Greek crisis: discussion

Fears Over Greek Bailout Send Shares and Euro Tumbling

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/14/nicolas-sarkozy-threatene...

"Share prices have dropped across Europe and the euro has slid to an 18-month low against the dollar on fears that the eurozone bailout of Greece will fail and reports that the eurozone bailout of Greece will fail and reports that French president Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to pull his country out of the single currency altogether to force Germany to agree to the rescue plan.."

Euro-Bankers to Greece: The Wealthy Won't Pay Their Taxes So Labor Must Do So - by Michael Hudson

http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2010/05/euro-bankers-to-gree...

"The 'Greek bailout' should have been called what it is, a TARP for German and other European bankers and global currency speculators. The money is being provided by other governments (mainly the German Treasury, cutting back its domestic spending) into a kind of escrow account for the Greek government to pay foreign bondholders who bought up these securities at plunging prices over the past few weeks.

They will make a killing, as will buyers of hundreds of billions of dollars of credit-default swaps on the Greek government bonds, speculators in euro-swaps and other casino-capitalist gamblers.."

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

'Thumbs Down' on the EU Bailout

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1450.htm

"The markets were going in for the kill: the eurozone itself was on the brink of collapse.."

..reveling article. here the correct link though.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25450.htm

Something that seems to have escaped most of the press:

Quote:

[b]Guess What Greece Has To Jettison?[/b]
Greece was told that if it wanted a bailout, it needed to consider privatizing its government health care system....
The requirement, part of a deal arranged by the IMF, the European Union and the European Central bank, is a tacit admission that national health care programs are unsustainable. Along with transportation and energy, the bailout group, according to the New York Times, wants the Greek government to remove "the state from the marketplace in crucial sectors."
[i]snip ...[/i]
Of course most of the media have been largely silent about the health care privatization measure for Greece, as it conflicts with their universal, single-payer health care narrative.
The public health system in the Hellenic Republic is operated by the Ministry of Health and Welfare, where centralized decisions and rules are made.
It provides free or low-cost treatment through what is essentially a single-payer system established in 1983 when the Socialist Party was in power. Family members and retirees are also covered. Like the systems in Britain and Canada, it has agonizingly long waiting lists.
It should be no surprise that in Greece, health care spending as a percentage of the economy is relatively steep. According to Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development data, it's higher than that in the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom and Japan. Despite all the spending, Greece could never cover 100% of its citizens, reaching only about 83% for primary care.
[i]etc ...[/i]

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=534021
Most of the rest of the article is a pretty predicatable "government health care bad" rant but what is interesting is that the bailout is coming with this particular demand.

NoDifference, much as I hate to say it, where is the money to support the Greek health care system going to come from.  The rest of the Eurozone has made it clear it's not them (in fact they've made it clear that, if the system isn't "fixed" whatever that may mean the bailout isn't happening).

abnormal wrote:

NoDifference, much as I hate to say it, where is the money to support the Greek health care system going to come from.  The rest of the Eurozone has made it clear it's not them (in fact they've made it clear that, if the system isn't "fixed" whatever that may mean the bailout isn't happening).

I don't really understand why so many people insist on being schills for the financial con gaming being practiced world wide by major financial institutions. Time and time again, major players in the financial speculation markets are seen carrying off the public wealth, but time and time again, people pop in the shrug, "glly gee whiz! Where did it the money go? It isn't under any of the three shells here".

"Ooops!"

Low and behold, yon banker comes to the rescue "generously" willing to cover the loss, at the cost of opening up new markets for more profit and plunder, and a good deal of new speculation, but our friendly interlocutor the schill, is never at a loss for words taking up the side of the prospective bankrollers.

Shrugs shoulders innocently: "Where is all the money going to come from? I guess cutting back on public service, and opening up new markets for a fresh round of speculation, is the only option!"

No way it could come from those who made a profit "losing it" in the first place? Of course not!

 

You have already agreed that an 'international' solution is possible. So, why limit yourself to "Greece". Your saying that the whole EU is powerless in the face of Goldman Sachs. Apparently, they are more than happy the shovel over the German tax payers money, on condition that their can be more ripoffs.

Seriously, the way the shell game is becoming really obvious.

That we stop talking about these things as if the "Market" and the financial institutions that run it is somehow a natural force beyond human control.

The Greek rescue involves paying the bond holders off at 100%.  Equity would say they should share the pain.

Devaluation of a local currency, while possibly painful, is VASTLY superior to what will happen in Greece and Spain without devaluation.  To them The Euro is the Gold standard and if they stay on it they will experience the Great Depression all over again.  I expect the result is that at least one of those countries will foment a war to solve the problems.

Paul Krugman comments here, and here.

jrootham wrote:

The Greek rescue involves paying the bond holders off at 100%.  Equity would say they should share the pain.

I assume that goes for the pension funds that hold those bonds?  Or the retirees who have invested their life savings in those instruments?

It'd be interesting to watch what would happen if they were incapable of borrowing money at anything less than credit card type interest rates.  Not pretty but interesting.

