Continued from here
Canadian parliament prorogued again: Part 4
Fri, 2010-01-08 13:46
#1
remind
Canadian parliament prorogued again: Part 4
Fri, 2010-01-08 13:55
#2
Have these quotes been posted in one of the earlier threads?
"The Liberals, apparently, want to prorogue the House. They want to run out of town, get out of town just one step ahead of the sheriff. Is the Liberal government committed to staying here as planned throughout the month of November so that it can be held accountable in the House for its actions?" (Stephen Harper, Hansard, October 20, 2003)
"Now is it true that the government will prorogue the House so that it will not be held accountable for its shameful record?" (Stephen Harper, Hansard, October 20, 2003)
"I'm pretty convinced now that they intend to prorogue and run away from accountability." (Jay Hill, Alaska Highway News, November 17 2005)
"It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they decided to prorogue Parliament... I'm sorry if I sound a little cynical... This is a government (for which) the rules of engagement don't apply. They'll move the goal post, change the boundaries and bribe the referee." (Peter MacKay, Nanaimo Daily News, July 18, 2005)
"It's like hitting tilt on a pinball machine... I think it's a bald-faced admission that the government doesn't really have an agenda and... that there's a few contentious bills that I think they just want to deep-six." (Peter MacKay, Canadian Press, September 16, 2002)
Fri, 2010-01-08 14:00
#3
Another Conservative backbencher speaks out-Colin Mayes:
Mayes says there is also a practical reason for suspending Parliament given that the Conservatives don't have a majority of the seats.
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/01/08/how-many-government-mps-does-it-take-...
Fri, 2010-01-08 14:02
#4
remind
As well prorogation is rarely used to close the place-- look at the dates-- most of the time it is used and the place sits only a few days later. some of Chretien's were followed right away by a new sitting -- no comparison.And it has not been used to this effect by a minority PM before (and that is significant because Harper cannot control the house).
The bolded part is pretty much what the professor emeritus from the U of T stated this morning on Canada Am in an interview with Shamus (sp?), though it is a distillation of his words.
He also stated, paraphrased, that Canada can no longer operate on "conventions" and that it must now, that Harper has abused Canadians and democracy, create laws that used to be conventions to stop such anti-democratic actions occuring in the future by minority governments.
And this aspect has given me pause to think about a few things again, beyond surface appearances.
Fri, 2010-01-08 14:23
#5
remind
As we can from the quotes above, the CONservatives were making accusations, that they themselves were planning on doing if they ever gained power.....
Fri, 2010-01-08 16:31
#6
It was inevitable...(WARNING:This is one of those "Hitler Downfall" videos)
Fri, 2010-01-08 16:51
#7
Hahahaha! Excellent. I know, it's an old meme, but that one is pretty well done. Some of them aren't great, and this one does have the occasional awkward part where there's too much "translation" for the number of words he's saying, but for the most part, it's really well done.
Fri, 2010-01-08 19:02
#8
Lou Arab
It was inevitable...(WARNING:This is one of those "Hitler Downfall" videos)
Every time I see one of these, I wonder what the original movie is. Anyone know? It looks pretty well done.
Fri, 2010-01-08 19:29
#9
Scott Piatkowski
Remind: It's spelled "Seamus".
In case anyone is wondering, the FB group is now at 115,724 members. It's current rate of growth is 20,000+ per day. If you have a free minute, try going to the group page and hitting refresh every five seconds or so. You can literally watch the group grow.
Fri, 2010-01-08 19:40
#10
It was inevitable...(WARNING:This is one of those "Hitler Downfall" videos)
Every time I see one of these, I wonder what the original movie is. Anyone know? It looks pretty well done.
Downfall
Fri, 2010-01-08 19:41
#11
Every time I see one of these, I wonder what the original movie is. Anyone know? It looks pretty well done.
It's called Der Untergang.
Fri, 2010-01-08 23:04
#12
Earlier it was mentioned that Harper might attempt to avoid the negative attention of Torturegate by attempting to hide the issue in the dwindling fig leaf of the "progress"(?) that is being made for Afghan women.
I think more Canadians are realizing - with the Sahria Familiy (rape) law and how badly things are going in Afghanistan in general - that this may not work this time.
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/01/07/afghan-women-turning-to-suici...
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/01/06/2009-deadliest-year-for-afgha...
