Remembering the ideology that started the mess in Afghanistan:

100 posts / 0 new
Last post
freeatlast42
Remembering the ideology that started the mess in Afghanistan:

Quote:
The Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, set off a putrid spiral of death and destruction. The countless atrocities affected every aspect of Afghan life, but civilians sustained the most disturbing and outrageous losses. Their horror and tremendous agony has, for the most part, been either ignored or glossed over by Western news conglomerates

 

Quote:

During the Soviet military aggression in Afghanistan, over one million Afghans died and millions more were wounded or left to fend for themselves without the benefit of food, water, medical care, or housing. There were also numerous eyewitness accounts of incredible cruelty and acts of cold calculated murder. One such act was observed by a doctor in September of 1984 who witnessed Soviet troops in a Afghan village: "They tied them up and piled them like wood. They poured gasoline over them and burned them alive."

An Afghan resistance leader recounted how Soviet soldiers treated civilians who were left behind when another village was abandoned: "The Russians tied dynamite to their backs and blew them up." Another eyewitness described a fiendish practice that Russians used to extract information about the mujahadeen (Muslim freedom fighters): "They would slowly roast a child over fire".

Quote:

The Soviets also, reportedly would encircle villages, enter every dwelling, and kill every inhabitant, including old men, women and children. Before leaving, they would burn down the entire village.[1] A 1986 report gives a chilling account:

"In three small villages near Qandahar, last year, the Soviets killed close to 350 women and children in retaliation for a Mujahadeen attack in the vicinity. After slitting the throats of the children, disemboweling pregnant women, raping, shooting and mutilating others, the Russians poured a substance on the bodies which caused instant decomposition.

 

Quote:
The mujahadeen were like Mao Tse Tung's fish in the sea, and the Soviets in the mid-1980's began to adopt a policy aimed at draining the sea itself. Civilians were driven out of their homes as Soviet forces indiscriminately bombed villages and destroyed crops, orchards and irrigation systems, and scattered anti-personnel mines over large tracts of the country-side where a guerilla presence was suspected".[3]

Other eyewitnesses describe harrowing incidents of cruelty and almost unspeakable butchery:

"The Russians took 14 of us and made us stand in a line near this wall. Two Russian soldiers stood in front of us with machine guns. We began reciting The Holy Kalima from the Holy Qur'an, because we knew we were about to die. They machined gunned everyone of us. I fell. There were a pile of bodies, all on top of me. The soldiers searched us and took our money.

They moved me but I just pretended to be dead."[4]

An unidentified Soviet soldier described what he perceived as, "..no such thing as a peaceful population, they were all guerrilla fighters. I remember how we once rounded up all the women and children, poured kerosene over them and set fire to them. Yes, it was cruel. Yes, we did it, but those kids were torturing our wounded soldiers with knives."[5]

Another Russian describes the wanton lack of regard for human life, and what he perceives as reasons for the Soviet soldiers propensity to kill without restraint:

"A young soldier might kill just to test his gun, or if he's curious to see what the inside of a human being looks like or whats inside a smashed head. But there is also the fact that if you don't kill, you'll get killed.

It's a feeling of being drunk on blood. Often you kill out of boredom or because you just feel like doing it-it's like hunting rabbits.

 

 

Quote:

Maynom, an Afghan villager from Laghman province, describes a living hell:

"The rockets were falling all around us like leaves off a tree. My daughter's head was smashed open. Her brains were hanging from a branch. I lost Everything-my cousins, my nephews, everybody was killed-my wife, four children."[7]

With the numerous methods of inflicting suffering and devastation on a defenseless civilian population, there are none as revolting and as devilish as the purposeful targeting of children with the dispersal of millions of land mines.

