I don't understand?
Don't ask me.
Anyways I've picked up more stuff on this and as I said before if Iran gets involed with this I think it could turn sour for the Free Gaza movement.
What did the US-Israeli propaganda machine tell you about Iran that would cause you to say this?
IMO the Israeli government is the biggest cause of anti-semitism in the current world. The Torah and Koran and Old Testament are all based on the same murderous, homophobic texts. I am anti the Bad Book. Any one who relies on a book to say they have the will of god behind them when they murder others is a liar. I don't care whether they are Jews or Moslem or Christian they all believe in slightly different interpretations of the same hateful ideology that makes everyone but the Chosen a justifiable target.
Bravo, kropotkin! I entirely agree with you.
As the link itself spells out, the photo *was* released. One agency cropped it.
I guess these activists would have had to tickle armed soldiers into dropping their guns for the right to be satisfied that they were simply reasonably defending themselves against an early-morning raid during which some of their friends and associates were shot in the head.
Some of the raiders were injured. Were any murdered? The guy on the ground there seems very vulnerable, and terrified. He is completely at the mercy of those around him. The guy with the knife has a completely relaxed arm. He isn't lunging. He isn't holding the knife up. He doesn't have the knife against the soldier's body. He is, in fact, some distance away. Weapons come in many forms. Many feet are close to the soldier's neck, yet it wasn't snapped.
Why?
Men with guns and intent descend on a ship. A few are disarmed and subdued after invading. Other intruders kill. But the neutralized soldiers are not killed, while carnage unfolds. Hurt in the process of protecting those onboard, yes, but not killed. Who here among us would say they would kiss the cheeks of their assassin? What is so hard to understand? What is the controversy?
The way the Israeli government and media are spinning it is like a robber arrested at a failed bank heist trying to convince the police that the bank teller he shot multiple times in the face at point blank range is the criminal because she threw a roll of pennies at him (to defend herself.)
A Public Forum On The Gaza Freedom Flotilla: Next Steps in Ending the Siege on Gaza
Thursday, June 10, 2010 7:00 - 9:00 PM, Steelworkers Hall - 24 Cecil Street, Toronto
Please join us for this critical discussion and next steps in responding to the BDS call to break the siege of Gaza
Event Sponsored by CAIA and SAIA
Blair '100 percent on Israel's Side
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129666§ionid=351020202
'When it comes to security I'm 100 percent on Israel's side. Blair the special envoy of the Quartet of Middle East peace mediators, was echoing Netanyahu's dfense for the May 31 commando attack on a Gaza bound aid convoy that killed 20 activists onboard the fleet and left more than 40 injured...'You have proven that there is no limit to your skill and I salute you, Netanyahu told army forces.
Israel Trains PKK militants in Iraq
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129635§ionid=351020204
"Raising serious concerns among the Turkish authorities was the PKK's slaughter of 7 Turkish soldiers in a rocket attack on a naval base in the southern province of Halay on May 31. Turkey's intelligence organizations are also looking to see whether the attack was linked to the Israeli military's onslaught on a Turkish backed relief mission to Gaza.."
What did the US-Israeli propaganda machine tell you about Iran that would cause you to say this?
Fair enough question, that's my own opinion based on seeing the Iranian government crushing its own dissidents, students and progressives. Remember that? It was covered in a number of information mediums, not just MSM. Do you think the world has forgotten about that enough not to see that Iran is just trying to be opportunistic about this situation?
In all honesty I did a search for "Iranian ships to Gaza" and a link to that page to the article came up. It seemed interesting enough (the article) so I posted a link to it here because it does relate to the subject at hand. I did not look around the sight so don't read too much into that.
Atzmon wrote: If you want to grasp what underlies the Israeli deadly barbarism all you have to do is open the Old Testament.
Caissa observed that referring to the Tanakh as the Old Testament is pretty Christo-centric.
