Why must I be inconvenienced by workers unhappy in their jobs?

104 posts / 0 new

Fri, 2010-01-08 20:41

rural - Francesca rural - Francesca's picture

This was in the Owen Sound Sun Times, it's not linked on the public and free side of the site, so I've included it in its entirety.

Why must I be inconvenienced by workers unhappy in their jobs?

I wasn't allowed to wash my car today. There was an extortion in progress. A bunch of guys were blocking the entryway and threatening the car wash owner. If he didn't give them money, they would destroy his business.

Of course the police could do nothing. Because these weren't ordinary guys; these were union guys. On strike.

Geez. I now understand why they call it "Organized Crime." They've unionized it.

Lucky for those guys at the car wash, I am filled with the milk of human kindness around New Year's. Any other time I would have just gunned the engine (in neutral of course) and watched them scatter.

I don't understand why I should be inconvenienced by a bunch of people who are unhappy with their jobs.

But that's the problem with a lot of die-hard unionists, in my opinion. They are unhappy with their jobs, and, in fact are unhappy with the idea that they have to work at all.

That's why they believe in the eternal union promise: join us and you will get more and more money. For doing less and less work.

(I have stolen this thought from Rush Limbaugh, which, in the eyes of millions, makes it akin to Scripture.)

And it certainly has been gospel truth in my experience with unions. In my five or six union jobs, the union reps always told us that the next contract negotiation was going to get us more money, more benefits, and more goodies, along with a shorter work week, more paid holidays and longer breaks. Or else we'd go on strike and cripple the business.

What's wrong with this picture?

Obviously, it's totally unsustainable. No business can survive by paying more and more money for less and less work.

We know exactly what happens if they try. They become non-productive, non competitive, and broke. Can you say 'Detroit'?

It's not surprising to me that most of the companies showing profits and actually hiring right now, are the companies that have no unions. Consider Wal-Mart. While most retailers were losing money, Wal-Mart profits were up in 2008 and 2009. They are opening more stores, while unionized retailers are closing stores. They are hiring while unionized companies are laying off.

Could there be a connection here? Ya think?

A few weeks ago, on Friday, Nov. 27, Canada's Supreme Court ruled that Wal-Mart was well within its rights to close that store in Jonquière, Quebec where the employees had voted in a union.

I for one, applaud that decision. It's a perfect record. Wal-Mart: 7437 stores. Union: nothing. And that union? Local 503 of the United Food and Commercial Workers, which got in by claiming it was helping WalMart workers: Did that union help those 109 members who were suddenly out of a job when the store was closed? No. Look at all the union guys in Owen Sound who have been thrown out of work in the last few years. Are their unions helping them? No. Unions only help themselves. And the cure is simple. If you can vote them in, you can certainly vote them out.

And if you don't want to do that, well then, you can man up and face the terrible consequences: you can be the one to explain to my wife why our car is still dirty.

Fri, 2010-01-08 20:45

oldgoat

why gosh..........I hadn't ever realy though of it that way. Say, this person's logic is quite seductve r_F . I think they're on to something!

I mean, Rush Limbaugh...

Fri, 2010-01-08 20:56

Todrick of Chat...

Here is the link to the article:

Why must I be inconvenienced by workers unhappy in their jobs?

Fri, 2010-01-08 21:01

Le T

I just heard some Humber college student on the CBC today who had started a Facebook group in advance of a possible strike by the Ontario college teachers' union. Although he tried to pretend that "there are problems with both sides [admin and workers]" it was clear that he was most upset that his life might be effected by his teachers' labour dispute.

I also lived through the most recent Toronto civic strike, in which some of the most anti-union views were continually broadcast on all media.

It has become normal in our society that total outrage to the point of violence is more or less acceptable if you can't get your Wal Mart trinkits, can't get your diploma on time, or can't get your never ending pile of refuse removed from your front lawn. Media has helped make that normal.

I guess my question is, why repost this selfish asshole's angry whining?

Fri, 2010-01-08 21:45

Tommy_Paine

Why must I be inconvenienced by stupid right wingers who are only happy when they can spread unhappiness to someone else?