Fri, 2010-01-08 23:13
#13
Le T
In case anyone is wondering, the FB group is now at 115,724 members. It's current rate of growth is 20,000+ per day. If you have a free minute, try going to the group page and hitting refresh every five seconds or so. You can literally watch the group grow.
It was interesting to hear a number of "pundits" dismiss the Facebook group as a "blip". I can't get over how complacent and stupid Canadian MSM is with issues like this. They practically helped sell the idea that coalitions were not democratic last time. Now they dismiss out of hand a Facebook group that probably has more members than most MP's have votes in the last election.
Fri, 2010-01-08 23:17
#14
Those are their tactics, dismiss and diminish. I think that we tend to be rather complacent but then when we feel threatened we get angry, it will be interesting to see what happens. I feel a Mulroney moment coming on. LOL
Fri, 2010-01-08 23:30
#15
![http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object2/1470/27/n260348091419_3725.jpg[/img]](https://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object2/1470/27/n260348091419_3725.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
Fri, 2010-01-08 23:48
#16
A comment from Facebook by Erik Snyder, "I don't know of any governmental body making such a big deal about the Olympics since, well...1937".
Sat, 2010-01-09 00:01
#17
It has nothing to do with the Olympics in my opinion. It was pure bully politics, everyone recognized it but him.
He should resign while he still has some dignity left.
Sat, 2010-01-09 01:03
#18
Le T
If Harper were to resign the CPC would be finished. He is the floodgate holding back an unelectable tide of rednecks and the people running the campaign know it.
Sat, 2010-01-09 01:24
#19
Another Conservative backbencher speaks out-Colin Mayes:
Mayes says there is also a practical reason for suspending Parliament given that the Conservatives don't have a majority of the seats.
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/01/08/how-many-government-mps-does-it-take-...
I'm so tired of hearing about the Olympics.
Why do the Conservatives think the whole world revolves around it? I don't ever remember this much talk about an Olympics before.
Sat, 2010-01-09 01:28
#20
Diogenes
Also posted in this thread but it applies to this one too.
From the Nanaimo News:
MP's working while Parliament down
Parliament may be prorogued, but local Members of Parliament say they are still working hard for their constituents.
An assistant to Nanaimo-Alberni Conservative MP James Lunney said Lunney is in Israel, fulfilling his obligations as chairman of the Canada-Israel Interparliamentary Group and as a member of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.
LOL - working hard for his constituents in Israel? Planning more funding cuts to christian NGO groups who dare to criticize Israel?
Sat, 2010-01-09 01:45
#21
I'm still laughing pretty good over der untergang. "All of you who considered challenging for the leadership, leave the room now!" Pffff! ha ha
Sat, 2010-01-09 03:40
#22
Few Countries Can Claim Such a Pathetic Parliament
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/few-countries-can-claim-suc...
"Our parliament has become the most dysfunctional in the English speaking world - weaker and more irrelevant than the US Congress or the parliaments of Britain, Australia or New Zealand...Canadian MP's cower at the hands of the party whips, and parliamentary investigations are so ineffectual that the only hope of getting to the bottom of anything is to pressure a prime minister into calling a public inquiry. "
Sat, 2010-01-09 09:33
#23
Frustrated Mess
Another Conservative backbencher speaks out-Colin Mayes:
Mayes says there is also a practical reason for suspending Parliament given that the Conservatives don't have a majority of the seats.
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/01/08/how-many-government-mps-does-it-take-...
That's the either the most pathetic thing I've ever read, or the greatest. I mean, on one hand, this so-called MP is saying parliament is prorogued for the olympics, scraping the bottom of the barrel for their bullshit. But on the other hand, all of Canada has just been invited to stay home from work and watch TV sports.
Sat, 2010-01-09 09:35
#24
Another Conservative backbencher speaks out-Colin Mayes:
Mayes says there is also a practical reason for suspending Parliament given that the Conservatives don't have a majority of the seats.
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/01/08/how-many-government-mps-does-it-take-...
I'm so tired of hearing about the Olympics.
Why do the Conservatives think the whole world revolves around it? I don't ever remember this much talk about an Olympics before.
As someone else said, since 1937 has any government made such a big deal about the Olympics?
Sat, 2010-01-09 11:26
#25
124,708. ETA - 125,011
Last year, the pro-Harper, anti-coalition FB group got 127,000 members and a lot of fanfare from the media to "prove" that Canadians opposed the coalition.
Of course, the standards for democrats are always higher. Want to change the electoral system? You need at least 60% of voters. Want to run the country? You need 35%.
