Can a car drive through a brick wall as quickly and smoothly as through an open gate?
Sat, 2010-05-01 18:39
#52
Sat, 2010-05-01 23:33
#53
Fidel, I read your post. To me, it translates as, "Men, men, men, men, other men, different men, men."
And? In what way does this help the truth movement within the larger anti-war protest side of things?
If we accept that "al-Qa'eda" planned and executed 9/11 from start to finish, then will it not be that much harder to defend Muslims everywhere against NATO aggression? I don't think that validating the rightwing phony war on terror is what we ought to be doing,
1. Many of us on the left refuse to believe in al-Qa'eda bogeymen or any other fairy tales without legal proof
2. It's the belief of many on the left that 9/11 was just another Gulf of Tonkin false flag army intelligence operation. Just another [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident]Gleiwitz incident[/url] used to wage a very profitable but nonetheless phony war of terror against a sovereign nation, Afghanistan, and which like Iraq, had absolutely nothing to do with perpetrating 9/11 terror nor harboring the CIA's intelligence assets, "al-Qa'eda." Therefore,
3. This ongoing phony war against terrorism is actually a cover for US-led NATO aggression on the other side of the world and US meddling in Afghanistan going on 30 years.
We don't believe that the US Army or CIA is interested in combating terrorism at all. This is naked colder war aggression against Central Asian states and with the US now openly threatening to attack Iran and illegally so according to world laws established since the end of WW II. We can't afford to approve of a phony global war on terror that has the potential to lead to global thermonuclear war between East and West. And, in fact, we are not and are taking every opportunity to speak out against the Bush era lies and deception continuing today under the Obamacrats and collaborating NATO nations.
Sun, 2010-05-02 00:23
#54
writer
Men, men, men, men, men.
You really don't get it, do you, Fidel? Hold forth and dominate, but do it for righteous reasons, my man!
Sun, 2010-05-02 00:29
#55
writer
It would help the truth movement and the anti-war movement a lot of good to understand - and understand deeply - how harmful male domination is. And how those movements play into it, or resist it. Reinforce it or subvert it.
It would do men in those movements a lot of good to recognize what in their own behaviour is like that of the men they obsess about. And address their own need to dominate, control, belittle and speak for.
Truth starts with you.
Sun, 2010-05-02 00:59
#56
I am not trying to belittle anyone in this thread. And if it seems that I am, then I surely do it unconsciously. Please forgive me if that is the case.
But we're talking about a country that has worked diligently to cause the proliferation of a kind of radical, militant Islam that is dominated by men in other parts of the world. Some of the people in power and running things in Afghanistan today had no political support base in the 1980s and 90s. And it is because the Afghan drug lords had no popular support base in Afghanistan that the American CIA and their Saudi and Pakistani friends believed rightly that they could control them. Militant Islam and drug addiction were not issues in 1970s Afghanistan and Iraq. But since the CIA and their friends took control of things over the last 30 years, drug addictions and grinding poverty and terrorism loom large for desperately poor women and children who take the brunt of the violence and general all around lack of basic human rights in Central Asia and other countries where radical Islamic leaders have risen to the forefront of politics as a result of the actions of the so-called western world democratizers. Militant Islam represents the greatest danger to women's rights and basic human rights in general on the other side of the world, and it's largely a result of US and British and Saudi imperialist foreign policies since the cold war era and continuing today.
[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,591827,00.html]Bin Laden Surprised By 9/11 Retaliation?[/url]
According to Fox News reports, Osama bin Laden was surprised by the vicious empire's reprisals for the false flag terrorist attack on 9/11. Does that sound believable to you? They were clever enough to fool the largest nuclear-armed national security state in world history, but they failed to realize what the consequences would be? Do you believe that?
Writer, a famous woman was interviewed by David Frost not long before she was murdered, Benazir Bhutto. Benazir Bhutto said that Osama bin Laden is dead, and that she knew who ordered his death. If this woman was telling the truth in the weeks before she was murdered by militant Islamists, then that would necessarily mean that Osama bin Laden exists only as a bogeyman used to instill fear in the minds of millions of Americans for reasons we should probably understand why at this point. What do you think about that?
