Cuban Prison Hunger Striker Orlando Zapata Tamayo Dies

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Tue, 2010-02-23 23:48

NDPP

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8533350.stm

"His death marks the first time in 40 years a Cuban activist starved himself to death to protest against government abuses. Amnesty International declared him a prisoner of conscience after his arrest in March, 2003 in a crackdown on opposition groups. He had been calling for the release of political prisoners. He died between 1530 and 1630 local time, on Tuesday, Efe news reports.

According to the paper, the last political prisoner to die on hunger strike in Cuba, was Pedro Luis Boitel, a poet and student leader, who died in 1972..."

Thu, 2010-02-25 00:45

NDPP

Castro Laments Death of Hunger Striking Dissident

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8535390.stm

"The BBC's Michael Voss in Havana says Raoul Castro's statement on Mr Zapata is unprecedented, although the Cuban leader went on to lay the blame for his death at the door of the US. Mr Zapata was among a group of some 75 dissidents jailed by the authorities in 2003. He was initially sentenced to three years in prison, but this was increased to 25 years in subsequent trials after he was charged with disobedience and disorder in a penal establishment, London based Amnesty says.

According to the unofficial Cuba Human Rights Commission, about 30 dissidents have been detained over the past 24 hours in an attempt to stop them attending Mr. Zapata's funeral, our correspondant adds.."

Thu, 2010-02-25 01:29

Fidel

Hey Poop, what's your interest in this story? And do you think if dissidents in the states were on the take from foreign governments that they wouldn't be imprisoned?

Why do the Yanks not allow foreign ownership and control of any key sectors of their economy, but have corrupted our stooges into transforming our economy into a branch plant for corporate America's benefit here in the northern Panama?

And if dissdents in the states raised enough hell, does anyone think our corrupt stooges in Ottawa would promptly sever trade and diplomatic ties with our imperial master nation as the Cuban "dissidents" managed to achieve between Europe and Cuba? For some reason I highly doubt it.

Can we imagine what the "dissidents" rewards might be in future for aiding the Yanks to Balkanize and neoliberalize Cuba?

Thu, 2010-02-25 01:37

Doug

Lobbyists paid by foreign governments are allowed in the states as long as they declare it. There's an awful lot of it too. See here: http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fara/

I also seriously doubt you'd get 30 years for violating those laws too. More like a year at the nice country club prison for white-collar criminals.

Thu, 2010-02-25 02:14

NDPP

I'm interested in lots of stories Fidel - but especially ones about resistance or stories usually suppressed. Starving oneself to death in protest is not generally behaviour I associate with someone "on the take from foreign governments". How much did they pay him? But I have your point that you approve of his treatment as well as your trashing of his life, death and memory. I agree with some of what you say but blind loyalty, even 'left' blind loyalty, is no loyalty worth having actually.

Orlando Zapata RIP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Zapata_Tamayo

Thu, 2010-02-25 02:50

NDPP

Orlando Zapata Tamayo's Mother Speaks After Her Son's Death (vid)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yoani-sanchez/orlando-zapata-tamayos-mo_b_...

Thu, 2010-02-25 02:50

Fidel

Doug wrote:
Lobbyists paid by foreign governments are allowed in the states as long as they declare it. There's an awful lot of it too. See here: http://www.justice.gov/criminal/fara/

They can lobby all they want, but US economist Michael Hudson says the US government warned other western governments trading in US dollars in the 1970's that foreign takeovers of key sectors of American economy would be considered acts of war. Meanwhile since 1985, 36 key sectors of Canada's economy have been taken over by foreign capital and mostly American majority foreign ownership and control. In Canada our stooges have legalized stoogery and selling out Canadian public to foreign interests and mainly American ones. Here the stoogery and foreign thefts have been legalized by none other than Canada's stooges of the recent past wielding phony-majority dictatorial powers. And the free trade betrayals are partly the reasons they find phony-majority support from Canadian voters so elusive over the last half a dozen years.

Doug wrote:
I also seriously doubt you'd get 30 years for violating those laws too. More like a year at the nice country club prison for white-collar criminals.

What you're talking about is a system of US lobbying that was adopted by Canada during Mulroney era. The Cubans have no such agreement with the Yanks. And former CIA specialist on Latin America, Philip Agee, wrote that what the CIA has encouraged Cuban "dissidents" to perpetrate against their own government is known as sedition and on every country's law books. [url=http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4332.htm]Agee wrote:[/url]

Philip Agee wrote:
The US requires an individual or organisation “subject to foreign control” to register with the attorney general and to file detailed activities reports, including finances, every six months.

Cuba has its own laws criminalising actions intended to jeopardise its sovereignty or territorial integrity as well as actions supporting the goals of the anti-Cuba US Helms-Burton Act of 1996, such as collecting information to support the US embargo or to subvert the government, or for disseminating US government information to undermine the Cuban government [. . .]

