This thread:
[url=http://rabble.ca/babble/anti-racism-news-and-initiatives/immigration-and... and indigenous solidarity and how they intersect[/url]
Could some mod either reopen it, or explain why it was closed?
Thank you.
Who closed this thread (Immigration & Indigenous solidarity) and why?
Fri, 2010-03-26 18:19
#1
Who closed this thread (Immigration & Indigenous solidarity) and why?
Fri, 2010-03-26 20:10
#2
Oldgoat closed it after attacks/abuse/insults/spirited defense/hurt/etc in the thread. He re-opened it briefly then closed it again
Fri, 2010-03-26 20:26
#3
remind
have been there x2 today and it has not been closed.
Fri, 2010-03-26 20:35
#4
It's open, but I'm avoiding that whole mess. Makes me want to weep. Lots of issues there but really really disappointed in the reply to unionist and P. People they loved died too. We can all be allies. There is no need to be divisive and mean, especially when it comes to heartfelt hurt.
E. Tamaran - I've met a ton of angry angry people, and that doesn't help our side. We need allies. This is the way things have to be. FN population is so incredibly low due to real and cultural genocide. The strong voices of our fellow Jewish brothers and sisters, those who have also lost loved ones and large chunks of their history, they are our friends and we need them. Telling them to go back to where they came from isn't helpful and it isn't ever going to happen. What we need to do is focus on the present and what we can do for the future in regards to the survival of indigenous people all over the world.
Yeah it sounds all hippie like and it is all about love and peace. I'm not down with war. Of any kind. We have to recognize we all share common ground and work together to ensure what happened to FN people and what happened to Jewish people will never happen again.
Together we can do that.
Fri, 2010-03-26 21:04
#5
Thank you, Stargazer.
Sat, 2010-03-27 07:41
#6
We have to recognize we all share common ground and work together to ensure what happened to FN people and what happened to Jewish people will never happen again.
It's strange. The Jews were genocided in Europe. Now ther're the ones genociding the Muslims in Palestine. I guess "never again" means "never again to us".
Sat, 2010-03-27 10:14
#7
It's strange. The Jews were genocided in Europe. Now ther're the ones genociding the Muslims in Palestine. I guess "never again" means "never again to us".
Do you hope to get banned and have a good story to tell?
I tried to [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/anti-racism-news-and-initiatives/immigration-and... out to you[/url] and you seem to reject that. That's unfortunate.
My suggestion to the moderators, for what it's worth, is that they condemn you and your post for the Jew-hating shit that it is, but let you stay here in the hope that through discourse and exchange, we can try to understand each other better.
Sat, 2010-03-27 10:33
#8
Hey, I just read what's posted here? Israeili Apartheid Week ring a bell? My eyes are being opened to what the Isreailies are doing.
Criticise Israel=Anti-semetic?
WTF is that? We can criticise any country except Israel? And it's true that what's going on there is genocide of muslims by Israeilis. I don't doubt it at all.
ETA: Unionist, I get it OK. You're Jewish. I should be more careful whe I criticise israel in your posts. Sorry.
Sat, 2010-03-27 10:50
#9
ET, I think it's right and good to criticize Israel. But to blame "the Jews" for the actions of the Israeli state is a different matter.
Sat, 2010-03-27 10:54
#10
ETA: Unionist, I get it OK. You're Jewish. I should be more careful whe I criticise israel in your posts. Sorry.
Heh, no matter how vicious and sarcastic you pretend to be, I will continue to embrace and cherish you as a fellow victim. We should unite against those who victimize us, instead of (as you spend 99% of your posting time doing) trying to scare away allies with base provocations. I don't suppose you realize that all our just causes (including yours) will be doomed to failure unless we stand in solidarity with each other?
Sat, 2010-03-27 11:06
#11
I don't know why people bother debating this guy. ET has proven to be a complete racist in every thread I've seen him participate in. He advocates the ethnic cleansing of FN reserves as the most important action against colonialism. That kind of racist shit does a lot of damage to the real FN struggle against colonialism and capitalism. I would have been surprised if he wasn't an anti-semite.
Sat, 2010-03-27 11:08
#12
Maysie
Hey there everyone.
E.Tamaran, I value your voice on babble, and I echo what OG and Stargazer said.
It's strange. The Jews were genocided in Europe. Now ther're the ones genociding the Muslims in Palestine. I guess "never again" means "never again to us".
It's not "the Jews" who are killing and murdering Palestinians. It's the Israeli government, the Israeli army and the Zionist politics, practices and actions of Israel. "The Jews" are a very large group of people, and it includes anti-Zionist folks like Unionist. And me.
