E.Tamaran's comment reminds me of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson musing that civil liberties groups, feminists, pagans, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters were partially responsible for the 9/11 attacks -- because they had made the Lord Gawd Almighty angry with America.
Exactly, THAT'S what we don't need at Rabble.
What I'm saying, and what I sincerely hope you get called on, is that despite your anger over land claims and native issues, saying that Nodar Kumaritashvili's death is any kind of divine retribution on the part of a Creator over land claims issues was a dickheaded thing to say, however valid your points may otherwise be.
Despite your anger over land claims........
I don't see it. Imagine you have a really nice piece of land. And someone takes it away from you and throws the mother of all parties on it. Kicks your family out, tears up the place, leaves garbage laying about, destroys the furniture...
Then in mid party, they trip over their own dicks and break a leg. Maybe I would feel that it might have been what was coming to them.
Just saying.
Moderators!!! Is it acceptable for settlers to claim FN land isn't really ours, and that we'll never get it back?! How the FUCK can this sort of hate can ever be acceptable?!
Too funny.
Moderators!! More hate.
LOL
It's like the world is out to get you. UNACCEPTABLE!
Sorry E.Taraman I just can't bring myself to feel sorry for you considering the types of comments you're known for. You're acting like a baby. You made a very ugly comment which is below you because you are better than that but insead of owning up to it you turn it around and try to play the victim.
Don't we have enough people in this world blaming deaths of others on some silly sort of divine retribution? Yes yes we do.
Nothing new here.
They absolutely are, sorry. Don't know how to fix though, as I have quote and flag as offensive as options.....
I hear you. Babble software can be tricky. It's up at #40, I'm sure you'll likely find you can edit that one but I wouldn't likely do the same after either. Didn't want you misquoted.
More misery, at least it's a long weekend for me.
Thanks RP.
What I'm saying, and what I sincerely hope you get called on, is that despite your anger over land claims and native issues, saying that Nodar Kumaritashvili's death is any kind of divine retribution on the part of a Creator over land claims issues was a dickheaded thing to say, however valid your points may otherwise be.
Despite your anger over land claims........
I don't see it. Imagine you have a really nice piece of land. And someone takes it away from you and throws the mother of all parties on it. Kicks your family out, tears up the place, leaves garbage laying about, destroys the furniture...
Then in mid party, they trip over their own dicks and break a leg. Maybe I would feel that it might have been what was coming to them.
Just saying.
Please fix the post Polly B, I believe your quotes are misquoted.
They absolutely are, sorry. Don't know how to fix though, as I have quote and flag as offensive as options.....
(edited to say - okay I figured it out. technology is apparently beyond me tonight so will make this my last post....)
edited again to say almost my last post...
Cheers!
The luger didn't steal it. I'd get the hubris if something happend to a VANOC organizer, perhaps - wouldn't agree with it, but get it - but why the perverse schadenfreude over a Georgian luger who has nothing to do with Canadian - First Nation politics?
Why shouldn't an olympic athlete be expected to know at least the recent history and the politics of the host country?
Why shouldn't an olympic athlete be expected to know at least the recent history and the politics of the host country?
If he doesn't, does he deserve to die?
An unfortunate accident indeed and an ominous warning.
Why shouldn't an olympic athlete be expected to know at least the recent history and the politics of the host country?
If he doesn't, does he deserve to die?
No, what else you got?
Why shouldn't an olympic athlete be expected to know at least the recent history and the politics of the host country?
If he doesn't, does he deserve to die?
Ummm. No?
Extrapolation by extreme.
regardless of land claim issues- which I know are extremely serious- there is no reason for this young guy to die. the run was built horribly and vanoc knew it. Seriously to suggest he had it coming to him is pretty shitty, I mean if he was actively pursuing some sort of colonizing agenda on his own and was systematically underminding land claims then maybe there is some sort of retribution argument or something, but in general he came to compete. Having an issue with the games as a whole is way different that picking out specific and non-canadian athletes to put the onus on
regardless of land claim issues- which I know are extremely serious.....
(snip)
But not as serious as a visiting athlete?
I don't think anyone is suggesting he had it coming. But really, you would have to be deaf and blind or totally disinterested not to have figured out that these olympics were being held on disputed land. So these athletes (or their handlers) have chosen to compete here, despite the facts available to them. And doesnt' ignoring land claims in order to attend the olympics somehow undermine those land claims?