Far from being “independent” journalists, “idealistic” human rights activists, “legitimate” advocates for change or “Marian librarians from River City”, every one of the 75 “dissidents” arrested and convicted was knowingly a participant in US government operations to overthrow the government and install a US-favoured political, economic and social order. They knew what they were doing was illegal, they got caught and they are paying the price.

Anyone who thinks these people are prisoners of conscience, persecuted for their ideas or speech, or victims of repression, simply fails to see them properly as instruments of a US government that has declared revolutionary Cuba its enemy.

Thu, 2010-02-25 02:55

Fidel

The dissidents are traitors to their country, just like Canada's two old line parties and corrupt stooges have been for us in the Northern Puerto Rico.

Thu, 2010-02-25 03:38

Fidel

Doug wrote:
I also seriously doubt you'd get 30 years for violating those laws too. More like a year at the nice country club prison for white-collar criminals.

Nearly 50 Americans protesting US Army School of the Americas (aka school of assassins) have served a combined 30 years in US gulags. America's prison population dwarfs that of any other country in the world for sheer numbers of citizens incarcerated as well as incarceration rates. Blacks are imprisoned in America today at six times the rate that was true of Pic Botha's apartheid South Africa.

And aside from the conveyer belts of death in US prison states carrying the death penalty for Americans guilty of crimes or not, mentally incapacitated and not: Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Florida etc, [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17342]The US routinely murders its own citizens[/url] And western news agencies would have us believe that US sponsored torture is a relatively new issue. It's not. The US government has been torturing people around the world for decades.

Thu, 2010-02-25 03:39

#10

NDPP

Fidel wrote:

The dissidents are traitors to their country, just like Canada's two old line parties and corrupt stooges have been for us in the Northern Puerto Rico.

NDPP

the abuse of this black prisoner who was never charged or convicted of 'sedition' or 'treason' or any of the things you allege, would be barbaric in any jurisdiction let alone a place where 'socialism' has supposedly triumphed. What else goes on there that we aren't supposed to hear about? Oh here's another 'contradiction'- look at Fidel's fancy capitalist slave-made NIKE gear:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/02/24/raul-castro-statement.html

Thu, 2010-02-25 03:58

#11

Fidel

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Fidel wrote:

The dissidents are traitors to their country, just like Canada's two old line parties and corrupt stooges have been for us in the Northern Puerto Rico.

NDPP

the abuse of this black prisoner who was never charged or convicted of 'sedition' or 'treason' or any of the things you allege, would be barbaric in any jurisdiction let alone a place where 'socialism' has supposedly triumphed. What else goes on there that we aren't supposed to hear about?

Exactly, You are jumping to conclusions about a country and relying on wikipedia and CBC bullshit as your main sources of information. If you're not going to comment on Philip Agee's essay on Cuba's "dissidents" and how the CIA operates in Latin America and beyond to overthrow governments, then how can you expect me to comment on your anti-Cuba propaganda ?

[url=http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/us-cuba-and-moral-authority]The US, Cuba and Moral Authority[/url] Black Agenda Report

Quote:
Such activities remain in effect today under the title “Cuba Program,” compliments of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). Anywhere such valid national security concerns exist countries cannot simply take for granted the integrity of each and every one of their citizens. But organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International refuse to factor in this added complexity when judging human rights in Cuba or any other country that falls prey to this improved regime change strategy of imperialism.

“One method used against Cuba is the bribing of Cuba’s own citizens to serve the empire against their own country.”
In response to this Cuba has had to enact laws specifically designed to keep its citizens from aiding and abetting the US’ immoral and internationally condemned Helms-Burton Act. The Helms-Burton Act (a.k.a. The Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity – Libertad – Act of 1996) strengthens and extends the territorial application of the initial US embargo against Cuba to apply to foreign companies trading with Cuba. In effect this transformed the embargo effectively into a blockade of the Island, hindering it from importing even the most basic of human necessities. This is reinforced by the use of Cuban nationals posing as political dissidents while disseminating false and misleading information on behalf of the US to justify the blockade.

They've been bribing our Tory and Liberal Party stooges in Ottawa for a long time.

Thu, 2010-02-25 04:32

#12

Doug

Fidel wrote:

Nearly 50 Americans protesting US Army School of the Americas (aka school of assassins) have served a combined 30 years in US gulags.

So 3/5ths of a year on average. That's tough and unnecessary, but not remotely in the same ballpark.

Quote:
And aside from the conveyer belts of death in US prison states carrying the death penalty for Americans guilty of crimes or not, mentally incapacitated and not: Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Florida etc, [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17342]The US routinely murders its own citizens[/url] And western news agencies would have us believe that US sponsored torture is a relatively new issue. It's not. The US government has been torturing people around the world for decades.

