UA: Liberal Left Style

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Cookstar
UA: Liberal Left Style

As Liberals and those of the larger activist block I call "Progressives" (those individuals who are not only Liberals but NDPers,Greens and anyone who doesn't like Stephen Harper) have just witnessed a do-nothing budget which will likely lead to a federal election this fall, Progressive activists should take a few moments to think about 2 anniversaries happening this year that could help shape the direction they would like to see the country move towards before and after the next federal election.

The first is the 30th anniversary of the Liberal party's win of 74 of 75 seats in Quebec in the 1980 federal election, the last time the Liberals have won a majority of seats federally in La Belle province. It is clear from current polling numbers as well as past actual election voting numbers that the Liberal party has failed to renew itself since the Trudeau years in the eyes of the public and as such are unable to fulfill their role as the Official Opposition of providing a government in waiting. John Turner tried from 1984-1990 to bring renewal to the party only to be met with open rebellion while Jean Chretien(Yesterdays Man) 1990-2003 had the good luck of an implosion by the Campbell Tories and the strong showing of the upstart Reform party in Ontario to allow him to form 3 consecutive majority governments. It was not Liberals who set the political agenda during the 1990's under Chretien rather a strong opposition Reform on such issues as Fiscal reform(Balanced budgets,MP pension reform) or constitutional reform(Clarity act). Chretien failed during his time as leader to bring renewal to the party. With the disappearance of the Reform party 10 years ago the Liberal party found itself adrift which once again led to internal division. With the Election win of former Reformer turned Tory of stephen Harper and his Conservative party in 2006 the Liberals continue to struggle over renewing themselves in opposition. The Quebec polling numbers show that the Liberals are unable to fulfill their role as the Official Opposition on their own.

The 2nd anniversary so-called Progressive activists need to look at and learn from is the previous mentioned demise of the Reform party in March 2000 and the process that lead to it. The United Alternative process was launched in 1998 by then Leader of the Official Opposition Preston Manning to fulfill his role to provide a government in waiting to the Chretien Liberals. There were many options looked at by the United Alternative process besides creation of a new party aka the Canadian Alliance, they included uniting behind an existing party(Reform or PC's) merging existing parties(Reform and PC's) and the Local Unity option on Riding based actions to recruit and select common candidates (The PC's wanted no part of the UA process which basically limited the options).

I believe Progressive activists need their own United Alternative process(perhaps they can call it a Progressive alternative) to look at the options which could lead to a "Progressive Government" after the next election. While I believe there is no willingness between the current party leaders(Liberal,NDP,Greens) for the creation of a new party or merging of existing parties, I believe a Progressive alternative process which leads to cooperation at the local Riding level, along with a common platform which unites Progressives from the different parties as well as providing a Blueprint to voters as to what a Progressive government would like is achievable( Harper plans to make a Progressive government an issue next election whether the Liberal leadership likes it or not). Local Unity options between Progressives needs to happen in at least 20 ridings across Canada in order to be effective and while there is no guarantee such cooperation at the local level will be successful, the question Progressive activists need to ask "Is doing the Status-quo which will likely lead to a Harper majority government an option Progressive activists willing to settle for?" Ridings where local cooperation,either through weaker parties not fielding candidates or holding joint nomination meetings together to field a single Progressive candidate include Tory held ridings like Saskatoon-Rosetown-Biggar where NDPer Nettie Wiebe lost by 262 votes in the last election while both Liberals and Greens took only 4% of the popular vote each. Is it worth the risk by Progressive activists in both the Liberals and Greens to say, at least for the next election that they will not field a candidate in Saskatoon-Rosetown-Biggar in order that a Progressive leaning NDPer wins the riding rather then a Harper Tory? Surrey North is another riding where Tory Dona Cadman won by 1100 votes over the NDP while the combined Liberal/Green vote was 20% in the last election. Could cooperation by Progressive activists in this riding help to advance a Progressive agenda? There are also a number of Liberal held ridings across Canada which were won by slim margins over the Tories last election, ridings like Vancouver South or the Brampton ridings, these ridings will be targeted by Harper next election in order for him to obtain his majority.

