Video game's gay love scene stirs controversy
Wed, 2009-12-09 11:45
#1
Video game's gay love scene stirs controversy
Thu, 2009-12-03 23:27
#2
Ive got this game and its awesome. Haven't got to that scene yet though
Thu, 2009-12-03 23:54
#3
welder
I think I'll avoid that one...
Not really into the dudes doin' dudes
Fri, 2009-12-04 03:54
#4
Don't knock it 'til you try it, welder.
Fri, 2009-12-04 04:03
#5
RevolutionPlease
You might want to reflect on your candidness here welder. 
Fri, 2009-12-04 06:07
#6
I think I'll avoid that one...
Not really into the dudes doin' dudes
Nobody said you had to - and that's the point. It's an option - something you can choose in the relationship with that character.
Fri, 2009-12-04 17:56
#7
It's about time. Really, what year is this?
Fri, 2009-12-04 18:28
#8
remind
1984 
Fri, 2009-12-04 18:30
#9
I think I'll avoid that one...
Not really into the dudes doin' dudes
Nobody said you had to - and that's the point. It's an option - something you can choose in the relationship with that character.
Not to be confused with real life where orientation is a fact not a choice.
Sat, 2009-12-05 08:17
#10
welder
Don't knock it 'til you try it, welder.
No chance...
I like girls and at least one likes to hold still for me...
Sat, 2009-12-05 12:17
#11
bagkitty
I think I'll avoid that one...
Not really into the dudes doin' dudes
Well welder, you have very little to worry about. The type of slack jawed, mouth breathing, knuckle dragging attitude you represent would have only minority fetish appeal anyway. So avert your eyes, or move on to someplace like Free Dominion where you would probably feel more at home. Oh, and the next time you feel the need to demonstrate your 100% hetero male credentials, unzip and try writing your name in the snow... and here is hoping the windchill at the time exceeds -30.
Sat, 2009-12-05 14:47
#12
Maysie
I think I'll avoid that one...Not really into the dudes doin' dudes
welder, while this personal disclosure is oh so touching, it is, in fact homophobic. The fact that you just had to take up space in this thread with your homophobia tells me that the best advice to give you regarding this topic is to simply not post about it. Consider this a friendly warning. If this continues, the choice to post here will no longer be yours to make.
Oh, and welder, this?
I like girls and at least one likes to hold still for me...
Don't go there. Dude. Wafer-thin ice.
The type of slack jawed, mouth breathing, knuckle dragging attitude you represent would have only minority fetish appeal anyway.
bagkitty. You know how much I respect and value your voice on babble. And your oblique references to fetishes. 
But you can't refer to another babbler in this manner. Even if I agree with you in principle if not in execution. Thanks.
Sat, 2009-12-05 15:40
#13
Don't go there. Dude. Wafer-thin ice.
Huh? The guy's making a self-deprecating joke.
Put away the cudgel, please.
Sat, 2009-12-05 16:07
#14
bagkitty
But Maysie, I thought that was slightly more clever than just out and out accusing him of being a Neanderthal who had somehow figured out how to jockey a keyboard. I will try to be more concise in the future, and make more use of the flag as offensive button.
Sat, 2009-12-05 17:00
#15
Maysie
bagkitty
Sat, 2009-12-05 17:48
#16
Don't go there. Dude. Wafer-thin ice.Huh? The guy's making a self-deprecating joke.
Put away the cudgel, please.
Actually, no, that's not what the guy was doing. Sorry you don't like the moderation here, al-Q, but you're just going to have to lump it, and it sure would be nice if you wouldn't keep making snarky comments at Maysie, a volunteer moderator, every time she calls someone on writing something oppressive on babble. You don't have the best track record for recognizing that sort of thing yourself, so perhaps just keep your snark to yourself when the mods are doing their job here, please.
Sat, 2009-12-05 22:14
#17
What snark? The guy made a joke about how unattractive he is. This is oppressive?
