The Afghan people will win - part 14

Polunatic2 wrote:

So I still don't get it. First, I can't find the NDP policy on Afghanistan on their website.

Its at the bottom of a list called "other priorities" contained as the fourth entry under a heading called Canada: Global Leadership in Peace and Justice to wit: (highlights and emphasis are my own)

"Withdraw all Canadian forces from the Afghanistan combat mission, with reasonable advance notice and in consultation with our allies. (notice the gaping omission of withdrawal from Afghanistan entirely...which means withdrawal to a safer zone for political reasons)

Ensure that Canada delivers on the aid and development assistance commitment made through the Afghanistan Compact. wtf???

Ensure that women and human rights groups in Afghanistan can access Canadian development dollars, and that corruption at all levels of government is addressed effectively.  (they might have to start frisking members of the government they will work with for this to happen)

Ensure that the United Nations, not NATO or the US, becomes the lead organization in the provision of security and development assistance in Afghanistan.  (A UN which contracts security out to the US and to NATO, while rogue non-lead USian forces roam the country and the airspace at will with their own agenda of extermination)

Explore and promote opportunities for negotiating peace at the national, regional and international levels, in line with proposals made by the President of Afghanistan and leading security experts." (in line with CIA front men and puppets)

No wonder they want to bury this as deeply as they can on the website, while still having something to point towards should the question be raised of what their actual policy is.  Billions of dollars being spent, hundreds of Canadians dead, maimed and psychologically damaged for life, and a lead role in conjunction with other predator nations in the ravaging of another land and people whose suffering at the hands of western interests continues without end, and this is all they can come up with.  Pathetic and useless are the kindest words to describe this farce.

LMAO

Unionist wrote:

The Afghans stymie the combined military might of the most powerful in the world using home-made explosive contraptions and brilliant networking strategies with the local communities. And you're concerned about their lack of entrepreneurial spirit!? LOL!!!

Wrong again, as usual. My point is that Afghan entrepreneurial skills are second to none but they cannot flourish in the face of violence. My concern is that Afghanistan will never be allowed to determine its own destiny by one or another meddler.

I have all confidence in the hardy Afghans and none in the moral superiority of the western Hurst syndrome hairshirts that offer only empty platitudes.

You preen and gloat  about "using home-made explosive contraptions and brilliant networking strategies" without even an empty-headed thought about the "brilliant strategies" of the Iranian and Pakistani intelligence services that supply advanced munitions and logistics to peoples they only consider as dupes to advance their own strategic interests.

Also, the Afghans haven't stymied anything militarily. They have merely benefited from the politically unpalatable option of what Mao consided counter - insurgency, namely killing everything that moves. This solution was used by the Germans in WWII as well as the Russians and Chinese to no effect on the victims' intransigence or will to survive. The concept destroyed infrastructure and killed untold numbers of civilians but the will of the people survived.

I am of the opinion that Afghans can determine their own destiny without help, if left to their own devices but the concept that "the Afghan people will win" if only the western 'invaders' leave, without any analysis of the other players' intentions  is ludicrous.

"All Canadians can be proud of the men and women of the Canadian Forces that courageously risk their lives every day in Afghanistan and elsewhere."

"I join Canadians from coast to coast to coast in praying for the quick recovery of the two soldiers who were wounded in the explosion. We pray, too, for the safety of all our soldiers as they continue the fight in Afghanistan."

"We should all be proud of the men and women of the Canadian Forces that courageously risk their lives every day in Afghanistan"

"My thoughts and prayers go out to Pte. Lormand's family and his colleagues as they mourn this loss. We will all remember his work in Afghanistan with pride."

"We remember the brave men and women who fought in two world wars, in Korea, in Afghanistan, and in NATO and UN peacekeeping missions across the globe."

 http://www.ndp.ca/

yep, the NDP is wayyyy off base, they should be trashing those soldiers, and their families, who died.....along with all WW, Korean, and Peace Keeping vets, what were they thinking expressing prayers, empathy and condolences....

Polunatic2 wrote:

Third, why does the NDP call on negotiations with the "Taliban" when in fact, Canada's "partners" in Afghanistan include the warlords and druglords that make up part of the Karzai government?...It seem that the NDP support Joya, just not her position on immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops.