So you're saying that Greek pension funds don't own government bonds?

And I agree that Greece is in the position where nobody wants to loan them money already.  Just think what it would be like if they actually did default.

Greece Considering Legal Action Against US Banks For Crisis

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDxF1YfeViEc&pos=1

"Greece is considering legal action against US investment banks that might have contributed to that country's debt crisis, Prime Minister George Papandreou said.."

Europe's Fascist Bailout Means Britain's About to Bail-OUT of Europe

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100005678/eu...'

"Just when you thought the EU could not go any further down the road towards authoritarian excess, it gets worse..The reactionary character of the EU system is astonishing to behold...Senor Baarroso, a decent man, needs to step back and ask himself what on earth is going to be achieved by imposing a deflation death spiral on a large swathe of Europe.."

Euro Breakup Talk Increases as Germany Loses Its Currency Proxy

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agwHp5N5FXA8&pos=2

"You have the great problem of a potential disintegration of the euro" former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker said yesterday in London...Investors had always regarded the euro as a de jure German mark..It's dawning on the world that it is becoming, de facto, a Greek drachma."

US Faces Same Problems As Greece, Says Bank of England

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/edmundconway/100005657/us-faces-sam... -bank-of-england/

"Mervyn Kup, Governor of the Bank of England, fears that America shares many of the same fiscal problems currently haunting Europe. 'It's absolutely vital, absolutely vital, for governments to get on top of the problem.."

Blood in the Streets: Bank Bailout Protesters Storm Ireland's Parliament (and vid)

http://dailybail.com/home/blood-in-the-streets-bank-bailout-protesters-s...

"The demonstrators are angry about the bailout of the major Irish banks and their bond holders. The Irish people are expected to be on the hook for 77 Billion Pounds to purchase the bad loans.."

Major financial forces are now in motion and the sh*t is about to hit the fan. And not just in Europe..

Grotesque Global Financial System - Economic Theft On An Unprecedented Scale - by John Pilger

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19243

"Greece is a microsm of a modern class war rarely reported as such

The heresy of Greece is that the uprising of its ordinary people provides an authentic hope unlike that lavished upon the warlord in the White House.."

Remarks On The National Bankruptcy of Greece

http://www.gegenstandpunkt.com/english/greek-state-bankruptcy.html

"The bankruptcy of Greece is, as far as the country itself is concerned, the price it is paying for joining the European Union including the Monetary Union, and for meeting the resulting demands on its national economy."

[these comments were to items above]

US and British and European bankers were involved in developing a lot of Soviet infrastructure, including the Dnipro dam in the thirties. They helped Stalin provide power for his murderous collectivization pogroms, and made use of the grain from dead peasants after.

Further, Trotsky was head of Soviet military planning.  From December 1917 until Feb 1918 Bolsheviks tried to control Kyiv, until they invaded and massacred 5000 Ukrainian civilians Feb.9 1918 according to the Red Cross. Trotsky at first verbally supported an independent Ukrainian republic under the Ukrainian Central Rada but in the winter of '18 preferred the bolshevik puppet 'Ukrainian Soviet Government' in Kharkiv and the executions of Ukrainians proceeded unhindered in February.  Trotsky was involved throughout the establishment of the torturing, raping Cheka.  I am very disturbed by Trotskyites or whichever groups still idolize soviet thugs unreservedly.

It's also disturbing to hear that right wing parties in Greece were involved with secret police in trying to blame the bank fires on KKE.  However misinformed KKE might be on realities under the Soviets, its no excuse to try to frame the KKE for fires and murders which circumstances indicate were more likely acts of agents provocateurs.

anyway, just had to clarify that.

 

"There has to be a point when even the American public...will realize it has been had?"

While it is constantly pointed out, hereabouts, the "ordinary masses" are not stupid, it could be argued that they are gullible as hell, constantly told by the cons (confidence people) that they too can find security, if not great wealth, and believing it. It is indeed the age of Barnum and Bailey. And it is easiest to believe the populist explanation for failure, given them by the teapartying Cons. Surely Hedges realizes that!

Experts Fear Spread of Social Unrest As Financial Crisis Continues

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5547861,00.html

"The potential for widespread social unrest in response to the continuing financial crisis has many experts fearing the worst. Gerald Celente ahs an even bleaker, succinct opinion of where the spread of social unrest could lead: 'War. It's as simple as that..'"