Cytizen H,
I don't hate Jews or taint Palestinians nor was I aware Gilad Atzmon did either. You are of course entitled to your own opinions. I agree not to post him here again but am not much interested in further explanation or again interrupting anyone's gardening as a result
You might not hate Jews, but the fact the you would openly speak of a Jewish "pathology" is just sick. If I were to say that violence in Darfur is due to a barbarous pathology inherent in Africans, that would be racist. The worst thing about people like you is that you don't even see that you're on the slippery slope towards klanhood.
And you do nothing but harm to the movement for a free palestine. Because when you say things like you have above, and quote Atzmon, it means that Zionists can point to you and say "look, the anti-Israel crowd is anti-semitic". You make that possible. That is your doing. You are responsible. Now that you have outed yourself as an antisemite, the best thing would be for you to refrain from posting on any threads that discuss Israel. For the sake of everyone else. And, to be honest, it would be no great loss.
The Zionists don't need anyone to point to when claiming criticism of Israel is Antisemitism ... and neither does the media.
Gawd, the Zionists can take a situation of Israel attacking an aid ship in International waters killing 9 or more aid workers and they and the media have no problem at all calling the victims Antisemites and terrorists without the need of pointing to NDPP.
Yeah, let's censor any mention of Atzmon from this board since he's already the most censored musician on the planet. What a fabulous saxophonist but there's virtually no hope he'll ever be invited to the Montreal Jazz Festival. Seriously folks, don't we have better things to do than beat up on marginalized people here? What kind of response is this to the crimes Israel has just committed?
I'm sorry, who exactly are the marginalized people being beat up on here? Being an apologist for anti-semitism makes you no better than those who are apologists for the occupation of Gaza.
The problem is that a religious based political system sits atop Palestine. The non-jewish people have less rights and even the non violent ones are harassed in what supporters claim is a democracy. I posted above some quotes from people claiming to be jewish. Don''t you think that as a self described person of jewish descent you would do better to take the plank out of your own eye and stop complaining about the sliver of wood in someone else? I can't imagine people in Canada making those kinds of threats and no one getting arrested. Its not like Israel doesn't have a secret service capability.
The Israeli government is a murderous regime that kills indiscriminately but you think that ill chosen words that highlight that the murderers in the Israeli cabinet are all jewish is the problem. Anti-semitism is a problem because the IDF murders people based on ethnicity. But continue on telling us how the terrible language of the victims and some misguided friends equates to supporting 62 years of prisons for the innocent. If Israel was a secular state then it would be far easier to leave out any reference to the jewish nature of it. It is like saying that if you say the Iranian government is islamic it implies you are saying that all moslems are evil like the Iranian Mullahs.
To me it is just a fact that the Israeli government is jewish just as it is a fact that the Iranian government is islamic. I can see why people get confused and start talking about a jewish state just like I hear news reports regularly that talk about islam and Iran in negative and hateful ways. Neither the citizens of Israel or Iran should be blamed for the actions of their murderous elite but I find it telling that Israel claims it murders in the name of democracy and as the regions only democracy.
CiyzenH the zionist totalitarian state is the problem so lets hear you talking about them and not telling us how others need to be marginalized since they are not polite and don't get the fact that just because the people ordering the killing of Palestinians and their supporters are jewish does not make all jews responsible. Much like the fact that all jihadist are moslem does not mean that all moslems are jihadist.
Israel's cult of Victimhood:
"If the confrontation with the activists on the flotilla has proved to Israelis that the unarmed passengers were really terrorists, the world's refusal to stay quiet has confirmed what Israelis already knew: that deep down, non-Jews are all really anti-Semites.
Meanwhile, the lesson the rest of us need to draw from the deadly commando raid is that the world can no longer afford to indulge these delusions."
Netanyahu Says Gaza flotilla inquiry will probe activists..
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-says-gaza-flotil...
