Ontario MPPs - including NDP - condemn Israeli Apartheid Week in Legislature Part II

Skinny Dipper wrote:

Hi Pogge,

The NDP could have opposed Shurman's private member bill for the reasons you presented.  The party would have needed to use a lot of resources to deal with the potential accusation that it is an anti-Semitic party.  This could help or hurt the party in parts of Toronto.  It would hurt the NDP in northern Ontario and parts of Hamilton where the voters place issues related to the Middle East in low priority.  If there are strong spokespersons that opposed Shurman's bill, the NDP could possibly survive the anti-anti-Semitic attacks from members of the Jewish community and their supporters.  Since I don't see any person in the NDP willing to take up the battle in support of IAW, I think the NDP was wise not to oppose Shurman's private member bill.

You make it sound as though there are no Jews would support and defend the NDPs position should they have taken a principled stand. There are many Jews who would disagree with you. I hope you don't speak for the ONDP as your presented defense reeks of weasely cowardice and is only annoying me more than I already am. I will not support a party too afraid of bullies to defend the weak.

If you have nothing to say, say nothing or go somewhere else.

Wow, just look at the type of people Cheri Di Novo has joined forces with:

Quote:
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"That this House considers itself to be a friend of the State of Israel; that this House is concerned about expressions of anti-Semitism under the guise of "Israeli Apartheid Week"; and that this House explicitly condemns any action in Canada as well as internationally that would equate the State of Israel with the rejected and racist policy of apartheid."
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Di Novo has given her Conservative friends ammunition to use against activists who she should be standing in solidarity with so that they can smear us with accusations of "anti-semitism", and now the federal Conservatives are ratcheting up the rhetoric.

That's pretty awesome. Thanks very much. And it seems to me that unless her party leader specifically distances the party from Di Novo's statement in the Legislature (that statement Horwath released doesn't address Di Novo's statement at all), then it's hard not to consider Di Novo's statement as being sanctioned by the ONDP. It doesn't undo the damage Di Novo has done, nor the fact that she is standing in solidarity with Conservatives instead of activists.

Stockholm wrote:

I have plenty to say - you just don't agree with it. If you can't stand the heat - stay out of the kitchen.

BTW: Getting back to the larger topic. What would people think if an annual event was started entitled "Islamic Homophobia and Misogyny Week"? Would you see it as a perfectly legitimate title for an event that was well within the bounds of debate in Canada - whether ytou personally liked it or not - or would you see it as thinly veiled "islamophobia" and gratuitously inflammatory?

What if some Falun Gong supporters start a "Chinese Gestapo Week"?

Actually you're saying nothing and contributing less. I would expect the sort of childish tripe above from under-educated Sun Media Israelil racism sycophants, but not on Babble. I had forgotten just how incredibly thick and stupid you really are.

Mods can ban be now that was a purposeful personal attack and I will stand by it as I believe every word to be accurate and truthful.

I agree with bagkitty here. I don't have to approve of Hamas to be allowed to protest how Palestinians are treated in the occupiued territories. I suspect that the Tamil Tigers are not exactly rah-rah about gay rights either - that doesn't mean we should look the other way when there are human rights abuses in norther Sri Lanka.

"I agree with bagkitty here. I don't have to approve of Hamas to be allowed to protest how Palestinians are treated in the occupiued territories. I suspect that the Tamil Tigers are not exactly rah-rah about gay rights either - that doesn't mean we should look the other way when there are human rights abuses in norther Sri Lanka."

But you must use politically correct speak.

"BTW: Getting back to the larger topic. What would people think if an annual event was started entitled "Islamic Homophobia and Misogyny Week"? Would you see it as a perfectly legitimate title for an event that was well within the bounds of debate in Canada - whether ytou personally liked it or not - or would you see it as thinly veiled "islamophobia" and gratuitously inflammatory?"

There would be endless vitriolic postings here and big tire-burning demonstrations elsewhere.

While all racists are idiots, not all idiots are racists.

Well, before we get completely lost in tangents why don't we simply propose a "Misogyny and Homophobia in the Abrahamic Tradition Week" - lots of source material, no need to single out any of the big three, and we can pull in a few of the lesser known monotheistic groups too... Not only would it be more "politcally correct speak", it would be much more accurate, and would reduce the opportunities (though not eliminate them) for any one of the flavours to manipulate the theme to attack the blasphemers of one of the other flavours.