Many of these explosive devises were designed to look like toys, and were fashioned in bright colors to attract the curiosity of children. These land bombs were shaped like butterflies, or kites, or made of translucent plastic (making them especially irresistible to unsuspecting children. Apparently, the purpose was to murder and to maim chidren who the Soviets feared would mature into freedom fighters. This practice, while either ignored or overlooked by Western media, is documented by independent news sources

 

 

http://world.mediamonitors.net/Headlines/Casualties-and-War-Crimes-in-Af...

al-Qa'bong

Well, Jimmy Carter isn't famous as an ideologue, but...

 

Quote:
Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

 

 

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

 

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Our latest Freak Dominion troll, "freeatlast42" starts a thread here that is a blatant anti-communist rant, using cherry-picked excerpts from an article that is primarily about [b]U.S. atrocities in Afghanistan[/b].

Of course, this troll doesn't bother to quote those portions of the article. Those are the parts that it [b]doesn't[/b] like. 

I suggest we ignore it and hope the moderators banish its ass.

freeatlast42

Quote:
The Soviets also, reportedly would encircle villages, enter every dwelling, and kill every inhabitant, including old men, women and children. Before leaving, they would burn down the entire village.

 

If the article is also critical of the US then you would have to agree that the article is balanced. BTW, I don't think the the US military is encircling villages and killing everyone in sight.

freeatlast42

Quote:
Our latest Freak Dominion troll, "freeatlast42" starts a thread here that is a blatant anti-communist rant

 

 

 

So, anti-Communist statements gets you in the cyber Gulag? How very Stalinest of you. Can't handle free speech?

Diogenes Diogenes's picture

I wonder what Carter would have to say now about that chapter in history. I think he's a pretty decent fellow and an excellent statesman.

Frmrsldr

freeatlast42 wrote:

Quote:
The Soviets also, reportedly would encircle villages, enter every dwelling, and kill every inhabitant, including old men, women and children. Before leaving, they would burn down the entire village.

If the article is also critical of the US then you would have to agree that the article is balanced. BTW, I don't think the the US military is encircling villages and killing everyone in sight.

What the Russians did in the Soviet Afghan War is history. There is a current Afghan war led by the Americans. The views in the article are balanced. Your views are not.

Why?

Or, in other words, what's your point?

 

Fidel

Quote:
[url=http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a1980traininginus#a1980tr... Afghan Fighters Begin Training in US[/url] Some fighters opposing the Soviets in Afghanistan begin training in the US. According to journalist John Cooley, the training is done by Navy Seals and Green Beret officers who have taken draconian secrecy oaths. Key Pakistani officers are trained, as well as some senior Afghan mujaheddin. Much of the training takes place in Camp Peary, near Williamsburg, Virginia, which is said to be the CIA’s main location for training spies and assets. Other training takes place at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, Harvey Point, North Carolina, and Fort A. P. Hill, Virginia. Subjects are trained in how to detect explosives, surveillance, how to recruit new agents, how to run paramilitary operations, and more. They are taught to use many different weapons as well, including remote-controlled mines and bombs, and sophisticated timers and explosives. Cooley claims that “apparently [no] Arab or other foreign volunteers” are trained in the US. [Cooley, 2002, pp. 70-72] However, in the late 1980s, US consular official Michael Springmann will notice fighters from many Middle Eastern nations are getting US visas, apparently to train in the US for the Afghan war (see September 1987-March 1989). Additionally, more training takes place in other countries. For instance, Cooley will note that “By the end of 1980, US military trainers were sent to Egypt to impart the skills of the US Special Forces to those Egyptians who would, in turn, pass on the training to the Egyptian volunteers flying to the aid of the mujaheddin in Afghanistan.” Cooley will further note that, “Time and time again, these same techniques reappear among the Islamist insurgents in Upper Egypt and Algeria, since the ‘Afghani’ Arab veterans began returning there in the late 1980s and early 1990s.” [Cooley, 2002, pp. 70-72] [u][b]It is not known how long these training programs continue.[/b][/u]
And thus began the CIA's long and intimate affair with the anticommunist jihadis who were suddenly unemployed after the end of cold war and who ended up being sent to do jobs in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Dagestan, Yemen etc and ongoing. Al-Qa'eda is strongly rumored to be Al-CIA'da even today.