The Economic Crisis: Class Struggles Heat Up in Greece

by Dimitris Fasfalis

Quote:
The stakes of the movement against the IMF/European Union/Greek PASOK government austerity plan were explained by Ilias Vretakou, vice-president of the ADEDY union:

“We're sending from Athens a message of struggle and resistance to workers of all the European countries, against the barbarism of capital markets, governments and the European Union. The government, the IMF and the European Union have decided to drive the workers, and Greek society, to the most savage social barbarism that we have ever known. They're levelling workers and society down to the bottom. They're stealing our wages, they're stealing our pensions, they're stealing our social rights, they're stealing our right to life. They're imposing the law of the jungle in work relations,... reducing the wage rate for extra hours. They make it possible for employers to lay off an older employee and hire, with the same money, three or four young workers under precarious conditions.”[4]

This speech drew enthusiastic applause from the crowd that had just booed away the GSEE leader Panagopoulos, criticized by rank-and-file unionists for reluctance to fight the austerity measures in February.[5] Among the other speakers, Claus Matecki (of the German union DGB) and Paul Fourier (of the French General Confederation of Workers) also aroused vivid applause, especially when the latter declared: “Today, we're all Greeks! Thank you and good luck.”[6]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19626

George Victor wrote:

"There has to be a point when even the American public...will realize it has been had?"

While it is constantly pointed out, hereabouts, the "ordinary masses" are not stupid, it could be argued that they are gullible as hell, constantly told by the cons (confidence people) that they too can find security, if not great wealth, and believing it. It is indeed the age of Barnum and Bailey. And it is easiest to believe the populist explanation for failure, given them by the teapartying Cons. Surely Hedges realizes that!

Let's keep it completely in context, Sj.  I could not agree less with that disease theory...not in the Post-Enlightenment age.

Pharmaceuticals impose embargo on Greek health service
By John Vassilopoulos
3 July 2010

quote:
On June 14 the PASOK government bowed to pressure from the company and restored prices to near their previous levels. Under the agreement Novo said the new prices were higher than those in a decree in force from May 3, but lower than the average of the three lowest prices in Europe. In a statement the company said, “It's still a price reduction compared with the prices before May 3. It's no longer 25 percent, but rather along the lines of 10 percent. We have therefore accepted the new temporary prices.”

The embargo by pharmaceuticals in retaliation against the price reduction and the zero-coupon bond scheme threatened a social disaster, with hundreds of lives put in danger. More than 50,000 people in Greece use Novo Nordisk’s fountain pen-like device to inject insulin. The Greek diabetes association described the actions of Novo Nordisk as “brutal capitalist blackmail”....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jul2010/gree-j03.shtml

Some analysts have noted that Greece, much like BC was to Canada back in 1983 when the Socreds introduced THEIR political atrocities, is characterized by economic weakness and political strength. The social opposition of the left is strongest in all the EU countries in Greece.

Hence the desire by the right, and their social democratic allies in Greece, to destroy the Greek resistance to IMF inspired atrocities. Greece is important for the left to follow and to express solidarity with Greek workers and working people.

Greek truck drivers defy government
By Stefan Steinberg
31 July 2010

Greek truck drivers decided on Friday to continue their five-day national strike, following a series of punitive measures by the social democratic government of Prime Minister George Papandreou aiming to break their action.

The indefinite strike began on Monday, when 33,000 licensed truck drivers stopped work to protest a decision by the government to revoke their system of licensing trucks. Under the existing system, truckers pay the state up to €100,000-200,000 to purchase a license to own and run their trucks. These licenses can then be resold by the truck owners.

The introduction of a new system by the government aimed at cutting the price of licenses would bankrupt many drivers. Haralambos Daditsios, a leader of the truck drivers union, said: “The state sold us these licenses, our jobs. Some people had to sell their houses to get one of these licenses ... We want justice.”

The revocation of the truckers' licensing system is part of the catalogue of demands made by the European Union and International Monetary Fund as conditions for their €110 billion ($142 billion) bailout package for Greece, secured in early May. In exchange for a further €9 billion tranche of aid in September, the EU and IMF are demanding that the Greek government crack down on so-called “closed professions,” such as the truck drivers....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jul2010/gree-j31.shtml

It's been noted already but it bears repeating that the resistance to capitalist atrocities (whether from right wing parties or the social democrats) in Europe is greatest in Greece. Hence the importance, from the point of view of "saving" European capital's position of dominance, of drowning Greek workers in blood. And the importance - for babblers, eg - of showing solidarity with Greeks who resist these current social democratic atrocities.

I am very sceptical of many comments made by people that do not have a relationship with Greece. There is a real disconnection with this country by many peoples of the west. This can be made for most of their comments about many places on the planet. Their perspective is marred by their own history of imperialism and how their nations have endeavoured to influence other patrs of the world without them even realising it. After all many of these "new" nations were created with this same policy that is now attempted once again on Greece. Many do not realise that such measures being dished out to Greece is not a first. It is a place were its history is one of resistance!

The situation in Greece has nothing to do with what is commonly said.It has primarily to do with a people resisting. Places on the planet were there is conflict has got do with people resisting and in places were there is no conflict, it is because people there are subjugated. What is hilarious, is that the peoples of the latter category do not even realise their predicament!

Finally, people of the west should know that most of the armed forces serving their one year compulsory service, last week signed a petition, informing the Greek Government that they would attack civil society if ordered, as their families are also suffering from the austerity measures!

My question is, would such political sensitivity prevail in countries such as Canada? If Toronto is an example, then the answer is in the negative.

That seems to substantiate the claim that political and class consciousness is strong in Greece.