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

or when Cuba mistreats political prisoners...?

Or when vicious empire central supports both Israeli terrorism against Palestinians and US-based terrorism against Cuba simultaneously. In which case it's our duty to attack the third political party in Ontario in protest of it all. We'll show US and Israeli hawks that they can't get away with imperialism so easily.

I don't know about anyone else, but having lived with a victim of torture from the "Islamic Republic of Iran" I can also say that I have a problem with any state privileging one religion over others, and having discriminatory laws on that basis. Including Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

Of course, if defenders of Israeli apartheid want to hold up the Islamic Republic of Iran as some sort of fabulous example of how to run government, and feel it's a good thing for Israel to emulate, then of course they're quite free to do so. And we're free to laugh at them.

bagkitty wrote:

Okay Fidel, I am part of the way there, but at the first mention of "bourgeois decadence" I am leaving you and joining the angry mob with pitchforks and torches... we all have our breaking point.

Well I completely and thoroughly understand why western newz media and governments won't  listen to Hamas. Apparently Hamas won't agree to meet three conditions for the road map to peace, the one which the UN, USA, Russia, and Israel hammered out and was formally accepted. One requirement is that Hamas has to accept the road map, which vicious empire central in Warshington and Israel reject by caveats and addendums but only reject it as long as Hamas renounces violence and recognizes Israel. And Hamas must accept that Israel and vicious empire central in Warshington can never recognize a Palestinian state, because that would mean allowing Palestinians to live a civilized existence. So I'm all for bringing down the third party in Ontario legislature as a result. They can't be allowed to continue supporting and enabling this imperialist setup from the supreme halls of power in Toronto. Let's teach the NDP a lesson on this one. It's more clear to me now. As clear as an unmuddied lake. As clear as an azure sky in the deepest of summer.

Peech wrote:

Why do we not see "Victim of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran week"? Why are you singularly obsessed with Israel whilst minimizing or ignoring atrocities of states much much worse?

That's been answered endlessly in conversations like this but now we have a whole new rebuttal. When a member of my government announces that an attack on Iran is an attack on Canada you can be sure that I'll be taking a much closer look at Iran to see if it's the kind of country with whom I believe we should have that kind of relationship. It's our government which has singled out Israel for special attention.

Peech wrote:

Michelle wrote:

I don't know about anyone else, but having lived with a victim of torture from the "Islamic Republic of Iran" I can also say that I have a problem with any state privileging one religion over others, and having discriminatory laws on that basis. Including Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Of course, if defenders of Israeli apartheid want to hold up the Islamic Republic of Iran as some sort of fabulous example of how to run government, and feel it's a good thing for Israel to emulate, then of course they're quite free to do so. And we're free to laugh at them.

My cousin  was a victim of a murder suicide (aka. "Palestinian resistance") while she was having lunch in a restaurant .  So I have a problem with anyone proclaiming that they have a right to call for the eradication of another nation state or murder it's members. Especially when it is  a double standard which was the whole point of my post which obviously anyone mired in ideology is blind to.

Why do we not see "Victims of Torture from the Fascist Islamic Republic of Iran week"? Why are you singularly obsessed with Israel whilst minimizing or ignoring atrocities of states much much worse? That is the point of the condemnation of IAW.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Stargazer points to peech who bares her heart and calls her a hypocrite. OK

I hear that a similar motion will be brought forward in the House of Commons when they get back

Why would the NDP lose the support of people who don't care about the issue?  They don't care.

Furthermore, if this is a matter of the NDP doing some political calculations on who they can throw under the bus, then I think people who care about Palestinians should simply not support the NDP.  They've decided they don't want our support, so there should be no complaining from NDPers when they don't get it.

Fidel wrote:

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

or when Cuba mistreats political prisoners...?

Or when vicious empire central supports both Israeli terrorism against Palestinians and US-based terrorism against Cuba simultaneously. In which case it's our duty to attack the third political party in Ontario in protest of it all. We'll show US and Israeli hawks that they can't get away with imperialism so easily.

