U.S. militia members charged in plot to kill police, attack funeral
"Nine suspects tied to a Christian militia in the Midwest are charged with conspiring to kill police officers, then attack a funeral in the hopes of killing more law enforcement personnel, U.S. prosecutors said Monday.
U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade said agents moved on the group because the Hutaree members were planning a violent reconnaissance mission sometime in April - just a few days away."
Oh my...
I am surprised this incident is not receiving additional attention. I am wonder who made the arrests, it would appear Homeland Security was involved yet they seem to be rather tip lipped about what has happen.
Some quotes from Huttaree.com and other sources commenting on them:
One Hutaree explains his belief in the logic of the Apocalypse, hoping for enough death and destruction to bring about a more pure society. “Enough people and things must be destroyed so that the system may start back over and inflate to maximum potential again. This time around though I see the potential of a long drawn out mad max type scenario, then after years of small scale fighting things will slowly turn back to civilization to start the process again. In doing so the same destruction of people and things will happen. Yes, the whole world at war, but just dragged out without any distinguishable side.”
They like the Tea Party!
The Hutaree's idea of the enemy has a great deal of overlap with the enemy identified by the Tea Party movement: A mysterious New World Order that is being created by big government liberals.
their own nation, within the USA -
The Hutarees imagined that they had created a new Christian republic, seceding from the USA.
Citizens of the Colonial Christian Republic could just go around following what they believed the laws of God to be, without any regard to anything else.
I am surprised this incident is not receiving additional attention. I am wonder who made the arrests, it would appear Homeland Security was involved yet they seem to be rather tip lipped about what has happen.
Homegrown, non Muslim terrorists create quite an ideological problem for a lot of people in America and Canada, especially among the (political) right leaning.
I agree. I am still surprised that this group has not received any coverage by either left or rightwing media/blog organizations. These groups are usually well covered in the news.
Frankly, I think not giving them their 15 mins of fame is a good thing.
However, I am sure the msm does not want to indicate "christian" extemism as it does not match the "Muslims are terrorists" meme they are shovelling, and had it been an"other" religion that is all we would be hearing about.
I suspect policing authorities in the US are keeping close tabs on these freaks and don't want to give themselves away. The authorities may be planning to move in on them and are thus keeping a low profile. That's a possible scenario - right?
well if we have heard about it, I am sure the people in the sect have, they are mising 9 leaders too, which must have left a gap.
I am a big believer in consistency, I think conservative commentators should be demanding all self-identified Christians should be coming forth and publicly scourging themselves for the actions of the their co-religionists. It's not so much that I want to see a lot of Christians doing kinky masochistic stuff -- I just believe in consistency.
Okay I confess. I'm on a mission from God. And I've been instructed to take no prisoners in the final battle between the forces of good and army of darkness.
April 19th will be an interesting day.
I had to look ^that^ up. Kind of wish I hadn't...
From a site I will not link to, rallying for the 19th:
People have to know who is in charge and who must bend the knee and kiss the ring that rules. I suppose that’s why firearms are so important.
They're the KKK in camouflage: white supremacist, border-trolling, homeschooled, jesus-camped, "I have a right to my grenades" idjits. ... As a side note, didja hear? The raid is proof that Obama is a sekrit muslim. Cuz they're christians. This is the group logic they're working with.
bagkitty - said what I think, and with fewer curse words than I would have.
I agree. I am still surprised that this group has not received any coverage by either left or rightwing media/blog organizations. These groups are usually well covered in the news.
Are you talking about coverage before the raid happened or after?
I am talking about after the raid.
I am talking about after the raid.
Okay. I'm just surprised because it was all over the place yesterday and even made Canadian newscasts top stories. CTV had a good three to four minute blurby. I probably spent way too much time following this story yesterday. It did seem to be treated as fairly major news. It was on at least two of the major news networks in the states, CNN and Fox at least. I don't know about the others because I don't get them on the tv. At one point it was in the top headlines. I also read quite a few blogs and major blog sites which did have stories about it. I did however notice a very glaring ommition of coverage on more righter wing blog sites. On a few big ones it didn't seem to exist and still doesn't. Many of the ones that did cover it though were quite defensive about it. Several came right out in both stories and comments that defended the group. They either didn't believe it, called it a false flag as the government is obviously trying to divert attention away from healthcare, an attack against Christians, part of Obama's ongoing plot to demonize the right, the crimminalization of government dissent, and the more crazier ones a lot of talk about the Muslim controlled Obama admin starting it's religious war against 'the right' and lots of 'it's started folks, time to make sure you're well stocked Obama is coming for all of us now" general freaking out.