No kidding - especially since most CANADIANS don't get it when it comes to colonization issues here...we're supposed to expect some athlete from Georgia to be an expert on this? Especially considering that such a huge show has been made of the Indigenous nations of BC welcoming people to the Games? He's supposed to know that all the "official" leaders of the Indigenous groups who are supporting the games don't represent the grassroots activists of their nation? He was somehow supposed to know all about the various factions of Indigenous groups and keep straight who is for the Games, who is against, who has more legitimacy, etc., when most Canadians can't even figure it out?
It was all part of the Creator's master plan for him to die as a warning to everyone else to leave? Is that what we're supposed to believe here?
I think we're being taken for a ride.
What irony? I thought I was crystal clear on the point I'm making.
You could leave the iirony out and get straight to the point, it's confusing what you're plainin 'bout"
Not so crystal-clear but helpful.
regardless of land claim issues- which I know are extremely serious.....
(snip)
But not as serious as a visiting athlete?
I don't think anyone is suggesting he had it coming. But really, you would have to be deaf and blind or totally disinterested not to have figured out that these olympics were being held on disputed land. So these athletes (or their handlers) have chosen to compete here, despite the facts available to them. And doesnt' ignoring land claims in order to attend the olympics somehow undermine those land claims?
I considered this too, I'm not sure how I feel about it... and most people do not know about the land claims issue, trust me, even my BC friends have no idea what the problem is, literally, not just because they are being discriminatory, but they literally do not know there are land claims issues, especially around the games
I wonder how many people wouldn't be able to go to work ect. if they constantly looked out for land claims and other issues (yeah I reread that and it sounds terrible- I'm not trying to diminish land claims, but it would be unrealistic to assume everyone can be that involved)
He was on stolen land and basically trespassing. I'm not saying he deserved to die but really if he had respected the territory then this would never have happened. Maybe this is a sign from the Creator to leave asap.
I suspect it's more the result of poor achitectural planning on the part of the luge track contractors - and tonight there was speculation that there will be more shielding (plastic) along the track to guide lugers away from the posts if they do go off the track, and, sustantial soft padding if they still manage to hit those treacherous-looking steel posts along the track.
It would be easy to Polly. Im in Ontario and the only coverage I see is here. Its barely mentioned in the Star or Sun or on TV and usually only in relation to protests with little or no background information.
And when Im in other countries I cannot find out anything about Canada at all. No coverage whatsoever and thats in the US, UK and Europe. I would think theres even less in places like Georgia, Only the occasional if it bleeds it leads coverage in Europe or the US or something funny like Flaherty collapsing the Igloo at the G7.
I am from BC but live in Alberta right now. I have family in both provinces. I have heard, and read, tons of stuff on the "land claims issue" . More and more as the Olympics got closer. It is hard to believe that any interested party could have missed it but okay, maybe they have. I stand corrected.
And I don't think it would be such a bad idea, if people had to consider and research "land claim issues" before they went to work each day. Migh make them think a bit harder.
I suppose you are right Bacchus. Doesn't say much for us, really.
I agree. The level of insular media as well as thought is staggering. In the U.S. (from where my wife is from) most people have never been more than 50miles from their place of birth and don't read.
To who? The settlers on our stolen land? I should apologize to them? Not likely. Settlers come to the olympics on stolen land and then get hurt because other settlers designed the track unsafely! If everybody had respected the native land claims none of this would have happened. Can't you see that?! That's why people get upset when settlers build houses in the occupied territories of palestine. Why don't you get upset the same way when it happens in canada?! Oh right cause we're just natives I forgot!!!
I doubt that this 21 year old individual from Georgia, was aware that this land was under dispute. I also doubt if he planned on settling in this part of Canada. Please feel free to justify his death because he participated in a international sporting event in which athletes from a large contigent of the countries on earth are represented. Use your liberties to assume that he should have expected that he would die because he was on disputed land. My last suggestion to you Tamaran is get help. I know it means nothing, what I think, but it almost sounds like you are blaming Nodar Kumaritashvili for his own death
sorry
I am from BC but live in Alberta right now. I have family in both provinces. I have heard, and read, tons of stuff on the "land claims issue" . More and more as the Olympics got closer. It is hard to believe that any interested party could have missed it but okay, maybe they have. I stand corrected.