Sun, 2009-12-06 00:34
#18
Timebandit
Um, yeah, gals, a wee tad over-reactive here. Chill already. Or maybe ask him to clarify, if you feel the comment was too cryptic - but how is it oppressive? Is he suggesting that women should submit to him? I didn't see that.
I also fail to see how what welder said was actually homophobic. He didn't say the male-on-male sex scene was sick or shouldn't be there or anything, just that it wasn't his cup of tea. So what?
Sun, 2009-12-06 03:04
#19
bagkitty
WTF!?!?
[ETA: I self-censored. Let's just say I am not really enamoured of the diminutive "gals" being employed in the current setting, and suspect that some posters' inability to see cannot be corrected with prescription lenses or laser surgery and is more likely treatable by removing their heads from the anatomically improbable setting it finds itself in. And yes, this is the self-censored version]
Sun, 2009-12-06 03:13
#20
welder
I was'nt aware that being heterosexual was a homophobic stance?'l let my gay friends know this...
I'm not really interested in watching men have sex with other men.I'm just not sexually attracted to other men.Sorry if that makes some here think me a knuckle dragging neanderthal!
And as far as the hold still comment..I'm punchin' wwwaaayyy above my weight with my wife...She's quite hot!And let's just say I clean up well...
Sun, 2009-12-06 03:46
#21
bagkitty
Nothing wrong with being heterosexual welder, being heterosexist is, however, a problem.
In the context of the current thread, the OP refers to controversy in the gaming community over the existence of a gay-positive portion of a video game (and from what can be gleaned from the linked article, a very small and optional portion of it rather than part of the main progression of the game). Almost immediately you have jumped into the discussion stating your intention to avoid the game... the only reason you give for avoiding it is that you will be exposed to "dudes doin' dudes" -- pretty much the base line definition of a homophobic reaction. There is always the possibility that you were attempting to be funny. You weren't. Your "gay friends" may have enough knowledge about your past actions and attitudtes to not be offended by what Maysie has characterized as your "personal disclosure". We don't have that information, and your posting does offend.
Sun, 2009-12-06 03:51
#22
welder
Sorry you're easily offended....I don't agree with you...Some of us are'nt interested in homosexual behaviour(not hateful,just indifferent)...You'll have to accept that,as I have to accept your "thin skin" on the subject.
Have a nice evening...
Sun, 2009-12-06 11:26
#23
Maysie
What bagkitty said at #21.
......
Ok. Looks like it's 101 Time.
Let's start with homophobia. No, it's not homophobic to be heterosexual, but going out of one's way to point out one's heterosexuality in a thread that describes the teensiest (first?) gay content in a mainstream video game, well, it sure doesn't seem like the work of a straight ally, hm? Also, repeated and deliberate distancing of oneself from anything to do with anything queer (or non-straight ) can't be anything but homophobic. If one really sees gay folks as regular folks one has no need to do such blatant emotional distancing.
And "my gay friends"? Really? Um, dude, that's like, so 1980s. And it was BS then too, by the way. See "my Black friends".
.....
I like girls and at least one likes to hold still for me...
Sexism. Gawd. I didn't think I'd have to break it down, but here goes.
"I like girls"..... (just in case we didn't already get that welder is heterosexual, see homophobia, above)
"at least one"..... while silly, kinda reeks of interchangeability. Also known as.... wait for it.... sexism.
"likes to hold still".... Um, WTF?
"for me" ...... really, do I have to continue?
Oh, ok, it's done. So much in a sentence so short, ill-informed and chock-full with unexamined sexism. Self deprecation notwithstanding. Men can be self-deprecating and still be sexist. Don't make me link to Woody Allen now.
Sun, 2009-12-06 12:46
#24
First. bagkitty, having read "The Clan of the Cave Bear", I would ask you to keep an open mind about Neanderthals. I think they've gotten a bad rap.