The USA is far from perfect as everyone knows, however, hold Cuba to the same standards. They still have the death penalty and also have been cited for mistreating prisoners.

Thu, 2010-02-25 05:17

#13

NDPP

Obviously the US let Fidel's NIKE gear through their blockade..

And whose "stooges in Ottawa" invited the evil empire's "Obama's inner circle" to their convention and sent out emails advising they were "learning from the best"?This is all beside the point. So let's not let our support for the right of self determination and resistance against US imperialism turn us into 'stooges' for unacceptable and barbaric treatment of prisoners - no matter who the prisoner or where the prison.

Thu, 2010-02-25 05:33

#14

Fidel

Doug wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Nearly 50 Americans protesting US Army School of the Americas (aka school of assassins) have served a combined 30 years in US gulags.

So 3/5ths of a year on average. That's tough and unnecessary, but not remotely in the same ballpark.

[url=http://soaw.org/pressrelease.php?id=147]FOUR MORE SOAW protesters jailed for protesting US school and for the export of terrorism and torture[/url] Two years combined.

US gulags are over-crowded today with US citizens who have not committed sedition against their government. Imagine what the consequences would be for anyone who does and is not murdered by the Whitehouse' executive death squads as a result. Like private US health care profits from not providing health care to Americans, the US prison-industrial complex profits by not guarding prisoners in over-crowded gulags and violating basic human rights on a regular basis.

And, the largest incarcerated population on the island of Cuba is still the USSA's illegal gulag for torture and basic human rights abuses at Guantanamo Bay naval base. The largest threat to human rights on the island of Cuba continues to be the illegal US military occupation carrying out US-sponsored detention and torture of people abducted from around the world.

And just 55 miles from Cuban shores is Haiti, the poorest country in the hemisphere and invaded umpteen times from last century to this in order to protect a handful of corrupt leaders and rich people from rebellions by a desperate majority suffering under oppressive rule. Haiti's first democratically elected leader was forcefully removed by the CIA-US Military and with help from a Liberal government in Ottawa.

Doug wrote:
The USA is far from perfect as everyone knows, however, hold Cuba to the same standards. They still have the death penalty and also have been cited for mistreating prisoners.

The USSA has no standards. US hawks have been waging economic warfare and covert warfare against Cuba since 1960. Gabriel García Márquez stated that the Cuban Five anti-terrolrists, "lobbyists against US based terrorism against Cuba, if we will, were known by the American FBI to be in Florida for some time before they were arrested. The whole world now knows that the US government has fomented anti-Cuban terrorism and even protected terrorists and war criminals in the past, from former Nazis to Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Jorge Videla, Augusto Pinochet and the fascist network of mercenaries and murderers who tortured and disappeared almost half a million Latin Americans under Operation Condor. And the USSA has denied anything to do with Gladio terror since WW II while most NATO countries directly involved have denounced their secret stay behind terrorist armies for perpetrating terror and murder against their own civilians. The vicious empire tends to incriminate itself.

So yes, I see some complications with expecting Cuba to play fair and square while engaged in decades long dirty war waged by the mainland. US-based terrorism against Cuba hasn't worked to destroy the resolve of Cubans, and neither will bribing Cuban "dissidents" into committing sedition. Sedition, as Philip Agee wrote, is on every country's law books. The "dissidents" knew they were breaking Cuban laws and were caught, and now they are paying the price.

Thu, 2010-02-25 06:28

#15

j.m.

I don't know what people's motivations are for highlighting and hiding this case.

My take on Castro's Cuba is that the socialist project has had to engage in creating the very "efficiencies" through violence that will allow the project to go smoothly. Nothing radically different than what the US, Chile, Italy, Spain, Dominican Republic, Zimbabwe, and so on have had to do with dictatorships and fascism.

Are the actions defensible by comparing US atrocities to those of Cuba? Hardly.

I proudly espouse socialist ideals, but this authoritarianism is toxic. I don't think the left can be so complacent with these actions even if Cuba appears (I can't emphasize that word enough) one of the last state manifestations of these ideals. It is injustice and we should call a spade a spade.

As for Fidel "Just Doin' It", I wonder how aware he is of what he is wearing given his current health. Can anyone confirm or provide insight into this?

Thu, 2010-02-25 07:36

#16

Fidel

j.m. wrote:
I don't know what people's motivations are for highlighting and hiding this case.

Except that no one is hiding the fact that Orlando Tamayo starved himself to death. Obviously the news of his death has reached the American and Canadian news agencies for you to read, has it not?

CBC.ca wrote:
In Castro's statement, which the Foreign Ministry released under a photograph of the Cuban leader, the president said Zapata Tamayo's death "is a result of the relationship with the United States." It was not clear what he meant.