Sun, 2010-05-02 01:08
#57
... And address their own need to dominate, control, belittle and speak for.Truth starts with you.
But now you're talking past us and over us as if to belittle us for our efforts in understanding the truth. And that's not a very feminine characteristic imo. People everywhere want to be treated with dignity and respect including those of us interested in discovering truth, and including ordinary men, women and children living a hellish existence on the other side of the world where mainly white western men have created situations of chaos and desperation for millions.
Sun, 2010-05-02 01:46
#58
writer, half the threads on Babble are dominated by men. Where's your righteous indignation in those threads?
Men and women are equally welcome to post here, but if you're going to post bogus, bullshit articles which use (and perpetuate) false information about the towers' construction, it's not going to fly here, OK? Whether you're a woman or a man, posting outdated, discredited information on these issues will be called on immediately.
If you actually cared about the topic and didn't just post that article in some attempt to "debunk" the "conspiracy nutters" then you would have known that the information in it is incorrect and that not even NIST is pretending that the buildings were essentially "hollow tubes". It would be nice if people here really would update themselves on this topic instead of wilfully or blindly feeding into the general and pervasive ignorance on it,
Sun, 2010-05-02 01:47
#59
Cueball
It was so good the first 2 times, why don't you post it again... 
Sun, 2010-05-02 01:58
#60
oops. double post.
Sun, 2010-05-02 02:05
#61
What I want to know is, why would any feminist want to believe the official conspiracy theory and product of a group of war criminals and mainly white men who the Obama administration continue to insulate from justice?
Hitler was the biggest liar of the last century and was a white male.
Crazy George Bush II and his government of war criminals are the biggest liars of this century thus far, whether it was US government sponsored climate science denial or bad scientific reporting on WTC collapse theory by a handful of NIST scientists afraid for their jobs and pensions. And they are all privileged white males who've never carried a lunch pail or brown paper bag to work in their leisurely lives.
Of all the white privileged males to choose to believe have told the public the truth, why start with crazy George Bush and warmongering plutocrats in the most recent Republican government? I don't get that. NIST has admitted they can't fully explain the collapse of three WTC buildings. And that's because they know there are real issues with their bad science.
Sun, 2010-05-02 08:08
#62
writer
jas, you might have noticed that I haven't been active on babble for some months. The way men dominate is a big part of why I finally had enough. You haven't seen me post on many other threads recently because I haven't posted, period. Before I left, I posted about my concerns. Many times.
The whole point of my link was simply to respond to your "everyone agrees" statement. Not everyone will, ever. Simple.
Fidel, there you go, telling me what I believe, and who I believe. Stop it. Stop it. Just stop it.
Sun, 2010-05-02 11:48
#63
Perhaps we can move this in the general direction of topic of discussion at some point. I've tried. Is there someone else up there we could talk to?
Sun, 2010-05-02 14:52
#64
The whole point of my link was simply to respond to your "everyone agrees" statement. Not everyone will, ever. Simple.
The question I asked was whether we can all agree that objects moving through other objects will experience a slowdown or a halt in their momentum. Are you suggesting that we don't all agree on this very basic physical concept? Are you suggesting that a car driving through a brick wall will not encounter any resistance from the brick wall?
The link you posted uses incorrect information about the towers' construction. Moreover, if the authors of that article are wanting to suggest that cars driving through brick walls, or cinder blocks falling on top of other cinder blocks will experience no resistance in their movement toward their destination then I would suggest that those authors are not speaking from a scientifically valid premise.
Sun, 2010-05-02 15:21
#65
writer
A car driving through a brick wall isn't a plane going into a building. Or a building collapsing. A car driving through a brick wall isn't ten floors collapsing on top of remaining floors. One is a horizontal dynamic. The other is vertical. These have a different relationship with gravity.