Second. Maysie, thanks for the 101. I always find it enlightening and grounding when you take the time to do that. It serves to remind people what the Babble Policy statement we all signed means in real day to day posting terms. I trust that for most it will be seen as a learning moment (productive) and not a defensive moment (unproductive).
Sun, 2009-12-06 12:55
#25
bagkitty
Don't be so quick to judge me oldgoat, I've had Neanderthal friends...
Sun, 2009-12-06 17:13
#26
welder
What bagkitty said at #21.
......
Ok. Looks like it's 101 Time.
Let's start with homophobia. No, it's not homophobic to be heterosexual, but going out of one's way to point out one's heterosexuality in a thread that describes the teensiest (first?) gay content in a mainstream video game, well, it sure doesn't seem like the work of a straight ally, hm? Also, repeated and deliberate distancing of oneself from anything to do with anything queer (or non-straight
And "my gay friends"? Really? Um, dude, that's like, so 1980s. And it was BS then too, by the way. See "my Black friends".
.....
I like girls and at least one likes to hold still for me...Sexism. Gawd. I didn't think I'd have to break it down, but here goes.
"I like girls"..... (just in case we didn't already get that welder is heterosexual, see homophobia, above)
"at least one"..... while silly, kinda reeks of interchangeability. Also known as.... wait for it.... sexism.
"likes to hold still".... Um, WTF?
"for me" ...... really, do I have to continue?
Oh, ok, it's done. So much in a sentence so short, ill-informed and chock-full with unexamined sexism. Self deprecation notwithstanding. Men can be self-deprecating and still be sexist. Don't make me link to Woody Allen now.
"See,"my black friends","....I'll talk that over with my wife...She's from Cameroon...
As for the rest...I'll have to chock it up to someone being far too sesnsative to understand a self-depricating joke.
Here's a tip for 'ya'...
Don't ever purchase tickets for a Don Rickles or Russel Peter's show.You don't have the intestinal fortitude...
Sun, 2009-12-06 18:21
#28
bagkitty
Damn, social gatherings chez welder must be like half of Noah's Ark... one of everything. The whole diverse human family is represented, and because they continue to be willing to deal with him, no need for him to ever examine what he says or thinks or "man-up" and acknowledge when he has crossed any line. If I write a real nice letter to Santa, do you think he will bring me a world just like that so I can inhabit the high ground too? I've been a moderately good boy all year and a nice little universe like that would really top things off for me.
Sun, 2009-12-06 18:29
#29
... a self-depricating joke.
You left out the "k".
Mon, 2009-12-07 10:00
#30
It turns out he's bisexual. Does that make it better?
Mon, 2009-12-07 12:23
#31
So is the female character if you play her. A friend has been playing and has had a lesbian encounter in a brothel already. At least I think it was in a brothel, it was with a courtesan though.
Mon, 2009-12-07 13:17
#32
Snert
Maybe I'm just too old, but do you do other things in the game? Solve puzzles? Collect Golden Keys? Slay stuff?
Or is it all just Elven booty calls?
Mon, 2009-12-07 13:50
#33
LOL yes, tons of that but they really try to include a lot of character development and role play in it
Mon, 2009-12-07 14:19
#34
It turns out he's bisexual.
The best of both worlds.
Mon, 2009-12-07 14:34
#35
Don't knock it 'til you try it, welder.
No chance...
I like girls and at least one likes to hold still for me...
Sorry when I read this it almost sounded like he was hinting at rape.
I played an online game for a while. A world of warcraft kind of persistant world. Hundreds of players doing quests making friends fighting all the fun stuff. There was a lot of Lesbian role playing. Female characters with female characters including all woman guilds. Not my thing personally but there was a lot of cybersex between the players. Some of it got pretty graphic to the point where the game masters [People who moderated the world} would have to step in and tell them to make it private.
