Now that was a special Sudbury Saturday night.
Oxygen-dependent life may have gotten started because of...Sudbury?
Sat, 2009-12-05 02:34
#1
Oxygen-dependent life may have gotten started because of...Sudbury?
Sat, 2009-12-05 04:39
#2
And it still looks pretty barren around Sudsbury. There are visible impact fractures in the country rock surrounding the city for some distance. Glad I wasn't there when it happened. Woulda been a bad day for sure.
Sat, 2009-12-05 11:30
#3
remind
So life started in Sudbury, and then snowbirded it south to the Indus Valley to really develop further ;)
Sat, 2009-12-05 11:50
#4
Boom Boom
I've been to Sudbury several times, and never once saw the crater - although I've seen the barrenness of the city and surrounding area back before they started to green it a bit.
Sat, 2009-12-05 13:37
#5
remind
given that the crater size is 200km one might over look it when one is descending into it.... ;)
Sat, 2009-12-05 13:45
#6
My Cat Knows Better
I've been to Sudbury several times, and never once saw the crater - although I've seen the barrenness of the city and surrounding area back before they started to green it a bit.
Of course you didn't see the crater although you were probably in it. I spent a good deal of my life there in the mining industry. If you know what your looking at it is evident on the ground. I read the new theory, its very interesting and plausible. BTW most of the deforestation done in the area was the result of logging off the original white pine to rebuild Chicago after the great fire. The final damage was done when the mining industry was starting up and the companies were using open air roasting to burn off the sulphur from the ore. (They used the remaining stands of forest in the area).
Things have come a long way since the fifties when the sulpur dioxide in the air used to turn the chrome on cars green...
Sat, 2009-12-05 13:50
#7
My Cat Knows Better
given that the crater size is 200km one might over look it when one is descending into it.... ;)
Actual size on the ground is about 30 x 60 kms. today. Apparently the original impact was in the order of 15 km. deep. A pretty big hole no matter how you look at it.
Sat, 2009-12-05 14:37
#8
I guess the experts know better, and maybe there's other more deffinate tell tale signs that make it beyond question that it was a meteor that hit what we know as Sudbury today, but much of the evidence of the catastrophic event, including shatter cones in rock far below, ejecta and irridium deposits could also be explained by volcanic activity.
An earth shattering kaboom, either way.
Sat, 2009-12-05 17:07
#9
Boom Boom
I wonder where the meteor came from originally. Did it come from another planet or galaxy where life is abundant?
Sat, 2009-12-05 19:56
#10
remind
My favorite pet theory about all this, also includes Vancouver Island. :D
They know VIsland is not from around here, well it is not broken off from the NA continental plate, nor is it a part of the continental plate, it is from the Philippine chain, and is actually a hug chunk of land mass broken off which now sits on the sediment from the Fraser and Columbia rivers. Whose presence cannot be explained by continental drift apparently.
My theory is that the Sudbury comet actually did a bounce, or a clip, and struck the Philippine land mass that is now VIsland, knocking it to where it is, and then the comet itself hit further afield at Sudbury.
Now there is not any evidence of this that I know of....but it could explain how VIsland got where it is and why it is in essence a floating island, as perhaps being fractured off from the Pacific plate mountains, that lie mid Pacific ocean.
have often wondered if the under water Philippines cartography would show such a thing, but have never bothered to look.
Sat, 2009-12-05 20:17
#11
remind
Thought there was no life anywhere but here on earth boom boom? ;D
... they say this meteor, oxygenated the depths of the oceans, causing the instant die off of iron eating bacteria, which lead to other forms of bacteria, which in turn lead to multi-celled organisms, and then human ourselves..
I would say it came from the asteroid belt
The asteroid belt formed from the primordial solar nebula as a group of planetesimals, the smaller precursors of the planets. Between Mars and Jupiter, however, gravitational perturbations from the giant planet imbued the planetesimals with too much orbital energy for them to accrete into a planet. Collisions became too violent, and instead of sticking together, the planetesimals shattered. As a result, most of the main belt's mass has been lost since the formation of the Solar System. Some fragments can eventually find their way into the inner Solar System, leading to meteorite impacts with the inner planets. Asteroid orbits continue to be appreciably perturbed whenever their period of revolution about the Sun forms an orbital resonance with Jupiter. At these orbital distances, a Kirkwood gap occurs as they are swept into other orbits.
