I have been a member of the New Demorcratic Party for over 30 years. Cheri DiNovo is my MPP. I have worked on all her campaigns and will continue to do so. She is a stellar politician, utterly without pretense who has always stood up for the poor and marginalized in our society. We need more like her. What sometimes perturbs me about the left is the minute someone strays from the rigid party line they are cast as a pariah and unfit to govern. Ms. DiNovo was not giving Israel carte blanche to carry on as they are. She was simply trying to tone down inflammatory rhetoric and search for a peaceful solution. I support her efforts and those who work together in the Middle East for a peaceful and just solution.
I Support Cheri DiNovo
Wed, 2010-03-17 14:45
#1
I Support Cheri DiNovo
Wed, 2010-03-17 14:51
#2
This could give a whole new meaning to the phrase Board wars. I'm getting the popcorn.
Wed, 2010-03-17 14:56
#3
Hahahaha. Pulling up a seat now. Who has a score card handy?
Wed, 2010-03-17 14:59
#4
Lou Arab
I'm closing this. There is already an open thread on the topic. Please post there until it's full.
EDITED TO ADD: Now Open for Business.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:20
#5
Quoted from Stargazer in the previous thread.
remind, what you are getting here is justified outrage. Cheri seems to have the MSM and the powerful Tarek Fatah on her side.
She is NOT A VICTIM.
This seems to be unnesscessarily strong. While we have yet to see any evidence of her being harassed there is also no reason for us to believe that this hasn't happened. I am disturbed by her apparently using this harassment as a platform to silence criticism against her. However, at least as far as I've seen, any articles written referencing the facebook incident have not been courted by her. To my knowledge there have been no public statements made by her or made on her explicit behalf. While I am disappointed by her conduct and inclined to view it in a rather cynical manner, it does seem sensible to refrain from making any strong judgements until a public statement is made.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:25
#6
What sometimes perturbs me about the left is the minute someone strays from the rigid party line they are cast as a pariah and unfit to govern.
What sometimes perturbs me about the sorry excuse for a left we have in Parliament is that the minute someone strays from the bounds of acceptable discourse as defined by Peter Shurman, they are cast as hatemongers and unfit to even speak.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:34
#7
While I am disappointed by her conduct and inclined to view it in a rather cynical manner, it does seem sensible to refrain from making any strong judgements until a public statement is made.
And if no public statement is ever made? Then we're left with the innuendo and frenzy-mongering of the MSM against the left and against supporters of the Palestinian cause, and the story about "death threats" etc. passes into the realm of commonly accepted history.
Willingly or not, this individual's actions (speech - vote - censorship of criticism - self-portrayal as victim of the anti-apartheid crazies) situates itself squarely within the Harperite campaign, which poses grave dangers to the progressive movements in this country. That's why her friends and supporters have a responsibility to encourage her to speak out and clarify the situation, as well as to retract her support for Shurman's draconian motion.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:46
#8
Unionist, I should just wait until you post and add "ditto".
p-sto - I completely understand what you are saying and to a point I agree. The thing is, it seemed to me that she used the "death threats" as a means to stifle any and all debate. In all honesty, were she to produce this information to the police, or make it public somehow, then people like myself will be more than willing to accept that and condemn those who sent the threats. Until then all we have is her facebook breakdown. Nothing else.
Why I say she is not a victim is because she willingly walked into the whole freedom of speech thing and came down on the side of oppressors. How can there be any headway made in Israel when we cannot even speak about it here without being called antisemitic - which is the side Cheri chose to align herself with.
If you're read enough of her new idol, Tarek Fatah, you'll also see that she now sides with a pro-American anti-Muslim man. I subscribe to his news, and most of it is pretty damned hateful.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:51
#9
Totally agree p-sto.
Thu, 2010-03-18 11:55
#10
Back to the article that Michelle posted in the previous thread at #47
Di Novo, who is out of the country this week, did not respond to an e-mail requesting comment
Who knows perhaps it's just business, it could just as easily be her taking some time to recover from a breakdown. Why demand an answer now when an answer next week will do just as well. At the moment I'm most offended by journalists who have taken it upon themselves to use this incident to further an agenda with no evidence that DiNovo would want it portrayed as it is.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:04
#11
Israeli Apartheid and the Nakba
[Link deleted]
"There can be absolutely no doubt that Israel has created an inhuman, illegal and wholly disgraceful Apartheid state, and the international community will never be able to excuse itself if it takes no action against this blatant, ongoing and in-plain-sight crime against humanity.