An article that was written about the collapse of the buildings indicates that momentum was slowed by 2 seconds. You and others dispute that article.
I am not one obsessed with how the buildings collapsed. I am one who wants men to stop dominating, controlling. I am one who wants us to consume less. I am one who wants men to stop making war.
Here I see a mulberry bush. I see some dancing around it.
This is my last post on this or any other related "truther" thread. I see the same controlling impulses, black-and-white thinking, with us / against us thinking here that have been far too familiar in my life.
Sun, 2010-05-02 18:41
#66
Cueball
The whole problem with leveling the entire responsibility for all of the bad in the world upon men, is that it removes agency from women. If one says that men are responsible for all bad, therefore one also has to accept that men are responsible for all good, since women are powerless in the equation. I enjoy and agree with many of the things you say Writer, but I think this analysis is really lacking: Indeed, it is what you are calling "black and white thinking". Women are a functioning part of the equation of social intercourse, enablers and participants. To what extent may be arguable, but just to lay the responsibility for human suffering wholesale upon men essentially strips women of their place as actors in the real world.
Sun, 2010-05-02 20:40
#67
writer
Don't know who you are addressing re: "all of the bad in the world". Some phantom. Not me.
Sun, 2010-05-02 22:14
#68
Cueball
Then maybe the issue isn't: "Men, men, men."
Sun, 2010-05-02 22:48
#69
remind
Ya, actually it is....your post 65 is lacking in accuracy and content, plus extremely short sighted. or should I say bias sighted.
Sun, 2010-05-02 22:51
#70
Cueball
No. Actually, I think post 65 is totally accurate. I think the whole idea that war, violence and conflict can be sourced to patriarchy (the nice way of saying men) is just a fucking cop out.
Sun, 2010-05-02 22:54
#71
Maysie
Actually, patriarchy isn't about "men" but how a society is organized and structured.
Under patriarchy, in the social context, everyone (men and women) is taught to value men (their ideas, thoughts, etc) over women, girls and boys.
Sun, 2010-05-02 22:59
#72
Whoever did them, the 9/11 attacks helped to empower women.
[Image of torture at abu Ghraib deleted by Maysie on May 4. Why? Irrelevant, and further dehumanizing a torture victim just to make a cheap point about an incorrect idea of "female empowerment"]
Sun, 2010-05-02 23:07
#73
Maysie
al Q, to compare the act of being an oppressive torturer with empowerment is beyond offensive.
Sun, 2010-05-02 23:09
#74
Cueball
Actually, patriarchy isn't about "men" but how a society is organized and structured.
Under patriarchy, in the social context, everyone (men and women) is taught to value men (their ideas, thoughts, etc) over women, girls and boys.
Ok. That is more accurate and reasonable. However, what we have here is something else. We have: "Men, men, men." It's a massive cop out.
Mon, 2010-05-03 00:33
#75
[url=http://www.justacitizen.com/]Sibel Edmonds[/url] has to be the most muzzled woman in U.S. history.She's made a number of startling claims, but the one that grabs my attention is where she says that the US Feds have tried to cover up an entire organizational layer within Al Qaeda. From www.911truth.org:
As we approach another 911 anniversary, it's time we learnt:
1) Who are these mid and high-level al-Qaida operatives?
2) What role did they play in planning 911?
3) What operational support did they provide?
4) Why they are still roaming free today?
5) Why did the US authorities continually exclude key participants from the official narrative?
Mon, 2010-05-03 00:56
#76
A car driving through a brick wall isn't a plane going into a building. Or a building collapsing. A car driving through a brick wall isn't ten floors collapsing on top of remaining floors. One is a horizontal dynamic. The other is vertical. These have a different relationship with gravity.
An article that was written about the collapse of the buildings indicates that momentum was slowed by 2 seconds. You and others dispute that article.
writer, you're completely confusing the principle that is being highlighted here. Whether something is being propelled by an engine or by gravity, it doesn't matter. It will still be slowed. down. by something in its path.