What will Progressive activists do about it? Even if the actions of Progressive activists leads to another Harper minority government after the election, the Progressive opposition could demand Harper be replaced as PM by someone more sympathic to the Progressive agenda, someone like Jean Charest or Jim Prentice perhaps. Would this not be considered a victory for Progressive activists?

Are there risks to the opposition parties working together on the goal of achieving a Progressive government after the next election? Yes of course in fact several, Political parties receive federal funding of 1.95$ for every vote received based on Election results. By not fielding candidates in every riding it cost Real dollars for years to the political parties. Helping the competition could also have long-term ramifications on the political landscape, In my riding of Bruce-Grey-OS the Greens came a strong 2nd last election against a Tory MP who seems more concerned about fighting against his local school board then fulfilling his duties as MP, if Local Progressive activists in the Liberals/NDP parties decide not to field candidates and the Greens win the riding??

What happens next election?? The bigger the risk the bigger the reward or LOSS, the Liberal party needs to take some big risks to cause not only Party renewal but also a political realignment otherwise the Conservatives may soon become in the 21st century what the Liberals were in the 20th century. Canada's Natural governing party.

Issues Pages: 
Fidel

I think the Liberal Party needs convincing that they need to move to the left. And the best way to help them do that is for more Liberal Party supporters to vote NDP. Because right now there isn't a ray of sunshine between the Tories and Liberals. They are indistinguishable as far as I can tell. If we want to piss off the Tories, make them answerable to the effective opposition NDP by making the NDP the official opposition party through the ballot box. Tory MPs would then hate showing up for work ten times as much as they do now.

NorthReport

Actually it is more the shift from the Liberals to the NDP, rather than the Cons increasing their strength, that has changed since the 2000 general election

Party / 2000 election / 2004 election / 2006 election / 2008 election / Change

Cons / 38% / 30% / 36% / 38% / No change

NDP / 09% / 16% / 18% / 18% / Up 100%

Libs / 41% / 37% / 30% / 26% / Down 37%

Bloc / 11% / 12% / 11% / 10% / Down 10%

Why do I get the feeling this is just another Liberal ploy.

And Fidel is correct.

It is the NDP that has the overall momentum since the 2000,  so the voters that are concerned about the Cons, need to shift in even larger numbers to the NDP, in the next election that we will be having in 2011 or 2012. 

NorthReport

Anyway there is not going to be any joining of forces, and most everyone knows it. It's quite clear that the NDP is the enemy for the Liberals. And that is my argument with the people who always want to demonize Harper and the Cons. Politically it's a big mistake.

 

Liberal election strategy looks back to the '90s

It's harder to see what the Liberals will do because their leader prefers to hibernate in the summer rather than the winter. To get an idea of their likely plans, I resorted to my notes on his chief of staff, Peter Donolo. In an interview with The Canadian Press on July 19 last year, Donolo said Ignatieff should follow the path taken by Harper and former Liberal leader Jean Chrétien when they were in opposition: "They ought to put Ignatieff on a bus through every corner of Ontario and let him off after Labour Day." You can count on that this summer.

Their second likely step is to target the NDP vote. In an interview with the Winnipeg Free Press last June, Donolo said the three consecutive Liberal majorities in 1993, 1997 and 2000 were rooted strongly in the problems of the NDP and not just the problems of the right: "There's been a lot of focus on the fact that the right was divided ... and that's why the Liberals won majorities. There's a bit of truth to that but an equally valid and largely ignored fact is that the Liberals won also because they depressed the NDP vote - 7.5 per cent in 1993, 11 per cent in 1997 and 8.5 per cent in 2000. That's a big difference from the NDP polling at 18 or 19 per cent."

Donolo knows that in order to get the NDP vote, the Liberals have to polarize the electorate by demonizing the right, portraying the Liberal party as the only barrier against the "right-wing ideologues." That's why they talk about Afghanistan and not the economy, and about Rahim Jaffer and not about their plan to eliminate the deficit and create jobs. When the right is demonized, it's always the NDP that pays the price. In Ontario, at the time of the battle against Mike Harris, it was the NDP that lost party status in the Legislature.

But Donolo is wrong if he believes he can recreate the 1990s political environment. Liberals should know that Ignatieff is not Chrétien, Harper is not Preston Manning, Jack Layton is not Alexa McDonough and Donolo is no John Rae or Jean Pelletier, the masterminds behind Chrétien's political success.