I guess it's confession time. Of course I've seen "stolen land" all over the protest signs, but I have no idea what the precise dispute is and which parties it is between. Can someone please refer me to a source where it's explained in understandable terms? Or just explain it here somewhere, if it can be done without too much thread drift (although this thread could benefit from a bit of drift)?
No kidding - especially since most CANADIANS don't get it when it comes to colonization issues here...
Settlers like Michelle don't "get it" because they don't want to. The information is out there.
we're supposed to expect some athlete from Georgia to be an expert on this?
When you visit a country/nation for the first time shouldn't you get up to speed on local customs so you don't come across as boorish?
Especially considering that such a huge show has been made of the Indigenous nations of BC welcoming people to the Games?
Manufactured consent from bought-and-paid for chiefs like Fontaine
He's supposed to know that all the "official" leaders of the Indigenous groups who are supporting the games don't represent the grassroots activists of their nation?
A 5 minute google search would have opened his eyes. But I guess that's too much to ask from the future leaders the olympics are supposed to produce.
He was somehow supposed to know all about the various factions of Indigenous groups and keep straight who is for the Games, who is against, who has more legitimacy, etc., when most Canadians can't even figure it out?
Factions? Real progressive of you to make it sound like FNs are violent. Factions is a term nowdays used to describe armed groups in Iraq and other places,
It was all part of the Creator's master plan for him to die as a warning to everyone else to leave? Is that what we're supposed to believe here?
Believe what you want.
I think we're being taken for a ride.
You could take a ride back to europe.
I am from BC but live in Alberta right now. I have family in both provinces. I have heard, and read, tons of stuff on the "land claims issue" . More and more as the Olympics got closer. It is hard to believe that any interested party could have missed it but okay, maybe they have. I stand corrected.
I guess it's confession time. Of course I've seen "stolen land" all over the protest signs, but I have no idea what the precise dispute is and which parties it is between. Can someone please refer me to a source where it's explained in understandable terms? Or just explain it here somewhere, if it can be done without too much thread drift (although this thread could benefit from a bit of drift)?
I'll look for a good source after I get some coffee in me. In simplest terms BC was pretty much settled without treaties, a whole lot of nothing. There were a few local based agreements here and there but basically nothing that involved the Canadian state or that could really be called a treaty. So the dispute there is unlike many other disputes in Canada which are about specific land issues related to not full filling or historical hinkyness that has gone against terms agreed upon in the respecitive treaties whether land or otherwise. Land claims issues there involve the majority of FN's in the province. There's at least one (not sure the exact number) that have settled on some sort of modern day a agreement that occured within the last ten years or so. Last I heard basically 110 percent of the province is under some sort of claim due to historical overlap of traditional territories.
Thanks, Eliza, I'll look forward to that. I recall reading lots about the Nisga'a treaty - is that the one you're referring to? Other than that (or rather [i]including[/i] that), my ignorance is unfortunately vast.
I'll go grab some coffee too. 
Holy crap.
Okay people.
Deep breath.
At midnight, and later, on a Friday night (YES in Ontario) or any night actually, calling for mods form within the thread (never a good idea by the way, since we have no idea anything's going on unless we click on the thread) and even flagging posts as offensive, won't get much of a response. It's in these cases that we (mods) fervently hope, against all evidence, that people will state their objections and move on.
Sigh.
E.Tamaran, your first comment reads as deliberately inflammatory, which is trolling. Your further posts, sadly, are the same. Someone can disagree with you without being racist. You have a week off.
The rest of youse, and if you've behaved immoderately you know who you are, on both sides of the arguments, dial it back and don't add fuel to the fire. Please.
I'm not closing this. Yet. Can we get back to the topic of the OP? The news item of the death of the athlete? And there are many threads in the aboriginal issues forum about the Olympic protests dating back close to 2 years.
The Canada You Stole
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/canada-you-stole
The Conflicted Relationship Between Lawyers and Indians
http://lawiscool.com/2009/01/11/the-conflicted-relationship-between-lawy...