Your first statement is correct and after that you're off the rails

the contortions, apologetics and attempts to prove wrong actions right whenever your pseudo socialist icons are involved are obvious and unnecessary. It was unconscionable for the NDP to join in a full frontal attack upon the Palestinian rights movement. And for you to support them in this.

Fidel, so that you don't conflate political support for criticism of actions, can I state that I can find what the NDP are doing is wrong, even if they are still a good party option?

Isn't it a bad idea to let them make this mistake AND uncritically support them in making it?

Or that one party can deal with many issues at the same time. Charlie Angus is advocating hard right now for Vale Inco. No one is debating how hard  NDP works. When the party you vote for starts to endorse positions that are more acceptable to the right than the left, this is when people question membership and/or voting for that party. Obama is doing bad now because he is throwing everyone under the bus. I don't think that's a good thing to do. And there are a lot of people pissed at this. We are pretty capable of being upset at a lot of things all at the same time.

LP, I think Skinny Dipper has a point.

When the federal NDP called for immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, everyone accused it of supporting the stoning of women and the attack on the Twin Towers. It cost millions in resources to survive that. Remember? And was it worth it? No one cares about foreign policy. They should have just lined up with Paul Martin and Steve Harper.

Likewise, when they alone opposed the War Measures Act in the House, they had to spend decades and more millions to convince people that they didn't favour stuffing bodies of provincial ministers in the trunks of cars and bombing mailboxes in wealthy neighbourhoods. Hey?

And when Tommy Douglas introduced medicare - my Lord, the charge of "Bolshevik agitator" still hasn't worn off! It's by pure serendipitous accident that he got voted greatest Canadian. Had he been smart, he would have just gone with the flow. Private health care isn't bad. Look at the U.S., and they're the richest country in the universe!

So, listen to Skinny's argument: Because voters don't care about the Middle East, the ONDP should get out there and oppose Israel Apartheid Week! That way, it won't get bogged down. Why, the leader won't even have to write letters explaining that Cheri DiNovo is a cowardly asshole!!

With logic like this, how can we possibly lose?

I hope I got it all straight. Here in Québec, things tend to be more black and white.

Fidel, my party right or wrong is not a philosophy many of us chose to live by. Just saying.

Upon further reflection, Cheri may just have saved Western civilization, by her bold re-writing of the Passover liturgy, her open door policy to "Rabbinic" friends, and her invocation to the besieged and disenfranchised Palestinian people to, first and foremost, keep the peace. Fidel, for years you have pointed out that provincial politicians should not pronounce themselves on foreign policy. I now see the wisdom of those words. Cheri should be fitted with a muzzle.

Unionist wrote:

aka Mycroft wrote:

On Atzmon - he actually is an anti-semite and a rather crude on at that having taken a few stabs at Holocaust denial and also argued that Jews ritually murdered Christian babies.

I was definitely [b]not[/b] aware of all that - thanks for the info. I can now hate him without my previous nuance.

 

...that was easy...

Stargazer wrote:

Fidel, my party right or wrong is not a philosophy many of us chose to live by. Just saying.

I understand that,  I really do. But if we've already decided and made up our minds that Dinovo is wrong, and that the NDP is wrong on this for the exact same reasons the other two parties are wrong, well then there isn't much point in discussing it further. Israeli apartheid observance week is where it's at.

However, what I do think is that universities should continue being incubators of independent thought. Let them decide how and what to think about the situation with debate and discussion. There is the potential for one-sided debate in a public place of higher learning. That's not good either. In order for debate to take place, one side or the other can't be made to feel as if they are in enemy territory by declaring campuses pro-Palestinian incubators of pre-packaged thought for the resistance. Might as well just hoist the hammer and sickle atop the reichstag and be done with it.

 Dinovo did say that the motion passed in legislature is symbolic. I believe our political representatives are also diplomats for Canada at the same time and not to promote hate speech or anything close to it in either our public universities or when speaking in public places.

Cheri Dinovo wrote:

"That's not to say there's not a valid discussion. Apartheid does not help the discussion. What we like to speak about is the occupation (of Palestinian territory), the wall, other issues that face us," she said.