 

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/779238--persichilli-liberal-elect...

 

 

ottawaobserver

This time it's a Green ploy to try and dress up a pitch for "progressive unity" to get the other parties to back off running in Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound.  Sorry, but they STILL wouldn't win that seat.

remind remind's picture

Liberals are so far from being progressive, as to be not in the same city, let alone ball park.

 

and personally, I get real tired of people, usually Ontarians, and Liberals, promoting strategic voting nonsense

Tommy_Paine

 

There. Are. No. Progressives. In. The. Liberal. Party. Period.

 

 

NorthReport

Thanks OO

In the next election probably the worst case scenario would be for Canada to get a majority government. With the NDP having an excellent environmental platform, the second worst case scenario would be for the Greens to elect an MP.

 

And T_P. 

 I'm beginning to wonder if there are any in the Green Party as well. 

Tommy_Paine

 

You know what they say: Tories with composters.   When it comes to the environment, recycling and alternative energy policy and consumer education only goes so far.  If things are as bad as we think they are, then people who want environmental action must also be four square for government getting heavily involved with regulating industry.    

 

I don't hear the Greens moving aggresively on that score.  I suppose because it might endanger their stock portfolios.

 

 

NorthReport

Precisely my dear Watson! Wink

George Victor

remind wrote:

Liberals are so far from being progressive, as to be not in the same city, let alone ball park.

 

and personally, I get real tired of people, usually Ontarians, and Liberals, promoting strategic voting nonsense

Ontarians???   Surprised  Well, I never!!!

duncan cameron

I like North Reports table. What happens when the Greens are inserted?

I note the combined Cons-Lib total goes down from 69 percent to 64. Recent polling shows vote switching between the two, with the total staying around 65. Barring the collapse of one or the other, neither can win a majority. That is the point Cookstar is making about the Liberals.

Since I prefer a Liberal minority to a Conservative minority what does that imply if not uniting to defeat sitting Cons ? Because the opposition parties plus the greens will never unite, it must happen through the net roots organizing behind one candidate in every Con riding. Backing Nettie would be a good place to start.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

remind, remind, remind, how many times do I have to tell you, they get all sniffy if you call them Ontarians, but if you refer to them as Central Canadian Overlords it either goes over their heads, or they think you are trying to be funny....

Todrick of Chat...

ottawaobserver wrote:

This time it's a Green ploy to try and dress up a pitch for "progressive unity" to get the other parties to back off running in Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound.  Sorry, but they STILL wouldn't win that seat.

 

This is a solid Tory riding now, it will be hard for any party to dislodge Larry Miller and the conservatives from this riding.

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

It's quite clear that the NDP is the enemy for the Liberals. And that is my argument with the people who always want to demonize Harper and the Cons. Politically it's a big mistake.

That argument is the same one spun by Harper and the NeoCons.

 

 

ottawaobserver

Duncan, here's a reinterpretation of North Report's table, but showing the parties' vote as a percent of eligible voters, alongside the non-voters:

Party || 1988 | 1993 | 1997 | 2000 | 2004 | 2006 | 2008 //\\ since 1988 | since 2000

Lib__ || 23.8 | 28.4 | 25.4 | 24.7 | 22.2 | 19.4 | 15.3 //\\ -8.5 | -9.4
NDP_ || 15.2 | 4.7 | 7.3 | 5.1 | 9.5 | 11.2 | 10.6 //\\ -4.6 | +5.5
Grn__ || 0.3 | 0.2 | 0.3 | 0.5 | 2.6 | 2.9 | 3.9 //\\ +3.7 | +3.4
BQ__ || ---- | 9.3 | 7 | 6.5 | 7.5 | 6.7 | 5.8 //\\ +5.8 | -0.7
Cons || ---- | ---- | ---- | ---- | 17.9 | 23.3 | 22 //\\ -11.7 | -0.8 (as against combined CA_Rf + PC)
CA_Rf || 1.6 | 12.8 | 12.8 | 15.4 | ---- | ---- | ---- //\\
PC___ || 32.1 | 11 | 12.4 | 7.4 | 0 | 0.1 | 0 //\\ -32.1 | -7.4
Ind__ || 0.3 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.3 | 0.3 | 0.4 | 0.4 //\\ +0.1 | +0.1
Oth__ || 1.4 | 1.8 | 0.5 | 0.6 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.2 //\\ -1.2 | -0.4
NV___ || 24.7 | 30.4 | 33 | 38.8 | 39.1 | 35.3 | 41.2 //\\ 16.5 | 2.4