What he meant? Could Raul have been referring to exactly what [url=http://www.counterpunch.org/agee08092003.html]former US dissident Philip Agee wrote in his essay: Terrorism and Civil Society - The Instruments of US Policy in Cuba[/url] ?

Or do Cuban "dissidents" pull some kind of rank over well-known U.S. dissidents among a minority of babblers for reasons no one is aware of? Funny that. There should be some sort of equal treatment of dissidents, if only for the sake of persuasive and credible argument in general.

Quote:
"Cuba has been condemned for not allowing its people to flee the island. That so many want to leave Cuba is treated as proof that Cuban socialism is a harshly repressive system, rather than that the U.S. embargo has made life difficult in Cuba. That so many millions more want to leave capitalist countries like Mexico, Nigeria, Poland, El Salvador, Philippines, South Korea, Macedonia, and others too numerous to list is never treated as grounds for questioning the free-market system that inflicts such misery on the Third World." - Dr. Michael Parenti

Thu, 2010-02-25 08:04

#17

Caissa

In other news Fidel is alive and well.

Cuba's ex-leader Fidel Castro is in good shape, Brazil's president has said following what is reported to have been an "emotional meeting".

Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Mr Castro, 83, looked "exceptionally well", state-run media reports.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8536454.stm

Thu, 2010-02-25 08:04

#18

Fidel

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Obviously the US let Fidel's NIKE gear through their blockade..

Hey Poop, maybe the Yanquis will consider letting Glaxo sell its [url=http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/latin-america-rising/meningitis-b-cuba... vaccine for meningitis b in the states[/url] where thousands of American children are at risk for infection every year. Sometimes the genocidal trade embargo is turned on ordinary American citizens by their own megalomaniacal psychopaths heading up the plutocracy eh.

Thu, 2010-02-25 13:50

#19

NDPP

7 Steps To Kill Orlando Zapata Tamayo

http://cruzarlasalambradaseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/seven-steps-to-ki...

"what I am about to expose seems to be the final seven steps taken by the repressive mechanism to kill Zapata.."

Thu, 2010-02-25 15:11

#20

Fidel

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15633]Big Brother: Secret State USA Monitors Protest, Represses Dissent[/url]

Quote:
As social networking becomes a dominant feature of daily life, the secret state is increasingly surveilling electronic media for what it euphemistically calls "actionable intelligence."

Take the case of Elliot Madison. The 41-year-old anarchist was arrested in Pittsburgh September 24 at the height of G20 protests.

Madison, a social worker and volunteer with The People's Law Collective in New York City, was busted by a combined task force led by the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP) and Pittsburgh's "finest." The activist was charged with "hindering apprehension or prosecution, criminal use of a communication facility and possession of instruments of crime," according to The New York Times.

Did the cops uncover a secret anarchist weapons' cache? Were Madison and codefendant, Michael Wallschlaeger, a producer with the radio talk show "This Week in Radical History" for the A-Infos Radio Project, about to detonate a "weapon of mass destruction" during last month's capitalist conclave that witnessed the obscene spectacle of our masters avidly conspiring to impoverish billions of the planet's inhabitants?

Hardly! In fact, Madison and Wallschlaeger's "crime" was to set up a communications center in a hotel room that alerted demonstrators to movements by the police, who after all, had viciously attacked protesters--and anyone else nearby--with heavy batons, tear gas and a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD), a so-called "non-lethal" weapon.

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8801]U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations[/url]

[url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Torture/US_Torture_Central.html]The United States As Torture Central[/url] U.S. sponsors regimes using torture extensively

[url=http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148#]The War on Democracy[/url] part one of several (YouTube)

The Cuban "dissidents" want Cuba to return to being a repressive police state run by a US-backed mafia regime in Havana. Cuba is surrounded by U.S.-sponsored shitholes where human rights take a back seat to kleptocracy and grinding poverty.

Thu, 2010-02-25 15:22

#21

Ghislaine

Why can there never be a thread on babble on Cuba without it being derailed by off-topic musings - most often by Fidel?

Thu, 2010-02-25 15:48

#22

Ken Burch

Why, whatever do you mean?

Thu, 2010-02-25 16:28

#23

NDPP

Brutal and sadistic prison practices should be exposed, investigated and condemned whether in one of Fidelio's 'US Sponsored mafia stooge run shitholes' or in Cuba. I too am a friend of Cuba but am shocked at these reports. Fidelio's position that the dead man was a seditious stooge working for the CIA who got what's coming to him, even were it true, doesn't warrant the kind of racist torture and cruelty apparently suffered by Zapata. Something is clearly very wrong with any system that allows such things.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:05

#24

Snert

Quote:
Why can there never be a thread on babble on Cuba without it being derailed by off-topic musings - most often by Fidel?