Sat, 2009-12-05 21:31
#12
My Cat Knows Better
I guess the experts know better, and maybe there's other more deffinate tell tale signs that make it beyond question that it was a meteor that hit what we know as Sudbury today, but much of the evidence of the catastrophic event, including shatter cones in rock far below, ejecta and irridium deposits could also be explained by volcanic activity.
An earth shattering kaboom, either way.
There were two theories regarding the deposition of the metallic suphide deposits in the Sudbury Basin. The geological department at INCO subscribed to the meteor impact theory. Falconbridge geology originally had a theory that postulated the Basin was formed by the eruption of three volcanoes. They were in the minority with this, and have in the end come to agree that the impact theory is likely correct. (obviously simplistic explanations.)
Sat, 2009-12-05 23:00
#13
Boom Boom
Thanks, remind. This is a fascinating thread - I hope we can keep it going. I can't understand why there can't be life elsewhere besides earth - we've barely explored but a tiny faction of what is out there. Maybe I've been reading too much sci-fi in my life.
Sat, 2009-12-05 23:20
#14
My Cat Knows Better
There is a ballot initiative in Denver, Colorado that if successful with put in place a "Extraterrestrial Affairs Commision". Personally, I think that this was the result of the activities of the Tin Foil Hat brigade...
Sun, 2009-12-06 03:31
#15
remind
Na boom boom not too much sci-fi, just critical thinking.....
There is no way in hell we can be alone in the universe...
Sun, 2009-12-06 11:47
#16
Boom Boom
I wonder how many parallel universes there are - and are they getting tired of our space junk showing up on their doorsteps?
Sun, 2009-12-06 12:39
#17
scott
BTW most of the deforestation done in the area was the result of logging off the original white pine to rebuild Chicago after the great fire. The final damage was done when the mining industry was starting up and the companies were using open air roasting to burn off the sulphur from the ore. (They used the remaining stands of forest in the area).
Open air roasting caused fume kill of the remaining vegetation. This also poisoned the soil which prevented regeneration. Without vegetation the soil eroded which created the "moonscape" zones in the Sudbury area. The same thing also happened in the Trail BC area which has a large Lead/Zinc smelter..
__________________________________
One struggle, many fronts.
Sun, 2009-12-06 14:11
#18
BTW most of the deforestation done in the area was the result of logging off the original white pine to rebuild Chicago after the great fire. The final damage was done when the mining industry was starting up and the companies were using open air roasting to burn off the sulphur from the ore. (They used the remaining stands of forest in the area).Open air roasting caused fume kill of the remaining vegetation. This also poisoned the soil which prevented regeneration. Without vegetation the soil eroded which created the "moonscape" zones in the Sudbury area. The same thing also happened in the Trail BC area which has a large Lead/Zinc smelter..
__________________________________
One struggle, many fronts.
Walking on the streets of Sudbury on a hot summer day in the 50's and 60's you could taste the air. I've seen pictures of Copper Cliff in the 20's where you could not see across the street because of the thick sulphur smoke.
Sun, 2009-12-06 16:07
#19
There were two theories regarding the deposition of the metallic suphide deposits in the Sudbury Basin. The geological department at INCO subscribed to the meteor impact theory. Falconbridge geology originally had a theory that postulated the Basin was formed by the eruption of three volcanoes. They were in the minority with this, and have in the end come to agree that the impact theory is likely correct. (obviously simplistic explanations.)
Thanks, My Cat.
I've always known a thing or two about my local geology, but for some reason I've been delving even deeper into the subject in the last year or so. After a kind of overview, I've decided to learn more about S/W Ontario first-- I think the geology is less complicated, and it's, well, where I live. Although, having said that, learning about post glacial sediments and stuff in S/W Ontario is probably as complicated as learning about the rock of the Canadian shield.
But it's funny, the more you know about how the land used to look, it helps you fill in the picture more. For example, I noted just last week that the locations of tooth and bone fragments from Mastodons found in Toronto pretty much mimic the terraces left behind there by lake Iroquios. The exceptions being fragments found at the mouth of the Don and Humber, obviously washed down from further up. And that other mastodon and mammoth finds tend to be on or near moraines-- and that there is but one west of a line generally marked by Hwy 23. Why? was there something about that part of Ontario back then that mastodons and mammoths found not to their liking? Or, is it some observational effect?
I haven't the foggiest as to why I want to know these things. But, it seems important to me.
The geology of Northern Ontario, or shall we say the Canadian Shield, seems uncomplex: a vast sheet of more or less homogenous rock. But that's hardly the case. The shield is made up of rock from various ancient continents and proto continents, and bear evidence of many orogenies and spreading. So, I'm leaving that for another day, for now.