If, as I fear, we're going to embark on round 104 of the why don't we get the so-called progressives together, can we at least use the proper data, Duncan.  It's not correct to look at voter shifts by calculating changes to the vote-share, since it excludes non-voters and the fact that one party's voters may be more likely to stay home than another's in a given election.

Also, these numbers suffer from being aggregated nationally, and missing regional differences.  As we should all know, the Conservatives won seats in BC last time because Liberals stayed home OR SWITCHED TO THE CONSERVATIVES (e.g., Vancouver Island North, Kamloops, and the Pitt Meadows-Maple Ridge seat to name just 3).  The Liberals aren't "progressive" voters in most places, no matter what Ontarians who have retired to BC may believe based on what they find in Victoria.

If you can get the Liberals to stop campaigning against Nettie Wiebe in Saskatoon, good luck to you.  Last time they sent in Bob Rae on E-7 or something to argue that voting Liberal was the best way to stop the Conservatives.  Talk about short-sighted.

NorthReport

It's the Liberals who have constantly been trying to demonize Harper and the Cons.

Now that Harper has been prime minister for awhile, and our planet is still revolving abound the sun, surprise, surprise, the Liberals will have to come up with another playbook. Harper is not Hitler and the Cons are not Nazis.  I don't support their policies though. 

welder welder's picture

Since the Trudeau era,the Liberal party has been content to basically exist to be in power.Now that their phony majorities are over they have to compete in the marketplace of ideas.So far,I would say the results ain't so good!

Frankly,Mr.Ignatieff sounds more like a slightly softer version of Mr.Harper,but with a smile and a snotty intellectual tone.I'm not a fan of Mr.Layton,but I would prefer a situation where we get a true right/left clash of ideas without the,now moribund,Liberal Party softening the edges on every issue....

George Victor

NorthReport wrote:

It's the Liberals who have constantly been trying to demonize Harper and the Cons.

Now that Harper has been prime minister for awhile, and our planet is still revolving abound the sun, surprise, surprise, the Liberals will have to come up with another playbook. Harper is not Hitler and the Cons are not Nazis.  I don't support their policies though. 

Hell, all the Cons are guilty of now is overlooking the suffering of the unemployed, the complete absence of ideas (outside of lower taxes) for an industrial future for Canada, and the absence of a plan of action to fight deterioration of our biosphere as climate change threatens to end civilization as we know it. Oh, and a tendency to replace rationality with religion.

Who the hell could not vote for them?

NorthReport

Kinda reminds me of the party that was in power before them as well George.

I'm with you welder.

Skinny Dipper

If the Liberals, NDP, and Greens were to unite into one super party, their voters would not automatically go to this new progressive party.  I can picture many of the voters going to the Conservatives or staying home.

Be careful about branding the Liberal Party as a progressive left-wing party.  Liberal supporters might see themselves as progressive.  However, they may see themselves as centrist-progressives.  Some people might see Michael Ignatieff as a right winger.  If that is the case, then Harper could make a good leader of a new progressive party.Tongue out

George Victor

If you believe that Liberal folks are ready to commit their old age security and market savings to the benevolence of social democratic economics, you don't understand the thinking of some 80 per cent of Canadians. Social democratics can balance provincial budgets beautifully.  The trust ends there.

As for the Lib/Con difference, check out two institutions:  jails and churches....adding schools.  And Dion in the wings. 

George Victor

You demonstrate that "progressive" is becoming progressively meaningless.

Cookstar

The Leader of the Opposition has a duty to provide a government in waiting should he or she be asked to by the GG. The article which I wrote(main stream media would not print it) looks at the example of a previous Opposition leader(Manning). Ignatieff in my opinion has to do something DIFFERENT in his role as Leader of the Opposition in order to form government. Is allowing members from each of the respective parties(Liberal/NDP/Greens) as well as independent individuals at the riding level to talk a big deal? If the opposition grassroots in Saskatoon-Rosetown-Biggar thinks cooperation is a good idea why should someone from Ottawa tell them otherwise? Does it not make more sense for the grassroots to define a Progressive government rather then the party elite(Ignatieff/Layton/MAY) or for that matter Harper?