I used to have sympathy for students in these situations, but not anymore. They delight in taking an anti union stand, and getting involved on management's side.

I say that, because it's plain to me that the student's issue has nothing to do with the labour dispute. They've paid in advance for a service that the College or University is not delivering. It may be breach of contract, or fraud, or theft, but for students to lose sight of that, and start wieghing in on the labour dispute is falling right into the confidence game.

I say confidence game because the College or University has got it's income for the fiscal year, yet for the duration of the strike-- the duration of which they have a lot of control over-- they are not paying out wages and there's probably some overhead savings as well.

You'd be in dreamland not to think that a good portion of that "found" money doesn't end up as a bonus in the College or University presidents and HR directors pockets.

Fri, 2010-01-08 22:15

Aristotleded24

Tommy_Paine wrote:
I say that, because it's plain to me that the student's issue has nothing to do with the labour dispute. They've paid in advance for a service that the College or University is not delivering. It may be breach of contract, or fraud, or theft, but for students to lose sight of that, and start wieghing in on the labour dispute is falling right into the confidence game.

It's also common that the poor, hungry student is pitted against the well-paid instructors who have a comfortable job and working conditions most people do not. When I went to Brandon University, both the faculty and student associations were very good about not playing into this.

Fri, 2010-01-08 22:51

G. Muffin

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Why must I be inconvenienced by stupid right wingers who are only happy when they can spread unhappiness to someone else?

Tommy, have we met? I'm the Pie.

You've made a typo and I'm too polite to snicker. What should I do?

You've made an error on the Internet.

Fri, 2010-01-08 22:52

Michelle

Sorry, but the job is someone's life. A semester of school is a semester of school. When professors strike, it's because this is their livelihood in their full-time job that is at stake, not just a youthful semester of school - and that's not saying that a semester isn't important. I realize it is, and that school is getting really expensive - and you'll probably find that most professors are allies of the students when it comes to campaigns against rising tuitions.

When students who complain about strikes get into the labour force and discover that it's hell paying back their student loans on their income, then they'll probably understand why people like professors and university staff fight hard for decent wages and good jobs. Because the people who are teaching them, and the staff that is helping them navigate the system are just people who were in their shoes once, and now bear the student loans and debts to prove it.

Good jobs are important. I have no interest in guilt trips from those students who are happy to see management force university staff and faculty into a race to the bottom when it comes to wages and benefits. Suck it up, kids - the real world just gets worse unless you fight back and support others who are fighting back.

Fri, 2010-01-08 23:23

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

These days many of the students in community colleges are former union members who've been laid-off due to the ongoing crisis in the manufacturing sector.

Many of these unemployed union members have been through strikes and struggles of their own over the years and so I suspect that from this group of students there'll be alot of sympathy with the instructors.

From what I've seen of the assorted "anti-strike" student groups that have formed over the years during university/college strikes, most of them are formed by students from relatively well-off backgrounds.

They all feign neutrality, but all of their demands are usually anti-union and anti-worker...calling for back to work legislation etc.

Fri, 2010-01-08 23:51

#10

Tommy_Paine

G. Muffin wrote:

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Why must I be inconvenienced by stupid right wingers who are only happy when they can spread unhappiness to someone else?

Tommy, have we met? I'm the Pie.

You've made a typo and I'm too polite to snicker. What should I do?

You've made an error on the Internet.

It wasn't a typo, Muffin (that sounds overly familiar doesn't it, like an endearing nickname) it was a spelling error. Thanks for the benifit of the doubt though.

I used to use spell check, and I felt it lent my words added authority. I also felt it made me feel like a phoney.

Here I am, Muffy wuffy, warts and all.

Sat, 2010-01-09 00:00

#11

Le T

Quote:
From what I've seen of the assorted "anti-strike" student groups that have formed over the years during university/college strikes, most of them are formed by students from relatively well-off backgrounds.

They all feign neutrality, but all of their demands are usually anti-union and anti-worker...calling for back to work legislation etc.

Yes. I have also suggested on other threads that this cohort of students (the wealthy ones, i.e. most) are used by their ruling class parents in more ways than just busting up strikes with Facebook and petitions. They also will work for nothing because they are "slumming it" as students, thus creating a pool of workers who will work for crap pay.