ETA: I attended the Toronto planning meeting for the January 23 rally. There must have been 200 people present. Facebook was the enabler - the tool - not the final objective. Of course, no matter how large the rallies, they will be dismissed by Harper's seal brigade.
Sat, 2010-01-09 11:27
#26
Frustrated Mess
Want to change the electoral system? You need at least 60% of voters. Want to run the country? You need 35%.
I just thought that beared repeating.
Sat, 2010-01-09 11:39
#27
Of course, the standards for democrats are always higher. Want to change the electoral system? You need at least 60% of voters. Want to run the country? You need 35%.
Spare a thought for the unfortunate Bernard Lord, a Progressive Conservative democrat who actually favoured PR, and who planned to hold a referendum needing only 50% to pass, which he said was "the normal way we make decisions in a democracy." But then he had to call an election earlier than he planned, and -- lost power in a wrong-winner election, where the Liberals got fewer votes but more seats. A tragedy of Shakespearean dimensions, almost.
Sat, 2010-01-09 12:57
#28
Harper has finally painted himself into a corner.
So far he has been able to govern only because the opposition does not want to be responsible for yet another election. While avoiding an election, Harper has been hoping to use his time as a minority leader to establish credibility with Canadians. Now that credibility is pretty much eroded. It will be even further eroded once Parliament reconvenes. This is because the detainee investigation will either continue under opposition control, or it will be cancelled by the new Conservative appointed committee chair. Either outcome will be a difficult sell for the government.
At that point Canadians will(hopefully) have said "enough is enough" and be willing to participate in yet another election just to rid themselves of this government. If the next election results in fewer seats for the Conservatives, then it will be difficult for the Governor General to refuse a proposal to form a minority government that is composed of the Liberals, the NDP, and the Bloc. The Coalition knows this and they will be emboldened by it, even if "Iggy" is not particularly popular.
I doubt very much that Michaelle Jean ceded to Harper's demands for a second prorogation without some hesitation. I noticed that she kept a very low profile during and after the announcement. A third request will probably be met with a refusal(or a vote of non confidence). A request to form a government with a reduced Conservative caucus will probably be rejected as well.
Expect an election before the end of 2010.
Sat, 2010-01-09 13:18
#29
If the next election results in fewer seats for the Conservatives, then it will be difficult for the Governor General to refuse a proposal to form a minority governmentI wouldn't be so sure of that if the conservatives still end up with even one more seat than the libs (or NDP). I would no under-estimate Harper for a moment. I doubt the G-G even flinched because to deny Harper's request would also set a precedent - one with implications down the road that we might not like.
Whatever the electorate has to say doesn't seem to really matter as long as the parties all agree that there will not be an election any time soon. Partisan interests will always trump those of the voters and the country under this first past the post system. Harper is using, and will continue to use the opposition's fear of an election to push the envelope as far as he can. I would expect the worst in the next budget.
Sat, 2010-01-09 13:20
#30
That's the either the most pathetic thing I've ever read, or the greatest. I mean, on one hand, this so-called MP is saying parliament is prorogued for the olympics, scraping the bottom of the barrel for their bullshit. But on the other hand, all of Canada has just been invited to stay home from work and watch TV sports.
But they're getting paid to do it
Sat, 2010-01-09 13:23
#31
The best part of the Colin Mayes story:
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
Sat, 2010-01-09 13:31
#32
that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa
Which I suppose makes it a "national security" issue. At least he was honest enough to admit it. So, are the conservatives all getting free Olympic passes or something?
Sat, 2010-01-09 13:54
#33
If the next election results in fewer seats for the Conservatives, then it will be difficult for the Governor General to refuse a proposal to form a minority governmentI wouldn't be so sure of that if the conservatives still end up with even one more seat than the libs (or NDP). ...I doubt the G-G even flinched because to deny Harper's request would also set a precedent - one with implications down the road that we might not like.
The Governor General does have some discretionary power. I doubt that she will perpetually grant prorogation requests if they are so obviously self serving for the governing party. Similarly, she can opt to allow the opposition to form a governing coalition if it is viable, especially if the previous minority governing party is losing electoral support. I am not a constitutional scholar or historian, but it seems reasonable to me.
I am not sure if there are any precedents for this sort of assertivenes or independance on the part of the Governor General. If the Governing party is going to take it upon itself to push the envelope in terms of what is allowed by constitution or by established tradition, should anyone be surprised if the Governor General responds in a similar manner?