Well we've had babblers suggesting that the Taliban will win this phony war regardless. And we've been encouraged to compare this war to the VietNam conflict, but only certain parts of that ten thousand day war and namely the final outcome. Other similarities tend to be ignored in order to make weak cases against the NDP or for whatever reasons that aren't clear.

Malalai Joya says that the US-led NATO occupation has pushed Afghans from the frying pan into the fire. Her people hate the medieval Taliban, she says. She says that there have been ongoing talks between the Taliban, Gulbuddin  Hekmatyar, Hekmatyar's people in Karzai's government, the US-CIA, British MI6, and with the Saudis and Pakistani army intelligence mediating these backchannel talks. Ms Joya says, in so many words, that they are unproductive talks and will not result in anything positive for Afghans. I agree with this as well. There are three possible bad outcomes for Afghans at stake here:

1. Phony war continues and NATO stays for several more years, Afghans die(and no end in sight today)

2. NATO wins and Afghanistan becomes a permanent NATO base in the colder war to surround Russia and China(not likely and the warfiteers and US hawks know it)

3. The Taliban win and continue to represent strategic depth for the elite in Pakistan and controlled by Saudis(USA friendlies) and Pakistani ISI(extension of the American CIA) - Not likely and the Taliban know it.

The point is that:

A. North Atlantic Treaty Org has no business carrying on military operations in two countries in Central Asia. Those countries have formed their own military and security alliance with the SCO.

B. Expert observers have said this is an unwinnable war for any of the principals involved. Not without tearing the country apart from stern to stem as was allowed to happen from 1992 to 1996 when CIA-funded warlords fought a Darwinian battle for control of the country while NATO countries turned their backs on the carnage.

What is clearly needed to end Uncle Sam's 30 year-long involvement in Afghanistan are transparent,  UN-mediated peace talks resulting in clear goals and outlining steps for withdrawal of NATO troops there in Afghanistan and contributed from 25 or 30 countries. 

Afghanistan's sovereignty has been violated willy-nilly for over 30 years, and there are more countries involved in this conflict than meets the eye. It requires an international solution and not a NATO solution. 

But suggesting that the anti-war movement sit on our hands and hold our breaths until this total withdrawal happens,  and blaming the NDP for what is a decades-long proxy war involving and affecting countries surrounding Afghanistan,  is folly. The goal for any anti-war movement on the left should be first and foremost to press for the end of organized murder.  

Just received this from my young friend who spent several years in Afghanistan, blew the whistle opn torturing of detainees, and whose friend, Rory Stewart (The Spaces in Between), led some Brits in Iraq for a bit (Black Watch), but came to see the error of his ways and took of restoring an old area of Kabul and supporting the regrowth of the ancient woodworking trades there.

In response to my saying I'd reviewed what parts of Hillier's memoirs I could stomach, and my question, what Rory Stewart is up to now, I learned:

"Rory Stewart still running his charity, but now teaching at Harvard
too. Haven't read the Hillier book, but several friends say it's not a
reliable. "
You would have to read The Places in Between to appreciate Stewart. I hope you do before you condemn him. He's real "people" U.
The writer will have his book published in the new year. And I'm sure he will not advise continuing with the present course in Afghanistan. And I hope that, like Rory Stewart, he will advise on useful intervention that leaves peole with real work, incomes, hope. You know, the historical union position.

No doubt, U. If the faithful, young unemployed resist all attempts at kick-starting a medieval economy, and the medieval warlords and their medieval means of persuasion ( torture) prevail,  no doubt.

Webgear wrote:

Most the current warlords were educated by the Soviets.

Yes, but the Soviets essentially left Afghanistan's theocratic-feudal culture intact, from the Stalinist era through to the revolutionary period. There were women attending universities in kabul and former USSR in the 1960's and 70's. Afghan women wanted the same freedoms that women in surrounding Stani nations had gained for basic rights to education and to participate in society. Afghanistan's civil war was probably the first in history to begin as a women's rights movement. Not even the CIA blamed the Soviets for it happening.

what is the explanation george?

Not that I find the list particularily interesting as I could have made a similar list on Canada and the USA

It stood out in the list as something that Rory Stewart commented on.  These people are a throwback to the descendants of Genghis Khan (as i recall) , who created much mayhem  thereabouts ,and their distinctive features reflect their ancestry.

