If they are this brutal to fellow Afghans, imagine how they must feel toward us.
Because the word Afghanistan is an Western term. Afghans identify themselves to according to tribal and clan heritage.
To be political correct, we should not use the term Afghan or Afghanistan.
When I did that, some old white guy told me I "reeked of white western privilege and superiority".
Stoogery in Ottawa - that's Canada's contribution to the ongoing proxy war in Central Asia. The old line parties are weak, ineffective, indecisive and corrupt stooges who simply follow Uncle Sam's instructions.
Fidel, when was the last large anti-war protest in Canada? Even in Edmonton the last one was only a few hundred people. The majority of people are sheep and are not affected Afghanistan. 60% of Canadians do not care about voting in Canada let alone what happens in Afghanistan.
And that's just the way stooges in Ottawa and their imperial masters want to keep it. This is a manageable war without the casualties that there were in VietNam or the international proxy war waged against the Soviet-backed Afghan PDPA beginning in the late 1970's and continuing in one form or another to this day.
The warfiteers are not having to deal with Kent State protests or hippies on the White House lawn. Joe Mechanic and Nurse Nancy are not daring to carry protest signs in front of the Pentagon. And unlike the VietNam war, the MSM is now in the pockets of the warifteers and their hirelings in government. And there is no equivalent to the transparent Paris peace talks happening today. They are closed-door talks without the press attending. Today there is no similar public outrage for the war on democracy.
And now we have Canadians suggesting the NDP should not only stay out of Afghans' sovereign business even though Afghan sovereignty is nill next to non-existent today still, they are saying the NDP and other political opposition groups should stay out of NATO and Uncle Sam's business by inference.
No one is "blaming" the NDP for the Afghan quagmire. Nice try at changing the channel. Nobody is suggesting that we need to agree with everything Joya says about getting all foreign troops out of of Afghanistan right now - including non-combat troops no doubt. But if you don't agree with her position, don't pretend that you do. That's a dishonest position in my opinion. Suggesting the Canadian troops are courageous liberators as the NDP does in its obit news releases, is wrong in my opinion.
Every death of a Canadian should be one more reason to highlight the importance of promoting the position that we should get out now and let the UN broker a deal among the Afghan parties afterwards when the parties are ready. Making a UN deal between all the Afghan players AND the foreign invaders should not be a pre-condition for withdrawal. Joya calls for the immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops. Period. Not very nuanced, I know but that is her position. The NDP calls for the withdrawal of combat troops from the mission (not necessarily from the country) and for the UN to take over "security". Could the NDP envision Canadian troops taking part in such a UN mission?
That's a couple of differences between Joya and the NDP's position. Pointing that out is not suggesting that the NDP are cheerleaders (good try again).
is there anything I have forgotten?The Philippines?
No one is "blaming" the NDP for the Afghan quagmire. Nice try at changing the channel. Nobody is suggesting that we need to agree with everything Joya says about getting all foreign troops out of of Afghanistan right now - including non-combat troops no doubt. But if you don't agree with her position, don't pretend that you do. That's a dishonest position in my opinion. Suggesting the Canadian troops are courageous liberators as the NDP does in its obit news releases, is wrong in my opinion.
You must be reading this same thread in a parallel universe where I did imply those things. Malalai Joya has said that the ongoing illegitimate and phony peace talks between the Taliban, and the west and with Saudi and Pakistanis mediating will produce nothing positive for ordinary Afghans. And she says that both the Taliban and foreign occupiers are hated by millions of Afghans.
Every death of a Canadian should be one more reason to highlight the importance of promoting the position that we should get out now and let the UN broker a deal among the Afghan parties afterwards when the parties are ready. Making a UN deal between all the Afghan players AND the foreign invaders should not be a pre-condition for withdrawal as the NDP position suggests. Joya calls for the immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops. The NDP calls for the withdrawal of combat troops after a UN brokered deal.
And there are even more Afghans dying than Canadians. Imagine that.
The NDP has voted consistently against extending the occupation in Afghanistan. What the NDP is proposing now does not negate that same position for cessation of Canadian combat in Afghanistan and troop withdrawal regardless of the gobbledygook youve posted above.
That's a couple of differences between Joya and the NDP's position. Pointing that out is not suggesting that the NDP are cheerleaders (good try again).
I still have no idea what you're trying to say.
Likely true, however at this rate, we will be there for decades.
I don't think in the sense that we will have units of conventional forces on the ground. I think if the war continues with Western involvement, it will revert to the U.S.A. Pentagon directed proxy war of 1978 - September 2001.
The Soviet Union left Afghanistan because its economy was being destroyed by the war and the nuclear and conventional arms race with the U.S.A.