The funny thing was that most of the lesbian female characters having lesbian cybersex with other females were played by male players. Both lesbian partners were male and they didn't seem to have a problem with it. Once in a while two male characters would engage in cybersex and it offended a lot of players and lots took issue with it.
Some players pulled off very feminate male characters and masculine female characters very very well and it was an interesting experience interacting with them. Reminded me of broadway actors. Other players were just gross and said and did things for the shock factor. No class.
Tue, 2009-12-08 23:31
#36
Yeah, not to belabour this, or to provoke a pile-on, but I was trying to put my finger on what bothered me about welder's comment as well, and it comes down to three things, some of which may overlap with Maysie's and Michelle's comments. I just mention it because it seems like others don't get the "sensitivity" here, either:
1) why the need to declare anything about your sexual orientation, especially if it has nothing to do with the topic in question (being games with lgbt content)?
2) the fact that you would state that orientation in a negative fashion, and by that I mean going so far as to say "I think I'll avoid that one..." Why would you need to avoid something if you're "indifferent" to it? Your two statements don't jibe; moreover, they confirm the tone and implied intent of your original statement, which does sound homophobic. People who are comfortable with their sexuality don't need to avoid interactive cultural content that may include the expression of a different sexual orientation. They may choose not to use that option, but they don't avoid the game entirely unless they object to it for some other reason.
3) the statement that one is "not into the dudes doin' dudes" is not helpful information in almost any context I can think of except perhaps a first-date/first-meeting situation ("By the way, are you into the dudes doing dudes?" "No way! I'm not into the dudes doing dudes! I'm 100% heterosexual!!") and therefore comes across as non-accepting and exclusionary. I'm not sure how that read for some of the Babblers here who may well be into dudes doing dudes, so I won't speak for them, but to me it felt divisive.
I won't get into the "hold still" comment: I'm sure it was meant in a self-deprecating humorous way, but too many levels of creepy there.
Wed, 2009-12-09 11:44
#37
I was going to say that I think that it's perfectly reasonable to discuss homophobic remarks if they're made, especially in the GLBT forum - then I realized this wasn't in that forum. So I'll move it there now. :)
Seriously though - thanks, PraetorianFour and jas, for speaking up. That is exactly what I thought when I read those comments too.
BTW, if your partner is merely "holding still for you" in bed, you're not doing it right.
Wed, 2009-12-09 13:23
#38
Avoiding countless hours of video gaming fun based on 30 seconds of possible homosexual content is homophobic. Players of the game do not have to enact the gay scene and nor does it constitute a majority of the story line...therefore giving it a pass because of some dudes doing dudes seems pretty homophobic to me. Especially when proclaiming your heterosexuality from the roof-tops as it were.
Wed, 2009-12-09 14:49
#39
bagkitty
Well Michelle, I would go a step further and suggest they should be discussed where and when they arise without really paying much attention to what category the thread occupies. It is, I think, something that should be challenged on the spot, rather than waiting until it has been assigned its bureaucratic pigeon hole. I think we have all grown accustomed to the way threads both evolve and drift...
Wed, 2009-12-09 15:05
#40
Oh, I agree with you that it should! I was just saying that it would be especially appropriate to discuss instances of homophobic speech in this forum, which is where I thought the thread was in the first place.
I wasn't moving it here because I thought it wouldn't be appropriate to challenge homophobia elsewhere. I moved it here because I felt that the subject of the thread belonged in this forum.
Please do feel free to challenge anyone on oppressive language when you see it, no matter where you see it on babble.
Thu, 2009-12-10 12:19
#41
If you ask me the term Homophobic gets thrown around way too much.
If you ask me 9 out of 10 guys who claim to be homophobs, aren't. My father is a huge guy at 6'2 ex football player type. If he crosses path with a spider he'll jump and hit the roof. THAT is a phobia.
Not liking "two dudes kissing" isn't being homophobic.