Because criticizing any aspect of "the revolution" betrays the revolution. To criticize the revolution, under any circumstances, is to do Uncle Sam's work for him for free. To criticize the revolution is to stand, arm in arm with George Bush. Sure, we could say "this is wrong" or "that is wrong", but where will that end? What if too many people start asking too many questions? Then what? How will we mobilize people for a glorious revolution of our own, if the masses are too busy asking things like "will *I* be thrown in jail?" and "will *I* be thrown in jail for asking if I'll be thrown in jail?". People need to see the revolution as perfect, and so the revolution needs guardians who also see it as perfect. Guardians who are willing to spin off on tangents or tell jokes or point fingers or sometimes say "Oh my God look over there it's a FLYING TURTLE!" if that's what it takes to keep people from asking questions. And remember that people start to believe things if they're said over and over. People start to believe things if they're said over and over. Over and over. Over and over. Gladio. Gladio. False-flag Gladio. Old line false-flag Gladio. Old line old line false flag Bananada Gladio. Old line false flag Gladio stooges. Over and over.

Cuba could set "dissidents" on fire in the streets as their children watch in horror and a small crew of dedicated guardians would point to the flying turtle and say "Gladio. Gladio. Gladio." until the fire went out.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:21

#25

kropotkin1951

I find this story disturbing and hope that the prison authorities that allowed this to occur are dealt with as harshly as Cuban law allows. I also hope that in Cuba unlike in Canada this police brutality will get an independent investigation not one conducted by people from the same police apparatus.

Sadly I doubt if I will get either of my hoped for outcomes.

http://mostlywater.org/elder_harriet_nahanee_dies_after_release_from_jail

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:27

#26

Doug

Snert wrote:

People need to see the revolution as perfect, and so the revolution needs guardians who also see it as perfect. Guardians who are willing to spin off on tangents or tell jokes or point fingers or sometimes say "Oh my God look over there it's a FLYING TURTLE!" if that's what it takes to keep people from asking questions.

Pretty much, and it's a pet peeve of mine that people would defend behaviour by the Cuban government that they'd deplore if anyone else did it.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:42

#27

kropotkin1951

Strange my pet peeve is people and the MSM who defend behaviour by the US government that they'd deplore if anyone else did it.

Torture is wrong, police beatings are wrong. Full stop no degree of difficulty points or moral hurdles.

I don't know whether this is an isolated instance of police brutality or if occurs with the same frequency as in Canadian jails. Aboriginal separatists who are unruly and refuse to abide by prison rules are treated extremely badly right here in Canada. That is different of course than the ones who get sentenced and serve out their sentences without trying to disrupt the running of the prison. I don't know what the apples to apples comparison is with Canada but I know we have some serious planks in our own eyes.

It is wrong for Cuba and it is wrong for NAFTA countries also. No prisoner no matter how many prison rules he refuses to abide by should be beaten or mistreated.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:44

#28

Fidel

There are people detained in gulags for torture and gross human rights abuses on the island of Cuba and charged under US Military-kanagaroo law of fictitious crimes while being denied legitimate legal defence. At the US Naval base at Guantanamo Bay they are found found guilty of being Al-CIA'da terrorists. Al CIA'da is a ficititious terrorist organization created by the CIA in the 1980s and 90s for waging holy anticommunist jihad against a cold war threat that doesn't exist anymore. The US and its friendlies in the Middle East, Asia and Africa use the threat of Al-CIA'da terrorism whenever they need to repress dissent and political opposition in their own thirdworld capitalist hellholes and poverty-stricken US client states.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:48

#29

Unionist

Snert wrote:

Cuba could set "dissidents" on fire in the streets as their children watch in horror and a small crew of dedicated guardians would point to the flying turtle and say "Gladio. Gladio. Gladio." until the fire went out.

Tired of attacking Cuba - so you've decided that our Fidel is an easier target?

The media are reporting that this is the first case of its kind since 1972. They are also reporting that the Cuban authorities are denying that they abused this prisoner.

If you have credible evidence to the contrary, please cite it, and we'll compare notes and see how much we can conclude.

Or, you can say, "Look over there - There's that FLYING FIDEL! - these people will say ANYTHING to defend the communists!!!"

Your choice.

Thu, 2010-02-25 17:58

#30

Fidel

No one on the left cares about the phony dissidents in Cuba because they broke the law and are now paying the price for having broken Cuban laws against sedition. In Cuba it's against the law to help Yanqui imperialists in any way to enforce the very rightwing Helms-Burton law for genocidal trade embargo and reporting false information to be used to deny Cuba trade with non-Yanqui trading nations uch as the EU. These people were betrayed by the US interests section "diplomats" who were in Cuba at the time the fake dissidents were arrested. The Yanquis were actually trying to get themselves arrested along with the people they betrayed in Cuba. They ended up throwing themselves out of Cuba.