"Netanyahu added that Israel was still in consultation with the United States and other international actors over the form an inquiry would take - but emphasized that only the military would have the right to question commandos who took part in the raid. 'This is how the armies of all our global allies operate.'
FREE GAZA: TAKE ACTION - Gaza Flotilla Survivors Recount Tales of Horror and Brutality..
http://www.freegaza.org/en/home/56-news/1226-take-action
"Please TAKE ACTION and DEMAND that the United Nations launch an independent investigation into the Israeli attack against unarmed relief ships in the Freedom Flotilla. DEMAND that the international community stop simply condemning Israel's brutal and illegal blockade of Gaza - and start doing something to end it!
CONTACT; UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon, The United Nations, New York, NY 10017 Tel +1 212 963 5012 Fax +1 212 963 2155
email [email protected]
I suppose this might be considered as "Israel folding" in some circles.
JERUSALEM — Israel took a first step Wednesday to temper the uproar caused by its deadly high-seas raid on a blockade-busting flotilla by allowing in potato chips, cookies, spices and other previously banned food items into the Gaza Strip.
OMG, is Israel signing its own death warrant by allowing such here-to-fore genocidal material of mass destruction back into Gaza?
Not to worry, the murderous Palestinians will not be launching milk and cookies into Israel without the steel needed to build the deadly snack launching pads.
But the things Gazans need most — cement, steel and other materials to rebuild their war-ravaged territory — are still mostly banned, and critics denounced the move as insignificant. President Barack Obama called for a new approach on the blockade.
What next?
More boats? More Canadians on more boats? Does that engage more people in Canada? Focus on Canadian government to break the siege? lawsuit? Intensify BDS campaign?
Don''t you think that as a self described person of jewish descent you would do better to take the plank out of your own eye and stop complaining about the sliver of wood in someone else?
You're gonna quote Jesus at us Jews? Really? If the Jews cared what he had to say, we would have accepted him as our lord and savior 2000 years ago.
Israel may trade a weak probe for a weak easing of the blockade:
Aimed at weakening the crippling Israeli blockade on the Gaza Strip, the attacked aid flotilla may have indirectly accomplished its goal, as Israel is said to be close to accepting a British plan that would include easing the blockade on humanitarian goods.
The deal would have Israel allowing some additional civilian aid into the strip in return for an international promise to make the prospective international probe of its attack on one of the ships a weak one.
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/08/israel-may-trade-weak-probe-for-easin...
What next?More boats? More Canadians on more boats? Does that engage more people in Canada? Focus on Canadian government to break the siege? lawsuit? Intensify BDS campaign?
More boats - are forthcoming, I think.
Widen the campaign in Canada - check.
Forget the Parliamentary Zionists, in all parties, that would probably simply act as an anchor or brake for such a campaign. I would add that this could happily be combined with anti-racist campaigning in general - even, or especially FN solidarity, for example - and this would be a well-deserved slap across the face to all the Israeli apologists and their endless pathetic attempts to link denunciation of that terrible regime with anti-Semitism, racism, etc.
This means strengthening and growing the Palestinian solidarity organizations. For the long haul. More festivals celebrating Palestinian culture, arts, poets, etc., etc., etc.
More BDS - check.
More contempt for the Canadian government - check.
Canadian Jews that want no part of the racist Israeli regime ought to be welcome in the growing movement. Israel relies upon a flow of Jewish settlers into the occupied territories, etc., to keep up that regime and nothing says "F off" so much as, "We're not interested. Jews belong everywhere."
You're gonna quote Jesus at us Jews? Really? If the Jews cared what he had to say, we would have accepted him as our lord and savior 2000 years ago.
Hey, that's interesting. I'm going to compare some quotes from Jesus with your posts. I'll let you know who scores better. This won't take long.
My money's on Dionysus.
The Unionist Election Desk has just declared Jesus the winner, hands down.
Er...
Don''t you think that as a self described person of jewish descent you would do better to take the plank out of your own eye and stop complaining about the sliver of wood in someone else?