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

I can't believe threads like this still exist.

Ignatieff ruled out co-operation when he scuttled the coalition and voted for the last Tory budget.

We had the chance to get rid of Harper and Iggy said no. 

Why should members of other opposition parties even try to team up with the Liberals anymore?

NorthReport

Ditto.

Who would want to ally with these Liberal clowns? 

Tories pounce as 'Ignatieff prorogues himself'

Easy target. After withstanding the slings and arrows of the opposition over their decision to prorogue Parliament, Stephen Harper's Conservatives are turning the tables on Michael Ignatieff's Liberals.

 

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/tories-pounce-as-ignati...

 

"After Eight Days, Ignatieff Prorogues Himself...," is the headline of an internal memo sent by Tory party officials in which they note the Liberal Leader was a no-show in the House of Commons Monday.

"Ignatieff is nowhere to be found," says the cheeky memo, which is sent to Conservative officials, MPs and supporters.

Bolstering their case is that Mr. Ignatieff missed his caucus's opposition day - a designated day on which the Liberals are allowed to debate a subject of their own choice.

Yesterday, they opted to tackle the wastefulness of taxpayer-funded mailings, called ten per centers. They argued these mass-mailing flyers are overly partisan and wasteful; they want them cut.

"Well, well, well," the Tory memo says. "Look who's not bothering to show up in Parliament for work today after only eight days of parliamentary sittings. That's right - it's Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff."

Parliament returned only last Wednesday after being prorogued for six weeks. This week was a scheduled break week for parliamentarians but the government cancelled the holiday, wanting to work through it after the criticism it took for the forced shut-down.

"After complaining for weeks about the recent routine prorogation of Parliament and insisting that Members of Parliament could only be 'working' if they were in Ottawa, Ignatieff is nowhere to be found."

KenS

You can talk all you want about the grsssroots or the netroots of a couple riding associations in a race deciding to not field a candidate- but it is just not going to happen.

Some of the Green EDAs are non-existant or small enough perhaps that they might chooae to not nominate- but I doubt even that would happen. And in the unlikely event that did happen, the party does not need an EDA to have a candidate.,and already do not in many cases, if not a majority. And even without being in the GPC I can tell you for certain that a proposal to not run candidates in 5 ridings, let alone the proportinal reciprocation requirent of 255, would never get majority approval. 

And while there might be individual activists in no hope Liberal or NDP ridings who would like this arrangement, the chances of getting a whole EDA to it are very slim. There would be just too many people so opposed that the rest would not try to roll over them even in the unlikley event the numbers were there. I would just be one among others they have no right to do this to our organization. Period.

There is this comforting notion out there that its only 'the parties,' or their elites,  who would oppose these ideas. Dead wrong.

KenS

In case any one is wondering....

Opposing these ideas that just won't die is not for fear they can get traction and will be tried.

They aren't going to get traction. But they leave a residue. And the Liberals exploit that. Like Bob Rae visiting Saskatoon despite the NDP being in close contention and the Liberals being in the no hope category. Like Buzz Hargrove making as many appearances as possible where the Liberals were in contention with a NDP incumbent [or a Liberal MP defending against an NDP challenger- even if its his own aide Peggy Nash]. And on and on.

This doesn't seem to be working much any more. But there is a reason the Liberals keep trying.

kropotkin1951

The answer is not bigger tents but smaller ones.  the only solution is proportional rep.  Any other change is merely window dressing.  Our politics have far too many nuances to put them in two boxes and pretend that we are getting at the will of the majority.  Let people vote for parties that they support and then let the big tent get formed after the election like in real democracies not phony FPTP facades.  I will never vote for a party dominated by the Liberals and they will never enter into a deal where they are not in absolute control.  

Diversity is the key to survival of any system IMO and bigger tents limit the diversity of opinions and options that get debated in parliament.

Michelle

Polunatic, check your e-mail!

