The Afghan people will win - part 16

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.e... handcuffed children in Afghanistan[/url]

Quote:

American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.
Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

I think the bastards are trying to create enemies where there are none. Motherfuckers!

Surge in casualties predicted in Afghanistan:

General Barry McCaffrey (retired) wrote:

Americans should prepare to accept hundreds of U.S. casualties each month in Afghanistan during spring offensives with enemy forces.

What I want to do is signal that this thing is going to be $5 billion to $10 billion a month and 300 to 500 killed and wounded a month by next summer. That's what we probably should expect. And that's light casualties, [says] McCaffrey, who is also president of his own consulting firm in Arlington, Va., and has conducted numerous trips to the war zones to assess the political and military challenges at hand.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/01/army_casualties_010410w/

Well, in the case of Barry McCaffrey, we shall see.

If we go by recent events, the earlier 21,000 troop surge in Afghanistan caused an escalation in the level of violence and an escalation in U.S. and NATO casualties. This allows us to make the relatively safe prediction that this current 30,000 troop surge will do the same.

My question remains to those who support the war: What is it about Afghanistan that makes this war so attractive?

To paraphrase Immanuel Kant, "While it cannot be said that war is not a universal evil, it can be said, without contradiction, that peace is a universal good."

Suicide Claims More US Military Lives Than Afghan War

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/suic-j06.shtml

"The toll of military suicides last year was the worst since records began to be kept in 1980.."

Military Suicides Up in 2008 (Canada)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/10/27/11546446-cp.html

Perhaps murdering for money doesn't sit well with some participants..

 

The West's Afghan War: From Conquest to Bloodbath

http://globalresearch.ca//index.php?context=va&aid=16839

"When the commander in Kabul asked Obama for extra troops, he knew the US would end up with one achievement, and that is more civilian casulties.

Every time an American soldier is killed they bomb an entire village.

This thing is going to be 5-10 Billion dollars a month and 300 to 500 killed and wounded a month by next summer. That's what we probably should expect.

And that's light casualties."

Afghan Resistance Statement: To Ban Ki Moon on Civilian Casualties:

http://occident2.blogspot.com/2010/01/afghan-taliban-response-to-united....

"UN Secretary Genarl Ban Ki Moon, in his recent assertions has said that at most 20 percent of civilian casualties in Afghanistan are caused by America and her allies and 80 percent by armed opposition. His assertion comes amidst demonstrations and protests against civilian casualties perpetrated by Americans.

Ironically, the head of an august world body like the UN claims to be neutral. He then brazenly tramples UN principles through his remarks in order to please the White House rulers.."

I don't think my war criminal MP is paying very much attention  to these matters. Is yours? If 'the Afghan people will win' - a lot more of them are going to die first.  If and when they 'win', it will likely not be because of any help from Canada. On the contrary...

Bombing the Land of the Snow Leopard - The War on Afghanistan's Environment

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01072010.html

"Shipping off 30,000 more troops to the land of the Taliban may be infuriating to devoted antiwar activists, but the toll the Afghanistan war is having on the environment should also force nature lovers into the street in protest..."

American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

Western military sources said that the dead were all part of an Afghan terrorist cell responsible for manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs), which have claimed the lives of countless soldiers and civilians.

Truly terrible if it turns out to be true.

Doug wrote:

American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

Western military sources said that the dead were all part of an Afghan terrorist cell responsible for manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs), which have claimed the lives of countless soldiers and civilians.

Truly terrible if it turns out to be true.

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr wrote:

This war, in many ways, is like another guerrilla war - the Philippine American War 1898-1902. In order to win, in both cases, it looks like the U.S. opted/is opting to fight a genocidal war:
http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/07/past-war-offers-afghanistan-lessons-and-its-not-vietnam/
The United States also won because it didn't just rely on military might. They found strong, local allies, historians say. They did so through a tactic called the "policy of attraction," according to a State Department account of the war. Under the policy, the United States introduced social reforms, economic development and permitted some forms of self-government. The policy won over key elites and other Filipinos, the State Department says. The United States also found local allies on the battlefield. It created an auxiliary Filipino military force called the Philippine Scouts to take on Filipino guerilla fighters, historians say

"Policy of attraction"? [url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C01%5C10%5Cstory_10-... denies secret talks with Taliban[/url]

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To a question, the British foreign secretary said he had never claimed Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden was in hiding in Pakistan, "but the Al Qaeda leader was also not in Afghanistan".

To another question, Miliband said his country would not ban the Hizbul Tehrir, as "we do not have any proof against the Hizbul Tehrir".

