... "and a fast-growing service sector"...
Is Greece about to be stripped of its (financial) sovereignty?
Tue, 2010-03-09 16:11
#52
netsia
Tue, 2010-03-09 16:17
#53
Snert
Yes. That means money.
My point is that Greece seems to have been doing OK recently, making events of the 60's kind of irrelevant.
Tue, 2010-03-09 16:21
#54
netsia
If the 60's are irrelevant that would make their 'being the cradle of democracy' even less historically relevant then, at least by your view.
Tue, 2010-03-09 16:28
#55
good one Netsia
Tue, 2010-03-09 16:33
#56
Snert
Fair enough. Let's again go back to 1981 then, when Greece had a fully functioning parliament. My point still stands. Haiti they're not.
Tue, 2010-03-09 17:12
#57
It is always best to start a nation's history at the point when a new "democratic" government is elected after the locals have been ruled by a fascist government backed by America. Time and again it has been proven that the quickest route to real democracy is to murder and terrorize the communist left first. Then you can have elections where the whole population understands where the margins of acceptable political discourse are.
Tue, 2010-03-09 17:14
#58
[url=http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17937]The Fall of Greece[/url] Yes, It Really is a Capitalist Plot
The Greek crisis can allow the EU to put into practice for the first time its “Treaty instruments” concerning “supervision of budgetary and economic policy”. Interest rates may go up because of “risk”, but there is to be no risk. The pound of flesh will be delivered.There was no such supervision of the financial fiddling which caused this mess. The EU statistics agency Eurostat recently discovered and revealed that in 2001, Goldman Sachs secretly (“but legally”, protest its executive officers) helped the right-wing Greek government meet EU membership criteria by using a complicated “currency swap” that masked the extent of public deficit and national debt.
Rightwing governments in Greece require no supervision by EU finance bureaucrats while they're cooking the books with help from predatory lenders in New York. The austerity comes when socialist governments are elected and find the country's finances in a mess. It's politically expedient that way.
Tue, 2010-03-09 17:32
#59
Snert
Terrorized, kropotkin? Are you sure they didn't just "trick" the Greeks again? March in backwards so it would look like they were leaving? That sort of thing?
Tue, 2010-03-09 17:39
#60
netsia
So, smashed the financiers twice with Greece & Iceland & just a few, even just a couple more to go to ratchet up the nerve-bite & have them giving up the ghost
Tue, 2010-03-09 17:40
#61
No I mean the fascist government that took power in the 60's and was backed by America engaged in terrorism against its citizens who were communists and activists. If you don't believe that I would suggest you read some history. State terrorism is every bit as evil when it is done by self professed Friedmanites not just bad when it is engaged in by self professed Marxists.
Tue, 2010-03-09 20:20
#62
American banks are being informally punished by Europe by not using them.
European countries are blocking Wall Street banks from lucrative deals to sell government debt worth hundreds of billions of euros in retaliation for their role in the credit crunch.
For the first time in five years, no big US investment bank appears among the top nine sovereign bond bookrunners in Europe, according to Dealogic data compiled for the Guardian. Only Morgan Stanley ranks at number 10.
Tue, 2010-03-09 23:01
#63
Europe is very wisely beginning to divorce itself from an America that can only go further into debt, with an emasculated citizenry that makes the average Greek appear positively Socratic by comparison.
Thu, 2010-03-11 12:47
#64
Protesters clashed with riot police as more than 30,000 people marched through central Athens on Thursday during a nationwide general strike against extensive spending cuts by the country's socialist government.
Hundreds of masked and hooded youths punched and kicked motorcycle police, knocking several off their bikes, as riot police responded with volleys of tear gas and stun grenades.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/11/greece-labour-strike.html#ixzz0htK8sLPd
Thu, 2010-03-11 12:54
#65
Greece might well go anarchist by the end of the decade, hopefully with a better ending then spain
Sat, 2010-03-13 06:26
#66
quote:
"Hundreds of masked and hooded youths punched and kicked motorcycle police, knocking several off their bikes, as riot police responded with volleys of tear gas and stun grenades."
Action that would leave them doubly stunned.
The EU is preparing a bailout package for Greece, and Portugal quietly goes about cutting costs.