You're gonna quote Jesus at us Jews? Really? If the Jews cared what he had to say, we would have accepted him as our lord and savior 2000 years ago.
Hmmm...hasn't stopped Israelis and their supporters from embracing Christian Zionists.
Perhaps they're crypto-Jesus Freaks then?
What next? More boats? More Canadians on more boats? Does that engage more people in Canada? Focus on Canadian government to break the siege? lawsuit? Intensify BDS campaign?
Here's a supplemental reply:
A Jewish Ship to Gaza by Jewish Voice for a Just Peace in the Near East
We are a group of German Jews who want to send a ship with not only daily necessities but also musical instruments to Gaza. We are acquiring a ship, loading it up in Germany, and then picking up passengers (Jewish and non-Jewish, German and non-German) at a Mediterranean port.Among the goods to be shipped will be urgent necessities like medicines, baby food, blankets, children's clothes, and school supplies ...
Hmm. Thing is, it's very, very easy to imagine the Israeli Navy and Air Force strafing these German Jews with machine gun fire.
I wonder how the Zionists would explain that away?
Jonathan Cook, who has written extensively about the Middle East, has the following article ...
Victimhood is not an excuse for Israeli injustice.
Cook describes a psychology in Israeli society, sometimes called the "shooting and crying syndrome", and explains its origins:
This strange discourse can only be deciphered if we understand the two apparently contradictory themes that have come to dominate the emotional landscape of Israel. The first is a trenchant belief that Israel exists to realise Jewish power; the second is an equally strong sense that Israel embodies the Jewish people's collective experience as the eternal victims of history.Israelis are not entirely unaware of this paradoxical state of mind, sometimes referring to it as the "shooting and crying" syndrome.
Israeli dissident Michel Warshawski has also noticed this attitude among the Zionist "left". In fact, Warshawski documents its progress from "shooting and then crying" to bombing and then "whimpering in self pity".
Warshawski on the Open Tomb that is Israeli society ... back in 2004.
This was BEFORE the invasion of Lebanon and the horrific slaughter in Gaza in the winter of 08/09. And before the recent pirate-like war crimes in the Mediterranean Sea.
Cook concludes that we can no longer afford to allow the Israelis to harbour their disturbing delusions about the rest of the world. However, the article is not very hopeful. And when such great efforts are made to blame the victims, terrorize their own Parliamentarians that dispute the repulsive narrative of hate, it's easy to see why.
Beyond "shooting and then crying" , beyond "bombing and then whimpering in self-pity", there is ... ??!!
You know Starspangle I don't think that if there was a man named jesus historically that he was god. I do think that if he is a historic figure he was jewish that is why I quoted him. Delusions of god like power seems to have also affected the Israeli cabinet. They must think they are the lord god almighty to be able to pass life and death sentences so casually.
The non-jewish people have less rights and even the non violent ones are harassed in what supporters claim is a democracy.
I posted above some quotes from people claiming to be jewish.
Don''t you think that as a self described person of jewish descent you would do better to take the plank out of your own eye and stop complaining about the sliver of wood in someone else?
...you think that ill chosen words that highlight that the murderers in the Israeli cabinet are all jewish is the problem.
Anti-semitism is a problem because the IDF murders people based on ethnicity.
But continue on telling us how the terrible language of the victims and some misguided friends equates to supporting 62 years of prisons for the innocent.
If Israel was a secular state then it would be far easier to leave out any reference to the jewish nature of it. It is like saying that if you say the Iranian government is islamic it implies you are saying that all moslems are evil like the Iranian Mullahs.
"It may be also reasonable to argue by now, that the Zionist initial attempt to ‘erect a new civilized Jew' should be realized as a total failure. In fact the Israeli Jew is the most brutal of them all, even more deadly than the fictional character depicted by Tarantino's film Inglorious Bastards.""The apparent shortage of an Israeli capacity to understand that they were the aggressors in a military raid that they themselves initiated, is symptomatic of the Jewish political incomprehension of the notion of history and of historical causality. From a Jewish perspective, history always starts where a Jewish suffering is detected."