Afghanistan is not a vertical mosaic or multicultural phenom of peace, order and good gov. But it did supply the original "warlord" (Mogul Emperor) whose diary Rory Stewart read as he followed his (1505) path through the mountains in winter - lon his way to his conquest of northwestern India.    

canuquetoo wrote:

Lets face it - the NDP is the only hope for Canadians to break the liplock on Uncle's ass.

Someone better tell Mr. Layton this because currently Jack's head is so far up Barack Obama's ass he might as well be the Vice President of the USA.

Webgear wrote:

 Someone better tell Mr. Layton this because currently Jack's head is so far up Barack Obama's ass he might as well be the Vice President of the USA.

It's the bandwagon approach to moral compass reading and direction finding.

Fidel wrote:

.....there needs to be  international cooperation to end this three decades-long conflict in Afghanistan....

For instance, the sharing of airlift capacity to facilitate a hasty exit would be an initiative we could all unequivocally support.

Webgear wrote:

canuquetoo wrote:

Lets face it - the NDP is the only hope for Canadians to break the liplock on Uncle's ass.

 

Someone better tell Mr. Layton this because currently Jack's head is so far up Barack Obama's ass he might as well be the Vice President of the USA.

Hence the suggestion that they grow a spine and grind it out with the jowly old white guys. That will earn them respect with the voter. Right now, the NDP minions are just part of the Hill scene attempting to vet their gold-plated pensions before an election. Growing a spine will take intestinal fortitude but the result may well break the hold the old farts in fancy suits have on power in this nation.

The average Canadian may be apathetic, but not stupid.  Give them a reason to be angry with the pork chops in the fancy suits. Look at the bloated faces of the lads in fancy suits enjoying the fruits of others' labours and tell me they have the nation's interests at heart.

Frmrsldr wrote:

remind wrote:

yep, the NDP is wayyyy off base, they should be trashing those soldiers, and their families, who died.....along with all WW, Korean, and Peace Keeping vets, what were they thinking expressing prayers, empathy and condolences....

I think they should ask, "Why?"

I think they should also emphasize that the Liberals and Conservatives sent/are sending our troops to fight and die in an unjust, illegal and immoral war they knew from the start we couldn't win.

I think they should suggest that this is a useless and wasteful war and that the Liberals and Conservatives bear the responsibility for it.

My goodness, FrmrSldr, haven't our vicious toadies suffered enough with kid Khadr, Arar, reports of election rigging in Kabul ni 2004 and again today, and now a torture scandal ? Why can't the looney leftwing anti-war crowd be satisfied with their streetcorner protests limited to so many people on Tuesdays only and carrying signs suggesting that "War is mean and nasty" or "Out of Afghanistan now!" while the MSM ignores them? Next thing we know the NDP will be telling them how to orchestrate an outbreak of peace from within NATO instead of the feds acting like colonial administrators that they are in Ottawa.

Fidel, when was the last large anti-war protest in Canada? Even in Edmonton the last one was only a few hundred people. The majority of people are sheep and are not affected Afghanistan. 60% of Canadians do not care about voting in Canada let alone what happens in Afghanistan.

Webgear wrote:

All Afghans consider the Hazaras to be no better than slaves (currently about 10% of the population).

Given the history of Afghanistan, the Afghan mistrust and loathing of foreigners is an almost genetic trait of its culture. The Hazaras are the descendants of the invading Mongols and often have their Oriental features. They do not look "Afghan" to other Afghans and they are reminded of yet another group of foreign invaders and occupyers.

As to why Afghans have such strong feelings against Mongols or Mongoloid peoples (people with Mongol ethnic traces), read about the Mongol invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

If they are this brutal to fellow Afghans, imagine how they must feel toward us.

Frmrsldr wrote:

If they are this brutal to fellow Afghans, imagine how they must feel toward us.

Because the word Afghanistan is an Western term. Afghans identify themselves to according to tribal and clan heritage.

To be political correct, we should not use the term Afghan or Afghanistan.

funny, has Joya said that?  have heard/read her state "Afghanistan".....upon numerous occasions

Webgear wrote:

To be political correct, we should not use the term Afghan or Afghanistan.

Absolutely. And to be morally and legally correct, we should not be engaging in regime change and trying to determine the future of these peoples, something prohibited by international laws as expressed by the Nuremberg Principles, the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Charter.