Polunatic2

I agree K1951 that PR and more parties are  part of the solution. What's the strategy though? How do we get there when we hear things like this from Dippers who are honest enough to put their underlying concerns on the table. (Yes, I realize the Libs are the biggest impediment to reform right now but...)

Quote:
 the second worst case scenario would be for the Greens to elect an MP.

Nearly a million voters selected the Greens last time and they have absolutely no representation. All democratic minded people should be concerned about that whether you like the GP or not. 

kropotkin1951

I have no problem with the Greens having their own party and would welcome them in any POST election coalition government that wanted to tackle climate change and other pressing environmental issues.  I think that the NDP needs to press the Liberals and other parties in the House to get PR.  It must be the focus or we will never have effective federal change.  Yes I know that PR will not help the Bloc but I say make them vote against it in the House then.  Make the Liberals and Cons vote against it and then run on it as one of the NDP's main planks.  

KenS

Polunatic2 wrote:

I agree K1951 that PR and more parties are  part of the solution. What's the strategy though? How do we get there when we hear things like this from Dippers who are honest enough to put their underlying concerns on the table.

I don't get it. You need to spell out what you mean and its basis- that it it is more than a feeling you have.

Its certainly not clear what that quote that folows has to do with it. Even if it was about PR, and not about getting a Green MP given our current system.... who cares what a single or few Dippers think?

George Victor

"A few dippers" might be concerned that a vast majority of the voting electorate are still concerned about the big economic picture and would like clearly spelled-out  just how a democratic socialist take on the market and potential market future will bring them a pension in their tottery old age.  The old question of  economic competency.  Oh, I know, such things are discussed exhaustingly, hereabouts, but it never hurts to be reminded.... 

Scott Piatkowski Scott Piatkowski's picture

Lou Arab wrote:

I can't believe threads like this still exist.

Ignatieff ruled out co-operation when he scuttled the coalition and voted for the last Tory budget.

We had the chance to get rid of Harper and Iggy said no. 

Why should members of other opposition parties even try to team up with the Liberals anymore?

I was going to post to this thread, but Lou already said what I wanted to say.

NorthReport

The NDP supports withdrawing our troops from Afghanistan.

The NDP supports PR.

The progressive NDP's political enemies are the right-wing Cons, the right-wing Libs, and the right-wing Grns across Canada.

What's not to understand here?

declareIndependance declareIndependance's picture

To say that there are no progressives in any of the other parties, asides from the NDP, does a real disservice to the vibrancy of Canadian political discourse.  My MP used to be Glen Pearson before I moved into a Con riding and he serves on the the Status of Women committee along with Irene Matthessyn (an NDP MP) and they have voted identically in committee meetings. 

Furthermore, as an independant and unaffiliated environmentalist, I must say that having done my own research I would have to say that a carbon tax or carbon fee-and-dividend is a far more effective means of reducing GHG emissions than cap and trade.  Even David Suzuki, historically aligned with the NDP, has said that he endorses and supports a carbon tax as a reasonable means to reduce GHG emissions.  In fact all of the parties, including the "social democratic" NDP and the Greens use market-approaches or fixes to the climate crisis.  I'm all for regulatory reform of polluting industry, but the fact is a carbon tax (when applied in the right way) places a price on carbon before it is even emitted, which cap and trade doesn't do.

And furthermore, Tom Mulcair has said he's open to bulk water exports and for compensations for Quebec for their water.  He also didn't sign, along with about 17 NDP members of parliament, a letter to President Obama urging him to not import tarsands oil.  The NDP is not the fix.  None of the parties are.  The change comes from us.  It is time to end the bitter acrimony between hardline partisans and engage in a spirit of true cooperation if we are to solve the issues of this century.  And yes, that even means moderate, traditional tories should be included in the fold.

p.s.  Factionalism exists in all the parties.  So to quantify the Greens as exclusively right-wing is naive, as it is to qualify all NDPers as left-wing.

KenS

By the way- the drift of this thread over the last several posts is an apt illustration of what I said in post #27:

Non-Liberals sincerely propose these ideads for the opposition parties agreeing to not run candidates to increase chances one opposition party will win. They are impervious to arguments it wont work and is at least equally likely to backfire. At any rate, there is no traction to the thing.