Please send the link to this video to your elected representative and make sure he or she does something about it.."
[Moderator's note: I've deleted the link. NDPP, don't link to anti-semitic sites]
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:10
#12
"If you're read enough of her new idol, Tarek Fatah, you'll also see that she now sides with a pro-American anti-Muslim man. I subscribe to his news, and most of it is pretty damned hateful."
Fatah IS Muslim. or maybe you think that in addition to "self-hating Jews", there are also "self-hating Muslims".
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:10
#13
To me, the claim about threats, or at least harassment at home, is entirely believable, btw. Anyone who has any kind of public profile at all, especially on a controversial issue, will get weird messages from ... somewhere out there. I've had a couple of cyberstalkers over the years, and yes, it's upsetting because you don't know what they intend or how seriously to take the irrational hostility. You just sit there thinking, "Wow, somebody really does hate me." And then you don't know what to do.
I think I would call police about a death threat, but mostly I think that people try to believe that they're dealing with mere nuisance. Nuisance is a nuisance, and harassment at home is definitely beyond what anyone should have to put up with. But a lot of people do. It kinda comes with the territory, unfortunately.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:14
#14
Everybody keeps bringing up the police. She's made no public statement since the incident. Would the police be allowed to disclose anything to the public without her permission?
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:15
#15
NDPP, much as I sincerely appreciate all the material you post on important subjects, you do us no favours by linking to Holocaust-deniers and anti-semites like Gilad Atzmon and Anthony Lawson. I'm sure you don't want to prove that the Harpers and Kenneys and Shurmans and Dimants and Farbers of this world are correct, so kindly get that toxic crap out of here. Thanks.
ETA: And yes, indeedy, Stockholm, Gilad Atzmon is Jewish and anti-semitic, just as Tarek Fatah is Muslim and Islamophobic. The world is full of passing strange things!
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:16
#16
p-sto, I meant to suggest that I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't called the police, but you're right: it's none of our business until something can be proved.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:19
#17
p-sto, I meant to suggest that I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't called the police, but you're right: it's none of our business until something can be proved.
It would truly have been none of our business if she hadn't disclosed it in front of a few thousand people on Facebook. Why did she do that? And once she does it, privacy is hard to plead.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:20
#18
Not sure of the value of giving completely uncritical, carte blanche support to any politician or party. And not sure of the value of completely writing off politicians for some indiscretion or other. Is there no middle ground? Nobody's perfect. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree on issues - even burning hot issues - because other burning hot issues of perhaps even greater importance may arise where we require broad unity - and that can cut across the political spectrum.
Bob Rae could do no wrong and some people vilified, demonized and blamed his critics for the rise of neo-Conservatism in Ontario. "Don't blame me, I voted NDP" was the rallying cry as they flailed around looking for people to blame for their disastrous 1995 wipe-out. Until Rae left and joined the Liberals.
In Cuba, they don't build statues of people until they've passed on to the next world (well they wouldn't say it that way).
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:21
#19
Sorry to have missed your point skdadl, it does make sense. Thanks for clarifying.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:23
#20
That pretty much constitues a public statement (her facebook posting I mean).
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:28
#21
It would truly have been none of our business if she hadn't disclosed it in front of a few thousand people on Facebook. Why did she do that? And once she does it, privacy is hard to plead.
She can has teh upset? I often do, although I haven't often done it online (knock on wood). If I have to cry and swear at the keyboard, I send emails to pogge. (See, synthome: that's me doing self-promo.)
It was some of the other things she said that I still have probs with. But yes, harassment is wrong, punkt.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:51
#22
Here is an interesting Winnipeg Free Press letter to the editor from someone named Adrian Fine.
"DEAR EDITOR:
Re: The editorial on Israel Apartheid Week (Freedom trumps decency, March 6). You accuse IAW of "distortions" of the facts but then proceed to fill your editorial with so many untruths that even this term provides an inadequate description. In your case "contortions" would be more apt!"