The article you cited said that the buildings are "95% air" and didn't have a core structure of concrete and steel. Which is false. There's nothing more to be said about that. Who even cares if the authors think that 80 and 90 floors of "95% air" would produce all of 2 seconds of resistance to the fabled descent of the top block of floors. Two ridiculous notions do not add up to one credible notion. I don't know who the authors are, but they're either fakes or flakes or quacks.
The rest of your argument is just derailment. To complain about the tone or manner of debate here as some kind of argument against investigating who was responsible for the murders of the people who died in this event and the ones who are still dying from it, is disingenuous and borders on offensive.
And al-Q, your post is unbelievably stupid and offensive. "Oh yeah. Women are just as brutal as men. See?" Could a mod please take that picture down?
Mon, 2010-05-03 01:27
#77
Yes, Writer, there are different dynamics at work with horizontal and vertical collisions. With veritical collisions as a result of downward descent, gravity is a significant additional factor. But conservation of energy and laws of motion still apply. Non-truthers seem to want to recognize motion and energy wrt the planes slamming into the towers, but not when it comes to describing the dispersal of energy in pulverizing concrete floors on the way down. And one engineer and first responder to ground zero described what others stated they saw, which were massive steel beams in the rubble that appeared to have been partially vaporized. Flames are not hot enough to vaporize steel. But military grade nano-thermite could do what first responders and emergency workers described seeing. None of that was mentioned in the official government conspiracy report. Imagine that appointed members of the Warren Commission on the assassination of JFK had stated publicly that they were lied to and key evidence witheld by the military, CIA, FBI, and members of the cosmetic government in Washington. There was only one person killed that day in Dallas, and yet there were subsequent investigations, the last of which concluded that Oswald probably did not act alone. 9/11 reeks of cover up a lot moreso, and there is a concerted effort to prevent a legitimate and transparent inquiry from happening.
9/11 resulted in war and aggression perpetrated against sovereign countries that had nothing to do with 9/11. This is actually a matter for the World Court not another hand-picked bipartisan panel of commissioners who stated that the investigation was seriously compromised from the start. Imagine that there were no Nuremberg trials. The world might never have discovered that the Gleiwitz incident was actually a series of false flag terrorist operations along the Polish border and used as the basis for Nazi Germany attacking and invading Poland.
Mon, 2010-05-03 02:41
#78
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
Daniel B. Barnum, B.Arch, FAIA – Fellow, American Institute of Architects. Over forty years experience in the practice of architecture. Experience covers all aspects of planning, design, construction technology and project management for a wide range of commercial, institutional, religious and residential projects. His projects have been widely published and have received design awards from AIA. Member and former Vice President of AIA Houston and Founder and Chair of the Houston AIA Residential Architecture Committee, Chair of the Urban Design Committee, and Director for Urban Issues. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"I have known from day-one that the buildings were imploded and that they could not and would not have collapsed from the damage caused by the airplanes that ran into them."
Mon, 2010-05-03 02:42
#79
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
David Paul Helpern, M.Arch, FAIA – Fellow, American Institute of Architects. Founder, Helpern Architects, a leading-edge architectural design firm for educational institutions at all levels, from elementary schools to universities. Clients include a long list of prominent cultural and faith-based organizations, as well as corporate and hospitality-industry clients. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The speed and symmetry of the collapses is not consistent with the damage. A new investigation is needed."
Mon, 2010-05-03 02:49
#80
Hugo Bachmann, PhD – Professor Emeritus and former Chairman of the Department of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Author and co-author of Erdbebenbemessung von Stahlbetonhochbauten (Seismic Analysis of Concrete Reinforced Structures) (1990), Vibration Problems in Structures: Practical Guidelines (1995), Biege- und Schubversuche an teilweise vorgespannten Leichtbetonbalken (Structural Analysis of Linked Concrete Beams) (1998), Hochbau für Ingenieure. Eine Einführung (Structural Construction for Engineers. An introduction) (2001), Erdbebensicherung von Bauwerken (Earthquake-proofing Buildings) (2002).