Liberals step in to pick up on the sentiment and remind people that you are better off voting for Liberals. Its slightly more subtle than that on this board. But what you see here is a reflection of the straight up Liberals are better message imparted to the general public... completey irregardless of whether more Liberal votes in particular ridings will actually help the Conservatives.

NorthReport

The next coalition could well be be the right-wing Liberals with the right-wing Conservatives.

 

Coalition a dirty word

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/coalition-a-dirty-wo...

kropotkin1951

David Suzuki has become a BC Liberal sycophant. Rah rah carbon tax but no talk about shale oil or pipelines and oil tankers in Hecate Straight.  

Unfortunately many of the environmental NGO's have succumbed to the idea that the money they get to focus on issues big business agrees with is a good thing not a betrayal of their independence.

KenS

The question is not whether there are progressives IN the Liberal Party.

We've been around and around on the alleged superiority of the Dion plan. [Short form: it isn't a general discussion about cafbon tax versus cap and trade. Its about specific pakcages on the table.] Besides- the question is whats on the table now. Which is? If you want to just hand the Liberals a mandate and trust them to 'do something' thats your privelege, but the argument isnt going to go far here.

On the other hand now, thats a new one about Martin having been on track to overcome the right wing heritage of the Chretienites. Thats worth something for entertainment value.

St. Paul's Prog...

The Liberals are not a party of the left.  In the 1960s and 1970s you could argue they were progressive but that is not the case today.  They will however talk left to take votes from the NDP and Greens.  If they go too far though, blue Libs will bolt (like they did with Dion - who was progressive for a Liberal - and who the party likes to forget in their seeking of centre-right votes under Ignatieff).

George Victor

Dion confronted ALL Canadians with the horrific idea that we needed to get serious about confronting the prospect of an environmental armageddon. Some young Liberals weren't thinking "electorate" when they put him forward. "Progressive" is becoming a very, very difficult status for any political elements to achieve because of the social implications in proposing the policies necessary to achieve a sustainable state of production and consumption.

Or is being "progressive" also achieved with that difficult status only  "in mind" for "down the road"?

Stuart_Parker

The reality is that there are no left-wing parties in Canada of any size or influence, with the possible exception of Quebec Solidaire. 

But there are parties in which leftists exercise varying degrees of influence. Depending on one's tactics, talents and conditions in one's local riding, it may seem rational for left-wing people to become involved in the Bloc, NDP, Greens or Liberals. In each of these parties, there are leftists in the caucus or in leadership positions. I would suggest that leftists have the biggest say in the Bloc, second-biggest in the NDP, etc.

But there is a goal of which none of us should lose sight: electing a majority of leftists to parliament. We are not going to achieve this by pretending the NDP is something it has long since ceased to be. We can only achieve it by looking rationally at the actual situation.

Now that I've already been bounced from the party for saying such things, just let me add that I don't see NDP governments cutting welfare as somehow better or more virtuous than Liberal or Conservative governments doing so; shooting native protesters isn't transformed from a sin to a virtue because it is done under the aegis of the New Democratic Party.

The fact is that the battle to have an actual leftist party in English Canada has already been lost. So why not have a big-tent party where the leftist candidates we back in nomination battles have a better chance of winning their seat in the ensuing general election. Canada has already become a state where people must choose between the Democrats and the Republicans. So we might as well make sure that the Democrats are organized efficiently and not split into three lame, embarrassing ineffectual parties.

remind remind's picture

Thank God sanity prevailed in the NDP head offices.....

NorthReport

Laughing

KenS

Stuart_Parker wrote:

Now that I've already been bounced from the party for saying such things, just let me add that I don't see NDP governments cutting welfare as somehow better or more virtuous than Liberal or Conservative governments doing so; shooting native protesters isn't transformed from a sin to a virtue because it is done under the aegis of the New Democratic Party.

You werent bounced from being a candidate for the substance of what you said. You were bounced for the loose lips of putting it as "the NDP shot protestors" lest it have to be worn by the rest of the party. Clearly you and others think what you actually said is the same thing as if it was put as a substantive position. Since we've been around this before we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Which is fine. But I'm going to contest your characterisation of why you were bounced.

[Not to mention that you weren't bounced from the party. Understandable if being bounced as a candidate makes you feel like you don't belong. But you still werent bounced from the party.]