It may be a tiny difference to you, but the implications are huge. One speaks to where the power resides and the legitimate criticism by anti-oppression activists and allies all over the world of an oppressive murderous government, not unlike the Canadian government. The other, the language you used, however inadvertently, is the language of anti-Semitism. Since I'm assuming you are not an anti-Semite, this is a small but important technicality.
This is neither a warning nor a threat to ban, just to be clear about why I'm posting this. Yours is a much needed voice on babble, and I mean that sincerely.
Sat, 2010-03-27 11:13
#13
I don't know why people bother debating this guy. ET has proven to be a complete racist in every thread I've seen him participate in.
Let me share my reasons with you as to why I still "bother" with E. Tamaran.
David Ahenakew was an important FN leader who made lasting contributions. Yet, he seemed to think that Hitler was justifying in "frying" my family and millions of others.
When he was charged under the Criminal Code, I condemned that effort to persecute him. Did he have some ideas that were, maybe, even worse than E.Tamaran's? You bet he did. Did he get caught in an off moment saying those ideas into a microphone? On a couple of occasions. In the greater scheme, was he no longer an ally of oppressed and marginalized people everywhere? Of course he was still an ally.
People say and think some pretty awful things. But we have to work hard to distinguish between potential friends and real enemies - all the time. Otherwise, we will all go down to defeat, separately.
Sat, 2010-03-27 11:23
#14
David Ahenakew was an important FN leader who made lasting contributions. Yet, he seemed to think that Hitler was justifying in "frying" my family and millions of others.
I appreciate your explanation U, but many of us Aboriginal activists had long known Ahenakew as a slimy, self-serving corrupt politician who had mastered the FN politician's art of hypocritically using anti-colonialist rhetoric. It came as no surprise to many of us that he was a vile racist to boot. I prefer to have nothing to do with such people. I don't require holiness from my friends and allies, but we don't need to scrape the bottom of the barrel either.
Sat, 2010-03-27 11:36
#15
Joey, as clearly as I can: [b]It is not for non-FN people to judge which FN leaders are good or bad, self-serving or selfless, etc.[/b] Only First Nations can make that decision. You are entitled to distinguish and judge among them if you like. I will not do so - unless of course FN people stand up publicly and clearly reject some individual as being a traitor to their cause, and I will support them uncritically in that. That's what allies do IMHO.
But if Ahenakew or E.Tamaran or anyone else makes Jew-baiting antisemitic comments, expect me to call their comments by their true names. You see, it's the same principle which applies.
Sat, 2010-03-27 13:33
#16
This is neither a warning nor a threat to ban, just to be clear about why I'm posting this. Yours is a much needed voice on babble, and I mean that sincerely.
Thanks Maysie. I really respect you as a voice of reason on this board. You have an unique ability to see past the smoke and get to the fire of the matter.
As for my comments regarding the genocide of muslims, I guess I equated "Israeli" with "Jew" only because Israel is always described as The Jewish State (tm). You can see where someone not in tune with Middle East affairs could get confused. I wish others in this thread could understand that...Calling me "Jew hating" was way over the top Unionist.
Sat, 2010-03-27 13:39
#17
Calling me "Jew hating" was way over the top Unionist.
Ok, I retract calling your post "Jew-hating" when you said that Jews are "the ones genociding the Muslims in Palestine". Just don't say it again.
And as you research more about the Middle East, you'll find that the Israeli mass murderers are not going after "Muslims in Palestine" either. They are committing aggression and murder and practising apartheid against Arabs - of any religion, and of no religion. The struggle there is not about religion. And they're not just attacking Palestinians either. You can ask the Lebanese, for starters.
Sat, 2010-03-27 13:51
#18
From this perspective, as a colonial occupier, I believe it is not good to state an alliance with either/any First Nations perspective on this specific interpersonal/interPeoples spectrum.
I agree - and just to clarify, what I meant was literally when FN people as a whole show a broad consensus that some leader is a traitor, only then would I "take sides" with them. And I realize how rare it would be for such a consensus to be found. But if you want an example where I have no hesitation condemning a so-called indigenous leader as a traitor - here you go: Patrick Brazeau. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here, but I kinda doubt it!
One would think given the larger numbers of sexist and anti-First Nations commentary, people should expect to hear it being called out more, and indeed support it being called out, just as they do antisemetic commentary.