-
Tages Anzeiger Article 9/9/06: "In my opinion the building WTC 7 was, with great probability, professionally demolished," says Hugo Bachmann, Emeritus ETH [Swiss Federal Institute of Technology] - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction. And also Jörg Schneider, likewise emeritus ETH - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction, interprets the few available video recordings as evidence that "the building WTC 7 was with great probability demolished."
Mon, 2010-05-03 02:50
#81
Scott C. Grainger, BS CE, PE – Licensed Professional Civil Engineer and/or Fire Protection Engineer in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming. Owner of Grainger Consulting, Inc., a fire protection engineering firm (23 years). Former Chairman, Arizona State Fire Code Committee. Former President of the Arizona Chapter of the Society of Fire Protection Engineers. Current Member of the Forensic Sciences Committee and the Fire Standards Committee of ASTM International (formerly American Society for Testing and Materials ). Senior Member, National Academy of Forensic Engineers. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"Approximately 50% of my work is forensic. I am licensed in 9 States. In addition to my forensic work, a good portion of my work is in the design of structural fireproofing systems.
All three [WTC] collapses were very uniform in nature. Natural collapses due to unplanned events are not uniform."
Mon, 2010-05-03 02:56
#82
Danny Jowenko – Proprietor, Jowenko Explosieve Demolitie B.V., a European demolition and construction company, with offices in the Netherlands. Founded 1980, Jowenko Explosieve Demolitie is certified and holds permits to comply with the Dutch Explosives for Civil Use Act and the German Explosives Act. Jowenko's explosives engineers also hold the German Certificate of Qualifications and the European Certificate for Shotfiring issued by The European Federation of Explosive Engineers.
- Telephone interview with Jeff Hill 2/22/07:
Jeff Hill: I was just wondering real quickly, I know you had commented on World Trade Center Building 7 before.
Danny Jowenko: Yes, that's right.
Jeff Hill: And I've come to my conclusions, too, that it couldn't have came down by fire.
Danny Jowenko: No, it -- absolutely not.
Jeff Hill: Are you still sticking by your comments where you say it must have been a controlled demolition?
Danny Jowenko: Absolutely.
Jeff Hill: Yes? So, you as being a controlled demolitions expert, you've looked at the building, you've looked at the video and you've determined with your expertise that --
Danny Jowenko: I looked at the drawings, the construction and it couldn't be done by fire. So, no, absolutely not.
Jeff Hill: OK, 'cause I was reading on the Internet, people were asking about you and they said, I wonder -- I heard something that Danny Jowenko retracted his statement of what he said earlier about World Trade Center 7 now saying that it came down by fire. I said, "There's no way that's true."
Danny Jowenko: No, no, no, absolutely not.
Jeff Hill: 'Cause if anybody was -- Like when I called Controlled Demolition here in North America, they tell me that , "Oh, it's possible it came down from fire" and this and that and stuff like that --.
Danny Jowenko: When the FEMA makes a report that it came down by fire, and you have to earn your money in the States as a controlled demolition company and you say, "No, it was a controlled demolition", you're gone. You know?
Jeff Hill: Yeah, exactly, you'll be in a lot of trouble if you say that, right?
Danny Jowenko: Of course, of course. That's the end of your -- the end of the story.
Jeff Hill: Yeah, 'cause I was calling demolitions companies just to ask them if they used the term, "Pull it" in demolition terms and even Controlled Demolitions, Incorporated said they did. But the other people wouldn't -- didn't want to talk to me about Building 7 really because obviously 'cause they knew what happened and they didn't want to say it.
Danny Jowenko: Exactly.