Sat, 2010-01-09 14:05
#34
Une centaine de professeurs de droit, de sciences politiques et de philosophie montent aux barricades, craignant que le premier ministre n'affaiblisse de manière irrémédiable les institutions démocratiques du Canada.
Dans une lettre ouverte qu'ils doivent en principe publier dans La Presse lundi mais dont Le Devoir a obtenu copie, ces universitaires écrivent: «Considérant que le bien public n'est pas servi d'aucune manière plausible (par la prorogation), nous concluons que le premier ministre a trahi la confiance du peuple canadien et qu'il a donc agi de manière antidémocratique.»
Sat, 2010-01-09 14:49
#35
remind
So only about 2000 more to go in order to decimate the 127,000 of the alleged anti-coalition joiners, eh.
Sat, 2010-01-09 17:27
#36
130,000 and counting
Sat, 2010-01-09 17:53
#37
Another Conservative backbencher speaks out-Colin Mayes:
Mayes says there is also a practical reason for suspending Parliament given that the Conservatives don't have a majority of the seats.
"The Olympics are a great celebration and it would be a real conflict for MPs to be there in a minority situation," he said, adding that could lead to the opposition having more MPs present in Ottawa.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/01/08/how-many-government-mps-does-it-take-...
I'm so tired of hearing about the Olympics.
Why do the Conservatives think the whole world revolves around it? I don't ever remember this much talk about an Olympics before.
As someone else said, since 1937 has any government made such a big deal about the Olympics?
I think the stupidest comment I have seen so far was the one made by Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro. I'll see if I can find the exact quote, but he basically said that since the Olympics are coming up, we might as well shut down Parliament.
Sat, 2010-01-09 17:57
#38
remind
well now, Canadians for democracy have now beaten out the Con war room of last year and have said; "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on us", and are clearly telling Harper he is way off base, this should be incentive for the Opposition MP's to get their butts in gear and move on it too.
However, I really think Iggy has bambozzzled the Liberal Party higher ups, and think he will again sabatoge them as an Conservative, aka corporate agent provocateur
Sat, 2010-01-09 18:04
#39
Ignatieff is certainly not the leader that the Liberals need right now, and he may never be able to do well enough to convince Canadians he is much better than Harper.
It appears that neither Harper nor Ignatieff are that well-loved, and hopefully both will be replaced by their respective parties after the next election.
I do hope that Ignatieff is able to keep Harper to a minority though, as that will speed up Harper's departure. Then perhaps the Conservatives will look for a new leader and the Liberals will hopefully find a new leader more worthy of the position, as well as someone who has the progressive credentials and charisma to connect with voters.
Sat, 2010-01-09 18:40
#40
[url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/Harper+thing+going+Ignatieff/24182... has one thing going for him: Ignatieff[/url]
Herr Harper fancies himself a Roman battle line tactician. And he's so good at it that he's out-maneuvering even himself. Crazy like foxes these conservatives are.
Sat, 2010-01-09 19:22
#41
Sat, 2010-01-09 21:23
#42
...the Liberals will hopefully find a new leader more worthy of the position, as well as someone who has the progressive credentials and charisma to connect with voters.
Justin Trudeau as the next Liberal leader? Then Canada can be ruled by elected 'royal families' like the United States...
The Liberals have moved so far to the right that they are in danger of becoming irrelevant. The NDP just needs to find somebody with charisma and credibility, who will not 'frighten' center left voters. The more I see of Paul Dewar the more I like. He seems to be more genuine than Jack Layton.
Sat, 2010-01-09 21:47
#43
Jack Layton is quite genuine. He suffers from a little to much energy and a little to much scripting sometimes but to suggest he is not genuine does not reflect my personal experience with Layton.
I do think this is a time for Jack Layton to demonstrate really bold leadership and speak directly from the heart about the kind of Canada we could have. I don't mean sloganeering stuff like a 'green and prosperous Canada where no one is left behind". But rather honest to goodness descriptions of how we could be better. To paraphase Abraham Lincoln we need a leader who will appeal to our better angels. I've seen him do it, I know it is in him. Time to throw away the speech and talk to Canadians when many more than usual are listening.
Sun, 2010-01-10 00:18
#44
...the Liberals will hopefully find a new leader more worthy of the position, as well as someone who has the progressive credentials and charisma to connect with voters.
Justin Trudeau as the next Liberal leader? Then Canada can be ruled by elected 'royal families' like the United States...