...and the more crazier ones a lot of talk about the Muslim controlled Obama admin starting it's religious war against 'the right' and lots of 'it's started folks, time to make sure you're well stocked Obama is coming for all of us now" general freaking out.
...amazing, no wonder we had an infusion here yesterday.
army of darkness.
Good movie.
For the lack of coverage? These incidents are usually widely reported and links are drawn to extremist Christian causes, etc. I mean, one needn't look further than Ruby Ridge (more conspiracy/NWO related), the Oklahoma City Bombing, Waco, etc. They all spring from the same font. However, in this case they're going to keep tight lipped because it is pretty hard to get informants into small, tight knit ideological communities. A lot of these people are a lot more experienced in this stuff and more knowledgeable of law enforcement, etc. than your usual kid that is accused of being a terrorist. Infilitration is a lot harder than finding the right message board. You find the right message board, you 'get in'...then you have to actually make an in with the militia sorts - and they are obviously a little skeptical about outsiders. So, yeah, I can't imagine them being too open right now about disclosing information on the case. The last thing that needs to happen for law enforcement is the entire militia movement in the US going on super high David Icke Reptoid-paranoia alert - they're pretty much there all the time, why kick it into overdrive when a quiet police action is going to net more of these people? We all know that transparency and cops are two words that don't mix. Why think that they would be open in this situation?
While specific details of how we 'investigated and found out' aren't being talked about, the indictment which lays out their basic case and the reason for the charges has been released to the public. It's also been reported that members of other militias actually helped the FBI with the investigation. Also from looking at this groups public face on the net I don't think it was that difficult for law enforcement to keep track of them or find avenues for their information. These folks helped them out by having their own website, posting numerous videos on youtube, their entire membership list, manifestos, talked in forums, posted info about training and meetings (date time location) and provided a list of all their 'friends' and 'associates' on pages like MySpace where anyone could read it. It wasn't even set to 'friends' only. After the raid story broke it took the blogosphere a few hours to track down even the most obscure pieces of information on these guys and that's just using the basics of the internet that anyone has access too. The FBI apparently had them on the investigation radar since 2008.
For a group planning secret plots and whatnot they sure were idiots when it came to keeping information on the down low.
This was covered quite extensively on CBC radio yesterday.
Papa Bull - are you putting Waco in the same category? IMO and from what I have watched from independent film makers on the Waco incident was that the ATF and the military went in to kill them, and they did. Waco was a tragedy. One the government is still trying desperately to cover up.
What we have not been shown are those close ups of the Huttaree members, their symbols and icons, their bibles. Media shows those identifiers when it is Muslim terrorists, but not when they are Christian terrorists.
In fact, has media been using the term "Christian terrorists"? I doubt it, because that would change the well manicured view that only Muslims are terrorists.
The media propagandists do like to make the distinction of "Christian FUNDAMENTALIST terrorists" as if "Fundies are not us" but the alignment of Huttarees with Tea Party philosophy contradicts that.
perhaps ElizaQ, they figured God was on their side, and would protect them and lead them to a "win" so they need not be careful?
What we have not been shown are those close ups of the Huttaree members, their symbols and icons, their bibles. Media shows those identifiers when it is Muslim terrorists, but not when they are Christian terrorists.
In fact, has media been using the term "Christian terrorists"? I doubt it, because that would change the well manicured view that only Muslims are terrorists.
The media propagandists do like to make the distinction of "Christian FUNDAMENTALIST terrorists" as if "Fundies are not us" but the alignment of Huttarees with Tea Party philosophy contradicts that.