E.Tamaran

Communism was bad. Communists murdered 22000 Polish officers in 1940. etc etc etc...

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Where is our poster now? The US is charged with murdering innocent men and pregnant women at a birthday party and then digging the bullets out of the women to cover-up the atrocity. I suppose our friend overlooks this sort of atrocity, one that escaped the embedded memory hole, due to the ideological purity.

E.Tamaran

Tongue out you're not much on sarcasm detection are you FM?

kropotkin1951

Before the Afghan civilian government became communist women had the legal status of chattels.  When I was there in the 1970's I never saw a single Afghan women's face.  My wife did when we were in gender segregated restaurants on the road.  The place was also the poorest part of the world.  I saw UNICEF milk tins with NOT FOR SALE on them being sold at most stores. Because of that I never let my children collect for UNICEF later in life. The Coke trucks were Russian made and the road from Herat to Kabul was built half by the Americans and half by the US.  The US asphalt was pot holed and dangerous while the Soviet cement was great except at the seams between slabs where it looked like traffic calming.  

There has never been a free and democratic government in Afghanistan.  The communist civilian government was the closest they have had and they made the mistake of inviting in foreigners to support them and no government in Afghanistan can survive inviting foreign troops into Afghanistan.  That is their tradition and it goes far deeper than Canada's love of hockey.

clandestiny

something escapes logic here. Afghanistan was in the USSR 'sphere of influence' after WW2 until their 'invasion' in 1979. I recall many westerners who went to Afghanitan in the 70's - Kabul reportedly had an expat community numbering in the thousands. Pot was cheap and the place was a hortbed of intrigue etc but it was still UNDER SOVIET CONTROL!  Then the mujahadeen began terrorising the gov, which reacted viciously, which caused more chaos, which resulted in more bloodshed, until the USSR sent troops to prop up gov. That's when the hell broke loose. I remember some Australian guy saying how he was in Afghanistan (this about 1975 from pakistan, and there was no customs, no nothing) iow, the Soviets were hardly the bad guys. Just like the 'Iron curtain' was forced on europe by allies, who blamed Stalin, the mess in Central Asia was made by US, and not them. Yet we fight the terrorist we, -'charlie wilson'- set up in first place. giggety    (not!)

Fidel

If the Soviets had sent troops marauding in over the borders of Pakistan, it would have started another world war.

[url=http://www.glennsacks.com/us_policy_has.htm]U.S. Policy Has Betrayed Afghan Women for [s]20[/s] 30 Years[/url]

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11279]Afghanistan, Another Untold Story[/url]

kropotkin1951

What I never understand about people like Freakatlast is if you asked them what they would expect of every American if a foreign army invaded it would not be to cooperate with the invaders to make a better country.  I know they would expect that it would not matter whether the invaders were left wing, right wing, Moslem or Christian all true Americans would join in arms to throw the invader out.  I can't believe people like Freak would believe anything else.

But they call citizens of other countries who show the same loyalty to their own nations terrorists.  Bizarro world we live in.

Jingles

The ideology that started this mess:

 

Some guy named Durand had something to do with it.

VanGoghs Ear

Freeatlast and Jingles are just 2 sides of the same coin

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Not really. Look past the flag and the ideology is imperialism.

Frmrsldr

kropotkin1951 wrote:

What I never understand about people like Freakatlast is if you asked them what they would expect of every American if a foreign army invaded it would not be to cooperate with the invaders to make a better country.  I know they would expect that it would not matter whether the invaders were left wing, right wing, Moslem or Christian all true Americans would join in arms to throw the invader out.  I can't believe people like Freak would believe anything else.

But they call citizens of other countries who show the same loyalty to their own nations terrorists.  Bizarro world we live in.