Sat, 2010-03-13 15:39
#67
The socialists should declare all debts incurred by the previous rightwing government null and void and break with the EU. They'd be better off in the long run, and so would the rest of the "PIGS" countries. Governments must consider mounting serious challenges to international capital, or we can forget about democracy in the long run.
Sat, 2010-03-13 15:45
#68
netsia
The EU has announced jointly with Greece's leadership, a bailout package of around 25B, based on a calculable current debt load of around 12B to 15B, so you can see for yourselve the pattern of what is primarily an initiative of the giant European banks which includes other private investors to try and use the situation to blood-suck the life out of Greece's economic viability which is what would be put in place to happen if Greece accepts these bailout terms, which for the sake of their economic sovereignty the people of Greece obviously need to refuse!
The other point is that Greece just raised 5B in a sale of long-term bonds, so this 25B is also a ridiculous scheme in terms of the debt load it is proposed to be covering!
+ The terms of the bailout do include austerity measures, so go figure, the government agrees to many billions more than it needs, but more than half of this amount is structured debt interest repayments, so they end up with less $ to invest in the Greek economy????????
... ah, is that clear enough for you & would you agree that this being a fishy deal would be an understatement?
Sat, 2010-03-13 16:22
#69
That's PIIGS (Italy AND Ireland). But how do they survive alone? Olives and ordinary wine have a limited shelf life.
Sat, 2010-03-13 16:46
#70
That's PIIGS (Italy AND Ireland). But how do they survive alone? Olives and ordinary wine have a limited shelf life.
I think that the EU is setting some arbitrary level of spending constraints for PIIGS countries. According to Keynes, those are the wrong policies. The EMU acts like a gold standard constraint for EU member countries. Keynes said that in recessions, governments have a responsibility to spend. Fiscal constraints and what's needed are two separate ideas altogether. The EU economies have been relying on consumption and deficit economies in the US, and Michael Hudson described this superimperialist arrangement. I think that if EU heads are looking to continue riding the back of US consumption and deficit spending, bubble economies etc, then it's they who are prescribing bad policies for EU governments. Spain and Greece etc need the right amount of government stimulus spending not fiscal constraints that will do nothing but feed the banks their pounds of flesh while economies stagnate and unemployment soars.
Sat, 2010-03-13 17:03
#71
After a half-century year hiatus, German Imperialism is again on the march and it has been since the fall of the soviet union.
I believe that's what this incidence is about, Germany is going to strip Greece of its financial sovereignty, and eventually do so for other European countries, perhaps even Spain and Portugal but most importantly the eastern bloc.
Sat, 2010-03-13 17:23
#72
Pity the eastern Europeans they thought they were getting social democracy like Scandinavia not the EU equivalent of Mexico in NAFTA. Don't worry they will likely devise a strategy that includes Economic Zones for Greek islands where the workers can spend generations paying off the debts of the high flying Greek financiers who swam with the big sharks.
Sat, 2010-03-13 23:45
#73
It is always best to start a nation's history at the point when a new "democratic" government is elected after the locals have been ruled by a fascist government backed by America. Time and again it has been proven that the quickest route to real democracy is to murder and terrorize the communist left first. Then you can have elections where the whole population understands where the margins of acceptable political discourse are.
Oh come on.
The socialists have still been elected several times since the restoration of democracy. In fact, the socialists have been in power for nearly 20 of the past 30 years in Greece . . . which may be part of Greece's problem:
Empathy in Short Supply: Greece not a simple fable about ants and crickets
Well here is the thing. Real, live Germans are not heartless ants, and the Greeks are not broke because they are giddy crickets who sing their summers away. Greece is a grown-up country with grown-up problems: rough, tough politics, and a lot of recent history, not all of it very nice. And it is precisely that recent history, and rough politics, that are at the core of Greece's fiscal woes today. Take the painful question of the huge public sector, and all those civil servants with jobs for life, and unusually generous retirement packages. The existence of those jobs for life is not a cultural quirk, in which Greek officials simply like coffee and backgammon too much to do any work. It is the end result of a brutal, multi-decade power struggle between the left and the right: a struggle that got people killed within living memory.Talking to a Greek friend (and former senior finance official) the other day, he very precisely placed the origins of the current fiscal mess in the eminently political move by the former socialist prime minister, Andreas Papandreou (father of the current prime minister, George) to use public sector jobs to bring Greeks of the left into the mainstream of Greek life, after years of exclusion.