I notice that Google's graphic today is a picture of the luge. Yesterday it was something else. Today it's the luge. When you click on it, it goes to current news items about the Olympics, but not about the death yesterday. Is this some gross oversight by Google? How could anyone be that stupid/insensitive?
I'm not closing this. Yet. Can we get back to the topic of the OP? The news item of the death of the athlete? And there are many threads in the aboriginal issues forum about the Olympic protests dating back close to 2 years.
The Canada You Stole
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/canada-you-stole
The Conflicted Relationship Between Lawyers and Indians
http://lawiscool.com/2009/01/11/the-conflicted-relationship-between-lawy...
NDPP I know you are big on posting links without any commentary but do you ignore the mods on purpose or do you just not bother reading their posts because you're in a hurry to post your links? Can we get back on topic seems pretty straight forward to me but maybe I'm missing something.
Getting back on topic I watched the video when the athlete crashed. The first thing I thought when the clip started before en seeing the crash was wow those posts aren't padded? Then he crashed. It looked like common sense to me. Fastest track in the world + corner + giant fuck off steel beams.
NDPP I know you are big on posting links without any commentary but do you ignore the mods on purpose or do you just not bother reading their posts because you're in a hurry to post your links? Can we get back on topic seems pretty straight forward to me but maybe I'm missing something.
[/quote] NDPP
I was searching out these links in response to the query above re: land rights before the mod comments - sorry for the drift but it seemed important.
wow, so yarg, ktown et al get off with nothing....
frankly I am registering my disapproval of that, given the use of "asshole" etc too. Especially given a couple of those posters piling on etamaran have a history of making racist commentary prior here. In fact, I am still waiting months later for one of them to provide proof of their assertations, which are most definitely racist without proof.
So what I am saying here is; if they are getting away with using "asshole" (i have been recently chastized for using "asshat" FFS) and other such terms om Etamaran, be prepared for such to be used all the time, if you are going to let those right wing participants, who are here to do nothing more than agitate, use them.
Death makes one question Olympic purpose - historian Dave Barron in the Houston Chronicle
remind, forgive me, but it's been a trying few days here on babble. I think I've used up my moderation hours into March at this point.
I figured this covered it:
The rest of youse, and if you've behaved immoderately you know who you are, on both sides of the arguments, dial it back and don't add fuel to the fire. Please.
Going in and calling out each particular babbler seemed, in my estimation, to prolong the fighting, as this very post may do, rather than getting back on track. The gajillion threads I've started about anti-Olympics protests should indicate where I stand on the issue in general, but that's not what this thread is about.
By the time I got here this morning the swearing and bad language had kinda snowballed out of control, including things said by posters who I may not particularly like either. I'm giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here.
Thanks N for getting us back on track.
SFU Criminology professor Neil Boyd, who's not much of a fan of this sort of spectacle, expressed the view that he just hopes "that both the protesters and police win public support for their handling of issues, and that we in the Lower Mainland are able to look back at this extravaganza, if not with pride and pleasure, at least with a sense that we did not do anything that was too horribly embarrassing."
Creative forms of protest. That's what I read into this remark of his. It's a good idea. See The Two Sides of The Games (The Mark)
Last night I was in my local pub here on the Island and there was the usual big screen that hogged the attention of the patrons. They even turned up the volume. I saw, out of the corner of my eye, that they replayed the luge sequence in which the Georgian athlete was killed.
Anyway, they finally shut off the idiot box and we got down to listening to some quality folk music.
I'd just like to say that I agree with E.Tamaran when it comes to the politics of the Olympics. And I apologize if my use of the term "factions" sounded like violent imagery - I didn't associate the word with violence, myself, when I used it, but if that's the imagery most people think of when they hear that word, my apologies. "Factions" simply means groups of people within a larger group who disagree with each other.
I "get it" and side with the Olympic protesters. I understand that the protesters feel they've been sold out by the "official" representatives of their nations. I'm just saying that since the majority of Canadians have been hoodwinked by the "official" Aboriginal endorsement of the Games, then it would be pretty difficult for a Georgian athlete, who might not even have spoken English, to understand the intricacies of the politics and protest behind it, or to understand issues of legitimacy between the people of the nations in question.