I fully agree with that too. Jews in Canada don't exactly have their rights trampled on a daily hourly minute by minute basis, the way women and FN do! That's why you'll find that the main source of anti-semitism is in fact the pro-Israel Zionist organizations and their Harperite allies - and that anti-semitism consists of identifying the Jewish people as a whole with their own crimes.
Sat, 2010-03-27 13:51
#19
remind
.... I will not do so - unless of course FN people stand up publicly and clearly reject some individual as being a traitor to their cause, and I will support them uncritically in that. That's what allies do IMHO.
That is a difficult statement of positioning for me, for several reasons, but I guess mainly because I have heard and witnessed a good many First Nations persons express things exactly the way E Tamaran does, and sometimes in much stronger language and action, and they are definitely not bottom of the barrel people. Just as I have heard a good many who speak as Joey Ramone does, who is also not a bottom of the barrel person, though People from the other side may call him equivalent to that.
From this perspective, as a colonial occupier, I believe it is not good to state an alliance with either/any First Nations perspective on specific interpersonal/interPeoples spectrum. It is a First Peoples reality positioning that they will have to figure out, or not, between them all, without any occupiers declaring sides, or even favouring a side. If we occupiers are going to make commentary, it needs to be unslanted and unbiased. And if we see other occupiers slanting and biasing a First People's positioning, we need to remind them they are then being, well....colonial occupiers.
But if Ahenakew or E.Tamaran or anyone else makes Jew-baiting antisemitic comments, expect me to call their comments by their true names. You see, it's the same principle which applies.
Can agree 100% with this, as I feel the same way about sexism and indeed about racism against First Nations. And I do call any comments by their true names, however for some reason I am chastized for it by some and told I am carrying on too much about it, and/or creating havoc, even though it is way more prevalent here at babble, and in society at large, than is antisemetic commentary.
One would think given the larger numbers of sexist and anti-First Nations commentaries, people should expect to hear it being called out more, and indeed support it being called out, just as they do antisemetic commentary.
Sat, 2010-03-27 14:20
#20
remind
...Jews in Canada don't exactly have their rights trampled on a daily hourly minute by minute basis, the way women and FN do! That's why you'll find that the main source of anti-semitism is in fact the pro-Israel Zionist organizations and their Harperite allies - and that anti-semitism consists of identifying the Jewish people as a whole with their own crimes.
The frequency of rights being trampled, or not so much, apparently does not correlate with amounts of those speaking about it, on the parts of some, at any rate. In these instances it seems a reversal in frequency causes a disportionate, silence vs speaking out against, activity compare.
In respect to your last sentence, I see exactly where you are coming from, however is it correct for non-Jews to take a position, weighted in favour of one position over the other? And I ask this sincerely, as I wrestle with it continually. As you have said all the same ally principles apply.
In saying this, I am not speaking about Israel's apartheid actions, and correctly condemmning them for what they are, but about inter-Jewish community relationships and struggles as a Peoples.
Sat, 2010-03-27 15:08
#21
In saying this, I am not speaking about Israel's apartheid actions, and correctly condemmning them for what they are, but about inter-Jewish community relationships and struggles as a Peoples.
I understand your dilemma. But there is no real inter-Jewish community struggle going on here. When CJC or B'nai Brith or Independent Jewish Voices or aka Mycroft or Unionist comments on censorship, or the Middle East, or Harper, or Israeli apartheid - [b]everyone[/b] is entitled to weigh in - because these are not "Jewish" issues, as you correctly point out about Israeli apartheid.
I suppose if we were to have a debate as to "which way forward for the Jewish people", then it would be best for non-Jewish allies to listen rather than lecture. But there aren't too many of those discussions here. Mostly we are talking about what stands Canadians, or progressives, or the people of all countries should defend - and there, we're all in the same game.
Sat, 2010-03-27 16:30
#22
remind
'kay viewed like that I can see your positioning, however, I am not sure that others voices will not chime in and state that they believe the way forward for Jewish peoples is part of the pro-Israel commentary.
How would you debunk this, if someone stated that to you....
Sat, 2010-03-27 19:35
#23
he's debunked that a 100 times over, every single time Peech and the other CJC supporters come out. I'm not so sure why he needs to "debunk" the actions and thoughts of others simply because they are Jews and he happens to be Jewish as well.
Sat, 2010-03-27 20:07
#24
'kay viewed like that I can see your positioning, however, I am not sure that others voices will not chime in and state that they believe the way forward for Jewish peoples is part of the pro-Israel commentary.
How would you debunk this, if someone stated that to you....
