Largest Military Operation in Afghan War Begins - Civilian Casualties 'Inevitable' Part 2

remind wrote:

Oh ffs P4, you well know what quote I am talking about...so stop trying to skew the optics away from post #42....that was in reference to your post # 40, where you indicate that it was like when likened you to the guy I witnessed who shot his wife.

You were NOT in the thread where I mentioned that, as such i could not have likened you to said guy. Therefore it is quite apparent you are either snert or p-sto, who were in that thread, though I did not liken them/you to said murdering guy either.

 

Oh the gas station guy comment.

I didn't know used it in another thread, not that you believe me.   I remember saying I "enjoyed shooting" a while ago and it was some how twisted into me being like the man you saw shooting his wife at a gas station or something.  I brought it up because when you made the White nato comment it sounded like you were trying to accuse me of racisim and figured sure just tag it on to my crazy shooting imagine.

Quote:

your exposing of a sock puppet,  

Lets get something straight here, Snert is the sock puppet, I'm the brains of the operation (=

Just kidding.

The RAWA article mentioned the Washington Post, but all i could find here were references to US commanders 'reaching out' to Hekmatyar in letters, with possible offers of aid to his region and removal from target lists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/13/AR200910...

even that is bad enough.  if the US is doing this, why doesn't it similarly 'reach out' to the civilians in Marjah or Kandahar instead of bombing them?

Afghanistan Bans Coverage of Taliban Attacks

http://rawstory.com/2010/03/afghanistan-bans-coverage-attacks-detain-off...

"Afghanistan announced a ban on news coverage of Taliban strikes on Monday, saying such coverage only emboldened the Islamist militants..Journalists will only be allowed to cover the aftermath of Taliban attacks with permission from the National Directorate of Security (NDS) spy agency, the agency said. It threatened to detain journalists who film attacks without permission and confiscate their equipment..

'Live coverage does not benefit the government, but benefits the enemies of Afghanistan,' NDS spokesman Saeed Ansan said.."

Frmrsldr wrote:

As a soldier and if you've served in the 'Ghan, how do you feel about the fact that Hekmatyar (and his HIG network) and other radical mujihadeen were created, supported and financed by the CIA? That they might still be on the CIA payroll(?)

How do you feel about the fact that while Canadian soldiers are fighting and dying in this war, the U.S., U.K. and Karzai governments are holding negotiations with these insurgent and warlord commanders offering them positions in our sock puppet Karzai government?

Well the usual reaction is OMG WTF we died for nothing what is the government doing making deals?! OUTRAGE.

Truth is, that's what governments do. They make deals.  I think in the end it'll come down to a deal between the Karzai government and Taliban.  The lives of our soldiers being used to bring the Taliban to the negeoation table. Everyone will be happy with a less radical nice Taliban that promises to be good.  We'll have a victory parade and pat ourselves on the back for accepting the lesser of two evils.

A soldiers life is basically currency for their government, as cold as that sounds.

How do I feel about the deal making process?  In order to "completely bring the Taliban to heel and route out all existance of them" in Afghanistan "we" would have to do some very brutal and horrible things. I'm not prepared to partake in that level of brutality and neither are most people if you ask me.

Japan and German [and friends] did some very brutal shit in WW2 and years later we are in Afghanistan WITH Germany and Japan owns how much of North America?  I know we did bad things too but my point is allies become enemies and enemies become friends. This deal making isn't something new.  I've made peace with the fact that I've had friends die by the Taliban and I may very well be rubbing shoulders with members of the Taliban armed forces or something 10 years down the road on some peace keeping mission.

Quote:

It's a real bullshit war, isn't it?

Yup! All wars are.

[quote=PraetorianFour]

Japan and German [and friends] did some very brutal shit in WW2 and years later we are in Afghanistan WITH Germany and Japan owns how much of North America?  I know we did bad things too but my point is allies become enemies and enemies become friends. This deal making isn't something new.  I've made peace with the fact that I've had friends die by the Taliban and I may very well be rubbing shoulders with members of the Taliban armed forces or something 10 years down the road on some peace keeping mission.