It's called ethnocentrism. Harpo and the Cons war criminals are guilty of the same contadictory and insupportable nonsense.

VanGoghs Ear

What then do you call the soviet occupation of eastern europe, if not imperialism?

Predicting an answer -  I would say -  Is making infrastructural/public service improvments and making a section of the population ok or even happy with a foreign power running things a good enough reason to exuse it?

 

Frmrsldr

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

What then do you call the soviet occupation of eastern europe, if not imperialism?

 

In December 1941, the U.S. naval installation of Pearl Harbor was attacked by Japan in an undeclared act of war. The U.S.A. responded by declaring and waging war against Japan. "Pearl Harbor: Never again."

Earlier, in June 1941, the Soviet Union was invaded by Germany in an undeclared war. The Soviet Union engaged in an allout struggle for its very survival. The people who survived World War II have on their lips and in their hearts the words: "Never again."

Looking back at Pearl Harbor, is it any surprise how Americans reacted when the NYC Trade Towers were attacked on 9/11?

After WW II, the U.S.A. established military bases throughout Western Europe, forced Western European countries to adopt American style imperialist capitalism, and formed NATO in 1949 with the result that America turned Western Europe into an armed camp, fearful of the "spread of communism" and a Soviet "invasion". Looking back at Operation Barbarossa (June 1941) is it any surprise that the Soviet Union reacted in this way to these suspicious and aggressive moves?

kropotkin1951

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

What then do you call the soviet occupation of eastern europe, if not imperialism?

Predicting an answer -  I would say -  Is making infrastructural/public service improvments and making a section of the population ok or even happy with a foreign power running things a good enough reason to exuse it?

 

Imperialism is what I would call it.  Who was your question aimed at?  Your not talking to a mythical poster made of straw are you?

VanGoghs Ear

Thanks Kropotkin - I agree

It was aimed FM - comment # 18

Jingles

The point was that the "mess in Afghanistan" predates the latest occupation and the Soviet occupation both. The problems get their start when European imperialists carved up central Asia for their own Great Game. 

Instead of traditional borders, the people had borders imposed upon them. 

Yet here we are again, with vast armies of European Crusaders occupying a region they themselves destroyed. But these Crusaders are the [i]good[/i] kind, you see. They are on a [b][i]mission[/i][/b]. 

Kinda almost makes you think it was deliberate or something, don't it?

 

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

In December 1941, the U.S. naval installation of Pearl Harbor was attacked by Japan in an undeclared act of war. The U.S.A. responded by declaring and waging war against Japan. "Pearl Harbor: Never again."

 

Actually, the war cry of the US was "Remember Pearl Harbour (as we did the Alamo)."  They even had a song.

 

"Never Again" refers to the Holocaust.

VanGoghs Ear

I agree Jingles imposing artificial borders and creating unnatural countries has created nothing but problems ever since

I'm just reading a book on Genghis Khan right now and one could say he created the modern world - 1 interesting note in the first few pages - a recent study came up with the result that 1 in every 200 humans alive today can be traced back to Genghis Khan.(I hope I got that right, I don't have the book right here in front of me)

 

Frmrsldr

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Actually, the war cry of the US was "Remember Pearl Harbour (as we did the Alamo)."  They even had a song.

"Never Again" refers to the Holocaust.

"Remember Pearl [Harbor]" was during the war.

After the war the sentiment (not actually an objectively spoken or written slogan) "Pearl Harbor: Never again.", referred to the fact that America was blindsided, embarassingly 'caught with its pants down.'

Osama Bin Laden (or whoever was responsible) knew what they were doing when 9/11 was committed. Once again, the U.S.A. was "Pearl Harbored" and nationally embarassed. Until September 2001, the Pentagon justified everything it did with the implied question, "You don't want another Pearl Harbor, do you?"

After September 2001, the Pentagon and Cheney-esque GTMO and Abu Ghraib, etc., torture and War on Terror supporters justify everything they do on 9/11.