Well, if someone said that Saudi Arabia represented the way forward for Muslims, would progressive Muslims need to stop what they're doing and debunk that? Or could they just say: "For you to identify me with fascists, just because I call myself 'Muslim', is a mite over the top, isn't it?"
In the case of the Jewish people, the massive onslaught connecting us with Israel - an onslaught supported by imperialism (U.S., UK, Canada, the rest) - needs debunking all right. But anyone who posts to a progressive board who says (for example): "Well, you're a Jew, so you must like killing Muslims, right?" - I'm not going to debunk that. I'm going to fumigate it.
Agreed?
Sat, 2010-03-27 20:30
#25
Joey, as clearly as I can: [b]It is not for non-FN people to judge which FN leaders are good or bad, self-serving or selfless, etc.[/b] Only First Nations can make that decision. You are entitled to distinguish and judge among them if you like. I will not do so - unless of course FN people stand up publicly and clearly reject some individual as being a traitor to their cause, and I will support them uncritically in that. That's what allies do IMHO.
Yes, I understand you Unionist (at least I think I do), but I disagree. I have no problem with non-Aboriginal activists and potential allies judging FN "leaders" on objective criteria, and I feel entitled to do the same with respect to non-FN groups. Leaving aside particular personalities, is it wrong for a non-Aboriginal activist to point out that the National Chief of the AFN is really not a representative of "nations" at all, but rather the top lobbiest for Indian Act chiefs, most of whom are collaborators? I don't think so. I can agree or disagree, but I see no reason why a non-FN activist should not express such an opinion.
Sat, 2010-03-27 22:10
#26
Joey, as I said, you can go there if you like, but I can't.
Sat, 2010-03-27 22:39
#27
remind
'kay viewed like that I can see your positioning, however, I am not sure that others voices will not chime in and state that they believe the way forward for Jewish peoples is part of the pro-Israel commentary.
How would you debunk this, if someone stated that to you....
Well, if someone said that Saudi Arabia represented the way forward for Muslims, would progressive Muslims need to stop what they're doing and debunk that? Or could they just say: "For you to identify me with fascists, just because I call myself 'Muslim', is a mite over the top, isn't it?"
In the case of the Jewish people, the massive onslaught connecting us with Israel - an onslaught supported by imperialism (U.S., UK, Canada, the rest) - needs debunking all right. But anyone who posts to a progressive board who says (for example): "Well, you're a Jew, so you must like killing Muslims, right?" - I'm not going to debunk that. I'm going to fumigate it.
Agreed?
Well, perhaps I worded that badly as i did not mean the literal you,nor really here at babble.
But meant what a non-Jewish person could to say to a person at large in society who makes a monolithic statement that ALL Jews are the same? Because afrter all we have been taught to believe ALL are as one....and I hear it all the time and am always let feeling I did not express that this is not so well enough, as often I am looked at in disbelief. For example, currently a long tiome friend of mine, who fairly recently discovered her Jewish heritage, and I are having distance in our friendship, as she believes ALL those of Jewish heritage must believe in Israel and got quite angry when I spoke of IJV's positioning in respect to Palestinians and that I also believe genocide is occuring.
Ir seems that it is natural (i say natural as the majority does it) that people want all people dominantly on their side, so they say/portray overly strong , and perhaps very incorrect, things like; all the left are the same, especially if they want everyone on the right to unite under their banner ;) or all South Asians are the same, or all First Peoples are the same, and then comes the propaganda, to create push pull factors.
It is this starkness I am trying to get beyond personally, as I believe we all have been conditioned to see the furthest ends of the pendulum and nothing in between.
Sun, 2010-03-28 08:46
#28
I don't believe we have though remind. I haven't seen much evidence here at all to determine that the left has a problem thinking of Jews as all the same. And I doubt the media does as well, even though it plays mainly into the hands of the Zionists. But that is lazy and unethical journalism and partisiansip at its best (or worst).
Sun, 2010-03-28 09:02
#29
many of us Aboriginal activists had long known Ahenakew as a slimy, self-serving corrupt politician who had mastered the FN politician's art of hypocritically using anti-colonialist rhetoric. It came as no surprise to many of us that he was a vile racist to boot.
Ahenakew was not a racist! He was a great leader who was suffering from the onset of alzheimers, and he had diabetes when he said those words. He was an Elder who was taken advantage of by a corrupt settler press. And it would seem some FN people believe those settler lies about him. Sad.
Sun, 2010-03-28 09:27
#30
E. T. I don't think that is true. You've heard from other FN people who think otherwise. Why does everything have to be so divisive?
Sun, 2010-03-28 11:40
#31
remind
Stargazer I am not sure of what you are meaningin respect to my post...