'Within the Jewish tribal discourse every narrative starts to evolve when Jewish pain establishes itself. This obviously explains why Israelis and some Jews around the world can only think as far as ‘two state solution' within the framework of 1967 borders. It also explains why for most Jews the history of the holocaust starts in the gas chambers or with the rise of the Nazis. I have hardly seen any Israelis or Jews attempt to understand the circumstances that led to the clear resentment of Europeans towards their Jewish neighbors in the 1920's-40's." (emphasis my own)
CiyzenH the zionist totalitarian state is the problem so lets hear you talking about them and not telling us how others need to be marginalized since they are not polite and don't get the fact that just because the people ordering the killing of Palestinians and their supporters are jewish does not make all jews responsible.
Apologies for the length of this post.
Israeli Commandos Execute American Citizen Furkan Dogan 19 (vid)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25672.htm
Chomsky: The Real Threat Aboard the Freedom Flotilla
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25666.htm
"Israel assumes it can commit such crimes with impunity because the United States tolerates them and Europe generally follows the US lead."
Israel to ease Gaza blockade in exchange for watered-down probe
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25669.htm
According to the Telegraph, the senior Israeli officials denied there was any direct link between their willingness to cooperate over the blockade...But a Western source close to international discussions with Israel told the British daily that 'a quid pro quo is in the offing..'
Israel's American Christian-Soldiers: The Christian Fascists Are Growing Stronger
http://www.countercurrents.org/hedges080610.htm
"The Democrats have refused to appeal laws codified by the Bush administration. This means that the Christian fascists who achieve power will have the 'legal' tools to spy on, arrest, deny habeus corpus to, and torture or assassinate American citizens - as does the Obama administration.."
While Israel Kills and Maims: The Outrage at Helen Thomas
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir06092010.html
'While Thomas has since apologized for her hasty words and many Israelis have the right to continue living where they are, the reality is that Israeli settlers did indeed, come from elsewhere;p they are in fact, illegally occupying Palestinian land (a fact acknowledged even by the US State Department) and international law does require that they leave."
'Gaza Blockade is Economic Warfare'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129789§ionid=351020202
"The Israeli government has admitted that its blockade of Gaza is not a security measure but actually an act of 'economic warfare' against Hamas, an Israel human rights group says.
In repsonse to a lawsuit by the Tel Aviv based Legal Center for Freedom of Movement (GISHA), the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare, mcclatchydc.com reported Wednesday.
'Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza, Gisha Director Sari Bashi said."
PART II
... I was waiting for the other shoe to fall. Here it is:
Outraged by by Prime Minister Recep [sic] Tayyip's Erdogan's repeated denunciations of the May 31 Israeli raid, as well as his co-sponsorship with Brazil of an agreement with Iran designed to promote renewed negotiations with the West on Tehran's nuclear program, some neoconservatives are even demanding that the U.S. try to expel Ankara from NATO as one among [sic] of several suggested actions aimed at punishing Erdogan's AKP (Justice and Development Party) government.
"Turkey, as a member of NATO, is privy to intelligence information having to do with terrorism and with Iran," noted the latest report by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), a hard-line neoconservative group that promotes U.S.-Israeli military ties and has historically cultivated close ties to Turkey's military, as well.
"If Turkey finds its best friends to be Iran, Hamas, Syria and Brazil (look for Venezuela in the future) the security of that information (and Western technology in weapons in Turkey's arsenal) is suspect. The United States should seriously consider suspending military cooperation with Turkey as a prelude to removing it from the organization," ...
http://original.antiwar.com/lobe/2010/06/09/neoconservatives-lead-charge...