Not much use of 'terrorists' except on a few blogs. Lots of reference to their "Christian" beliefs and a "Christian Militia" group and references to their name meaning a "Christian warrior". CNN at one point had those references in there little screen ticker thingy. Fox seems to have avoided 'Christian' in headlines but did show clips from their videos, refers to them as Christian militia in their articles and talked about their end-time antichrist beliefs. . I don't know about CBC but the CTV report last night used "Christian Militia" to reference them.
perhaps ElizaQ, they figured God was on their side, and would protect them and lead them to a "win" so they need not be careful?
After watching and reading some of their stuff, finding out that they believed that way wouldn't surprise me at all.
I'm wondering how many members are actually FBI, CIA, Fatherland Security, NCIC, Secret Service or Blackwater informants/agents.
Funny thing about plots like this: those simpering morans would never go through with it. Like the US itself, these far right groups are able to only attack the weakest or those least able to defend themselves. Up against an actual armed opponent, they fold and scurry away. They're full of big talk, but that only extends to gun and authoritarian fetishism.
The far right is too deferential to authority to pull something like this. Burning a black church and beating up immigrants and gays is about the extent of their bravery.
This was covered quite extensively on CBC radio yesterday.
Papa Bull - are you putting Waco in the same category? IMO and from what I have watched from independent film makers on the Waco incident was that the ATF and the military went in to kill them, and they did. Waco was a tragedy. One the government is still trying desperately to cover up.
I really don't think that they went in to kill the Branch Davidians. I think that they went in to kill Koresh. From what I've seen, the ATF lost the element of surprise and started to lie to cover up a major series of tactical mistakes. They lied to Koresh and they lied to the media - immediately. The ATF came in way too heavily armed and used high aggressive tactics - it has been widely noted that their noise 'therapy' tactics were highly problematic. Koresh clearly wasn't stable. Why do you make them further unstable?
But yeah, I'd put Waco/Mt. Carmel in a similar category. I don't think that the Branch Davidians were going to head out and attack anyone - they were not a threat except to the members of the organization. But nonetheless, you take a bunch of people with some isolationist, absolutist ideas about the state and they have lots of powerful military grade weapons? Doesn't turn out pretty.
perhaps ElizaQ, they figured God was on their side, and would protect them and lead them to a "win" so they need not be careful?After watching and reading some of their stuff, finding out that they believed that way wouldn't surprise me at all.
The capacity for people to be brainwashed/indoctrinated is fascinating.
Watched a documentory on Discovery on those who followed Manson, and they interviewed the one women, and I seriously could not, still can't, wrap my brain around how anyone could believe that type of exalted beingness, about any human.
A small update: Apparently they were being watched for sometime by the Feds. My guess is the investigation got to the point where someone in charge thought it was best to pull the plug on them.
Good riddance to them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_re_us/us_fbi_raids
This is kinda a off branch of the discussion, but what is it about Michigan? I used to play on line euchre and a whack of them were from Michigan, and it shocked me how irrationally "religious" they were, and then Jack Van Impe, is also from there.
By way of an example, to me, is anyone who thinks "God" is going to be interested in whether or not you win a online card game is really not thinking to rationally. Say nothing of the internalized privilege they perceive themselves to have.
Tough admittedly I also feel the same about those who think "God" is going to help them win a reality TV game like Big Brother or Survivor, and so you see them praying to "God" on bended knee..
Papa Bull, if you have a chance get a hold of Waco: The Rules of Engagement and the follow-up (by a different director) called Waco:A New Revelation (the latter is online in two parts) and you'll see exactly what I mean. The Branch Dividians were killed - slaughtered in fact. This last documentary has forced the US gov't to re-open this case and investigate the ATF, the FBI and the CIA (something the Clinton administration did not do. In fact, they lied outright).
I thought the exact same as you until I saw the actual footage (not the footage we were shown when this was going down - on Live TV at that!)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5510108493532885562#
Part 1 and 2 of the latter documentary is here. I'd be interested to see what you think after watching these two films.
Has anyone read what happened at Ruby Ridge? Someone mentioned it and I've heard the name in passing before, Figured it was some guy who thought the government was after him locked himself away and got in a shoot out wash rinse recycle.
You should take a look. it really makes you question the ATF and US government.