Sun, 2010-03-28 12:01
#32
I don't believe we have though remind. I haven't seen much evidence here at all to determine that the left has a problem thinking of Jews as all the same. And I doubt the media does as well, even though it plays mainly into the hands of the Zionists. But that is lazy and unethical journalism and partisiansip at its best (or worst).
What I mean is that as far as I can see, those on the left do NOt see Jews as all the same. The media spin however posits (or likes to try to do so) a different position.
Sun, 2010-03-28 12:41
#33
Unionist, if you're still following this wandering thread, I'd be interested in knowing why you think it's important to give uncritical support to FN "leaders" rather than critical support on an issue-by-issue basis. I'm just an activist, not an intellectual, so pretty much all of my opinions have been shaped by my experiences rather than by reading, but I do learn quite a bit on this board from posters such as yourself. I'm not looking for an argument, just want to understand your reasoning. If you've addressed this in another thread, please point me to it.
Sun, 2010-03-28 12:56
#34
remind
'kay, as I mentioned, I was really not speaking about here, but about beliefs by the public at large who do not identify themselves as right or left, who are good hearted people who are just awakening to "politics" and perhaps even social justice.
Sun, 2010-03-28 13:05
#35
Unionist, if you're still following this wandering thread, I'd be interested in knowing why you think it's important to give uncritical support to FN "leaders" rather than critical support on an issue-by-issue basis.
I don't think I said "uncritical support to FN leaders" - if so, I didn't mean that, because I do criticize them. I meant, uncritical support to First Nations people, and non-interference in their choice of leaders.
Why? Because of colonialism and imperialism and privilege and domination. If First Nations choose a leader who is (in some sense) bad for their interests, my brilliant critique will not be the tipping point to change that. Likewise if there is difference of opinion among First Nations (e.g. elected vs. traditional, etc.). All my criticism will do is put into question my role of support and ally.
I take the same stand when it comes to Afghanistan or Palestine or Iraq or Muslims or women or queers or any community or nation which is subject to oppression and subjugation.
I'll make an exception for those puppets who are installed and maintained by imperial force of arms (e.g. Karzai), or fairly universally recognized as puppets or traitors (Patrick Brazeau).
But, for example, I draw the line at "choosing" between Hamas and Fatah and indeed all the many other nongovernmental organizations of the Palestinian people. There is much I don't like about either one, but what good is that to their constituencies? Now, life doesn't stand still, and the time may come when allies have to say (as some do now) that Fatah are "traitors" etc. - but I happen to think that that can be as interfering and potentially destructive right now as criticizing Hamas for being "fundamentalist", etc. Those debates and decisions are for the Palestinian people alone.
So, while I don't characterize the FN leaders in terms of their role as leaders, I have no hesitation in saying what I think when they step outside that role. For example, when Phil Fontaine visited Israel as a guest of the Zionists and made outrageous and abominable statements, I blasted those on this site and elsewhere - I even went so far as to say that those statements cannot possibly reflect the interests and the struggle of the First Nations, and I warned them (as an ally) to steer clear of the Israeli apartheid regime. Likewise with Ovide Mercredi getting sucked in by these characters. You can see reference to those threads [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/aboriginal-issues-and-culture/fsin-and-jewish-co... and in the following posts[/url], but sadly the original threads themselves were lost in the babble makeover.
I condemned the persecution of David Ahenakew through the media and the criminal justice system - although I didn't hesitate to condemn the racist shit that came out of his mouth.
When it came to the Mohawk residency issue at Kahnawake, I maintained (and still do) that this is none of our (non-FN) affair. [b]None.[/b] Can you guess what I really think, deep down, about heredity-based requirements for membership in a nation? I'll send you a PM if you can't. But if First Nations aren't able or fit to pick and turf their own leaders, their own national policies, and everything else, then someone must explain to me how we differ from the kind governors, soldiers, and priests who spent so much tender loving effort to save these poor souls from themselves.
Hope that clarifies my feelings in the matter.
Sun, 2010-03-28 13:27
#36
Much food for thought Unionist. Thanks. Still not sure I agree with you on this, but I understand your position much better. I find the identification of class interests very simple, thanks to my class conscious working class upbringing, but identifying other political interests, such as those based on ethnicity or other identities, especially concerning non-Aboriginal issues, is often a challenge for me.
Sun, 2010-03-28 13:31
#37
Well, Joey, what you just said there goes double for me too, except that for me, on Aboriginal issues, I give myself no latitude at all. As I've said before, we've done enough to last many generations.