We don't have those same laws in Canada because our corrupt stooges have willingly sold out Canadians and our public interests to corporate America years ago. ie. Liberals and Tories, Tories and Liberals and vice versa. Yes, we have no bananas. And we don't have a national energy plan. At least not one written by Canadians for Canadians in the interests of Canadians.

Thu, 2010-02-25 18:36

#31

Snert

Quote:
If you have credible evidence to the contrary, please cite it, and we'll compare notes and see how much we can conclude.

I need to provide proof that a prisoner was abused in custody when the government involved denies it?

I think that's another first of its kind since 1972.

Anyway, why not look to whatever media you were quoting? Unless the story is that this never happened, but if it did happen, it was the first time since 1972,

Thu, 2010-02-25 18:36

#32

Unionist

Snert wrote:

Quote:
If you have credible evidence to the contrary, please cite it, and we'll compare notes and see how much we can conclude.

I need to provide proof that a prisoner was abused in custody when the government involved denies it?

I think that's another first of its kind since 1972.

Ok, thanks for critiquing Fidel's partisanship by revealing your own.

Thu, 2010-02-25 18:52

#33

Fidel

He didn't starve himself to death - the evol Cuban system didn't even try to force feed him through intravenous drip. Tamayo's death was a direct order from the beard his evol self!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/dr-evil2.jpg[/IMG]

Those evol mini-me cucarachas have gone too far this time.

Prisoners try to commit suicide all the time in US gulags.:

[url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/Return_Madhouse.html]Return of the Madhouse[/url] Supermax prisons are becoming the high-tech equivalent of the nineteenth-century snake pit

Quote:
According to Thomas Conklin, a psychiatrist and medical director at the Hampden County Jail in Massachusetts who was called on to evaluate mental-health care in one Texas supermax, "All suicide gestures by inmates [were] seen as manipulating the correctional system with the conscious intent of secondary gain. In not one case was the inmate's behavior seen as reflecting mental pathology that could be treated." In most supermaxes, this kind of thinking still seems to be the norm.

Thu, 2010-02-25 19:15

#34

A_J

Fidel wrote:
No one on the left cares about the phony dissidents in Cuba because they broke the law and are now paying the price for having broken Cuban laws against sedition. In Cuba it's against the law to help Yanqui imperialists in any way to enforce the very rightwing Helms-Burton law for genocidal trade embargo and reporting false information to be used to deny Cuba trade with non-Yanqui trading nations uch as the EU. These people were betrayed by the US interests section "diplomats" who were in Cuba at the time the fake dissidents were arrested. The Yanquis were actually trying to get themselves arrested along with the people they betrayed in Cuba. They ended up throwing themselves out of Cuba.

I feel very sorry for you Fidel.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just being your usual troll self because I would hate to even imagine that you, or anyone for that matter, would believe even a fraction of what you've written here in this thread.

Thu, 2010-02-25 19:23

#35

Doug

"But...but...the US!" has never been an excuse for Cuba's human rights problem and never will. The US has its own problems and we've spent many a thread on those too.

Thu, 2010-02-25 19:38

#36

j.m.

...And I would respect the positions of others that are berating Fidel if only they weren't doing it as token for some sort of larger ideological battle with the left.

Yes, don't defend the indefensible, but don't speak with indignation when it's very obvious you are overlooking more egregious cases - or sidestepping them.

Thu, 2010-02-25 20:12

#37

RosaL

Doug wrote:

"But...but...the US!" has never been an excuse for Cuba's human rights problem and never will. The US has its own problems and we've spent many a thread on those too.

I haven't seen any credible evidence however: just the bbc (which is consistently hostile to cuba and to socialism in general) and a "restore capitalism" blog from cuba.

Thu, 2010-02-25 20:40

#38

A_J

j.m. wrote:
Yes, don't defend the indefensible, but don't speak with indignation when it's very obvious you are overlooking more egregious cases - or sidestepping them.

Well, there's a huge difference between overlooking or sidestepping crimes and loudly celebrating them, as Fidel is doing.

Thu, 2010-02-25 20:40

#39

Fidel

j.m. wrote:

...And I would respect the positions of others that are berating Fidel if only they weren't doing it as token for some sort of larger ideological battle with the left.

Yes, don't defend the indefensible, but don't speak with indignation when it's very obvious you are overlooking more egregious cases - or sidestepping them.

What the "dissidents" are saying in so many ways without actually saying it is that they were betrayed by then US "diplomat" in Havana, James Cason and the CIA. Cason fled Cuba after he realized that the Cubans were not going to throw him out of the country for his anti-Cuban activities.