Scary.
P4, very familiar with Ruby Ridge. It seems very similar tactics were used on them as on the Davidians.
I'm sorry for the thread drift but it shocked the hell out of me when I read it. No idea what the hell the ATF were thinking.
Were the Davidians actually guilty of the whole typical cult leader sleeps with 14 year olds has 6 wives kind of thing?
I remember watching the botched Davidian ATF raid, what a disaster.
Added to say I only ask about the "typical cult leader stuff" because I remember seeing it suggested in the news as almost a justification for "going in".
I'm sorry for the thread drift but it shocked the hell out of me when I read it. No idea what the hell the ATF were thinking.
Were the Davidians actually guilty of the whole typical cult leader sleeps with 14 year olds has 6 wives kind of thing?
I remember watching the botched Davidian ATF raid, what a disaster.
Added to say I only ask about the "typical cult leader stuff" because I remember seeing it suggested in the news as almost a justification for "going in".
Yeah. I went out of my way once to read some of the stuff that David Koresh had written - as well as a lot of alleged statements and all of that. If you ignore the hysterical commentary that often accompanies the actual stuff, you see a very disturbing idea of controlling people by a very narcissitic man. He's very hard to 'figure out', because I think there is always the history and the 'history'. The two are often indistinguishable, but there are always those stories that just don't add up. A lot of stuff about Koresh has been misunderstood and misrepresented due to distortions from villification and almost romantic martyr/hero fantasies. But I have no doubt in my mind that he was a very misogynistic man that abused the people that he had within his organization, the people over whom he exerted a lot of control.
I don't doubt that either Papa Bull, but I still have no doubt after watching these two movies that the government killed them.
Edited to add: P4, I don't even think those allegations were levelled at Koresch. They lived in Texas, where everyone is free to own guns and weapons of various kinds. The ATF went after Koresch because they had weapons - no intent to use them at all. The fact that somehow it was fine for so-called ordinary citizens to amass weapons and not fine for the Davidians suggests that the ATF were used for different reasons, namely to ensure they were all killed and slaughtered.
Given the ATFs track record if they wanted to eliminate the Davidians they probably could have called in a better choice.
I think the ATF were used because of the firearms present.[I know, duh] Kind of like they were grasping at straws because they didn't have a strong case is what I'm getting at.. Though some of the weapons they [Davidians] had were military grade anti-armour weapons with armor piercing ammunition.
I find that kinda fucked up about the states. I think everyone should have the right to possess firearms for hunting, fun shooting or collecting but anti-tank rifles with armor piercing ammunition? I think that may have been what the ATF used as justification.
Also it might depend on US laws. For example if I am a known drug dealer/criminal in Canada the police STILL need a warrant to come into my house. Yet as a citizen with a clean record not even a speeding ticket police can come into my house sans warrant to check to "see if my firearms are stored properly"
If the US want to let private citizens collect this shit they need an equally or greater armed police force to deal with them when they do decide to say "fuck the police come and get me"
While you can "stockpile weapons and ammunition" all you want in Texas there are limits to the types of weapons and ammo you can have. Automatic weapons are pretty much illegal.
It would seem basis for the ATF search warrant was for suspected modified (automatic) weapons that would be illegal to own without the proper permits which Koresh did not have.