Sat, 2010-01-09 08:31

#12

abnormal

radiorahim wrote:

These days many of the students in community colleges are former union members who've been laid-off due to the ongoing crisis in the manufacturing sector.

Many of these unemployed union members have been through strikes and struggles of their own over the years and so I suspect that from this group of students there'll be alot of sympathy with the instructors.

I suspect you're going to find this group hit both extremes. The first is as you describe, the second is the "They should be happy to have a job (after all, I'm here because I don't) and this strike is stopping me from finishing so I can find work and feed my family". And if a strike drags on you can expect to see more students shifting from the first group to the second.

Sat, 2010-01-09 10:40

#13

ennir

Sigh, if only there were more workers like the five who fell in Toronto, grateful for the opportunity just to work, unaware they had rights to refuse work in dangerous situations, yes pity the poor capitalist without a conscience who feels free to use others in such a way, how inconvenient for them when faced with a population aware of their rights.

The writer of that article should spend a day on a thirteen story scaffold without fall protection.

Sat, 2010-01-09 10:58

#14

Polunatic2

First, I don't know why such drivel is posted on babble. Rush? Limbaugh? Take it Frito Minion.

But since we're discussing it, I would add that today's students are tomorrow's union members. Unions ought to be doing what they can not to alienate students when there are labor disputes. I strongly disagree with the characterization above that students are no different from shoppers looking for deals on trinkets at walmart. And if Walmart were unionized, would we still disparage the shoppers? No shoppers? No jobs.

When teachers in ontario went on a two-week general strike in 1997, they didn't get the support of students and parents by disparaging them. They did so by making them aware of the issues.

Sat, 2010-01-09 11:30

#15

Sineed

The article RF quotes is so silly, you could almost take it for satire. He suffers the inconvenience of an unclean car - reminds me of that jerk on radio in Ottawa who was going on about Sri Lankan protesters taking Toronto "hostage," as if causing traffic jams was an act of terrorism.

But I'm popping in to say something in defence of students. It's been frequently repeated on babble that students are "privileged;" that students who object to strikes by their instructors are protecting the ruling class. That's true of some kids, but I knew many students who made enormous sacrifices to go to school. If you tell students they're "anti-worker" because they're upset about missing classes that their parents worked several jobs to help pay for, or somebody like me, who worked at various menial jobs during high school, what you're doing is sending the message that it's the unionized workers who are in a position of privilege.

So I second what Polunatic2 says: getting message out, rather than hurling insults, is a more effective strategy for garnering support.

Sat, 2010-01-09 11:33

#16

Le T

Quote:
When teachers in ontario went on a two-week general strike in 1997, they didn't get the support of students and parents by disparaging them. They did so by making them aware of the issues.

It's also way easier to get a bunch of highschool student to walk out than a bunch of uni/college student who have paid $4k-$8k per year.

Sat, 2010-01-09 11:57

#17

Polunatic2

Well, the students didn't actually walk out. The schools were closed down for two weeks by the teachers who walked out. However, unlike recent public sector strikes (e.g. Windsor and Toronto municipal), there was lots of popular support for the job action even though parents were hugely inconvenienced.

Sat, 2010-01-09 12:01

#18

rural - Francesca rural - Francesca's picture

My kid is in college, her second year, so she graduates this spring. She is deeply concerned about a strike, but her first question to me was "what are the issues?". Her friends were joing the FB group and she thought they were just signing up without understanding the issues.

She has also benefited a lot from the staff at the college who help her navigate her way through her education, and she knows that they are fighting to be able to do their job better.

Sat, 2010-01-09 12:57

#19

Sven

rural - Francesca wrote:

...they are fighting to be able to do their job better.

That's what they are fighting for?

Sat, 2010-01-09 13:11

#20

Polunatic2

Quote:
That's what they are fighting for?

As a matter of fact, yes, that is one of the central issues. Workload.

Sat, 2010-01-09 13:19

#21

rural - Francesca rural - Francesca's picture

My daughter has a minor learning disability. The college has accomodated her needs and bends over backwards to help her. Over Christmas she was telling me how more resouces were needed for disabled students and that was one of the issues, mroe resouces so they could do a better job of helping the students.