In the Soviet Union/Russia, successive governments and the people who went through the war vowed that, "Never again", would they allow such a horrific war that had no regard for human life be fought on Russian and/or "CIS" soil again. It was this mindset that informed everything the Soviet Union did and Russia does internationally ever since the Second World War.

thorin_bane

Something akin to the myth of the Alamo. Not the fact the americans waged another war crudely named the spanish american war( or the rediculous louisana purchase) against naitve and mexican territory. Remember the Alamo (Even if we started it) love how the have re-envisioned history so much

Jingles

"Remember Pearl Harbor"

Ah yes, Pearl Harbor. Located in beautiful US "possession" of Hawaii, the island invaded and occupied but the US, the people all but erradicated, their culture rendered into Tiki Torches at Twilight, turned into a massive naval and air base to project American imperial domination over the Pacific? Yup. How could the Japanese do such a terrible thing to a such a peaceful place?

Did you know that super thermite residue was found in the hulls of the Arizona, and that the battleships sunk faster than gravity? Wink

Noah_Scape

So thats it? The ideology that started the mess in Afghanistan is "Expanding their sphere of influence", a.k.a. "Imperialism", by the USA and Russia/USSR, with earlier minor roles of the Brits and European powers?

Does that in any way point to a way out? What will happen in 2011, or 2012, when the troops start leaving?  

 Or, Mr FinallyFree, is the point that "brutality" is the whole problem, so foreigners just need to learn to invade other nations in nicer ways?

   Ending prohibition would remove a major incentive to control Afghanistan - the $Billions in opium trade dollars. Corruption of Afghan politicians would be reduced too, if prohibition was ended and the poppy crop "legitimised".

 

welder welder's picture

Communism is bad...It's a horrible,dehumanizing ideology that only kept what power it had over people by intimidation and death.

 

It is leading Fascism by a slender thread,in the scumbag category...Fascism...The ideology of choice by the US government,when dealing with small countries that could be used to implement the Trueman Doctrine...

I have no use for the extreme left...people like Stalin,Mao Tse Tung,Pol Pot,...etc.Just as I have no use for the extreme right..People like Adolph Hitler,Benito Mussolini,Francisco Franco,Oliviera Salazar,General Augusto Pinochet,Robert D'Aubuisson etc...

 

Why anyone would any of these bloodthirsty,muderous thugs in any sort of reverence is beyond me???

 

They've done nothing but consolidate power through mass murder,and for the most part,both ideologies are on the scrap heap of history...

RosaL

So what ideology do you subscribe to? I'm having a hard time thinking of one with a really good track record, if it's ever held power. 

welder welder's picture

Neither of the two with the largest body counts...

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I think the Nordic European countries set an example that would be a good goal to work toward.

RosaL

RevolutionPlease wrote:

I think the Nordic European countries set an example that would be a good goal to work toward.

 

They have in fact supported capitalist imperialism, which has a pretty poor record.

RosaL

welder wrote:

Neither of the two with the largest body counts...

 

And those would be??? (Let me guess: liberal democracy and european imperialism? theism, perhaps?)  But why be coy? What ideology do you adhere to?

welder welder's picture

The ones with the largest body counts in the 20th century would be extreme versions of right and left authoritarianism...It matters not who the puppetmasters were...

Why does it interest you what my personal ideology is?

I'll give you a hint...It does'nt jive with right wing dilly bars at a place like Free Dominion,and it greatly annoys the cadre of leftist bedwetters here.

Perhaps that makes me the ultimate centrist!If I piss off ideological reaffirmationists on their own turf,then I'm doing something right!

kropotkin1951

So the real question is do you include the American empire in that list. 

RosaL

welder wrote:

Why does it interest you what my personal ideology is?