From Wikipedia:
In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were accused of stockpiling illegal weapons. Authorities investigated these charges and obtained a warrant to search Koresh's compound. Former Davidian Marc Breault claimed that Koresh had "...M16 lower receiver parts" (when the receiver is modified and these parts are added to an AR15 rifle it becomes a fully automatic weapon and is subject to the National Firearms Act and its $200 tax in the United States).[7]
According to the Affidavit presented by ATF investigator David Aguilera to US Magistrate Dennis G. Green on February 25, 1993, the Branch Davidian gun business (the "Mag Bag", Route 7, Box 555-B, Waco, Texas, 76705, located on Farm Road number 2491), had purchased many legal guns and gun parts from various legal vendors (such as forty-five semi-automatic AR15 lower receivers from Olympic Arms). Deliveries by UPS for the "Mag Bag" were accepted and paid for at Mount Carmel Center by Woodrow Kendrick, Paul Fatta, David Koresh or Steve Schneider. These purchases were traced by Aguilera through the normal channels used to track legal firearms purchases from legal vendors. None of the weapons and firearms were illegally obtained nor illegally owned by the "Mag Bag"; however, Aguilera affirmed to the judge that in his experience, in the past other purchasers of such legal gun parts had modified them to make illegal firearms. The search warrant was justified not on the basis that the Davidians had purchased anything illegal, but on the basis that they could be modifying legal arms to illegal arms.[11]
End Wikipedia
I watched the You tube post Stargazer... I hadn't seen that one before. Thanks
A few observations:
1 I don't think the ATF wanted to kill the Davidians in the initial raid... you can see some of the agents had bunches of disposable handcuffs on them. A clear indication they wanted to and expected to arrest/secure allot of people. After the failed raid and the AFT fatalities I would say yes the ATF, FBI parts of the federal government were out for blood. They were left to get out of control to include committing violations of their own laws and policies resulting most defiantly in a cover up.
2 During the footage of the initial shoot out there is footage of an ATF agent getting shoot at (through the wall) on the roof of a building. The rate at which the holes appear on the wall does not indicate and automatic weapon. Not to say there could and been some but I didn't see any evidence, nor head any real automatic weapons fire in any of the footage (I've been on both ends of said fire before).
3 The hole in the roof of the bunker; a real smoking gun for me... I've seen lots of those as well. That is from a military style demolition breaching charge. What the fuck they were thinking using a weapon like that when they knew children were hiding somewhere in the building is beyond me adn farther proof the Feds were out of control.
To link this back to the original topic: Perhaps with this group getting the exposure it's getting the debacle at Waco can be brought back into the light. Unfortunately it looks like the media is starting to drift away form the subject of Christian militant groups.
So they aren't the brightest lights on the Christmas tree...
hey Doug, the fact these people had no idea what "tea bagging" is pretty much shows they are not the brightest people. BTW, I stumbled upon a flickr site yesterday and it was chock full of tea baggers with their signs. The reason for the flickr about tea baggers was the fact that the majority of these people can not seem to spell.
Are we talking about the same tea bagging that I'm thinking of?
I doubt my parents know what tea bagging is.. I'm looking for some kind of alternative reference but can't seem to find one.
One of the more brilliant, thoughtful, articulate (and handsome) posters here opined:
I'm wondering how many members are actually FBI, CIA, Fatherland Security, NCIC, Secret Service or Blackwater informants/agents.
So...:
The undoing of a southeast Michigan militia group was an [url=http://www.freep.com/article/20100401/NEWS06/4010419/Hutaree-Real-threat... federal agent[/url] who infiltrated the unit and [b]helped make the bombs[/b] it planned to use in an uprising against the government, prosecutors said during a four-hour hearing Wednesday in federal court in Detroit.
Sounds like another "Toronto Eighteen".
I'm no fan of the dumbass militias, but entrapment is entrapment. How far would this "plot" actually go without the helping hand of the state security apparatus? Mostly interweb whining, I suspect. And some shot up road signs and PBR cans.
They can always plead their case, and say that they're really just a "pretend" anti-government militia that got tricked into joining the big leagues by fancy government agents who used big words to confuse them.
But I think they'd have a hard time convincing any jury that they only considered actually doing something about the guv'mint when the guv'mint guy kept nagging them.
Not only were they dumb enough to believe the Hamas b.s., but the hoax figure of $20 million quickly became $20 billion. If they hadn't shut them down, the price tag would have probably reach $20 trillion by the weekend. Doesn't matter because everyone knows that when you add "zero" to something, it stays the same.
I agree: it's easy to laugh and belittle members of militias like this; especially given the mug shots (Wow!) That and their apparent lack of education make them easy targets. Perhaps looking stupid is a way of disarming the media and public attention towards them. It seems to work... I think one of the biggest reasons most in the USA, media included; dismiss them is because of the impression that "they're too stupid to do anything serious. Real terrorist are smart and crafty".