See link above for more information.
Thankfully, Adrian Fine noticed that the Winnipeg Free Press used the term "so-called" Occupied Territories. Fine also pointed out a couple of other discrepancies.
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:56
#23
ETA: And yes, indeedy, Stockholm, Gilad Atzmon is Jewish and anti-semitic, just as Tarek Fatah is Muslim and Islamophobic. The world is full of passing strange things!
I believe that Atzmon converted to Christianity - but i digress. So, Unionist, if you think Tarek Fatah is an Islamophobic Muslim because he isn't pro-palestinian enough for you - what does that make you - an anti-semitic Jew??? What about Catholics who denounce the way priests have sexually abused kids - are they all self-hating catholics?
I applaud anyone who is willing to attack their own religion since i think that all religions are crap. I applaud Fatah for helping make Islam look bad just as i applaud people with the courage to stand up to the repressions and outrages of the catholic church etc...
Thu, 2010-03-18 13:01
#24
I have no interest in discussing this thread drift with you, after all I did was make a comment in response to your silly statement that a Muslim can't be anti-Muslim.
Thu, 2010-03-18 13:08
#25
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
I think it is probably more accurate to say he represents one tiny group of muslims who have issues with another tiny group of muslims (and vice versa.)
Thu, 2010-03-18 13:13
#26
She was simply trying to tone down inflammatory rhetoric and search for a peaceful solution.
Believe it or not, that's the argument put forward by all censors. Just yesterday the Iranian intelligence minister said in an interview that the Iranian media has become really peaceful since those 90+ troublemaking journalists have been sent to jail...
Thu, 2010-03-18 13:47
#27
inflammatory rhetoric
Tell it to Desmond Tutu. But what would he know?
Thu, 2010-03-18 14:02
#28
Ok, folks, I've been keeping a sort of informal score. At the end of the first period:
- Babblers who support DiNovo's speech and vote in the legislature - ONE (Open Hand, a rookie who signed up on Tuesday).
- Babblers who oppose DiNovo's speech and vote in the legislature - EVERYONE ELSE.
Tune in after the break to see if the CDN supporters can rally and turn this game around.
Thu, 2010-03-18 22:20
#29
Canadian Jewish News:
Sheldon Kirshner (Canadian Jewish News):TORONTO — A comment by Ontario New Democratic Party leader Andrea Horwath on Israeli Apartheid Week (IAW) has aroused indignation among Jewish community groups.
Horwath recently described a Feb. 25 provincial motion condemning IAW, tabled by Thornhill Progressive Conservative MPP Peter Shurman, as being “divisive by nature.”
All 30 members who were present in the 107-seat legislature, including members of the NDP, voted for the resolution to condemn IAW, which has spread to 40 cities around the world since its launch in 2005 at the University of Toronto. Attempts to reach Horwath were unsuccessful.
Expressing disappointment over Horwath’s position, B’nai Brith Canada’s executive vice-president Frank Dimant said, “The fact that [she] is denouncing the anti-IAW motion, while at the same time members of her caucus voted in favour of it is hypocritical.”
He added, “The unanimous support for the resolution to condemn the hate-fest known as Israeli Apartheid Week, which often leads to anti-Semitic outbursts, was a very important non-partisan stand against anti-Semitism in Canada.”
Describing Horwath’s comment as “unhelpful double-speak,” Dimant said she should have taken “a more principled position.”
Howard English, UJA Federation of Greater Toronto’s vice-president of strategic communications, issued a sharply worded statement.
“The false Israel apartheid label is divisive, not the condemnation of Israeli Apartheid Week. IAW, based on distortions of history, is designed to stifle dialogue,” English said.
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18765&It...
Fri, 2010-03-19 11:54
#30
remind
Meanwhile, Sandra Bullock moved out of the house, her and Jesse James shared, as he apparently has been fucking around with another woman for the last 11 months.
Fri, 2010-03-19 12:11
#31
Meanwhile, Sandra Bullock moved out of the house, her and Jesse James shared, as he apparently has been fucking around with another woman for the last 11 months.
Huh?
Fri, 2010-03-19 13:38
#32
Thread jumps shark.