Imagine that you've knowingly broken Cuban laws after being coerced and paid to do so. And now your false friends in America would rather that you rot in a Cuban prison sooner than offer to trade five Cuban patriots and anti-terrorists sitting in US gulags for the crimes of trying to prevent US-based terrorism against Cuba. You're now worth more as a "prisoner of conscience" in Cuba than you are as a potential comrade and political ally in the land of liberty. And the only way your American friends would want to welcome you to the land of freedom now would be for you to break out of prison - hijack a Cuban airliner - and fly it to that bankrupt state known as Florida and home to all kinds of US-sponsored terrorists and Latin American dictators who've had to flee the people's justice in their countries over the last 40 to 50 years. I think I might be suicidal after such a betrayal by my Gusano and Gringo false friends. I don't think I would want to have to be a plane hikjacker(like [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3422]Ali Mohamed[/url] or other [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cuba-United_States_aircraft_hijacki... hijacking terrorists[/url]) in order for the FBI or RCMP to grant me entry into the land of freedom.

Thu, 2010-02-25 20:46

#40

Fidel

If I were the Gringos and cared anything about the Cuban "dissidents" I betrayed, I think I would offer to trade the Five Cuban anti-terrorist patriots for some or all of the poetry-writing dissidents in Cuban jails who thought they were going to be rewarded by the Gringos for betraying their countrymen in Cuba. But no, the martyred dissidents are worth more to the gringos as "prisoners of conscience" in Cuba. The Cubans would gladly send them to the states in exchange for the Cuban patriots and counter-Gladios sitting in US gulags on trumped up charges

Thu, 2010-02-25 20:53

#41

RosaL

A_J wrote:

j.m. wrote:
Yes, don't defend the indefensible, but don't speak with indignation when it's very obvious you are overlooking more egregious cases - or sidestepping them.

Well, there's a huge difference between overlooking or sidestepping crimes and loudly celebrating them, as Fidel is doing.

I am sure the CIA et al are celebrating this man's death - quietly - while ensuring that it gets as much publicity as possible. And, to repeat a point that no one seems to want to address, to say that Fidel is celebrating crimes rather begs the question.

Thu, 2010-02-25 22:46

#42

Doug

He's not celebrating them and I don't think it's fair to accuse him of that. What he is doing though is justifying the treatment of Cuban dissidents (surely not ALL of them are CIA-funded) as a regretful necessity to protect the Cuban status quo. I think while there's much worth protecting in it, the political system doesn't fall into that category. If Cubans are satistfied, well, allowing some who don't think so to speak their minds is hardly going to change anything, is it?

Thu, 2010-02-25 23:06

#43

j.m.

I am not a fan of the narrative of Cuba as a passive victim of the US given that they engage in a variety of strategies to thwart political assembly and dissidence within the country. Cuba doesn't even allow the ICRC to make regular visits to prisons, so I can hardly imagine that Cuba is merely protecting itself from the US, but rather engages in paranoiac practices and authoritarianism.

Without naming names and evoking comments from others boards, it is very obvious what is going on here. There are people who have spewed hostility towards socialist ideals, or have defended Western ideals, markets, institutions, etc. that are having a field day. Your concerns are really disingenuous.

Thu, 2010-02-25 23:55

#44

Fidel

Doug wrote:

He's not celebrating them and I don't think it's fair to accuse him of that. What he is doing though is justifying the treatment of Cuban dissidents (surely not ALL of them are CIA-funded) as a regretful necessity to protect the Cuban status quo. I think while there's much worth protecting in it, the political system doesn't fall into that category. If Cubans are satistfied, well, allowing some who don't think so to speak their minds is hardly going to change anything, is it?

I tend to agree with former US dissident Philip Agee in his assessment of the situation back then. He also said that it's not likely all of the dissidents were courted by the CIA. But he said very many of them were found to be in possession of large amounts of US cash. Years after the Solidarity with Polish shipyard workers brought down a communist government in Poland , Senator Jesse Helms introduced legislation to do in Cuba what the CIA, NED, USAID and Vatican pulled off in Poland and allocating $100 million USD for the task. If the Yanks don't want to consider political interference in other countries to be illegal, then they surely don't want to admit that they've crossed a fine line between funding promotion of democracy and overthrowing foreign governments for purposes of installing puppet regimes friendly to "U.S. interests" synonymous with corporate America's interests. But with Cuba there is no momentum for regime change, and the CIA knows it. So what did Cason and CIA intend to achieve in Havana all those years ago? Agee explained what happened from "the company's" point of view.

Fri, 2010-02-26 10:43

#45

Snert

Quote:
If Cubans are satistfied, well, allowing some who don't think so to speak their minds is hardly going to change anything, is it?

Exactly. If a few "Yanquis" saying "Oh, isn't KKKapitalism better than this" is a genuine threat then I have to think that the Cubans' commitment to their own revolution is pretty weak.