 

 

You seem to be saying that some ideologies are by their very nature prone to atrocities. My question, then, is what ideology do you recommend? I'm asking you to defend something as well as attack. I'm not asking for your address and phone number; I'm trying to pursue an argument. (I don't see your ideology as "personal".) It's not much of an argument if you won't state a position. 

kropotkin1951

Oh come on Rosal if he commits to anything definitive he wouldn't get to bob and weave around the tough questions.

welder welder's picture

RosaL wrote:

welder wrote:

Why does it interest you what my personal ideology is?

 

 

You seem to be saying that some ideologies are by their very nature prone to atrocities. My question, then, is what ideology do you recommend? I'm asking you to defend something as well as attack. I'm not asking for your address and phone number; I'm trying to pursue an argument. (I don't see your ideology as "personal".) It's not much of an argument if you won't state a position. 

 

No...What I think is if you combine extreme authoritarian ideologies with saddistic,sociopathic leaders hellbent on the consolidation of power by whatever means necessary,you have a recipe for disaster and mass death.History is fairly explicit about that...

As for me,all I can say is that there is no political party in Canada that accurately reflects my personal ideology.I lean to the left on some issues,I lean to the right on others.I don't blindly subscribe to everything on the left because I don't agree with everything on the left.I don't subscribe to everything on the right because I don't agree with everything on the right...I suppose we could go issue by issue,but that would take alot of time,would'nt it?

RosaL

welder wrote:

As for me,all I can say is that there is no political party in Canada that accurately reflects my personal ideology.I lean to the left on some issues,I lean to the right on others.I don't blindly subscribe to everything on the left because I don't agree with everything on the left.I don't subscribe to everything on the right because I don't agree with everything on the right...I suppose we could go issue by issue,but that would take alot of time,would'nt it?

Surely you have some kind of political philosophy that underlies and informs your positions on the various issues. 

welder welder's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So the real question is do you include the American empire in that list. 

 

Well,I don't have a hate on for the USA itself.I think it's Declaration of Independence is one of the most important documents of the last 1000 years.It's right up there with Martin Luther's Protestations and The Magna Carta.The pity is that it has been abused and misinterpreted by both the right and the left over the years.For all its faults,and there are more thana few,The United States of America is still an admirable country by itself.

 

It's foreign policy over the last 100 years,or so,is an entirely other matter.There's no question that it has fomented wars,insurrections,and,assassinations all over the globe.It has propped up Fascist thugs all though Central and South America under the guise of freedom and democracy.It's never beeen about that,it's about the consolidation of power.During the Cold War,this was readily apparent.That's not to absolve the Soviets and their equally disgusting foreign policy.They did the exact same thing,in many of the exact same places...They just did'nt win,mainly because thier closed economy imploded.The Soviets wanted empire also,they just lost...

welder welder's picture

RosaL wrote:

welder wrote:

As for me,all I can say is that there is no political party in Canada that accurately reflects my personal ideology.I lean to the left on some issues,I lean to the right on others.I don't blindly subscribe to everything on the left because I don't agree with everything on the left.I don't subscribe to everything on the right because I don't agree with everything on the right...I suppose we could go issue by issue,but that would take alot of time,would'nt it?

Surely you have some kind of political philosophy that underlies and informs your positions on the various issues. 

 

Yes..It's called lifes experience...

RosaL

welder wrote:

RosaL wrote:

Surely you have some kind of political philosophy that underlies and informs your positions on the various issues. 

Yes..It's called lifes experience...

 

No it's not. I have life experience too and I disagree with you on many points.

welder welder's picture

RosaL wrote:

welder wrote:

Well,I don't have a hate on for the USA itself.I think it's Declaration of Independence is one of the most important documents of the last 1000 years.It's right up there with Martin Luther's Protestations and The Magna Carta.The pity is that it has been abused and misinterpreted by both the right and the left over the years.For all its faults,and there are more thana few,The United States of America is still an admirable country by itself.