Fri, 2010-03-19 14:00
#33
That's the third time in about a week-and-a-half that someone has said a thread has jumped the shark. Why now?
What's next, "Sit on it"?
Fri, 2010-03-19 14:17
#34
A little nostalgia
Fri, 2010-03-19 14:25
#35
I didn't see the two earlier uses. What should I have said instead? We have lift-off? Ground control to Major Tom? Toto, we're not in Kansas any more?
Work with me here, al-Q.
Fri, 2010-03-19 14:34
#36
Well remind has successful refocused the thread with her suggestion that the level of our discourse is about the same as idle gossip. But for some of us this is the best we can do, it's a serious discussion. Thus skdadl you should have responded by getting the thread back on topic, perhaps with something like this.
Sat, 2010-03-20 01:48
#37
OK, so Cheri isn't perfect. Who is?
And so, not every one of her views aligns perfectly with the self annointed progressive left.
She's still better than most of the other politicians out there, by a long shot.
Her contribution to get minimum wage lifted was huge, and gave the NDP a victory.
She continues to work tirelessly on real issues such as affordable housing, and social assistance rates, not BS issues like the credit card fee.
Her behaviour wasn't great. She really should stay off political forums and blogs, as we all get emotional and say things that politicians aren't supposed to say.
Should she apologize? You need to understand how media works, before that questions can be answered.
Right now, very few people know about the incident, and it hasn't really cost her anything.
However, were she to publicly apologize, suddenly it's news and 30 times as many people here about it, and judge her for it.
So, sadly, while she might want to apologize, any political handler worth the minimum wage she fought for, would advise her to say nothing about it, and let it blow over.
Sat, 2010-03-20 02:06
#38
Of all the things wrong in Liberal Ontario, we're supposed to believe Cheri Dinovo is it? Don't make us laugh. She's worth a dozen Pinocchio McGuiltys and any of his underlings running things.
Sat, 2010-03-20 08:42
#39
Fidel's right - global warming is worse also.
However, were she to publicly apologize, suddenly it's news and 30 times as many people here about it, and judge her for it.
Serious question... if she apologized - who would think ill of her, other than those who want anti-Israel dissent crushed?
Sat, 2010-03-20 09:55
#40
Frustrated Mess
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
I think it is probably more accurate to say he represents one tiny group of muslims who have issues with another tiny group of muslims (and vice versa.)
I would say he has discovered how to become a darling of the dominant political culture and media for whom muslims are convenient scapegoats.
Sat, 2010-03-20 10:33
#41
In one of his mailout articles he quoted Daniel Pipes as some kind of authority. Not a fan of his writing nor his politics.
Sat, 2010-03-20 12:20
#42
Fidel's right - global warming is worse also.
That's right. We had the first government action on GHG emissions in Canada right here during Ontario's first NDP Government. But this is off-topic in a thread about supporting Cheri Dinovo, I must admit.
Serious question... if she apologized - who would think ill of her, other than those who want anti-Israel dissent crushed?
I think someone should apologize for making us endure their anti-Dinovo rhetoric in thread after thread. We get your point already. Do you have anything good to say about Cheri Dinovo, or is it all negative? What about the anti-war movement demanding at least an apology from actual war crims?
Sat, 2010-03-20 12:39
#43
Yes, of course. It's Israeli Apartheid Week that's responsible for the continued occupation in the West Bank and the expansion of settlements. How could we have not seen this sooner?
Frankly, rhetoric like that only shows that Zionist ideologues will use the slightest excuse as a pretext for the Israeli government's behaviour and will deflect on the flimsiest of premises.
As for DiNovo, I don't think there's a serious chance of her apologizing, her personality doesn't lend itself to self-criticism or admitting error. The best hope is she'll either adopt a better position or at least a more nuanced one when Shurman moves this motion next year and let's hope the ONDP follows the example of the federal party and either votes against the motion (rather than "abstaining" - whatever that means in a political forum that doesn't record abstentions) or at least moves an amendment.
Sat, 2010-03-20 12:47
#44
Do you have anything good to say about Cheri Dinovo, or is it all negative?
Yes, Fidel. She is, by all accounts, an amazing activist and ally on issues from workers' rights to LGBT rights to standing up for the poor and oppressed.