The late Andreas Papandreou’s strategy in the 1980s was to give the disenfranchised, who formed the bulk of PASOK’s voters, a shot at living like the middle class. If this meant throwing European assistance and subsidies around like political favors and giving pensions to people who had never contributed to social security (such as farmers), then so be it. At last, all those who had been shut out by the right-wing establishment which triumphed in the Civil War in 1946-49 – and which was thoroughly discredited by the dictatorship of 1967-74 – would get to share in the wealth of the nation. The fact that this new middle class was founded on wealth that the country was not producing meant that the economy broke free from all logic and went into its own orbit. PASOK established the National Health System and poured money into education but it also undermined the gains by destroying any semblance of hierarchy, accountability and recognition of merit in the public sector. This meant that no one really knew how much money was being spent nor whether those who deserved it most were getting it. Costs rose while productivity plummeted. A wasteful public sector, in turn, condemned the private sector to inefficiency and lack of competitiveness. New Democracy, especially in the 2004-09 period, made the situation worse by doing almost nothing to cut costs and increase revenues, allowing the economy to career out of control.
The Greek civil war, and the bloody score-settling that followed, is a living memory for many Greeks. Any consideration of Greek nepotism or clientelism needs to be seen in that light. So for example, it is not enough to say that Greek civil servants enjoy jobs for life, and that is a big problem . . . But the bloated public sector is also a function of history.
. . .
Newspapers here in Belgium talk all the time about the government needing to "buy social peace" by paying off some interest group or other. In Belgium, the alternative to "paix sociale" is a strike. In Greece, plenty of grown-ups remember when the alternative to social peace was their neighbour, or their loved-one, vanishing in the night into a jail cell or worse. The current clientelist truce between right and left is the price (albeit a horrible, wasteful price) established for the current version of social peace enjoyed in Greece.
After a half-century year hiatus, German Imperialism is again on the march and it has been since the fall of the soviet union.I believe that's what this incidence is about, Germany is going to strip Greece of its financial sovereignty, and eventually do so for other European countries, perhaps even Spain and Portugal but most importantly the eastern bloc.
Do you think it would be better if Germany and the rest of the EU:
A) just handed Greece billions of euros without any conditions?
B) did absolutely nothing and left the Greeks to their own devices?
Sun, 2010-03-14 00:41
#74
netsia
That was pretty deep, A_J, I think you likely educated all of us following this thread. I would be going with your B) option, but admit that's a shot in the dark too... what I just can't see the logic in right now is how there are conflicting statements about the situation Greece presently finds itself in, on the one side (are these even opposing views?) you see statements that Greece doesn't need a bailout, which I'm inclined toward, and on the other this proposal for a ~25B bailout 'package'?... Any clarifications here?
Sun, 2010-03-14 00:51
#75
netsia
Sorry but, after reading the article link & thinking what it presents again, I think it may well be of internally relevant interest for Greece, but without providing an accounting of what the article is espousing, it is actually, as an article, off topic.
Sun, 2010-03-14 07:16
#76
The Economist will sometimes do that. Didn't notice Wall Street speculation as an "externality", either. Could have been written by Aristotle, although he, like Aesop, might have featured layabout grasshoppers, rather than crickets.
Sun, 2010-03-14 13:49
#77
After a half-century year hiatus, German Imperialism is again on the march and it has been since the fall of the soviet union.I believe that's what this incidence is about, Germany is going to strip Greece of its financial sovereignty, and eventually do so for other European countries, perhaps even Spain and Portugal but most importantly the eastern bloc.
Do you think it would be better if Germany and the rest of the EU:
A) just handed Greece billions of euros without any conditions?
B) did absolutely nothing and left the Greeks to their own devices?
Germany's imperialism in this regard, or Franc-German imperialism more generally, didn't start yesterday like you imply.
Greece's situation also failed to start yesterday, unlike what you believe.