[quote]

The analogy doesn't hold. We (the U.S.A. in particular) didn't create the Italian fascists, German nazis and Japanese militarists. Those countries' societies created these movements largely themselves. In 1945, the U.S.A dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. Even if atomic weapons were available, we probably wouldn't have used them against Germany because Germany is a caucasian European state. Our attitude was that Japan is an Asian state largely populated by an Oriental people. Therefore it was acceptable to use such a terrible weapon against them.

The fact that Japan is an industrial state and a capitalist advanced economy, has caused a slight change in this regard concerning our views on Japan.

In contrast, in the case of Afghanistan, the CIA was instrumental in creating, arming, supplying and supporting the radical jihadist Islamist mujihadeen and warlords, later including the Taliban. Back in the early 1970s the Pentagon created this current war/mess and the insurgents our troops are senselessly fighting against and being killed by.

"... I may very well be rubbing shoulders with members of the Taliban armed forces or something 10 years down the road on some peace keeping mission."

Not likely. In order for this to happen, we need to change our capitalist/imperialist and racist prejudices first. There is too much oil in the region, too much strategic minerals in Afghanistan and too many American rivals in the area like Russia, China and India in order for Uncle Sam to allow this to happen.

We are losing the war. The insurgent commanders know this. The fact that we are offering negotiations with the insurgents is a sign of weakness to the insurgent commanders. If they accept any terms, they have a non-negotiable term for us: that all foreign troops leave Afghanistan. Hell, if they can pull this PR stunt off with their own people, the insurgent commanders might even agree to lay down their arms, swear to abide by the Afghan Constitution, accept payments and positions in the government and even allow foreign troops to remain in Afghanistan - yet quietly behind our backs, have their insurgent networks continue fighting against us - so in the end, we leave just like in Vietnam: our societies become so sick of this senseless war that governments will have to listen to the people or face political "death by suicide".

'We Don't Do Torture,' Says DND's New Ethics Guide

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/todays-paper/torture+says+ethics+guide...

"The Canadian army has produced an ethics guide to help equip soldiers to be 'ethical warriors' who will instinctively do the right thing.."

OK to invade them, occupy them, install puppets, steal their resources, shoot them, bomb them, poison them with DU etc etc, but no  rough stuff or name-calling! 'Ethical warriors' for US Imperialism...yeah right.

Richard Colvin is an Intelligence Officer; he likely oversaw and conducted a majority of all "interrogations" of detainees captured in Kandahar province.

He is now just covering his own ass before the Federal and International Courts catch up to him.

He is only trying to protect himself, the blood of innocent Afghans are on his hands.

Why did he not go public with this information back in 2006?

He is only trying to prevent himself from going to prison for a few decades.

Todrick of Chatsworth wrote:

He is only trying to protect himself, the blood of innocent Afghans are on his hands.

Why did he not go public with this information back in 2006?

He is only trying to prevent himself from going to prison for a few decades.

He went public in 2009 because he was before the Military Police Complaints Commission and had to respond to the questions they asked him. If you've kept up with the story, he has forensic evidence: (consisting) of numerous e-mails, letters and telegrams he sent to the PMO, Minister of Defense and Chief of Defense in 2006 and 2007.

Normally, elected officials determine policy and therefore are to be held legally, morally and politically accountable. A civil servant's, like Richard Colvin, job is to implement the policy of their political masters, and therefore (generally, theoretically) are not normally held accountable.

Only a small minority of civil servants are whistleblowers. Colvin follows this pattern. He acted entirely accordingly from 2006 to late 2009, pointing out what the government was doing was wrong and that the government would change its behaviour i.e., he worked from within.

To sum up, why would he go public when the government was protecting him?

He, like others, who appeared before the MPCC was threatened by the government that if they testified, their careers and personal reputations would be ruined. He could easily have used this as an excuse not to appear before the Commission.

