Cuba privatizes hairstyling

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Fri, 2010-04-16 20:43

kropotkin1951

The biggest problem is Cuba does not recognize the inherent human rights of corporations. In a real democracy, like america, corporations are afforded all the rights of a person. And a service is not a service unless it is delivered under the auspices of the invisible hand. Any joining together of humans except in the corporate form is anti-democratic.

Sven do you know anything about their political system at all?

Their political system seems to have outlets for venting displeasure with any policy of the government. Of course the idea of replacing the whole constitution of the nation is not open for discussion. But then arguing that America or Canada should become an Islamic theocracy is not open for debate in either of our countries. The problem is that some people refuse to recognize that america is an imperial power whose economic clout comes from stealing other peoples resources not some inherent greatness of the american political and economic system.

I'd love to see someone do a study that showed two poor neighbourhoods, one in Cuba and one in the US. Compare and contrast the economic and social effect of the two systems and then ask the people who live in them which system they would prefer to live under.

But a fairer study is between Cuba and its neighbours, other than the empire. Maybe a poll of people from several of the island states that are democracies and capitalist to see how they view Cuba.

Fri, 2010-04-16 23:37

#103

Sven

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I'd love to see someone do a study that showed two poor neighbourhoods, one in Cuba and one in the US.

How about comparing an average Cuban neighborhood (which would be, essentially, the same thing as a "poor" Cuban neighborhood) with an average American neighborhood (which would not be a "poor" American neighborhood)?

Fri, 2010-04-16 23:40

#104

Sven

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Of course the idea of replacing the whole constitution of the nation is not open for discussion.

How about just having the right to kick the ruling party out of office? Would that be "open for discussion"?

Fri, 2010-04-16 23:44

#105

Sven

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Of course the idea of replacing the whole constitution of the nation is not open for discussion.

How about just a right of the Cuban people, in opposition to the will of Castro, to merely amend the Cuban constitution?

Would that be "open for discussion"?

Fri, 2010-04-16 23:49

#106

Sven

I've got a better idea yet, kropotkin1951: Why not just leave the Communist dictatorship in place but eliminate entirely any government restrictions on an individual Cuban's right to leave Cuba at any time an individual wishes to leave (without any adverse consequences to the individual's remaining family)?

I would call that: Huge human rights progress.

Do you think that would be a good idea?

Fri, 2010-04-16 23:50

#107

Ken Burch

It's nothing to be this obsessed about. Some people would leave, and in six months they'd go back.

Cuba is not the worst place in the world, Sven.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:01

#108

RosaL

Sven wrote:

How about just a right of the Cuban people, in opposition to the will of Castro, to merely amend the Cuban constitution?

Would that be "open for discussion"?

From above: If I can find enough people who want to be able to have slaves, does a society that disallows slavery become one that denies liberty? Was the question of slavery ever legitimate? If so, were societies that prohibited it (at that time) oppressive? If capitalism really is a bad thing, must every country reach that conclusion at the same time, societies that reach (and act on) that conclusion "prematurely" being oppressive?

This has a bearing on the question of whether disallowing amendments to the constitution that would allow or implement the reintroduction of capitalism is an evil infringement on liberty

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:02

#109

Sven

Ken Burch wrote:

Some people would leave, and in six months they'd go back.

It would be nice if the Cuban people had the option of leaving, so we could test your assertion.

But, alas, we cannot.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:06

#110

RosaL

Why is it worse to keep people in than to keep them out? (But please respond to my other argument first.)

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:16

#111

Sven

RosaL wrote:

Why is it worse to keep people in than to keep them out?

Canada would likely prohibit the mass migration of 40 million Americans into your country (Canada's right to keep others out of the country is an element of Canada's sovereignty).

But, Canada wouldn't prohibit you from leaving Canada any time you damned well pleased (you're not a prisoner of Canada).

Would it make better sense to you if those policies were reversed?

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:27

#112

Ken Burch

Sven wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Some people would leave, and in six months they'd go back.

It would be nice if the Cuban people had the option of leaving, so we could test your assertion.

But, alas, we cannot.

In any case, it doesn't matter. You seem to assume they'd ALL go, and that nobody there backs the system they live under. You are looking at the matter, in short, with bourgeois American eyes. Americans are into making money and buying "things". You assume, for some twisted reason, that everyone else is into that too.

I agree that people should be able to leave any country. But really, why is that such a big deal to you? Why can't you just accept that Cuba is what it is and that no one from outside has any right to try to change it(especially no American, since we forfeited any right to have an opinion about Cuba after the Bay of Pigs).

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:34

#113

George Victor

Sven, if you were concerned about "freedom" beyond your pathetic and maudlin attempts at playing defender of the constitution, you would explore the ways that your own country has deviated from Jefferson's understanding of the ways in which a society stays principled and free, rather than comparing it with little Cuba. Screw up your courage and try it, sometime. Take on a real adversary, for once - the corrupted leavings of a "late Roman" polity at war with itself but finding "the enemy" beyond its borders. Walt Kelly's Pogo knew better, well before you came on the scene.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:39

#114

Ken Burch

Sven, you and I are Yanks. Shouldn't we be more concerned with what's happening in OUR country? Why is Cuba such a fixation with you, anyway?