I'm not sure how much others here will agree but growing up being gay was always the top of the food chain insult you could get hit with in school with many of the students. Keep in mind I graduated in the 90, it's probably a bit more acceptable now.
Still, I'm always hearing you're gay you're a queen you're a fag. It's STILL an insult [Well used in that context] in the adult world. I hear it thrown around my work place all the time by men aged 18 to 48. He's being gay, this work is gay, thats a gay job. Even outside of the work place at social events.
I correct that kind of language anytime I hear it used when i am in a position to do so but it's such an accepted term [I find] that I've even heard bisexual and gay men I know use it in the above context.
Since "being gay" was made to be such an insult by so many people growing up I find men felt they had to prove how ungay they were. From hardcore verbal gay bashing to just having the need to proclaim that they aren't just straight, their HOMOPHOBIC.
Thats why when I see people claiming to be homophipic all I see is the end result of someone growing up feeling the need to tell everyone how ungay they are for fear of ridicule.
Again with my scientific stats! 9 time out of 10 when I speak with someone outside of a group setting who either hates gays claims to be homophobic or just has the need to tell everyone how gross it is- we always seem to come to the agreement that what someone does in the bedroom or behind closed doors is their own concern and it's dumb to even care about it.
Thu, 2009-12-10 12:34
#42
Maysie
P-four, thanks for that post.
The thing is, being homophobic (or racist, sexist, classist and more) isn't, like, the worst thing anyone could possibly be.
Our culture is homophobic (and racist, sexist, classist and more). Of course we (all of us, yes including me) have internalized those values, even as we reject them as we grow older.
My issue in pointing it out, both here and in my paid work and in my life in general, is to make visible what is invisible to us most of the time. I need such reminders myself, of course. Only then, can we hope to push past our early programming and begin to be allies with others and change the world. Seriously.
As for the word homophobic, as a word, textually, it's always pissed me off. It's not about a phobia, like arachnophobia, and it's not a "mental state" the way phobias are understood to be. It's also not (only) about fear.
Men calling each other various forms of insults relating to being gay, as well as various derogatory names that refer to women goes fairly far back in our culture. And it's homophobic (or sexist, or both) every time it happens.
Thu, 2009-12-10 12:57
#43
I agree, but the effect is the same. It's not the state of mind of the homophobe that's problematic, it's their words and actions. It promotes that same culture of homophobia.
edot: what maysie said.
As for the game, I can't wait to play it. I've thoroughly enjoyed everything Bioware has put out.
Final thought:
Well welder, you have very little to worry about. The type of slack jawed, mouth breathing, knuckle dragging attitude you represent would have only minority fetish appeal anyway. So avert your eyes, or move on to someplace like Free Dominion where you would probably feel more at home.
I understand where this sentiment comes from, but what happens if he takes your advice? Do we really want to be sending the uninformed off to be "educated", so to speak, at Free Dominion? This is a huge problem. People figuring out whether they are progressive or conservative or whatever find themselves alienated by progressives and told that they are in fact conservatives, so they start identifying that way. This is how people start identifying as conservative, and how one identifies and who one associates with will shape one's politics and attitudes just as much as one's attitudes and politics shape how one identifies. It's possible to tell someone certain comments won't fly here without sending them to the dark side.
Fri, 2009-12-11 01:36
#44
welder
Not really into the right wing kooks there,either....
Fri, 2009-12-11 08:57
#45
Maysie
Slightly off topic, but this is a video called "Sex with Ducks" that was just brought to my attention. The musicians, Garfunkel and Oates, are referring to Pat Robertson's comment that legalizing gay marriage would be the same as legalizing sex between humans and ducks.
OMFG it's sooooo funny!!
Fri, 2009-12-11 14:23
#46
bagkitty
Who gets to be the mallard and who gets to be the harlequin?
Thu, 2010-08-26 19:57
#47
Thu, 2010-08-26 19:58
#48