If you think Harper, paranoid over Torturegate, instructed Colvin to be a fall guy and Colvin pulled a John Dean III by blowing Torturegate wide open with his testimony then, again, why hasn't his career (as threatened above) been destroyed?

Where's Taliban Jack when we need him?

The NDP needs more seats in Parliament so we can get Canada out of this mess.

UN envoy says it's 'time to talk' to the Taliban

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hvWEqwq3CrRvaQCmt21Mfo...

According to the Geneva Conventions, the onus to stop or prevent war crimes and human rights atrocities is on government and the military; the collective and the individual.

The "Agreement" between the Canadian military (signed by Hillier and continued, unmodified, by the Harper administration from 2005 to 2007) with its lack of safeguards and monitoring concerning the treatment of prisoners of war that set the conditions which made such abuse possible, is an example of (possible) government (collective) violation of the Conventions.

The case of Captain Robert Semrau, alleged to have murdered in cold blood an unarmed insurgent who had surrendered, is an example of a (possible) violation of the Conventions by an (in this case military) individual.

[url=http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17914]How Kucinich's Resolution to End the War Will Help Us End the War[/url]

Forcing bipartisan warmongerers to show their hand

Executing handcuffed Afghan Kids?

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff03042010.html

"Today's war in Afghanistan also has its My Lai massacres. There is still time for people of conscience to stand up in the midst of their imperial adventures that may now appropriately be called Obama's War in Afghanistan.

Plenty of men and women in uniform in Afghanistan knew that 9 Afghan children were captured and murdered at America's hands last December in Kunar. There are probably people who were involved in the planning or carrying out of this criminal operation who are sickened by what happened. But these people are so far, holding their tongues, whether out of fear or out of simply not knowing where to turn.

There are also plenty of reporters in Afghanistan and in Washington who could be investigating this story. They are not. Don't ask me why. Maybe ask their editors.

Flexible Afghanistan War Objectives:The Agony Grinds On

http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud03052010.html

Washington and its willing moutpieces in the media have for years been trying to sell us the preposterous war in Afghanistan. While they attempt to convince us that the war is predicated on a faultless military logic and moral wisdom, it remains in fact a tragic adventure with no decipherable objectives and involving several countries private contractors, and all sorts of firms seeking to make a quick buck.

The intellectual cowardice of some should not blind the majority to the fact that the war in AFghanistan is morally indefensible and militarily unwinnable."

US Redraws Afghan Command

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17938

"The US and its allies are working to create a new American-led military command in southern Afghanistan, setting the stage for a lerge scale offensive into the Taliban stronghold of Kandahar.."

US General Silent on Canada's Withdrawal

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/775290--u-s-gen...

"The Conservative government says it is committed to the planned withdrawal of all Canadian forces from Kandahar between July and December 2011. It is not clear what role Canadian diplomats, aid workers or corrections officials will play in the country without the security provided by soldiers but the government says it is committed to the Afghan people long past 2011.

'If forces are adjusted by any nation, adjustments are made by others. That's the essence of what a commander needs to do,' Petraeus said, nothing that he coped with withdrawing forces several times in Iraq.."

New Afghan Chief in Marjah has Criminal Record

http://topics.npr.org/article/00LceCM3mT6rE?q=World

"The man chosen to be the fresh face of good Afghan governance in a town just seized from the Taliban has a violent criminal record in Germany, but Western officials said Saturday they are not pushing to oust him.."

One Child Dies Every 2 Minutes in Afghanistan

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/developing-world-stories/2010/03/one-child-die...

"Children in Afghanistan are more likely to die before the age of 5 than children anywhere else in the world, according to Save the Children.. Meanwhile there has been virtually no improvement in the child mortality rate in the past 20 years...

Save the Children insists the true scale of the humanitarian crisis facing the country remains hidden because of the focus on the conflict.."

CF Soldiers' Sucides Hit Record High Last Year

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Soldiers+suicides+record+high+last+yea...