Sat, 2010-01-09 13:48

#22

Boom Boom

rural - Francesca wrote:

My daughter has a minor learning disability. The college has accomodated her needs and bends over backwards to help her. Over Christmas she was telling me how more resouces were needed for disabled students and that was one of the issues, mroe resouces so they could do a better job of helping the students.

That's great to know! When I was in primary school, high school, college, and university, none of these made the slightest effort to accomodate my deafness. I got through by being a persistent SOB and asking for help after classes to fill in the gaps where I didn't hear. Teachers and professors used to run in the opposite direction when they saw me in the hallway.

Sat, 2010-01-09 14:06

#23

rural - Francesca rural - Francesca's picture

She's a huge advocate for all the disabled students. They go to her first and then she's "on the case". When I picked up up last April one of the disablity staff made a point of telling me how much they adore her.

She's also managed to advocate for a revamp of the whole co-op program because it wouldn't let her do what she wanted to do, and being stubborn, she kept pushing until someone took a closer look at it and realized it was bias to a certian type of study.

Nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

Sat, 2010-01-09 16:18

#24

Doug

My union just settles for wage increases of 1.5% and 2% thereafter. We're soooo greedy.

Sat, 2010-01-09 17:06

#25

RANGER

Michelle wrote:

Suck it up, kids - the real world just gets worse unless you fight back and support others who are fighting back.

Very well said!

Sat, 2010-01-09 17:11

#26

RANGER

Our right wing government in the 80's told us 3% maximum wage increases for government workers! We went nuts and filled up Empire stadium!,how times have changed.

Sat, 2010-01-09 19:06

#27

abnormal

Michelle wrote:

Sorry, but the job is someone's life. A semester of school is a semester of school.

If only that were true. Lose a semester means you lose your year - for those that are in school upgrading their skills because they're previous job doesn't exist anymore it's another year before they can put food on the table. For those students where attending college/university is a real financial stretch it may well mean the end of any dream of graduating.

If we were talking about a university, the question is whether or not people can apply to grad school or professional programs. [As an aside, I do know that people looked somewhat askance at final grades from York last year (how much of the final mark was due to fallout from the strike and how much was was actually "earned" was first and foremost in a lot of people's minds).]

Quote:
When professors strike, it's because this is their livelihood in their full-time job that is at stake, not just a youthful semester of school - and that's not saying that a semester isn't important. I realize it is, and that school is getting really expensive ...

The issue is not whether or not it's a "youthful semester". It's whether or not losing a semester screws the students for the rest of their lives.

Sun, 2010-01-17 11:38

#28

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
Good jobs are important. I have no interest in guilt trips from those students who are happy to see management force university staff and faculty into a race to the bottom when it comes to wages and benefits. Suck it up, kids - the real world just gets worse unless you fight back and support others who are fighting back.

Thanks for that Michelle.

We went on strike about five years ago. Our outrageous demands were for wage increases of 0%, 1%, and 1% over three years, and a few other clauses that weren't relevant to my position. I cheerily walked the picket line because I thought that even though I didn't have much of a stake in the demands either way, I thought it was important to take a stand for the provincial labour movement as a whole. Any benefits we could achieve for ourselves would help raise the standards for everyone, was my way of looking at it.

We started with rotating one-day strikes, so nobody knew when we'd be out, but we'd see the students in between strike days. We'd try to get them through the course work the best we could, and made a lot of allowances for time lost. At no point did I get the feeling that the students weren't on our side, or that they weren't at least sympathetic to us. One factor in this may have been that the students were training to be in the trades or to be technologists, and that they weren't university students. They knew that once they left school they'd be on our side of the bargaining table if they were ever in a labour dispute.

On the other hand, I overheard some instructors whining that they shouldn't be walking the picket line because they were professionals, not mere workers. A couple of similarly highly-educated scab professionals on another campus were later reprimanded by the union for crossing their own picket line.

Sun, 2010-01-17 12:05

#29

500_Apples

If you're always buying the cheapest products you're likely shopping in a place where workers are paid 50 cents an hour and treated like garbage.