Sun, 2009-12-06 20:08
#20
I wonder how many parallel universes there are - and are they getting tired of our space junk showing up on their doorsteps?
I think Stephen Hawking would suggest that the junk might slip through a worm hole and come out the other end of the galaxy or even other end of the universe. I'm not sure the universe has end boundaries? But then, as Hawking might propose, the space junk could return to us through a second worm hole and arrive a week or so before it entered wormhole number one. I imagine it could mean an increase in GDP though if the junk is ever dealt with properly. Sounds like a win-win situation as far as I can tell.
Sun, 2009-12-06 20:33
#21
I'm not sure the universe has end boundaries?
White Oaks subdivision, London.
Sun, 2009-12-06 20:57
#22
My Cat Knows Better
The exceptions being fragments found at the mouth of the Don and Humber, obviously washed down from further up. And that other mastodon and mammoth finds tend to be on or near moraines-- and that there is but one west of a line generally marked by Hwy 23. Why? was there something about that part of Ontario back then that mastodons and mammoths found not to their liking? Or, is it some observational effect?
A moraine consists of the material "bulldozed" by glaciers on their southward movement, (in this case during the last ice age). After the glaciers retreated, this pile of gravel, (more properly glacial till), is what is left behind. I am not sure why the mamoth fossils would be there precisely, as my geological studies in college were more or less limited to the structure and location of economic deposits. However, mamoths were a northern cold weather species, (most finds are in Siberia), and that might explain the location of the remains, as far north as the ice would allow...
Sun, 2009-12-06 21:41
#23
I think that if mastedon and mamoth remains are found on top of moraines, then it would mean the moraines were deposited first. I believe eskers, otoh, are a line of boulders and other till washed there with great force by glacial meltwater and runoff. But don't quote me. Some geologists believe there was a great tidal wave of runoff sometime around twelve? to sixteen thousand years ago that rushed down the Mississippi and dragged all kinds of stuff along the way to the Gulf of Mexico. Apparently they've found evidence of sudden change in salinity of water trapped in fossilized conodonts laid down in some thick layer of silt on the ocean floor which tends to support the theory. Prolly created a massive tidal wave travelling from the Gulf to the Middle East at the time and created a layer of silt on Mesopotamian shores several feet thick. Was the epic of Gilgamesh the origin of biblical flood mythos?
Sun, 2009-12-06 22:43
#24
My amatuerish and ill informed working hypothesis is that shortly after the Laurantide ice sheet left S/W Ontario, Mammoth and Mastodons moved into the area to take advantage of the grass and shrub environment, before trees could take over. Maybe they wintered south of the great lakes, like in the Ohio valley, and came north into S/W Ontario in the summer?
The connection to the moraines is that they would have been-- and still are-- the high ground, and make for easy travel. This part of Ontario seems flat-- and it is-- but even creeks here cut sharp and deep gullies. Anyone who's seen Big Otter Creek or Catfish Creek can attest to that. The closer to the moraine one is, the shallower the gully or there's no gullies at all. What I really need to do is produce a map of SW Ontario-- as it was 14 to 8 thousand years ago, complete with the drumlins and moraines, and now dissapeared lakes, and plot on it the remains of mamoths and mastodons that came from the field. Not just mammoths and mastodons, but other pliestocene critters, like wood musk ox and what have you-- if there are any. Maybe the absence of those other animals tells us something too.
If my strictly amatuerish and ill informed working hypothisis is more or less truish, that these animals were using moraines to travel or migrate on, then it might make sense from there that there were "choke points" or geographical "funnels" were predators could have set up shop, and where you'd find a higher incidence of fossils. An obvious place, for example, might be where crossing from S/W Ontario into South Central Ontario, over the escarpment, probably made for a few such choke points.
Sun, 2009-12-06 22:55
#25
Boom Boom
But then, as Hawking might propose, the space junk could return to us through a second worm hole and arrive a week or so before it entered wormhole number one.
My garden and compost heap are full of worm holes.
Sun, 2009-12-06 23:12
#26
remind
Preditors like?