Its roots are in the treaty of Maastricht, which outlined fiscal terms for all EU countries that surrendered their financial sovereignty and joined the Euro. Countries not only gave away the privilege of absorbing economic shocks through monetary policy, but they gave away fiscal policy as well. Greece entered these ludicrous fiscal agreements because it had no other choice, it could not run evil deficits. At the same time, these are not concerns for Germany, it is an exporting power which has less incentives to run deficits. The ECB is basically the Bundesbank in terms of staff anyway.
Its loss of economic sovereignty was inevitable. Now they will be liquidating their social welfare state, selling off assets and giving up economic control to central europe. Meanwhile, back in central Europe, this will be played as an act of great compassion in France and Germany, saving the European Union from the slothfullness and laziness of the Greeks.
Sun, 2010-03-14 19:19
#78
netsia
... Now you're talking, or so it begins to seem, as the substance to what's been just unfolding~ so you're really giving the correction to the thread's opening premised question since you've explained that this began with the signing of the Treaty of Maastricht, is this correct?
Back to culture then... comparing Iceland and Greece~ comparing-observing 'cold' & 'hot'~ Icelanders gave the cold shoulder ~ Greece can expire the Treaty by fire!!
Those two comparisons are most relevant to what has been 'about to happen', even while the circumstances of Ir., It., Sp. & Portugal are obviously technically the same vis a vis the EU.
You mean Franco-German don't you? And, if referring to that 'alliance' as the hegemonizing 'powers' of Central~Western Europe, such a reference does include the Benelux countries, Switzerland & Austria, in effect automatically by definition, doesn't it?
Sun, 2010-03-14 19:45
#79
Greece's situation also failed to start yesterday, unlike what you believe.
If you took the time to read what I had posted, you would see that I don't believe Greece's problems started yesterday. They go back at least 30 years.
Its roots are in the treaty of Maastricht, which outlined fiscal terms for all EU countries that surrendered their financial sovereignty and joined the Euro. Countries not only gave away the privilege of absorbing economic shocks through monetary policy, but they gave away fiscal policy as well. Greece entered these ludicrous fiscal agreements because it had no other choice, it could not run evil deficits.
Any financial sovereignty that was surrendered was surrendered voluntarily. Nobody forced Greece to join the European Community - it had a choice. It could have stayed out like Norway, or not adopted the Euro, like Sweden and the UK. Clearly Greece saw membership - including the obligations of membership - as more advantageous than staying out.
So what is your solution for Greece? Hand it the billions it needs to continue running its unsustainable patronage programs? Do nothing, regardless of the impact Greece might have on the rest of the Euro-zone? Kick Greece out of the Euro-zone and let it handle its own monetary policy once again?
Thu, 2010-03-18 01:17
#80
Greece's situation also failed to start yesterday, unlike what you believe.If you took the time to read what I had posted, you would see that I don't believe Greece's problems started yesterday. They go back at least 30 years.
Its roots are in the treaty of Maastricht, which outlined fiscal terms for all EU countries that surrendered their financial sovereignty and joined the Euro. Countries not only gave away the privilege of absorbing economic shocks through monetary policy, but they gave away fiscal policy as well. Greece entered these ludicrous fiscal agreements because it had no other choice, it could not run evil deficits.Any financial sovereignty that was surrendered was surrendered voluntarily. Nobody forced Greece to join the European Community - it had a choice. It could have stayed out like Norway, or not adopted the Euro, like Sweden and the UK. Clearly Greece saw membership - including the obligations of membership - as more advantageous than staying out.
So what is your solution for Greece? Hand it the billions it needs to continue running its unsustainable patronage programs? Do nothing, regardless of the impact Greece might have on the rest of the Euro-zone? Kick Greece out of the Euro-zone and let it handle its own monetary policy once again?
Oh...I dunno. How about scrapping the "Eurozone" as currently structured and rebuilding it on humane and egalitarian terms?
And why are you taking this incredbidly condescending "it's for their own good and it's their own fault for not listening to their betters" tone towards Greece? It's not like that country ever did anything to you, dude.
Thu, 2010-03-18 09:14
#81
Snert
I just saw Greece in the stairwell, crying. What the hell happened in here?