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
Mon, 2010-05-03 07:19
#83
Mon, 2010-05-03 10:42
#84
Kevin A. Kelly, FAIA – Fellow, American Institute of Architects. Co-author of the groundbreaking book "Problem Seeking: An Architectural Programming Primer," which is a standard college textbook in the USA. He brings more than 28 years of experience in the programming field including such projects as the Chrysler Technology Center, Microsoft's recent headquarters expansion, all sports venues for the Atlanta Olympics, and the 1.8 million square foot 3M Research & Development Austin Center. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The Presentation made by Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth at the AIA Convention in San Francisco [May 2009] made a sufficient case that a new investigation into the collapses of the 3 high rise buildings on 9/11/01 would be worthwhile."
Mon, 2010-05-03 10:46
#85
Hamid Mumin Ph.D., P.Eng., P.Geo. – Professor of Geology and past Department Chair at Brandon University, Manitoba, Canada, and Adjunct Professor at the Department of Earth Sciences, University of Western Ontario. A Professional Engineer, Professional Geoscientist, and Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Manitoba past Director to the Canadian Council of Professional Geoscientists. Also past President of the Canadian Council of Professional Geoscientists, which is the national council that advises all Provincial and Territorial engineering and geoscience associations on matters dealing with professional practice, conduct, ethics and standards, including international relations. Consults regularly for industry and continues to work on many areas of professional ethics and standards. Author and co-author of more than 80 scientific articles, monographs, and conference presentations on geology. Co-editor of Ore Mineral Atlas (2004) and Exploring for Iron Oxide Copper-Gold Deposits: Canada and Global Analogues (2009) both published by the Geological Association of Canada, Mineral Deposits Division. Statement to this website 12/14/09:
"Truth, Ethics and Professionalism are completely lacking in the official aftermath and investigations surrounding the 911 disasters. Unfortunately we went to war predicated on lies, sustained in lies, and perpetuated in lies. The quickest way to stop this endless warring is to expose the truth about what and who caused the 911 disaster. It is clear that the World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7 were brought down in a contrived and controlled demolition from within. Where is the investigation? Who really benefitted from this? In any criminal investigation the first question asked is “who benefitted”. Just follow the money."
Mon, 2010-05-03 10:52
#86
Ali Mojahid, BS CE, MS CE, PhD Civil and Architectural Engineering, PE, SI – Licensed Professional Engineer, States of Florida, Louisiana, and Mississippi. Licensed Special Inspector / Threshold Inspector, State of Florida. Licensed Building Inspector, Southern Building Code Congress International (SBCCI). Extensive experience in structural design, structural analysis and structural building elements combined actions under severe weather, torsional loads, windloads for numerous projects including sport arenas, airport concourse and cargo buildings, hotels, condominiums, high-end residential and commercial buildings. Extensive forensic engineering experience on numerous projects after hurricanes Andrew, Charlie, Frances, and Katrina. Over 20 years of experience as a structural and forensic engineer. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"Just another conspiracy against some groups of people for the US administration to beat the war drums. How can a building just collapse onto itself without having controlled explosions inside the building?
Let me ask a few questions pertaining to if it was not a controlled demolition. .."
Mon, 2010-05-03 10:56
#87
William Rice, BS CE, MS CE, PE – Licensed Professional Engineer, State of Vermont. Worked on structural steel and concrete buildings in Boston, New York, and Philadelphia for two of the nation’s largest building construction companies; the Austin Company and the George A. Fuller Construction Company. Former Professor at Vermont Technical College where he taught engineering materials, structures lab, and other building related courses for over 20 years.
- Essay Vermont Guardian 3/1/07: "Having worked on structural steel buildings as a civil engineer in the era when the Twin Towers were designed and constructed, I found some disturbing discrepancies and omissions concerning their collapse on 9/11. ...
The interesting fact is that each of these 110-story Twin Towers fell upon itself in about ten seconds at nearly free-fall speed. This violates Newton’s Law of Conservation of Momentum that would require that as the stationary inertia of each floor is overcome by being hit, the mass (weight) increases and the free-fall speed decreases.