The Taliban played dirty with the Yanks when they asked for proof of bin Laden's guilt in 9/11. Later they offered to deliver bin Laden to them several times. I think Afghans and Pakistanis deserve more transparent and accountable negotiations between NATO, Taliban, and Saudi mediators. Who are the monarchist Saudis and ISI to mediate clandestine discussions with the Taliban on behalf of a nation of people led by a corrupt US-backed stoogeocracy? The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Canadians, our crimes against humanity are growing, and it is pretty damn sickening, literally..... after listening to CTV bleat about the Olympics and watching John Baird puttting out  a arrogant pufff piece, only to find that  compliant Canadian media  have obscuring this autrocity:

 

Western troops accused of executing 10 Afghan civilians, including children

Quote:

American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

The allegations of civilian casualties led to protests in Kabul and Jalalabad, with children as young as 10 chanting “Death to America” and demanding that foreign forces should leave Afghanistan at once.

President Karzai sent a team of investigators to Narang district, in eastern Kunar province, after reports of a massacre first surfaced on Monday.

“The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead,” a statement on President Karzai’s website said.

Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit.

 

 

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe?

Can you put your hand over your heart and say yes I believe US Soldiers dragged Afghanistan children out of their bed and exicuted them?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html
3 US navy seals are being court marshaled currently. They captured a high ranking Taliban [Or Al quaida, i don't even know. Objective Amber] and after he was in custody they roughed him up. Someone punched him in the face and gave him a fat or bloody lip. That's the extent of damage this man is claiming. No broken nose, crushed fingers, hulimiation like in that US tourture prison.
He was given a fat lip. His lawyer complained that they broke the geneva convention, commited a war crime and now 4 of the US's top "assassins" are being court marshaled.

The government is willing to drag it's special forces community through the mud over a fat lip yet you're telling me that 8 children were dragged from their bed and murdered and it's going to get swept under the rug?

I understand this thread is dedicated to Bad Canada supporting bad NATO in the bad US lead occupation but really?

I'm always open minded when I hear news articles. Both sides lie, we know that.
Remember this image? These two bullets hit this womans house following a US raid..
[img]http://whatthecrap.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/captsgekwe52140807225824p...

We can get back to the bad Canada and US in Afghanistan thread now but I hope if you believe the US is murdering children over there you step up and at least try to do something about it.

Seems so, could not say forsure though, but I do not want to smoke and mirrors this new autrocity and cover up, by having a side bar discussion about it in this thread.

 

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

 

Both have reasons to make things up for their benefit.

PraetorianFour wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe? Can you put your hand over your heart and say yes I believe US Soldiers dragged Afghanistan children out of their bed and exicuted them? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html 3 US navy seals are being court marshaled currently. They captured a high ranking Taliban [Or Al quaida, i don't even know. Objective Amber] and after he was in custody they roughed him up. Someone punched him in the face and gave him a fat or bloody lip. That's the extent of damage this man is claiming. No broken nose, crushed fingers, hulimiation like in that US tourture prison. He was given a fat lip. His lawyer complained that they broke the geneva convention, commited a war crime and now 4 of the US's top "assassins" are being court marshaled. The government is willing to drag it's special forces community through the mud over a fat lip yet you're telling me that 8 children were dragged from their bed and murdered and it's going to get swept under the rug? I understand this thread is dedicated to Bad Canada supporting bad NATO in the bad US lead occupation but really? I'm always open minded when I hear news articles. Both sides lie, we know that. Remember this image? These two bullets hit this womans house following a US raid.. [img]http://whatthecrap.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/captsgekwe52140807225824p... We can get back to the bad Canada and US in Afghanistan thread now but I hope if you believe the US is murdering children over there you step up and at least try to do something about it.

Yes, I do believe that U.S. soldiers murdered Afghan children. Note that articles covering this event state that U.S. soldiers believed that there were insurgents in that village and that they believed they were dealing with possible insurgents. Nowhere do the articles state that there actually were insurgents in the village at the time of the assault - so you can't blame insurgents for murdering those individuals. The forensic evidence - the bodies tell the world the ages and indentities of the slain. Sounds to me like a Phoenix type operation that went wrong.

It's more than just bad U.S.A., bad Canada, bad NATO, bad ISAF, bad Osama Bin Laden, bad Al-Qaeda, bad Taliban, etc. It is BAD WAR period.

I won't give you too many details, but I'll drop you some hints: I use the name Frmrsldr because I was given a 'voluntold' honorable discharge from the Army because top brass didn't dig what I had to say about the war.

Google the name Corporal Paul Demetrick and read his antiwar letter sent to the Toronto Star.

Afghanistan: NATO Intensifies Its First Asian War

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16959

"The US has the mightiest and most lethal military arsenal in human history at its disposal and the world's second largest standing army (only China's having more troops). It intends to spend over $700 Billion next year on its defense budget and will continue to add on special appropriations for the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

It also is in charge of the world's first global military bloc NATO, which is participating with the US in an expanding war in Asia with forces from over a quarter of the world's nations under its command."