The U.S.A.'s economy has been/is being destroyed for the same reasons: Its economy is driven by the arms industries, the U.S.A. is waging wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Somalia, probably is covertly involved in Yemen and who knows where else, then there is the bloated Pentagon budget, the NATO and other U.S. military overseas bases, is there anything I have forgotten?
Yeah, the dismal choices facing the ancien regime as it becomes a supplicant rather than a benefactor.
Pierre Trudeau was three parts asshole in my opinion (which is next to a compliment considering the talent of his successors) but he was a man of conviction. He stated a Twainsian truism when he opined: " dealing with the Americans is like sleeping with an elephant - very difficult even when the beast is friendly".
The Americans are appreciating the truism of that dynamic as they become the sleeping partner of the Chinese elephant.
American adventurism will be constrained by the consequences of a monumental wealth transfer to Asia or will be challenged by the consequences of sovereign default.
This is the elephant in the room ( no more elephant analogies). The potential for a (another?) "with us or against us" ultimatum from hubristic Americans in denial of their squandered potential will be the global (and especially, Anglospere's) stoogocracy's worst nightmare.
Oh yes, Joya, has no way of knowing what the NDP position is, she is just easily hood winked, is all, by the nasty deceitful secretive lying NDP, who are taking advantage of her.
The NDP want this war to wage on and on and on...
It has nothing at all to do with some people perhaps reading into what they want to, or by what a political agenda could be...nope not for one minute...
Yep I always read the NDP website and see it saying the Canadian troops are "courageous liberators"
Nick Ternette, now a paraplegic but full of his usual fight, remarked in a recent contribution that he was disappointed by an aspect of Joya's public presentation. Nick noted that Joya took the position, as has been outlined here by unionist and Polunatic2, of demanding that foreign troops leave unconditionally. Nick felt that, somehow, Joya should provide answers (to his satisfaction) as to how the Afghans will deal with the Taliban and "post pullout" issues. (My term) But this is still the imperial country dictating terms. I was a little surprised by Nick's remarks ... but I include them, I guess, to point out that people whom I respect very much can still get this issue totally wrong.
The only thing an invader should do is LEAVE. And pay for the mess they've made.
The Russians understood this very well, recently, in Georgia. They gave the Saakashvili militarist regime the thrashing it deserved, destroyed as much of the weapons as they could, prevented more bombing of Ossetians and Abkhazians, and got the frack out of town. Perhaps the Russians learned an important lesson in Afghanistan that others, including Uncle Sam and our own country, have failed to learn.
I have revised my post slightly since I was wrong about the NDP suggesting a UN-brokered deal in advance of withdrawal.
Another poster linked to the obits. The language is there. No one was ascribing it to you Fidel.
I still have no idea what you're trying to say. Perhaps you should try harder.I was responding to this -
Nope.... they have never done that, none of that, they have been rah rah war cheerleaders all the way....
The kicking of the Amerikan ass will come as just as huge a shock as the kicking of the Soviet ass must have been.
Another half-baked fairy tale from a one-legged ass kicker.
Any kicking of the American ass will be self-inflicted, as usual. An extraordinary potential squandered in the name of nationalistic hubris - generations of 'proud Americans': good, decent people sacrificed on the altar of a warped global vision.
When I did that, some old white guy told me I "reeked of white western privilege and superiority".
Truth hurts, does it?
Nick felt that, somehow, Joya should provide answers (to his satisfaction) as to how the Afghans will deal with the Taliban and "post pullout" issues.Frankly, I have wondered the same thing, particularly after I saw Rethinking Afghanistan. Then I heard Malalai Joya speak and she persuaded me with the perspective that the Afghani people will have an easier time resolving their problems if they only have to fight one set of enemies, and not two.
is there anything I have forgotten?The Philippines?
Ah yes! The U.S.A. first got involved in the Philippines in the 1898 Spanish American War.
Any kicking of the American ass will be self-inflicted, as usual.
Warfiteers have been holding US taxpayers to ransom for phony wars since WW II. "Winning" the war is the last thing on their minds. The end of organized murder in Afghanistan and the UN serving them a restraining order and exit strategy is also the last thing the US military and friends want to happen.
But here we are supposed to believe that the NDP don't know what they are talking about. The fact is that it's our stooges who have no spine and lacking brains. And it is their imperial masters in Warshington who can't help themselves out of Afghanistan. Someone is in need of adult supervision. And it's not Afghans so much as our stooges waging war on democracy on the other side of the world as theyve been instructed to by Uncle Sam. I am glad the NDP has challenged them from every angle including that part where the NDP demands troop withdrawal years earlier when crazy-crazy George II and his Republican conservatives were leading our Liberal Party stooges around by their nose-hairs.