Thu, 2010-03-18 12:30
#82
re talk above of German and/or French "imperialism" 
both Greece and Italy pedalled and pedalled, using every accounting trick possible to get their books into semi-respectable shape to qualify for the euro;
when the word started to get out late 1990s that MAYBE Italy would not make the first cut, and would enter "somewhat later" (cf. Giscard), the whole Italian political/administrative class panicked and pulled together to take dramatic measures to cut and trim accounts to get into shape (ditto for Greece for the '04 Olympics, roughly speaking, which were almost taken away from them early 2000s, as a fiasco loomed)
they were BEGGING to get into the euro ... hardly a hostile takeover! any European newspaper reader knew exactly how restrictive the Maastricht criteria were, it was widely publicized, and several countries rejected them
Thu, 2010-03-18 13:18
#83
Snert
How about scrapping the "Eurozone" as currently structured and rebuilding it on humane and egalitarian terms?
I assume that it's the raising of taxes that's inhumane (won't the right be happy to hear that the left finally agrees with them on this?) and that Germany, who tightened their economic belt a few years back, expecting Greece to do the same must be the inegalitarian part?
Well, if I ever start to spend more than I earn, and give expensive gifts to my buddies with no idea of how I'll pay for them, and suddenly the rent is due, I hope all the hand-wringers in this thread will have my back. I mean, it's not MY fault, right?? Right??? Someone must have tricked me, or it's all these creditors fault or something. Help me out here! Don't make me take any ownership of my own problems!!
Thu, 2010-03-18 14:51
#84
Snert I think you missed the part where the elite spends the money and the bill gets sent to the peons. The peons in Greece don't seem to think that is fair. Go figure.
Thu, 2010-03-18 15:02
#85
Snert
You get the government you elect. Right now Canada could certainly talk to them about that.
Thu, 2010-03-18 15:25
#86
You get the politicians you elect unfortunately once elected they all play from the same book. I await a time when there is no corporate involvement in politics so the people have a chance of electing politicians who will follow through on their anti-corruption platforms. In the meantime we get governments that all agree that what is good for the corporate world is good even for the poor.
Fri, 2010-03-19 10:06
#87
Our new Not Rex columnist has an amazing video column on this. It's funny, sarcastic, and smart. I love this guy!
Fri, 2010-03-19 13:55
#88
Snert
I posted this under the video (which was interesting, BTW) but I don't know that the video blog comments are going to get the same sort of traffic that babble gets:
A socialist government can't shift the tax burden to corporations and "the rich" because why?
You'd think it would be that easy. "Greek Government Announces New Corporate Tax Rate of 90%". Sure, you'd have 20 or 30 CEOs lighting trash on fire in the streets for a few days, but then, solvency and joy!
Sat, 2010-03-20 12:43
#89
netsia
Recent developments of the EU 'closing ranks' to provide Greece with the mechanism to borrow at rates so that they won't be gouged by predatory finance lending + trading practices looks possibly hopeful, while difficult to discern from the outside, so at least the press conference after meetings in Hungary suggest a clear enough way forward, with Hungary having followed such a route that has quickly brought them to having the lowest debt in the EU, not that Greece should consider following another's sucess as a formula & I'm sure we'll be learning more on all this...
Points are well taken that Greeks need to take ownership of any corruption within their own government.
To protect their (financial) sovereignty, wouldn't 60% taxation for corporations & all other private capital investment be plenty sufficient? Does someone want to do the math?
Mon, 2010-03-29 14:47
#90
Snert
[url=http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2010/03/29/13393186-ap.html]Bomb blast in Athens kills teen[/url]
Huh. Usually when a bomb goes off there's at least one, and sometimes more than one, radical group clamoring to take responsibility.
Funny that in this case, nobody seems to want to admit that they're the courageous bomber. Wonder why?
Mon, 2010-03-29 15:12
#91
Good question. Likely becasue they were not intending on killing anyone and they made a mistake when they bombed this right wing institution. Killing innocent bystanders is always the problem with violence. No matter how symbolic the target collateral damage is always a possibility and thus the bomber is criminally negligent and hopefully will be brought to justice.