Frmrsldr wrote:

Google the name Corporal Paul Demetrick and read his antiwar letter sent to the Toronto Star.

Good read. I remember this fellow, man he pissed a lot of people off! I think he had a hell of a back bone for speaking his mind I just think he didn't always fact check.
I wonder having never been to Afghanistan himself the accuracy of his commerades claims about bombing entire villages. I distinctly remember getting shot at and mortared from villages and having to STFU and ignore it because we didn't have the man power to go into the village and we sure as shit weren't going to shoot at the village.
I've caught a soldier I worked with posting on facebook about how we would randomly shoot into building windows in the city to try and keep snipers heads down while we moved through. Total bullshit. Young soldiers [especially reservists] seem to have a need to embellish their war stories. Lots of pressure on them at their home unit to return these big super commando war heros. Someone taking a couple of shots at you quickly turns into a full scale mrket garden type battle pretty quick when people get home and have a few beers in them.

I'll save it for another thread since this isn't the place. Frmslrd if you want to open a new thread about the accuracy of war stories or PM me about it or something that would be cool. I wouldn't mind hearing from Paul and getting a no bullshit account about what he heard either. Sounds like he has an interesting story, I'd like to hear how his peers treated him afterwards.

[url=http://www.thestar.com/Opinion/article/513548]Soldier says it's time to end Afghanistan war[/url] by Corporal Paul Demetrick, 2008

Quote:

"I love my country just like anybody else. But when I hear of things our troops have done in Afghanistan, I have to ask, "What kind of legacy do we wish to leave behind?" Some examples: we respond to hostile fire by indiscriminate bombing and shelling of villages, killing innocent men, women and children; we fire white phosphorus shells (a chemical weapon outlawed by the Geneva Conventions due to the horrific way it burns human beings) into vineyards where it was known Afghan insurgents were deployed; we hand over prisoners of war to Afghan authorities, who torture them; and we shoot and kill a 2-year-old Afghan boy and his 4-year-old sister. Do we want to be remembered for hating, killing and destroying, or caring, healing and helping with reconstruction?

The war in Afghanistan is a lie" ...

 

Afghan Resistance Statement: Response of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Concerning Desecration and Martyrdom of Innocent Civilians

http://al-tawbah.blogspot.com/2010/01/response-of-islamic-emirate-of_15....

"Americans have been trampling down religious, social, cultural and economic rights of the people under the notorious name of The War on Terror in order to bring people under their colonialist tentacles..

God willing we will give them unforgettable lessons for their crimes.

However, we remind people of the world that the world and Islamic Ummah are grappling with a crisis..

This crisis will come to an end only when the public of the world and the Islamic Ummah rise against the antihuman colonialist crimes of America and her invading allies.."

PraetorianFour wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe?

NATO: U.S. troops shot civilian protesters in Afghanistan's Garmsir District:

Jason Ditz wrote:

NATO has denied the Tuesday incident, but confirmed the Wednesday incident. It insists the Tuesday shootings are "under investigation" while the Wednesday shootings involved appropriate escalation against unarmed civilians.

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/01/15/nato-us-troops-shot-civilian-proteste...

Were Afghan children executed by U.S.-led forces? And why Aren't the media interested?

http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/4107

Quote:

Ignoring or downplaying Western crimes is a standard feature of the corporate Western media. On rare occasions when a broadcaster or newspaper breaks ranks and reports 'our' crimes honestly, it is instructive to observe the response from the rest of the media. Do they follow suit, perhaps digging deeper for details, devoting space to profiles of the victims and interviews with grieving relatives, humanising all concerned? Do they put the crimes in perspective as the inevitable consequence of rapacious Western power? Or do they look away?

WERE AFGHAN CHILDREN EXECUTED BY US-LED FORCES? AND WHY AREN'T THE MEDIA INTERESTED?

Rand McNally wrote:

As far as I can see there is never any attempt to define a winning condition for the Afghan people, except as the US et al, leaving.

Correct.

Quote:

However I don’t think that is what defines a winning condition for the Afghan people.

That's because you apparently feel (from reading your whole post) that the Afghan people are impoverished helpless violent savages who, without someone's benevolent assistance, are doomed to failure.

 

Quote:

The West has really just picked a side in a previously existing civil war.

What utter tripe. "The West" has invaded and dominated and pillaged Afghanistan for several centuries - and the Afghan people have always [b]won[/b] by driving them out in disgrace (British, Soviets...). The same sorry fate is upcoming for what you hygienically call the "West". Just watch.