Oh yes, Joya, has no way of knowing what the NDP position is, she is just easily hood winked, is all, by the nasty deceitful secretive lying NDP, who are taking advantage of her. The NDP want this war to wage on and on and on...From Wikipedia -
Malalai Joya appeared at the Federal Convention of Canada's New Democratic Party (NDP) in Quebec City on September 10, 2006, supporting party leader Jack Layton and the NDP's criticism of the NATO-led mission in southern Afghanistan. She said, "No nation can donate liberation to another nation."So Joya agreed with the NDP's criticism of the mission. That doesn't mean that she agreed with the NDP's approach to withdrawal. If it was, she wouldn't be calling for immediate withdrawal of ALL foreign troops NOW. And the NDP doesn't have to agree with everything she says in order to provide moral support. Suggesting that there's an "agenda' behind criticizing the NDP's position is old hat.
The U.S.A. first got involved in the Philippines in the 1898 Spanish American War.I was thinking in more contemporary terms.
Does the NDP support immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops as Joya has said? Simple question.
Nick Ternette, now a paraplegic but full of his usual fight, remarked in a recent contribution that he was disappointed by an aspect of Joya's public presentation. Nick noted that Joya took the position, as has been outlined here by unionist and Polunatic2, of demanding that foreign troops leave unconditionally. Nick felt that, somehow, Joya should provide answers (to his satisfaction) as to how the Afghans will deal with the Taliban and "post pullout" issues. (My term) But this is still the imperial country dictating terms. I was a little surprised by Nick's remarks ... but I include them, I guess, to point out that people whom I respect very much can still get this issue totally wrong.
Joya does explain that with the U.S.A./NATO/ISAF militaries gone, the Afghan people will at least be reduced from fighting either two (U.S.A./NATO/ISAF and Taliban forces) to one force or from three forces (with the warlords included) to two forces, the Taliban and Afghan warlords.
In contradistinction to Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid (he believes that there will be a civil war, and that it's better if foreign forces stay. If they leave, the Taliban, will once again come to power and Afghanistan will once again largely revert to the way it was pre-invasion), Joya is confident that most Afghan people want peace, self determination and equality and will either thus prevail or the post foreign withdrawal period will be one that will test the will for peace, self determination and equality and we will just have to see whether this is enough for the people to win or not.
When I did that, some old white guy told me I "reeked of white western privilege and superiority".
I know, take it with a grain of salt.
Truth hurts, does it?When I did that, some old white guy told me I "reeked of white western privilege and superiority".
Depends on what you mean by 'truth."The Truth" by more sanctimonious white hairshirts? All my life I've been told by old white guys that unless I listen to them, I'll never amount to anything. Lots of hurts by white do-gooders only interested in their own do-gooding.
Nothing new here on babble - just a minority of old white guys telling me that if I don't drink from their particular poisoned chalice, I'm not welcome. The same in life -most folks accept you for who you are but there are always some pompous assholes who can't stand dissent from their holy writs.
I'm used to it but it has never dimmed my determination to be me. To stand against all efforts at indoctrination.
You are merely a white doofus. I'm used to a more mendacious strain than your opportunistic cheap-shot drivebys.
Does the NDP support immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops as Joya has said? Simple question.
If the Harpers and phony opposition agreed to put it to a vote(again), do you believe the NDP would vote with the two stoogeocratic old line parties?
Has anyone ever asked the question who is controlling Malalai Joya? Who are her powerbrokers?
How about the women of Afghanistan......
many years ago now...but some still like to pretend it never occured, or pretend the NDP have changed positions.....
When I did that, some old white guy told me I "reeked of white western privilege and superiority".
I know, take it with a grain of salt.
It was a stream of consciousness psychological sorting out and talking out loud. I scared the hell out of myself when I wrote it. If anyone calls me racist, I won't contest it.
Are Afghans brutal and racist in their treatment of their different ethnic groups?
Yes. Sadly, that is the reality of the matter.
If the Afghan "authorities" we are transferring our detainees to are Tajik and Uzbek and the detainees are Pashtun, then definitely, there is going to be widespread apathy, neglect, abuse and torture. Conversely, if it's a case of Pashtun authorities and Pashtun detainees, then the prisons will have revolving doors and a 'catch and release' policy is in effect.
If clowns like Hillier and others know anything about the country they are fighting in, then they will have known this.
Are they that stupid, or are there things they are not telling us - a lot of things they are not telling us?
If you're talking about a vote to extend the mission, no, I don't think the NDP would vote with them. And if the NDP called for a parliamentary vote on immediate withdrawal of all Canadian troops from the country, I don't think those two parties would support that. Will the NDP table such a motion in line with Joya's courageous position?Does the NDP support immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops as Joya has said? Simple question.