Tue, 2010-01-19 10:22

#30

G. Muffin

Tommy_Paine wrote:
Here I am, Muffy wuffy, warts and all.

Oh, TP, you are so wonderful. Do you know a woman by the name of Rebecca West? I think you'd like her.

Tue, 2010-01-19 10:23

#31

G. Muffin

500_Apples wrote:
If you're always buying the cheapest products you're likely shopping in a place where workers are paid 50 cents an hour and treated like garbage.

Nah. I shop at Starbucks most days. Fine organization, that one. I understand that they pay upwards of $8 an hour. Filthy Capitalist Pig Dogs.

Tue, 2010-01-19 10:25

#32

G. Muffin

al-Qa'bong wrote:
On the other hand, I overheard some instructors whining that they shouldn't be walking the picket line because they were professionals, not mere workers.

Fuck around. I really hate academics at times. Self-righteous prigs. Where was this, al-Q? Sounds eerily like Camosun College a few years back.

Tue, 2010-01-19 10:27

#33

G. Muffin

abnormal wrote:
The issue is not whether or not it's a "youthful semester". It's whether or not losing a semester screws the students for the rest of their lives.

Huh? I bombed out at UBC in October 1987. My credits are still good and I'm going back to UVic in September 2010. How on Earth could this screw me up for the rest of my life?

Tue, 2010-01-19 10:50

#34

Le T

Quote:
Huh? I bombed out at UBC in October 1987. My credits are still good and I'm going back to UVic in September 2010. How on Earth could this screw me up for the rest of my life?

It really doesn't. And although the poor, recently un-employed, second-careerer is wheeled out to make the point, a majority of the students affected by a strike will probably not remeber that it ever happened

Quote:
Well, the students didn't actually walk out. The schools were closed down for two weeks by the teachers who walked out. However, unlike recent public sector strikes (e.g. Windsor and Toronto municipal), there was lots of popular support for the job action even though parents were hugely inconvenienced.

They walked out at my highschool. Almost everyone. Other schools in my hometown too. I don't think that most of the students were heavy labour supporters as much as opportunistic students leaving class.

Tue, 2010-01-19 11:49

#35

Michelle

The truth is, there WILL be people that a college or university strike affects. For instance, there are people whose industries are shutting down who find themselves without work and need retraining to do something else, and they get paid benefits to go to school. If the school they enroll in is shut down, then in some cases, the benefits get cut off if they had extended benefits beyond the normal EI or whatever. It really sucks.

But it's not the fault of the union. Unionized workers don't want to be on strike any more than students want to be out of school - we make a hell of a lot more money when we're working than when we're on strike.

Fortunately, a lot of the students who are doing second career training understand from experience what it's like to fight for jobs - a lot of the plants they used to work in and were shut down were unionized. So they get it. They get that it's not a bad thing to fight for decent wages, benefits, job security, safety, and workload issues.

And those students who haven't been in the world of work full-time with both feet (but who may have experienced getting screwed around in non-unionized, part-time retail shit jobs) should also realize that, once they're out of school, the only way to ensure that they get the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs, and to not take the employer's or the company's side when they fight their workers on issues of compensation and workload.

It sucks to have to learn that by being stuck in the middle during a strike. But that's life. That's life for all of us, and it will be life for them too when they leave school and start their careers.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:03

#36

Snert

Quote:
the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs

Wouldn't some part of those "outrageous" student loans be connected to staff receiving more money? If students support, say, a decent raise for staff, shouldn't part of that support include being prepared for their fees to go up to pay for that?

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:05

#37

G. Muffin

Michelle wrote:
And those students who haven't been in the world of work full-time with both feet (but who may have experienced getting screwed around in non-unionized, part-time retail shit jobs) should also realize that, once they're out of school, the only way to ensure that they get the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs, and to not take the employer's or the company's side when they fight their workers on issues of compensation and workload.

It sucks to have to learn that by being stuck in the middle during a strike. But that's life. That's life for all of us, and it will be life for them too when they leave school and start their careers.

Amen. I agree with everything here except that students necessarily use student loans to gain their PSE.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:06

#38

G. Muffin

Snert wrote:
Wouldn't some part of those "outrageous" student loans be connected to staff receiving more money? If students support, say, a decent raise for staff, shouldn't part of that support include being prepared for their fees to go up to pay for that?