Even if Newton’s Law is ignored, the prevailing theory would have us believe that each of the Twin Towers inexplicably collapsed upon itself crushing all 287 massive columns on each floor while maintaining a free-fall speed as if the 100,000, or more, tons of supporting structural-steel framework underneath didn't exist..."
Mon, 2010-05-03 11:09
#88
Rick Fowlkes, BS CE, MBA, PE – Licensed Professional Engineer, States of Arizona and California. Professional structural engineer with over 38 years experience with commercial, residential, and industrial engineering designs, including design of electrical power plants, substations, and transmission line structures. Owned and operated his own consulting engineering business since 1983. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The truth has not been told up to this point, but the evidence brought to light by the Architects and Engineer's for 9/11 Truth is compelling proof that a more thorough investigation is indicated."
Mon, 2010-05-03 11:11
#89
Jonathan H. Cole, BS CE, PE – Licensed Professional Civil Engineer, States of Connecticut, Florida, and New Hampshire. Over 28 years experience in civil engineering and construction management, including building, bridge, utility and infrastructure design. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"There is so much evidence that has yet to be 'debunked' or explained by the 'official story'.
The initial antenna drop in WTC 1 before the perimeter walls drop, accelerating into the path of most resistance, the concrete dust analysis and energy it took to make it, why the corners of the towers did not collapse at the same rate as the floors, the cut up core columns at ground zero, the lack of any photographic evidence whatsoever of any 'pancaked' floors, the time it took to collapse, the energy needed to throw steel hundreds of feet, the squibs well below the collapse wave, and of course the collapse of WTC 7.
Until such time that all this can be clearly explained without the use of explosives, I will throw my lot with fundamental laws of physics rather then the 'official story' which defies those laws."
Mon, 2010-05-03 17:22
#90
Bec.De.Corbin
And to think old goat smashed his truck into a brick wall for this thread...
http://debunking911.com/index.html
All I got to say is this site has you against the ropes pretty good... see the WTC 7 button to see what the term "pull" really means in the building demolition world. You'll be surprised: I was.
Again: I want the explosives technical angle: how could have it been done? What are the minimal placement of charges and their estimated size that needed to be in place? If this, according to you happened; how did it happen? Most everyone in the 9-11 conspiracy circle has diagrams and charts to prove their points... like this one; where's the one on explosive placement? I can't believe there isn't one and you haven't found it yet.
Mon, 2010-05-03 22:07
#91
The site seems to be mixing its information sources up, using some current NIST information along with info that NIST doesn't confirm, or has outright abandoned, eg; hollow "tube" structure. To brush over the fact that your diagram doesn't include the core columns, as if these were mere afterthoughts and don't affect how the building collapses is pretty hilarious. A quick glance over suggests that it could be an amusing read. Thanks.
Also, this thread isn't about answering your questions. If you want to investigate how explosives were used, feel free to start your own thread. Unless you have some new, earth-shattering information demonstrating how the rapid disintegration of 80 and 90 floors respectively of the World Trade Centre can be explained using physical principles supported by science, then, I'm sorry, but I'll be trusting the observations of hundreds of building designers and engineers over the confused assertions of yet another amateur "debunking" site.
Tue, 2010-05-04 12:30
#92
Bec.De.Corbin
Very well then, we agree to disagree...
Tue, 2010-05-04 14:45
#93
from "debunking911.com" FAQ:
Q: Why do you hide your identity?
A: It should be none of anyone's business who I am
lol!
And the very first thing I read about Osama bin Laden on "debunking"911.com is this:
1986-89 According to Islamic sources, bin Laden participates in numerous battles during the Afghan war against the Soviets as a guerilla commander, including the fierce battle of Jalalabad which led the Soviets to finally withdraw from Afghanistan.
Not so fast, debunkers. Your history is bad. In fact, the battle of Jalalabad turned out to be the first proof that the Afghan PDPA army of men and women volunteers could successfully defend the city without the help of the Soviet army, which pulled out of Afghanistan in 1989. Western and Pakistani newz reporters suggested that the PDPA government would fall within a few months of Soviet pullout. The PDPA actually lasted more than two years against the well-funded mujahideen armed to the eye teeth by their western world friends in Washington and Islamabad, Riyahd etc. What other non-truths would we discover on their web site, whoever they are?