Sun, 2009-12-06 23:34
#27
My Cat Knows Better
I think that if mastedon and mamoth remains are found on top of moraines, then it would mean the moraines were deposited first. I believe eskers, otoh, are a line of boulders and other till washed there with great force by glacial meltwater and runoff. But don't quote me. Some geologists believe there was a great tidal wave of runoff sometime around twelve? to sixteen thousand years ago that rushed down the Mississippi and dragged all kinds of stuff along the way to the Gulf of Mexico. Apparently they've found evidence of sudden change in salinity of water trapped in fossilized conodonts laid down in some thick layer of silt on the ocean floor which tends to support the theory. Prolly created a massive tidal wave travelling from the Gulf to the Middle East at the time and created a layer of silt on Mesopotamian shores several feet thick. Was the epic of Gilgamesh the origin of biblical flood mythos?
1. If the bones are found on top of moraines that is a logical assumption, but for purposes of this discussion we don't have enough information to assume that.
2. Eskers, no and I won't quote you. There are a number of ways eskers my be formed but I am not sure that your theory works.
3. There is evidence of quite a number of massive floods due to the failure of ice dams created by glaciers. There is a particularily good example of one fairly recent, in geological terms in Utah, I believe. there are massive boulders scattered about the landscape, (erratics) and signs of rapid erosion, (scouring) of valleys and wave action on the valley floors. Where you would run into trouble with you statement is trying to tie too many events into one package. All likely happened, but the timeline is what would trip you up. The biblical flood for example has been theorized to have occurred due to a rise in sea level at the end of the ice age that broke through at Gibralter and flooded the Meditteranean basin. There are also theories that this occured in the Black Sea... interesting but so far unproved, but science tends to be more theory than solid fact.
Sun, 2009-12-06 23:50
#28
My Cat Knows Better
My amatuerish and ill informed working hypothesis is that shortly after the Laurantide ice sheet left S/W Ontario, Mammoth and Mastodons moved into the area to take advantage of the grass and shrub environment, before trees could take over. Maybe they wintered south of the great lakes, like in the Ohio valley, and came north into S/W Ontario in the summer?
The connection to the moraines is that they would have been-- and still are-- the high ground, and make for easy travel. This part of Ontario seems flat-- and it is-- but even creeks here cut sharp and deep gullies. Anyone who's seen Big Otter Creek or Catfish Creek can attest to that. The closer to the moraine one is, the shallower the gully or there's no gullies at all. What I really need to do is produce a map of SW Ontario-- as it was 14 to 8 thousand years ago, complete with the drumlins and moraines, and now dissapeared lakes, and plot on it the remains of mamoths and mastodons that came from the field. Not just mammoths and mastodons, but other pliestocene critters, like wood musk ox and what have you-- if there are any. Maybe the absence of those other animals tells us something too.
If my strictly amatuerish and ill informed working hypothisis is more or less truish, that these animals were using moraines to travel or migrate on, then it might make sense from there that there were "choke points" or geographical "funnels" were predators could have set up shop, and where you'd find a higher incidence of fossils. An obvious place, for example, might be where crossing from S/W Ontario into South Central Ontario, over the escarpment, probably made for a few such choke points.
I am not certain that Mastodons migrated south for the winter. Being that they are extinct, its a bit complicated to determine with certainty. It is interesting that the Americans are trying to get a site with mastadon fossils recognized as a national heritage site; its in Waco, Texas.
Apparently, muskox made use of the same habitat as mastodon and are found in Siberia in the same area as mastodon remains. Muskox don't migrate south. What I am getting to is that timelines are significant when dealing with geological issues. Mastadons were on this planet for a long time before the last ice age. Plate techtonics, (continental drift) is an accepted theory. Nothing is constant but change occurs imperceptibly. (with the exception of climate change!). Your theory might be possible, but realize that moraines, being formed at the leading edge of glaciers, tend to run more or less east-west. Eskers, being formed either on top of or in some cases, by rivers of meltwater at the base of retreating glaciers tend to run north-south.
Mon, 2009-12-07 05:48
#29
There is a ballot initiative in Denver, Colorado that if successful with put in place a "Extraterrestrial Affairs Commision". Personally, I think that this was the result of the activities of the Tin Foil Hat brigade...
Here's a quote from one of the tinfoil hat brigade, [url=http://www.edmitchellapollo14.com/]Dr Ed Mitchell[/url], Apollo 14 astronaut and man on the moon:
"The U.S. Government hasn't maintained secrecy regarding UFOs It's been leaking out all over the place. But the way it's been handled is by denial, by denying the truth of the documents that have leaked. By attempting to show them as fraudulent, as bogus of some sort. There has been a very large disinformation and misinformation effort around this whole area. And one must wonder, how better to hide something out in the open than just to say, 'It isn't there. You're deceiving yourself if you think this is true.' And yet, there it is right in front of you. So it's a disinformation effort that's concerning here, not the fact that they have kept the secret. They haven't kept it. It's been getting out into the public for fifty years or more."
