experience with the violence with little or not support and trying to make a life for himself outside of the military when it was such a different environment for him. It had little if anything to do with his FN background but it did have to do with the way the Canadian government treats all soldiers.
That is my experience, I just wanted to put it in there because it is similar to ElizaQ's.
VIDEO: Buffy Sainte-Marie talks about how the concept for UNIVERSAL SOLDIER came to her, and performs it.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en&q=universal%20s...
I didn't wear one this year, white would have been good. A simple meme crawls out of the box and is appropriated by the arms manufacurers; not on my watch. However, the poppy in Flanders is a simple herbal that was grown by the colonial agricultural complex which was assiduously farmed by the Brits in Afganistan under tax regimes for forced export to China to corrupt and divide the Heavenly Kingdom leading to the Boxer Rebellion (war). Commercial big pharma in Europe uses the white variant to produce it's opiates; use of which renders one dull and withdrawn. I have only ever worn a poppy to remember the soldier as victim. Though a mere male, next year will wear a white one and black clothing to honor the Women in Black. Thanks Tigana and Buffy.
I have always love S Sassoon as a poet.
BUMP
Hey Makwa! Where you been dude?!
Hey Makwa! Where you been dude?!
dang, I was just thinkin' the same thing...
That post of Makwa's is from last year.
What if they threw a war and nobody came?
There is an argument to be made about "pacifism being thwarted by the willingness of people to join the military". It is short sighted of course, because the real impetus for war comes from the Elites and their desire for "wars of commerce", but still, if nobody signed up then it wouldn't happen.
As for poppies, they are the primary reliever of pain for humans [we have a specific receptor for the chemicals in poppy plants] and that poppies were growing so readily in Flanders Fields where so much carnage took place was completely appropriate.
I've never associated the red poppy with support for war or millitarism-- only with the motto: 'Lest We Forget'. Apparently, some of us have.
I've wondered if the white poppy is a takeoff on the white feather, handed to young men not in uniform (by young and not so young women) as a comment on their bravery (lack of), after the butchery of the Somme.
I wear a red poppy and eagle feather to commemorate all the FN Warriors who served in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq and Afghanistan.
I've never associated the red poppy with support for war or militarism-- only with the motto: 'Lest We Forget'. Apparently, some of us have.
If it was just WWII, I'd be happy to go along with the whole thing. But it's part of a long history of propaganda to convince people that the wars of their rulers - past and future - are wars for democracy and freedom and all that good stuff, when in fact, they're almost always wars for imperialism and profits. I refuse to be part of it.
I've never associated the red poppy with support for war or militarism-- only with the motto: 'Lest We Forget'. Apparently, some of us have.
If it was just WWII, I'd be happy to go along with the whole thing. But it's part of a long history of propaganda to convince people that the wars of their rulers - past and future - are wars for democracy and freedom and all that good stuff, when in fact, they're almost always wars for imperialism and profits. I refuse to be part of it.
RosaL: You're free to believe what you like; but, personally, I refuse to refuse to wear the red poppy simply because some mercenary interests may have hijacted and perverted its original meaning, which still resonates with myself and many others.
It seems to me, that the same argument can be made about the commercialization and hypocrisy surrounding the peace symbol-- yet, that emblem continues to retain its meaning for the less cynical amongst us.
RosaL: You're free to believe what you like; but, personally, I refuse to refuse to wear the red poppy simply because some mercenary interests may have hijacted and perverted its original meaning, which still resonates with myself and many others.
It seems to me, that the same argument can be made about the commercialization and hypocrisy surrounding the peace symbol-- yet, that emblem continues to retain its meaning for the less cynical amongst us.
I don't think it's been hijacked or perverted at all: I think what I describe IS it's original meaning.
What do you think it's original meaning is? If it doesn't mean, "remember those who died for our freedom" and "to you from failing hands we throw the torch", what does it mean?
I've never associated the red poppy with support for war or millitarism-- only with the motto: 'Lest We Forget'. Apparently, some of us have.
I would say most (gen. pop.) have.
I've wondered if the white poppy is a takeoff on the white feather, handed to young men not in uniform (by young and not so young women) as a comment on their bravery (lack of), after the butchery of the Somme.
It could be white (as in white dove) as a symbol of peace.