Tue, 2010-05-04 15:06
#94
I like the First Time in History! tab.
Tue, 2010-05-04 15:46
#95
Kerry Lewis McCarthy, B.Arch – Licensed Architect, State of Oregon. Experienced with high-rise steel frame structures, including building-forensic, some steel frame but mostly concrete. Studied WTC's design, structure and construction at university. Over 30 years experience. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"Very hard to understand the 'complete' lack of concrete rubble in the debris field. Even had the basements filled with concrete topping slab debris. There should have been a stack of jumbled building elements about 9 more stories above grade. The core columns were fully welded yet none were longer than 40 ft (max trucking length). This event as portrayed by the NIST Report totally messes with my understanding of how buildings behave. I haven't been able to reconcile the promoted theory of collapse with the way I know buildings to behave."
Tue, 2010-05-04 15:47
#96
Brian Brademeyer, MS CE – Former Senior Research Engineer, MIT 1975 - 1987. Currently Software Engineering Consultant Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"My first-order analysis of WTC1 collapse suggests insufficient energy for pulverization of concrete slabs in the floor elements. Official story does not explain why weakening by fire resulted in abrupt collapse, rather than a sagging-slumping failure mode."
Tue, 2010-05-04 15:48
#97
Roland Edward Angle, BS CE, PE – Licensed Professional Civil Engineer, State of California. Forty years experience in Civil & Military design, analysis & construction, including blast analysis of nuclear hardened facilities. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The official explanation of the building failures defies known scientific methods of analyses and is untenable in the face of logical investigation."
Tue, 2010-05-04 15:50
#98
Edward E. Knesl, MS Eng, PE – Licensed Professional Civil and Structural Engineer, State of Arizona. Thirty five years of domestic and international experience in commercial and transportation projects, including: Structural Design and Analysis, Construction Administration and Management, Plan Review, and Special Inspection. Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"We design and analyze buildings for the overturning stability to resist the lateral loads with the combination of the gravity loads. Any tall structure failure mode would be a fall over to its side. It is impossible that heavy steel columns could collapse at the fraction of the second within each story and subsequently at each floor bellow.
We do not know the phenomenon of the high rise building to disintegrate internally faster than the free fall of the debris coming down from the top.
The engineering science and the law of physics simply doesn't know such possibility. Only very sophisticated controlled demolition can achieve such result, eliminating the natural dampening effect of the structural framing huge mass that should normally stop the partial collapse. The pancake theory is a fallacy, telling us that more and more energy would be generated to accelerate the collapse. Where would such energy would be coming from?"
Wed, 2010-05-05 14:42
#99
[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18994]Encroachment of Free Speech on 9/11[/url]
University of Quebec Staff Denounce 9/11 Truthers Speech
Julien Tourreille, who holds the Raoul-Dandurand chair in strategic and diplomatic issues, told Montreal media outlets that Truthers are intellectually dishonest."I think it's a shame to see UQÀM's name associated to such a movement," Tourreille told Montreal newspaper La Presse last week. "It doesn't help the credibility of a research institution that tries to demonstrate that it employs serious people."
Apparently the same crazy George regime of war criminals who also brought us corporate-sponsored climate science denial are serious people. That's the Ceeb for ya.
Thu, 2010-05-06 02:46
#100
oops. double post.
Thu, 2010-05-06 02:49
#101
The Gazette article has Toureille as a doctoral candidate, not as a chair, but it doesn't matter. None of the articles elaborate on what whoever made this statement meant by "intellectual dishonesty". Pretty convenient term to use when you don't actually have to back it up. I hope he gets the opportunity at some point to publicly elaborate on his claim. He'd better, if he believes in intellectual honesty.
I wonder why he thinks he can speak for l'UQAM?