Oh, by the way, you may wish to document for us the alleged "civil war" that raged prior to the Soviet invasion and concomitant U.S. intervention via proxy groups. Just because Afghans are such a desperately hopeless lot (from your eagle's nest anyway) doesn't mean they can begin to match the mass internecine slaughter engaged in every few years by your "West".

And "the West" hasn't just "picked a side". I pick a side when I cheer for the Habs. I don't pick a side by invading the arena and locker rooms, murdering the opposing team and any fans that get in the way.

"you apparently feel (from reading your whole post) that the Afghan people are impoverished helpless violent savages"
Yup, that is what I was going for, happy you could read my mind and distil out my true racist intent.

Saying that I think that the people will be still subject to violence, poverty or any other misfortune, is not the same as blaming the people or calling them violent or helpless or savages.

“The West" has invaded and dominated and pillaged Afghanistan for several centuries - and the Afghan people have always won by driving them out in disgrace (British, Soviets...). The same sorry fate is upcoming for what you hygienically call the "West". Just watch.
Oh, by the way, you may wish to document for us the alleged "civil war" that raged prior to the Soviet invasion and concomitant U.S. intervention via proxy groups. Just because Afghans are such a desperately hopeless lot (from your eagle's nest anyway) doesn't mean they can begin to match the mass internecine slaughter engaged in every few years by your "

Oh, give me a better title than the West, would it work better if I substituted imperialist fascist/communist/colonialist war-mongers.

Yes, there is lots of history, I never denied than, but, was simply referring to the current situation. Was there a civil war here before we got involved for this round of intervention, yes. Did we pick a side yes, would you be happier if I used actively supported a side. I am not saying Afghanistan will be still one of the worst places on earth to live in a decade because the people are dumb, savage, or stupid. I am saying that there has been so much damage done by years of intervention and civil war, I think it will be for a long time before the average Afghan WINS. I thought maybe I could for a moment rather than just using Afghanistan anti-Western punching bag, we could take a minute to remember that it is filled with real people, who a decade from now regardless how our involvement end will still be suffering the effects. I fear that by then most Canadian’s interest in the matter will have moved on, and most of us won’t care what the conditions the Afghan people are living under.

I think you read my post in such a way to purposely take offence, maybe you could try and reread it and consider that I never intended to degrade the people of Afghanistan in anyway.

By the way the USSR invaded in reaction to Mujahideen attacks against the socialist government. The civil war pre-dates the Russian invasion. Of course the central government was Soviet supported.

Rand McNally wrote:

Saying that I think that the people will be still subject to violence, poverty or any other misfortune, is not the same as blaming the people or calling them violent or helpless or savages.

Thanks for the clarification. Then if it's not their inherent violent or savage nature, what will (according to your unsubstantiated forecast) stop them from making progress after 10 years of being left alone by foreign invaders? The weather? Their lack of natural resources? Inadequate entrepeneurial spirit? Sun spots?

Quote:

Yes, there is lots of history, I never denied than, but, was simply referring to the current situation.

There is something very sad about that statement. Sort of like bemoaning the crumbling buildings and spreading disease in Port-au-Prince today, while not noticing the earthquake last week... let alone the foreign intervention and debt burden which aggravated the conditions for natural and human disaster.

Quote:

Was there a civil war here before we got involved for this round of intervention, yes.

Ummmmmmmm, I asked you document your statement. Repetition doesn't qualify as documentation. Of all the terrible things happening under Taliban rule, a raging civil war was the one I never heard of. Was it one of those secret civil wars - "need to know" only?

Quote:

I think you read my post in such a way to purposely take offence, maybe you could try and reread it and consider that I never intended to degrade the people of Afghanistan in anyway.

What offends me is your view that "we" need to ponder solutions for the Afghan people which they themselves are not capable of implementing if left alone. If I didn't know you and your intentions better, I'd say that views like that closely resemble the justifications given since time immemorial for colonial and imperial interventions. You know, it's just simply bloody amazing how people manage to survive once the Great White Thoughtful Benefactors have left or been driven out bleeding and screaming. I'll just never get over it.

Quote:

By the way the USSR invaded in reaction to Mujahideen attacks against the socialist government.

It's a wonder that Poland, China, and the NDP didn't send troops and tanks also. Socialism in peril from religious fanatics! Surely, all "socialists" must rise and fight! International law? Aggression? A mere trifle.

Quote:

The civil war pre-dates the Russian invasion. Of course the central government was Soviet supported.

My understanding is that the British wars of invasion in the 19th century were also defensive in nature - they were aimed at defending the cricket-playing Afghan regimes of that time from violent anti-cricketers, and helping women and girls go to cricket school. Had the civilized British philanthropists not been destroyed and run away in tears from the unsportsmanlike Afghan hordes, who knows how well Afghanistan would be doing in international matches today!!