That's why an apology on this one issue will strengthen, not hurt, her reputation and her ability to continue to champion these causes.
Now, do you have any word of criticism of what she did on this one occasion... or is it all positive?
Sat, 2010-03-20 13:42
#45
Do you have anything good to say about Cheri Dinovo, or is it all negative?Yes, Fidel. She is, by all accounts, an amazing activist and ally on issues from workers' rights to LGBT rights to standing up for the poor and oppressed.
That's why an apology on this one issue will strengthen, not hurt, her reputation and her ability to continue to champion these causes.
Now, do you have any word of criticism of what she did on this one occasion... or is it all positive?
I agree with Noam Chomsky when he says that meaningful change in Israel and Palestine can only be affected by US Government and its foreign policies toward Israel. The relationship between the US and Israel is not what it was between the US and apartheid South Africa. Some things are not as bad in Israel, and some things are worse than they were in Pic Botha's South Africa. The world is run according to a mafia don, and that's Uncle Sam, according to Noam. Nothing happens unless the don says so, and I don't think the don is ready to give up on his frontline state in the Middle East yet before moving on to the next country targeted for frontline status. And there is a colder war on right now, and I think that Chomsky is right in that anti-war activists should focus on crimes of the state. And we have plenty of state and war crimes to focus on right here on this continent home to vicious empire central. We could aid all nations where the don interferes politically by raising awareness about the source of the political interference right next door, Canada's largest trade partner whose mafia capos control so much of our economy and influencing Canadian foreign policy in other countries as if our leaders are mere puppets on strings.
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time. And yes, it did end badly for Catholics, monks and their in general. That's not a good omen for the anti-war movement faced with opposing a global king and what is the most well stocked army in world history. I think the left has to ask itself though whether we can be satisfied picking small fights with the bully's pipsqueeks, or do we take on the bully himself and his collaborationist minions in Ottawa?
Sat, 2010-03-20 13:45
#46
things are worse than they were in Pic Botha's South Africa.
I think you are confusing Pik Bohta with PW Botha. Not that Pik was a whole lot better for being a "liberal" defender of apartheid.
Sat, 2010-03-20 14:00
#47
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time.
Ok, I know they went on record opposing Henry VIII. Did you have any other examples?
Sat, 2010-03-20 14:16
#48
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time.
Ok, I know they went on record opposing Henry VIII. Did you have any other examples?
The Catholic Church was kicked out of England at that point. Catholics were rounded up and slaughtered. Monasteries and abbeys were razed to the ground, and monks who didn't flee were murdered. England's only social services were pretty much outlawed. There was no more opposition from the Church in vicious empire central after that point, no. I see what you're getting at. Henry didn't have Catherine of Aragon murdered though because he was afraid of retribution by Spain.
What I am saying is that today's vicious empire central still exists and is well fed since Thatcherite educated Mbeki made the economy in South Africa even worse than it was under Pic Botha. And our quislings in Ottawa have their heads so far up the king's derriere today that they need fresh air pumping to them.
Sat, 2010-03-20 15:02
#49
remind
damn I thought I read "fresh air pumkins".......and was trying to put that into a derriere equation.
Sat, 2010-03-20 15:09
#50
This this forum came from discussions about IAW, I'll post here.
From GlobalPost.com:
If any steps are to be taken toward peace, [BU Students for Israel Co-President Rachelle] Rubin said movements such as IAW need to end.
"Weeks like Israel Apartheid Week completely destroy the road to peace," she said. "It doesn't include any dialogue, any desire to impart fact. It's very one-sided and it's not a one-sided issue. There has to be an examination of both sides."
My interpretation of the quote above is that the Israelis will not negotiate until movements such as IAW end. Once the people in IAW have stopped speaking, then the Israelis may start negotiating. Strangely, if IAW and its supporters stop speaking, the Israelis will hear no complaints. With no complaints, there won't be any reason for Israel to negotiate.
Sat, 2010-03-20 15:26
#51
I don't even know why we have a parliament anymore with stooges like Harper and Iggy taking up space in Ottawa. The two of them should just take turns reading aloud from the imperial directive sent from Warshington first Monday morning of every month and save us the charade that they're actually running things. It's a total farce.