If the Harpers and phony opposition agreed to put it to a vote(again), do you believe the NDP would vote with the two stoogeocratic old line parties?
Frmsldr, it is a fucked if do and fucked if you do not situation.
If we had created a Canadian POW camp then the NDP/Bloc would have complained about the army having a POW camp. Now they are complaining we don't. That is the nature of Canadian politics, no one will cooperate.
As anyone ever thought about what happen to detainees taken during all those years of peacekeeping?
Does the NDP support immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops as Joya has said? Simple question.
Um, don't be ridiculous.
And read through this thread to see the number of self-deluded "progressives" who think the Afghan people need their kind assistance. It's pathetic and disgusting.
How about the women of Afghanistan......
Oh, my. The women of Afghanistan. What altruism.
If you're talking about a vote to extend the mission, no, I don't think the NDP would vote with them. And if the NDP called for a parliamentary vote on immediate withdrawal of all Canadian troops from the country, I don't think those two parties would support that. Will the NDP table such a motion in line with Joya's courageous position?Does the NDP support immediate withdrawal of all foreign troops as Joya has said? Simple question.
If the Harpers and phony opposition agreed to put it to a vote(again), do you believe the NDP would vote with the two stoogeocratic old line parties?
So you're saying that the NDP opposed the previous Liberal government's decision to get us into a wild and wooly US-led combat mission in Southern Afghanistan. And the NDP opposed this government's decision to extend the aggressive US-led combat mission in Kandahar to 2011 with Liberals voting in favour.
Now you want the NDP to grandstand with a bill proposal to break this Tory-Liberal coalition government's NATO commitment for troop withdrawal in 2011? What purpose would this serve other than to be voted down by the old line party coalition? How many people think the result would be any different than the last time?
Why do people need for the NDP to repeat their position for troop withdrawal every month and twice on Sundays? It's like a recovery group for people whose mothers abandoned them as children at the shopping mall and never got over it.
Why do people need for the NDP to repeat their position for troop withdrawal every month and twice on Sundays?
It's called getting the message out, campaiging, taking a stand. You have to do that when you're a political party if you want voter support.
I have not heard any party calling out "Bring our troops home now!", which is amazing because we have a minority government that keeps demonstrating how cruel and incompetent it is.
Do you know how popular that movement would be right now? The best way to support our troops now is to get them home as soon as possible.
I'm not a dipper or a libber. In fact, I consider Preston Manning to be one of the greatest leaders we had in the last 40 years. But Harper is a bastard, Aghanistan is a failure and most Canadians are beginning to realize that we no longer have any noble mission there.
Do you know how popular that movement would be right now? The best way to support our troops now is to get them home as soon as possible.
It would be about as popular as it was a little over a year ago during the last election campaign. Opinion polls showed that a large majority of Canadians oppose Canada's participation in this US-led phony war, and yet the Harpers still won an exaggerated minority government in an election marked by one of the lowest voter turnouts in recent Canadian history.
I'm not a dipper or a libber. In fact, I consider Preston Manning to be one of the greatest leaders we had in the last 40 years. But Harper is a bastard, Aghanistan is a failure and most Canadians are beginning to realize that we no longer have any noble mission there.
I think we do have a diplomatic role to play in helping Afghanistan to become a successful nation state and sovereignty respected by all countries currently involved this conflict, if there was proper leadership in Ottawa. We don't have leaders in power in Ottawa and never have. Our two old line parties are led by prolific followers and vicious toadies to Uncle Sam's agenda for colder war and great gamesmanship on the other side of the world. Canada could play a positive role as a member of the international community with someone like Jack Layton leading the way and not following orders from Warshington.
[url=http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16315]Obama never considered diplomacy[/url]
Opinion polls showed that a large majority of Canadians oppose Canada's participation in this US-led phony war, and yet the Harpers still won an exaggerated minority government in an election marked by one of the lowest voter turnouts in recent Canadian history.
Didn't Diogenes just happen to mention that all the parties took the same stand on bringing the troops home?
That, and other near-identical stands on big issues, might help explain both Harper's win and the low turnout.
I'm closing this for length.
I'd like to suggest that as we move into the 14th possible thread on this issue, that we really think about what the purpose is for all these threads. Given, you know, the title of these series of threads. Sniping about what is and is not the NDP policy in Afghanistan seems a little bit, oh I don't know, self-centered to say the least.
Perhaps a new series of threads can be developed. "The NDP: Vicious War Hawks or Representatives of All that is Good and Just in the World"?
Enough already!