And yeah I'm guilty of this as much as anyone else: When I think of them as terrorist (and they are) the words bunch of idiot dumb fucks keeps flooding over that thought till its drowned out. Perhaps it's a subconscious form of denial, who knows. Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing should have been enough to have removed all doubts as to if militias like this are terrorist organizations or not. It apparently wasn't enough and one can only shutter at the thought of what the real wake up call is going to have to be for the general public.
Yup, they are friggin' wackos, that is no doubt.
But can anyone tell me what mainstream Christian denomination/church has come out to support and glorify these kinds of people including Timothy McVeigh?....was there or has been a Baptist church?...Pentecostal?.....Roman Catholic?...Presbyterian?...Lutheran?..Methodist?....etc etc? Keep in mind I am asking about mainstream national church organizations. I haven't heard anyone applaud these people but I sure can tell you that I know muslims who laughed and took joy about 9/11.
And as for entrapment...jeez, give me a break. I don't care who it is, what "organization", the color of their skin or how they speak....anyone plotting to kill people and Mr.Undecover Cop/Mr.Rat comes along and says he can help them get explosives(or whatever) and they continue their planning deserves to be locked up.
So they aren't the brightest lights on the Christmas tree...
You got that right and there's plenty of them out there. I know a guy in New Mexico. A die hard Republican, a Vietnam vet, and an Obama hater like ya wouldn't believe. A guy who would welcome you into his home no matter who you are but when it comes to politics and the current issues of the day, sadly I think his very ill informed and paranoid.
He sent me an email he received. This email claimed that part of the Obama health plan was to make more spaces in senior homes/nursing homes by euthanizing all sick and bed ridden seniors and cut off any federal funding to these people. He actually believed this email and sent it out to dozens of friends and people he knows. Yikes.
I haven't heard anyone applaud these people but I sure can tell you that I know muslims who laughed and took joy about 9/11.
That sort of garbage isn't really welcome here. I'm no moderator, but you've pretty well put a bull's eye on yourself.
I haven't heard anyone applaud these people but I sure can tell you that I know muslims who laughed and took joy about 9/11.That sort of garbage isn't really welcome here. I'm no moderator, but you've pretty well put a bull's eye on yourself.
I could care less because it's the truth. I had 2 men in my home just a few weeks after 9/11. One Kenyan and one Somali...the Kenyan I knew for years....both muslim. To make a long story short, both laughed and took joy about 9/11. That was simply my own little personal experience but I can also remember the images from many places around the globe where muslims danced in the streets with joy.
I don't see any christians having a parade or dancing with joy in the street over this militia group, Tim McVeigh or even any bombings in Pakistan, Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter.
I know how to get banned here and it probably isn't far...all ya got to do is speak the truth or simply not agree with most that's on here.
There have been a few celebrations by Christians over Christians dropping bombs in places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Japan.
Let me try and steer this tread away from the abyss it seems to have started heading towards...
Here is some information on the religious side of this... [Obviously the more testier side to this debate...]
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9610/militias.html
A cut from the above link.
Some commentators, focusing on the many overlapping concerns of the Religious Right1 and the militias, have linked them together. Morris Dees, chief trial counsel for the Southern Poverty Law Center, defines the "'patriot' movement... [as going] all the way from the more moderate elements, Pat Robertson and the Christian Coalition... to the Christian Identity extremists."2 Norman Olson, a leader of the militia movement in Michigan, agrees with Dees. He says, "[T]he militia is the militant or the right wing, if you will, the front line, the hard line, of the patriot community. The patriot community is a broad spectrum... involving the militia all the way down to the Religious Right and the political action groups and jury reform legislative action groups."3
End of cut
In summery: This, being the current American militia movement, is almost 100% about Christianity and white people. That is not to say it's all extreme or xenophobic but to try and drag other religions into this thread is distracting from the current subject matter.
Everybody knows about "the other guys"... it's these guys here that have managed to stay under the radar from the public.
Bec, the "more moderate element" includes Pat Robertson who once called for the assassination of a Head of State. Robertson was a key supporter of "Dubya" Bush in mid-campaign at the time of his incendiary remark.
Perhaps it might be better to divide them along the lines of "those who call for violence" and "those who carry out violence", hmm?