The Liberals have moved so far to the right that they are in danger of becoming irrelevant. The NDP just needs to find somebody with charisma and credibility, who will not 'frighten' center left voters. The more I see of Paul Dewar the more I like. He seems to be more genuine than Jack Layton.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular - just someone other than Michael Ignatieff. It could be Justin Trudeau, or it could be someone else of the same generation like Dominic Le Blanc or Mark Holland or Gerard Kennedy. But they do need someone who is more articulate, passionate and charismatic, and who can actually connect with voters.
But if Justin Trudeau were to take over, it would hardly be like having a royal family. It's not as if the children of Prime Ministers regularly get elected. It's only happened once before, and it has only happened once or twice in the whole history of the United States. It's not very common.
Sun, 2010-01-10 11:43
#45
I don't particularly mind Justin Trudeau even though he strikes me as an intellectual and political lightweight compared to his father. At least he would have his father's legacy to try to live up to and perpetuate. If that includes a reinvigorated role for the state then it can only be a good thing. A government that is unafraid of corporate power is only a distant memory in Canada today.
I don't see "Iggy" changing that in the near future. He has absolutely no vision whatsoever. EI reform? Give me a break. Tax hikes on the corporate and high income earners are the solution to much of Canada's financial problems, not EI reform.
The best that we can hope for I think is a Liberal minority government with NDP members in cabinet positions. That would give the NDP much needed credibility as a party that is ready for the responsibility of Federal power. It would also push the Liberals to the left and force them to cater to the voters instead of the corporations.
Sun, 2010-01-10 11:50
#46
remind
Why are people even thinking of promoting the same 2 parties that have destroyed Canada over the last 40 years?
Sun, 2010-01-10 11:53
#47
Boom Boom
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular - just someone other than Michael Ignatieff. It could be Justin Trudeau, or it could be someone else of the same generation like Dominic Le Blanc or Mark Holland or Gerard Kennedy. But they do need someone who is more articulate, passionate and charismatic, and who can actually connect with voters.
Martha Hall Findlay and I are Facebook friends, and I enjoy reading her posts and comments. She'd be my choice for Liberal leader if I had a vote (which I don't because I took out an NDP membership).
Sun, 2010-01-10 12:31
#48
Why are people even thinking of promoting the same 2 parties that have destroyed Canada over the last 40 years?
I am not "promoting" the Liberal party. I am just being realistic in my expectations of who Canadians are willing to vote for. An NDP or Green Party government is simply not in the immediate future for Canada. They should both concentrate on winning seats and supporting a Liberal minority government that is held accountable by it's junior partners. It sure beats the current arrangement where a Conservative minority government governs as if it had a Parliamentary majority. I am not naive enough to think that the difference would be all that significant, but at least it would be better.
Sun, 2010-01-10 13:15
#49
The best thing we can "hope for" --??? Don't set your sights so low. I will hope for the party I vote for to win. The chance of getting what I hope for is slim but hope is too good a thing to waste on compromise. Maybe that's why we never get what we want becasue we dare not even hope for it.
Things are very fluid-- the Liberals are only 6-12% higher than the NDP in the polls. Layton is more popular than Ignatieff. Why not hope for an NDP minority. Somebody has to win. If the Cons are finally discredited and show for waht they are and the Liberals still have a weak leader-- why could we not "hope" the NDP can close the 15% they are behind the Cons and pass the Liberals in the process? There really is not a great script for the Liberals to win-- if we are going to go for a great new story for the country-- let's imagine a good one not a repeat of the same pendulum going back and forth on the right end of the room. Let the ball come to the people for a change-- and the first step is to hope for that; the second is to believe it is possible, the third is to work to make it possible and the last is to make it come true.
Get inspiration form the fact that Canadians seem to be getting fed up with this government-- it may be a turning point. There is no reason to go back to the Liberals now.
Sun, 2010-01-10 13:35
#50
...the Liberals are only 6-12% higher than the NDP in the polls. Layton is more popular than Ignatieff. Why not hope for an NDP minority.
Polls are one thing and elections are another. An NDP minority is preferrable to a Liberal minority, but is far less likely.
Sun, 2010-01-10 14:19
#51
read the rest of my post please-- the context is your answer--
if people don't reach by hoping for what they want the compromise will be a compromise on a compromise.You have the power to dream and hope use it to the fullest-- everything else is more difficult. In the darkest days of any country's experience peole hoped for better even though it was unlikely-- and then things changed.