Not for me. Not as long as the President of the University is making 10 times my annual salary.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:26

#39

Catchfire

How did this thread about striking workers turn into a worker vs student battle? We don't need the capitalists to turn our allies into enemies. We'll do it for free!

Education is not a thing left to the free market. It is not a "good" whose quality you should be prepared to pay for. It is a universal human right. It doesn't go in the discount bin or on high street shops. Somehow, this reality has been lost as we have let our universities and colleges embrace the corporate model where a highly paid executive and a small board of corporate elite completely disconnected from the students, make decisions for the whole educational body. Meanwhile, post-secondary government funding has been gutted while fees (and student debt) has skyrocketed. This is basic stuff, and I'm hearing the same smears against students that opponents to fully funded education usually bring out. "Why do they need money--I see them with their cell phones," etc. How is this any different from the usual union-bash: "They're on strike at 35$ an hour? I make 10$ an hour! I'd kill for their job, the lazy bums!" Rather than buying the myth that students are taking bread from the union-man's mouth, why not look to how the university, traditionally a hot-bed of dissent and subversion, has become increasingly corporatized and aloof?

There are a lot of privileged kids at university, don't get me wrong. But it's also the place where a lot of young people learn feminism, community activism and strategies to fight injustice. I'm prepared for a discussion about the problems with elitism and self-satisfaction and insulation wrt post-secondary education if you're prepared for one about unions and the status quo. The point is that these movements do not depend on the failure of the other.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:35

#40

Snert

Quote:
Not for me. Not as long as the President of the University is making 10 times my annual salary.

Well, there's a plan. If we were to gut his/her salary by 90%, we could both bring it in line with yours, and also bring student loans from $40K to $39K for as many as 270 students!

End result: the university is effectively without a qualified administrator (since nobody who's really at that level is going to work for $30K), some tiny fraction of the student body will be able to repay their loans 2% faster (9 years and 9 months instead of ten years!) and we've struck a blow against those overpaid fat cats!

I love when it's this easy.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:45

#41

Michelle

Snert wrote:

Quote:
the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs

Wouldn't some part of those "outrageous" student loans be connected to staff receiving more money? If students support, say, a decent raise for staff, shouldn't part of that support include being prepared for their fees to go up to pay for that?

No, actually - I expect post-secondary education not to be funded entirely on the backs of the students and post-secondary workers. I expect it to be funded on the backs of all taxpayers through a progressive taxation system, which, by the way, include the workers and the students - and I fully support myself paying more taxes as a university worker with a half-decent income, than students who are mostly surviving on much smaller incomes.

Tue, 2010-01-19 12:55

#42

Michelle

Catchfire, I agree - I would like to see much, much more solidarity between students and workers than there currently is on many campuses, and for links between the struggles to be made much more clearly.

It is in our best interests as university staff to support lower fee campaigns, and to pressure the government to provide more post-secondary funding so that post-secondary workers don't have job or wage cuts or freezes, and students don't have to pay outrageous fees. And many university staff unions and professors' associations do support these campaigns - but more can be done.

It is in students' best interests to support university and college workers as well when it comes to bargaining with their employers. There is a common goal here - we want the university or college to be the best working and learning environment it can be. If post-secondary workers' working conditions suck, then students don't get the quality of education they need - larger and larger class sizes, huge administrative loads on support staff - these are things that affect students as much as higher fees do.

Tue, 2010-01-19 21:58

#43

500_Apples

Snert wrote:
Quote:
the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs

Wouldn't some part of those "outrageous" student loans be connected to staff receiving more money? If students support, say, a decent raise for staff, shouldn't part of that support include being prepared for their fees to go up to pay for that?

Absolutely.

As a student, I did not support the tuition strikes at McGill, but I would definitely support a strike by support staff for better working conditions.

Tue, 2010-01-19 22:10

#44

Le T

Students are notoriously hard to organize. If the student unions organized a mass non-payment of tuition fees there would be imediate action by university administration and provincial governments. That would never happen though. Partly because of logistics with how student loans are run and partly because students have spent years in an education system that teaches competition over cooperation.