It's not like the place is Hoxha's Albania.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:42

#115

Sven

Ken Burch wrote:

You seem to assume they'd ALL go, and that nobody there backs the system they live under.

You are reading things into what I wrote which aren't there. I am certain that many people would like to stay there...and live under the current system. But, there is some portion of the population that would love to leave...and permanently. But, they cannot. They are prisoners in their own country.

Ken Burch wrote:

I agree that people should be able to leave any country. But really, why is that such a big deal to you?

Many people view Cuba as a paragon of political nirvana.

But, when people in a country are prisoners of that country, it's an important example of why Cuba is nowhere near political nirvana.

Now, I agree with you that outsiders should have no say in how Cuban society is run (too bad that approach isn't followed more closely by many of my Canadian friends with regard to their view about how America should be run). Yet, it's still worth shining a bright light on the fact that Cubans are not free to leave their country whenever they want for whatever reason they want, in case someone has the brilliant idea that Cuba's system is worth repeating elsewhere.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:47

#116

Sven

By the way, does anyone know where our Fidel is? I haven't seen his name pop up here for some time...

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:54

#117

George Victor

Yours is not a "bright light" shining on Cuba, Sven. It is, rather, a mirror on your narcissistic society.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:57

#118

Ken Burch

Sven wrote:

By the way, does anyone know where our Fidel is? I haven't seen his name pop up here for some time...

Fidel is on suspension for a few more days, for reasons I am not privy to.

Sat, 2010-04-17 00:58

#119

Ken Burch

Even those who defend the Cuban Revolution here, Sven, don't see the place as political nirvana(most people on the left don't see ANYWHERE as politican nirvana). They just don't want the Miami Gusanos coming back to rule the place again(and remember, when their man Batista ran things, it was just as repressive as Cuba is now, the only difference being that the rich were able to INFLICT the repression).

And I seriously doubt that anybody wants Canada or the U.S. to be run exactly as Cuba is. Defending certain achievements of the Revolution(the magnificent healthcare and educational systems the country has developed)hardly means defense of the whole system.

You'd likely see more political openness in Cuba if the U.S. were to accept that it had no right to try to re-impose capitalism and white dominance on Cuba(half the reason the Miami exiles left was that most of them were white, at least at the start, and Fidel was putting their kids in the same classrooms with black Cuban kids). If the U.S. were to say "we accept that it's not our place to tell Cuba what to do", I'm sincerely convinced that half the repression on the island would be gone overnight.

Finally, perhaps I read some things into what you wrote. But your posts do contain a pretty consistent "we all KNOW" quality about them, as if it goes without saying that certain things would inevitably happen if certain other things happened.

I think that people in Cuba were horrified by what they saw happen in Eastern Europe in 1989. They were glad about "freedom of speech", for whatever it was worth, but they were sickened by the fact that the Western sharks swam in and swallowed everything. The people in the streets in Prague, Warsaw, East Berlin, Leipzig, et.al., wanted the Stalinist dinosaurs to fall. They didn't want capitalism. They voted for capitalist parties that were committed to austerity because-well, that's all the parties there WERE to vote for(even the "former Communist" parties committed to capitalism and austerity). The actual wishes of the people of those countries were never respected, and today, those people are far from being masters in their own houses. It's hard to believe that Cubans would want the post-1989 Eastern European future for themselves. If the Americans could only accept this, things would change for the better.

Sat, 2010-04-17 01:10

#120

Sven

Ken Burch wrote:

If the U.S. were to say "we accept that it's not our place to tell Cuba what to do", I'm sincerely convinced that half the repression on the island would be gone overnight.

I would certainly like to see a dramatic change in the American foreign policy towards Cuba. The economic sanctions have been in place long past the date when they should have been lifted, assuming they should even have been imposed in the first place. Unfortunately, our political leaders (especially the Republicans, but the Democrats as well) seem to be deathly afraid of offending Cuban exiles in Miami (much like both parties seem beholdened to Israel -- although, with regard to Israel, I do welcome Obama's tentative steps in the other direction).

The rest of your post was thoughtful and interesting as well. Thanks for your post.

Sat, 2010-04-17 01:14

#121

Sven

Ken Burch wrote:

Sven wrote:

By the way, does anyone know where our Fidel is? I haven't seen his name pop up here for some time...

Fidel is on suspension for a few more days, for reasons I am not privy to.

Suspending Fidel seems like throwing a harmless, but sometimes cranky, neighbor down the street in jail for being, well, cranky!! I probably disagree with almost every political view he holds but I rather enjoy his feisty spirit...and his sense of humor. Hope he's back soon...

Sat, 2010-04-17 01:59

#122

Cueball

Sheese. 120 posts wasted discussing the implications of the privatization of a tiny service sector industry probably worth no more than a couple of million dollars annually, in a very small Caribbean country. I wonder if Cuban's are paying as much attention to the possible privatization of ski hills by the city of Toronto?

Sat, 2010-04-17 02:25

#123

Ken Burch

Continued here...because this thread is at 121 posts and still has a lot of split ends to cut off..I mean, tie up:

http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/more-privatized-...

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