I do apologize to E.Tamaran (if he's reading this) and others if my post sounded like I was siding against the Olympic protesters. I definitely am not. I highly doubt any Olympic protesters are taking the position that the luger got what was coming to him and that's what he gets for setting foot on stolen land. At least, I certainly haven't seen anything like that from the many Olympic protesters, aboriginal and non-aboriginal, that I've been following.
I'm fine with a mod slapping my wrist on this if my post is off-topic, but I do think that this is an important part of the story, how anti-olympics protesters are reacting to the news. All I have seen is compassion towards the victim and anger against the Olympic organizers who built such a death trap on stolen land.
I'm fine with a mod slapping my wrist on this if my post is off-topic, but I do think that this is an important part of the story, how anti-olympics protesters are reacting to the news. All I have seen is compassion towards the victim and anger against the Olympic organizers who built such a death trap on stolen land.
Of course it's awful that he died. And I feel for his family. But he did devote his life to an exceedingly dangerous pursuit. There are risks. And it's a pretty stupid, meaningless way to spend your life - not to mention a whole lot of public money. It's all part of the tragedy.
You echoed my thoughts, Rosa.
Hey all, in case you haven't noticed, rabble has published an Olympics roundup page here: http://rabble.ca/issues/olympics
I actually first learned about the horrible luge accident there, on the Twitter feed hosted there.
Speaking of Twitter, I came across this good piece on the luger's death there this AM. It is a piece by Canoe by Ron Longley "Was luger's death Canada's fault" . I'd replace "Canada" with "VANOC", but I think we'll see a consensus today that the answer is yes.
Speaking of Twitter, I came across this good piece on the luger's death there this AM. It is a piece by Canoe by Ron Longley "Was luger's death Canada's fault" . I'd replace "Canada" with "VANOC", but I think we'll see a consensus today that the answer is yes.
Someone please explain to me how more runs down a dangerous course is less dangerous than fewer runs. Something about the logic of Longley's article (and the people he quotes) escapes me.
The rest of youse, and if you've behaved immoderately you know who you are....dial it back...
Respectfully, this assumption of compliance, does not work in the case of the people of whom we are talking about here. They do not believe their behaviour is/was in the wrong, right from the get go of their coming here, so of course they would not apply it to themselves, and even if they did it wou;ld be disregarded, as their behaviour is their purpose for being here. Thus expecting them to stop or dial it back from that commentary is a waste of moderation time.
In respect to this young man who died, hello the luge is the most dangerous winter sport there is.....I do not even know why it is allowed.
Allowing someone to go 140km on a small sled, with absolutely NO protection, when you are not allowed to drive a car that has protection all around you at that speed is beyond irrational, even for sports.
So as far as I am concerned everyone who lays their bodies on a luge, to hurtle down a twisting ice course, knows that this might be the time they die.
[quote=Unionist]
[quote=kim elliott]
Speaking of Twitter, I came across this good piece on the luger's death there this AM. It is a piece by Canoe by Ron Longley "Was luger's death Canada's fault" . I'd replace "Canada" with "VANOC", but I think we'll see a consensus today that the answer is yes.
[/quote]
Someone please explain to me how more runs down a dangerous course is less dangerous than fewer runs. Something about the logic of Longley's article (and the people he quotes) escapes me.
[/quote]
-------
I presumed that meant the ability to practice over time and without the pressure of the competition starting imminently. Even CTV was running quotes recorded pre-accident re: concerns about the luge run. I'm no luge expert, but the media I've seen so far on this makes it clear that there were concerns.
The New York Times has a multi-media piece that will give you a closer look at the run.
In respect to this young man who died, hello the luge is the most dangerous winter sport there is.....I do not even know why it is allowed.
Allowing someone to go 140km on a small sled, with absolutely NO protection, when you are not allowed to drive a car that has protection all around you at that speed is beyond irrational, even for sports.
So as far as I am concerned everyone who lays their bodies on a luge, to hurtle down a twisting ice course, knows that this might be the time they die.
Hard to argue with that.
Why do they call this thing a "sport" anyway?
How about a "snowshoeing on thin ice" event for the next Olympics?
man this got out of control... i still think the main issue is the track, they are now saying that the track has no issues, that it was a human error but they are going to fix parts of thr track as well. There were issues with the track last year with the world cup and so its not like the issues witht he track weren't known.
The show, it seems, must go on. Training reopens at luge track.