Wed, 2010-01-20 01:47

#45

j.m.

Le T wrote:

Students are notoriously hard to organize. If the student unions organized a mass non-payment of tuition fees there would be imediate action by university administration and provincial governments. That would never happen though. Partly because of logistics with how student loans are run and partly because students have spent years in an education system that teaches competition over cooperation.

The problems are the student governments, too. Student unions/governments are notoriously formed out of self-interest. Resume-building and 25-30 Gs on a part-time status. Where do I sign up my greedy ass!?

I agree that students are hard to organize, especially as they become treated as clients and not active members that build the institution (although with the caveat that students are now being encouraged to participate in 'selling' the brand of the institution). And then the sheer indifference and apathy, wherever it comes from...

Wed, 2010-01-20 09:38

#46

Caissa

I spent a term as CFS-O Chair. My observation is that very few people who go into student government do it out of self-interest.

We worked very closely with OCUFA and OCUSA. We recognized the value of solidarity amongst the various citizens of the university.

The purpose of universities creation, preservation and distribution of knowledge. As Catchfire eloquently points out this is a public good, a part of our social contract, not a commodity to be traded in the marketplace.

Ground seems to be lost over the last 20 years and the corporate model seems in the ascendancy on campuses. Approximately 20 years ago, CFS-O released a report on the state of the Province's campuses titled Cut to the Bone. I shudder at what the appropriate analogy is for today.

Wed, 2010-01-20 10:01

#47

j.m.

Caissa wrote:

I spent a term as CFS-O Chair. My observation is that very few people who go into student government do it out of self-interest.

We worked very closely with OCUFA and OCUSA. We recognized the value of solidarity amongst the various citizens of the university.

The purpose of universities creation, preservation and distribution of knowledge. As Catchfire eloquently points out this is a public good, a part of our social contract, not a commodity to be traded in the marketplace.

Ground seems to be lost over the last 20 years and the corporate model seems in the ascendancy on campuses. Approximately 20 years ago, CFS-O released a report on the state of the Province's campuses titled Cut to the Bone. I shudder at what the appropriate analogy is for today.

You might find that those who commit to the CFS are also those who share its political goals and views of education and thus are committed beyond professional development goals and a nice income. It is no surprise then that the example of self-interest I can best cite is doing whatever it can to distance itself from the CFS and from student activism.

Wed, 2010-01-20 18:52

#48

canuquetoo

Michelle wrote:

Snert wrote:

Quote:
the kind of job that will help them pay back their outrageous student loans is to fight for good jobs

Wouldn't some part of those "outrageous" student loans be connected to staff receiving more money? If students support, say, a decent raise for staff, shouldn't part of that support include being prepared for their fees to go up to pay for that?

No, actually - I expect post-secondary education not to be funded entirely on the backs of the students and post-secondary workers. I expect it to be funded on the backs of all taxpayers through a progressive taxation system, which, by the way, include the workers and the students - and I fully support myself paying more taxes as a university worker with a half-decent income, than students who are mostly surviving on much smaller incomes.

There is a misconception afloat that higher education is a ticket to a better personal income and that the individual should 'pay their own way' when the reality is that an educated society raises everyone's standard of living as well as quality of life.

Dollar for dollar, public investment in education pays society higher dividends than forcing students to bear the full burden. Canada is increasingly uncompetitive globally against nations that invest in universal higher eductation.

Wed, 2010-01-20 21:54

#49

al-Qa'bong

Students don't "pay the full burden" anyway. I don't recall the exact figure, but where I work, tuition covers far less than 10 % (I remember being surprised at how low the percentage is, so it might be around 2-3%) of the cost of a student's education.

Wed, 2010-01-20 23:33

#50

Catchfire

I can't speak for all schools, but two that I've been involved with have had tuition fees around 15-20% and 25-30% of the whole budget.

Thu, 2010-01-21 04:57

#51

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Caissa wrote:

I spent a term as CFS-O Chair. My observation is that very few people who go into student government do it out of self-interest.

lmfao.

Why must I be inconvenienced by workers unhappy in their jobs?

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