It's foreign policy over the last 100 years,or so,is an entirely other matter.There's no question that it has fomented wars,insurrections,and,assassinations all over the globe.It has propped up Fascist thugs all though Central and South America under the guise of freedom and democracy.It's never beeen about that,it's about the consolidation of power.During the Cold War,this was readily apparent.That's not to absolve the Soviets and their equally disgusting foreign policy.They did the exact same thing,in many of the exact same places...They just did'nt win,mainly because thier closed economy imploded.The Soviets wanted empire also,they just lost...

OK, so you're a liberal (in the philosophical sense rather than the debased and popular sense). You say that the founding ideals of America are wonderful but the behaviour is about as bad as that of the Soviets. (The ideals have been abused and misinterpreted.) Why then can someone not make similar statements about the founding ideals of marxism (or "communism")? 

I suppose they could...Marxism is like alot of things...It looks good on paper,but in practice,it's a total disaster...Kinda like the Edsel!!!

 

I've got an ideabecause pinpointing personal ideologies can be a little difficult.

We'll take a test!Now I know these things can be a little inaccurate,but it can be a good starting point.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I'll take it...You take it,and anyone reading this can take it,and we'll compare numbers...

welder welder's picture

RosaL wrote:

welder wrote:

RosaL wrote:

Surely you have some kind of political philosophy that underlies and informs your positions on the various issues. 

Yes..It's called lifes experience...

 

No it's not. I have life experience too and I disagree with you on many points.

Great!

 

Is'nt that the beauty of personal freedom?

RosaL

welder wrote:

Well,I don't have a hate on for the USA itself.I think it's Declaration of Independence is one of the most important documents of the last 1000 years.It's right up there with Martin Luther's Protestations and The Magna Carta.The pity is that it has been abused and misinterpreted by both the right and the left over the years.For all its faults,and there are more thana few,The United States of America is still an admirable country by itself.

It's foreign policy over the last 100 years,or so,is an entirely other matter.There's no question that it has fomented wars,insurrections,and,assassinations all over the globe.It has propped up Fascist thugs all though Central and South America under the guise of freedom and democracy.It's never beeen about that,it's about the consolidation of power.During the Cold War,this was readily apparent.That's not to absolve the Soviets and their equally disgusting foreign policy.They did the exact same thing,in many of the exact same places...They just did'nt win,mainly because thier closed economy imploded.The Soviets wanted empire also,they just lost...

OK, so you're a liberal (in the philosophical sense rather than the debased and popular sense). You say that the founding ideals of America are wonderful but the behaviour is about as bad as that of the Soviets. (The ideals have been abused and misinterpreted.) Why then can someone not make similar statements about the founding ideals of marxism (or "communism"): sometimes they behaved as badly as capitalists, the ideas were abused and misinterpreted, etc.

All this suggests to me that your argument isn't really historical at all: it's that the declaration of independence is good and the communist manifesto is bad. I'm just trying to clarify things so we can proceed. 

RosaL

welder wrote:

Is'nt that the beauty of personal freedom?

No, it's a refusal to examine your beliefs and opinions or think about important issues. 

welder welder's picture

RosaL wrote:

welder wrote:

Is'nt that the beauty of personal freedom?

No, it's a refusal to examine your beliefs and opinions or think about important issues. 

 

Dead wrong and entirely presumptous...

 

I examine my beliefs all the time and think about important issues all the time..I'm just not beholden to any specific ideology...

 

By the way...

Economic Left/Right  -6.62

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -1.44

So,according to that test,I lean solidly to the left economically,and I'm basically slightly libertarian in my Social Libertarian/Authoritarian outlook....

RosaL

welder wrote:

Dead wrong and entirely presumptous...

 

I examine my beliefs all the time and think about important issues all the time..I'm just not beholden to any specific ideology...

If you have no political philosophy (that's not the same as being "beholden to an ideology") then you haven't done enough thinking about politics to be expressing an opinion on issues like this. However, I think your statements about the American Declaration of Independence more or less answered my question. 

Pages

Topic locked