"There were 16 suicides by CF personnel in 2009, the highest annual number since tracking began in 1995. 'We have no numbers  on veterans. As soon as they come home and are discharged there's no tracking.."

Lance Corporal Joe Glenton Jailed for 9 Months

http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/1772/1/

"Joe Glenton was sentenced to 9 months imprisonment for refusing to return to Afghanistan.."

Elders of town just seized from Taliban give Afghan president an earful on corruption, NATO:

http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/03/07/karzai-gets-an-earful-in-town-seized-...

The Obama Killing Machine in Afghanistan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18001

"Let the numbers tell the story. The following presents a detailed summary and analysis of Afghan civilians killed directly - so called impact deaths - by US/NATO forces in Afghanistan during a single month, February 2010"

It's all about perception. Hell, we've got a war to sell:

Gareth Porter wrote:

The Washington Post reported Feb. 22 that the decision to launch the offensive against Marjah was intended largely to impress U.S. public opinion with the effectiveness of the U.S. military in Afghanistan by showing that it could achieve a "large and loud victory."

The false impression that Marjah was a significant city was an essential part of that message.

http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2010/03/08/fiction-of-marjah-as-city/

If they made a big deal out of little Marjah, just wait when they launch their offensive against Stalingrad - I mean - Kandahar City.

Can you say "Battle of the Little Big Horn" or "Dien Bien Phu"?

Here's his excuse:

Staff AP News wrote:

The top U.S. general in Afghanistan says the military campaign around the southern Afghan town of Marjah (MAR'-jah) could have been faster, but the cost in civilian casualties would have been too high.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal says the Marjah campaign could [have] been over in one night. Instead active military operations to rout the Taliban took about three weeks.

http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/03/08/mcchrystal-us-slowed-campaign-to-spar...

Why do I not believe him?

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

'We Don't Do Torture,' Says DND's New Ethics Guide

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/todays-paper/torture+says+ethics+guide...

"The Canadian army has produced an ethics guide to help equip soldiers to be 'ethical warriors' who will instinctively do the right thing.."

OK to invade them, occupy them, install puppets, steal their resources, shoot them, bomb them, poison them with DU etc etc, but no  rough stuff or name-calling! 'Ethical warriors' for US Imperialism...yeah right.

I know you were just providing commentary but on a serious note I don't think teaching ethics is ever time wasted in the military or any sort of life and death job.

Perhaps if people didn't LOLZ at their ethics training Afghan prisoners would have stopped being handed over to the local police much sooner.  Or the officers it was reported to would have acted sooner not taking "don't worry about it" or whatever they were told for an answer.  Ethics doesn't extend to only war zones but call outs back in Canada AND every day life at work and home. Military and all other jobs. 

I think it's more for public perception.  Like I said time spent debating ethics is never wasted but the timing seems too cheesy.  Soldiers in the military begin learning ethics [and first aid] before they ever pick up a firearm or even really before they are taught how to march. What it needs is reprecussions for those who behave unethically.

margot66 wrote:

It's also a way to blame the soldiers, rather than a system rigged for plausible denial.

Precisely. You want to talk about ethics? Start with the Conservative government.

This Torturegate mess started when former Gen. Rick Hillier signed the prisoner transfer agreement in late 2005 with the Karzai government that lacked monitoring and other safeguards. It was further compounded when the Harper administration took office in early 2006 and allowed the agreement to stay in place until either 2007 or, possibly, to this day (it's unclear whether stated Con reforms were an actual change or renegotiation of the original agreement).

When I was in the Army, there used to be bullet[ins] posted on the classroom walls that had quotes from the Geneva Conventions. Once a year, we used to have lessons on the Geneva Conventions. By 2005, I noticed those bullets had been taken down and the lessons on the Conventions had been quietly 'forgotten'.

Although ethics is a good start, it's more than that. It's a case of ethics, morality and the law.

Frmrsldr wrote:

 

Although ethics is a good start, it's more than that. It's a case of ethics, morality and the law.

If they didn't all match neatly and you had to choose one over the other which would you pic?