The "non-profit" Hellenic Management Association seems to be the organization that represents the elite who played high risk poker with the Greek people's finances. It is a great target as a symbol but nothing excuses this kind of violence. I would appear some people think there seminars on ethics was merely window dressing.
The Hellenic Management Association's (EEDE) Banking Forum permanently present for fifteen years in the banking area demonstrates a unique contribution in the promotion of banking entrepreneurship.
This year's event focuses on IT's impact on Banking Institutes' business effectiveness, within the recent financial crisis environment.
http://www.exodussa.com/default.aspx?id=1631&nt=108&lang=2
About CEO Summit
The CEO Summit is an initiative of the Hellenic Management Association, co-organized with the Hellenic Federation of Enterprises, the Foundation of Industrial and Economic Research and the Entrepreneurship Club of Greec
This is the first time that it will be conducted and the ambition is to become an annual event, addressing CEOs from Greece as well as from other European countries.During the CEO Summit 2007, two very important topics will be discussed:
Business Ethics and Corporate Social Responsibility.The structure of the event is divided in three main sessions. In the first session Business Ethics will be discussed. In the second session the discussion will have to do with Corporate Social Responsibility, while in the third session, representatives from professional bodies will comment on the previous sessions.
http://www.ceosummit-eede.gr/ceo_about.php
However, the President of the Athens Chamber of Commerce and Industry (Εμπορικό και Βιομηχανικό Επιμελητήριο Αθηνών, EBEA), Constantinos Michalos, and the President of the Hellenic Management Association (Ελληνική Εταιρεία Διοίκησης Επιχειρήσεων, EEDE), Konstantinos Lambrinopoulos, expressed their strong opposition to the bill.
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2010/01/articles/gr1001019i.htm?utm_...
Thu, 2010-05-06 04:13
#92
Greece: Resistance to the Terrorism of Capital
http://www.marxist.com/greece-resistance-to-terrorism-of-capital-way-out...
"As they resort to the 'rescue plan' of the EU and the IMF which is usury of the worst degree, the government, the bourgeoisie and their political mouthpieces in the media cultivate a climate of unprecedented psychological terrorism towards the working class..."
Thu, 2010-05-06 13:27
#93
netsia
An article link providing much clearer in-depth explanation of the updated situation related in particular to German banking in Greece :
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19012
Thu, 2010-05-06 22:48
#94
Good. the more the merrier..here's another:
Statement on the Greek Crisis - Solidarity with the Greek Workers' Struggle!
http://www.ainfos.ca/ainfos18227.html
"Greece is a test case for the social dismantling that awaits us all. This policy is being enacted by all the institutional parties, by every government and by all globalized capitalism's institutions. There is only one way to hold back this policy of barbaric capitalism: popular direct action.."
Thu, 2010-05-06 22:55
#95
Frustrated Mess
[url=http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2010/03/29/13393186-ap.html]Bomb blast in Athens kills teen[/url]
Huh. Usually when a bomb goes off there's at least one, and sometimes more than one, radical group clamoring to take responsibility.
Funny that in this case, nobody seems to want to admit that they're the courageous bomber. Wonder why?
Maybe for the same reason the courageous Americans who kill innocent while sucking sodas and reading porn don't take responsibility for their bombs. Ya think?
Wed, 2010-05-26 05:57
#96
netsia
After a half-century year hiatus, German Imperialism is again on the march and it has been since the fall of the soviet union.
I believe that's what this incidence is about, Germany is going to strip Greece of its financial sovereignty, and eventually do so for other European countries, perhaps even Spain and Portugal but most importantly the eastern bloc.
... Ya know, it's quite amazing how the tables have turned so, that now Germans have to decide what to do to make as sure as they can of retaining some semblance of an economic base, but more importantly how to maintain their sovereignty as defined separately from economic-market instruments. It's now starkly clear that this is not German Imperialism, but that amongst the EU banking sector, German banks have more to be hiding from the world than the rest do, and you can fairly well bet now that Leichtenstein's & Switzerland's banking sectors do also.
So because of the EU, Frankfurt is burning... ... they would understandably like to avoid it, with 'their regulators' 'talking of toughening regulations and increasing transparency'= lame, and quite a spectacle!