"Long live the Revolution... at least until someone mentions another possibility, in which case let's switch!!!"

Fri, 2010-02-26 11:39

#46

kropotkin1951

Try starting a party in Canada or the Excited States dedicated to founding an Islamic Republic in either country with funds from Iran and see how long you remain free?

When the Commies in this country actually began to do well in the political process they were jailed and intimated. That is Canadian history not some idyllic democratic tradition.

Long Live Democracy as long Corporations Control the Economy.

Fri, 2010-02-26 12:47

#47

Fidel

Snert wrote:

Quote:
If Cubans are satistfied, well, allowing some who don't think so to speak their minds is hardly going to change anything, is it?

Exactly. If a few "Yanquis" saying "Oh, isn't KKKapitalism better than this" is a genuine threat then I have to think that the Cubans' commitment to their own revolution is pretty weak.

Well that was the problem for the CIA and Cason then. They knew there was little momentum for regime change in Cuban at turn of the decade. Their goal in the late 90's-2001 was not to foment social unrest in Cuba as they did in the Balkans and other countries then. Their goals were much simpler, and that was to provoke the Cubans into arresting James Cason and throwing him out of the country. Instead the Cubans ignored the "career bureaucrat" Cason and arrested the Cubans for taking money from the alleged to be privately funded US-based NGO's. The money obviously came from the US government for regime change in Cuba.

And the Cubans remember all too well the US-backed mafia regime and the racist policies imposed on them from the continent. Even Batista and some of his secret police were barred from entering Havana's swankiest yacht club back then as were all blacks and mulattos. The CIA and mafia friends just want to use Cuba to run drugs from Colombia to the mainland like they've done with Haiti. Cubans don't want those bad old days back again. Yanqui imperialism isn't very well regarded in Cuba.

Fri, 2010-02-26 14:49

#48

sanizadeh

Fidel wrote:

The dissidents are traitors to their country, just like Canada's two old line parties and corrupt stooges have been for us in the Northern Puerto Rico.

Not being familar with the details of this case, can I ask what specifically he had done, or which laws he had broken? All I see in this thread are vague references to helping the US.

Fri, 2010-02-26 15:00

#49

kropotkin1951

I would think he was arrested for the Canadian equivalent of Contempt of Court. In Canada you can protest until you are told by a judge to stop. Then if you continue you are arrested for contempt of the court order telling you too stop. I don't know the Cuban system but at some point their government also says you have used up your right to protest go home.

He was also sentenced for the crime of refusing to follow the prison rules much like in Canada where if you cause disturbances in prison they will charge you with a new crime.

I am far more concerned with the fact that he was beaten in jail, that is unacceptable and the perpetrators if it occurred must be brought to justice.

I think that people should have the right to protest but since we restrict protests in Canada by jailing people until they agree to not protest anymore then it is hard to judge other countries by a different standard. If he just accepted his sentence like the others he would have been out of jail years ago. If our grandmothers in BC had merely signed papers saying they would not go back and protest on the bluffs they would not have been jailed. He refused and they refused and they were both locked up for their refusal to stop protesting.

The people who are quick to condemn Cuba don't seem to be the people who regularly support the ABSOLUTE right to protest in Canada even when told to stop by our courts.

[quote]

On March 18, six members of the Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug (KI) First Nation were sentenced to six months in jail for contempt of court, for opposing mining company operations on their traditional lands in Northwestern Ontario. The imprisoned leaders include the majority of members of the KI Band Council.

This follows similar contempt of court sentences against activists from the Ardoch Algonquin First Nation, near Kingston Ontario, for blocking uranium mining operations on their land.

[quote]
http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=268

Fri, 2010-02-26 15:01

#50

Fidel

sanizadeh wrote:

Fidel wrote:

The dissidents are traitors to their country, just like Canada's two old line parties and corrupt stooges have been for us in the Northern Puerto Rico.

Not being familar with the details of this case, can I ask what specifically he had done, or which laws he had broken? All I see in this thread are vague references to helping the US.

I was referring to the essay on this very subject concerning the 75 Cuban dissidents and written by a well known U.S. dissident and former CIA specialist on Latin America, Philip Agee, and quoted in several posts above.

Imagine being a political pariah in not one but two countries. Imagine being betrayed by the very people who were paying you to aid and abet the overthrow of your own government? Imagine being wanted by neither country? And you're in prison and pondering your will to live.

Fri, 2010-02-26 15:11

#51

Snert

In Canada, do we regularly imprison protesters for the [i]political content[/i] of their protest, or is it for the [i]form[/i] of their protest?

In other words, is it actually illegal to, say, protest our current government with a letter writing campaign? Or does it become illegal if I choose to trespass, disrupt or break something?

I think we need to be clear about the difference.

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