~ Imagine technology many centuries more advanced than our own that would allow travel to the stars, and that would solve our looming energy crisis, global warming, global inequalities, scarcity and more exists here on earth today. - Steven Greer, M.D. and spokesperson for the Disclosure Project
Imagine that "travel to parallel universes is not inconsistent with the laws of physics" - Michio Kaku, physicist
Mon, 2009-12-07 10:46
#30
My Cat Knows Better
"The U.S. Government hasn't maintained secrecy regarding UFOs It's been leaking out all over the place. But the way it's been handled is by denial, by denying the truth of the documents that have leaked. By attempting to show them as fraudulent, as bogus of some sort. There has been a very large disinformation and misinformation effort around this whole area. And one must wonder, how better to hide something out in the open than just to say, 'It isn't there. You're deceiving yourself if you think this is true.' And yet, there it is right in front of you. So it's a disinformation effort that's concerning here, not the fact that they have kept the secret. They haven't kept it. It's been getting out into the public for fifty years or more."~ Imagine technology many centuries more advanced than our own that would allow travel to the stars, and that would solve our looming energy crisis, global warming, global inequalities, scarcity and more exists here on earth today. - Steven Greer, M.D. and spokesperson for the Disclosure Project
Imagine that "travel to parallel universes is not inconsistent with the laws of physics" - Michio Kaku, physicist
I don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with believing in flying saucers or any other fringe science if it makes you feel better. My issue is with the people who think that everything is some sort of giant conspiracy meant to delude the public. These are in my opinion all distractions that take the spotlight off of the real issues that are confronting us. There are legitimate conspiracies out there. For example, our federal government has over the past several years become extremely closed to public scrutiny and has actively strived to limit public access to information. This is not to deny the existance of UFO's the like. It is meant to cover up issues of potential wrong doing in Afghanistan by our military and by extension, the government of the day. The climate denial story, is a conspiracy that appears to be fomented by corporate petro interests, not a conspiracy by scientists, (Huffinton Post story about Exxon denial funding and lobbying efforts). The issues that we face are real, the conspiracy theories are in most cases on the level of escapist literature on the same level as Harper's Romance novels.
If you still feel so inclined, there is a site worth checking out:
Mon, 2009-12-07 15:10
#31
I don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with believing in flying saucers or any other fringe science if it makes you feel better. My issue is with the people who think that everything is some sort of giant conspiracy meant to delude the public.
I agree. There is so much bafflegab out there that it makes it difficult for people to focus on issues that matter to ordinary people, and the majority of humanity. I think most people are wondering why elected governments around the world are so paternalistic. The real conspiracy is in our air, our water, the environment, and with tens of millions dying every year of an economic long run promised them as an article of faith while obscene profiteering and warfiteering continues to benefit a handful few. The conspiracy is with CEO's in the corporate and finance world taking taxpayers' money while laid off workers are left out in the cold. There is a very diabolical conspiracy being perpetrated against every living thing on earth in general. It's as if a relatively small group of people are practicing what Naomi Klein described as shock doctrinaire capitalism on a global scale. Is it that a group of elites are trying to "wipe the slate clean" worldwide? And for whose benefit in the long run?
Mon, 2009-12-07 18:46
#32
What I am getting to is that timelines are significant when dealing with geological issues. Mastadons were on this planet for a long time before the last ice age. Plate techtonics, (continental drift) is an accepted theory. Nothing is constant but change occurs imperceptibly. (with the exception of climate change!). Your theory might be possible, but realize that moraines, being formed at the leading edge of glaciers, tend to run more or less east-west.
Thank you, My Cat.
Many of the finds consist of just a tooth, found in a farmer's field, near (as far as I can tell from looking at a couple of maps) on or near moraines. It could well be that they were there before the Laurentide glacier, and they were pushed from elsewhere as part of the moraine making process. Teeth show up, because bones would have been pulverized.
Or, I was thinking that perhaps these teeth, being very much like rocks in shape, and being denser than other bones, get frost heaved like rocks here do, and that perhaps partial or even mostly complete skeletons might be in close proximity, about three or four feet below where the tooth was found.
Carbon dating, I guess, would tell one way or another, but my source that I'm working from has little of that data.
You are right about time lines being significant, and that's what I want to start sorting out. I have to get my hands on a copy of Chapman and Putman's book.