PART I
Israel threatens war if Turkish Prime Minister tries to deliver Gaza aid:
Israeli Army commander and top Likud member Uzi Dayan today warned on Israeli Army Radio that Israel would consider any attempt by the Turkish military to protect future aid ships from attack an "act of war."
Dayan then added that if Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan attempted to accompany the aid ships personally, as he has reportedly considered "we would not try to take over the ship he was on, but would sink it." He added that Erdogan's presence on a future aid ship would also be a casus belli for an Israeli war against Turkey.
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/09/israel-threatens-war-if-turkish-pm-tr...
Let's imagine this scenario has occurred. Israel is at war with Turkey. Israel is not a (formal, there is no treaty agreement) ally of the U.S.A. Turkey (through its NATO membership) is. Who would the U.S.A. actively or tacitly support? If the U.S.A. were to support Israel, then it would contradict the excuse of NATO membership used to drag Canada and other NATO members into the Afghan war.
Remember? Citing the NATO Charter where it says "An attack against one [NATO] member is to be considered an attack against all [NATO] members." ...
Yes, Turkey will be out and Israel will be in - has to be that way. According to Rick Rozoff Israel is already close to being in NATO. I smell something big coming down...
Freedom Flotilla: the detail that escaped Netanyahu
http://www.voltairenet.org/article165767
"as is often the case when the stakes are high, the media distracts the public from the real issues.."
If I am really being ridiculous by voicing my concerns about the kind of language that is being used here, and the kinds of views that are being expressed, then I'll stay away from any of the threads that deal with Israel.
Thanks, that would be much appreciated. I think you're starting to 'get it', but your long lines of questioning really don't contribute much to the topic at hand. Perhaps you could start your own thread for your questions, and those interested could answer you there without interrupting this thread.
1. The non-jewish people have less rights and even the non violent ones are harassed in what supporters claim is a democracy.
Okay, please believe that I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but within Israel itself, what rights are non-Jewish citizens denied? I'm not saying you're making this up, but I don't know about this.
2. I posted above some quotes from people claiming to be jewish.
Do you think their Jewishness made them say those things? Could it not just be that they are assholes? Do people of Jewish descent have a monopoly on being racist assholes?
3. Don''t you think that as a self described person of jewish descent you would do better to take the plank out of your own eye and stop complaining about the sliver of wood in someone else?
I have absolutely no idea what this means. Forgive my ignorance. What is the plank in my eye?
4 First of all, the comments I took issue with had nothing to do with the cabinet. They had to do with a "Jewish pathology". Secondly, not all members of the Israeli cabinet are Jewish.
5. But continue on telling us how the terrible language of the victims and some misguided friends equates to supporting 62 years of prisons for the innocent.
Wait, which victims did I make reference to? The rest of the statement I don't understand. (again, please forgive my thickness).
6. CiyzenH the zionist totalitarian state is the problem so lets hear you talking about them and not telling us how others need to be marginalized since they are not polite and don't get the fact that just because the people ordering the killing of Palestinians and their supporters are jewish does not make all jews responsible.
You know what? I have been talking about the Israeli state. Here, and on other threads, when I felt I had something to contribute the discussion I've said it. And if I've had questions, I have posted them. But when I see someone spouting language that I feel is offensive, or hateful, I am going to say something about. I'm sorry if you think I should just shut up about it, but I don't agree. I would go after someone saying the same sorts of things about any other ethnic group. And I have. I have ended friendships over racism. I won't abide it. And when I feel targeted, and not only does (almost) no one say anything about it, but I am told to shut up about it? How is that supposed to make me feel. Perhaps my feelings don't matter. Perhaps I am being too sensitive. But I can tell you this. The atmosphere here has made me rethink my involvement with this movement.
Kropotkin, from your posts on other threads it seems that, in many ways at least, we view the world in similar ways. I would consider you an ally. If I am really being ridiculous by voicing my concerns about the kind of language that is being used here, and the kinds of views that are being expressed, then I'll stay away from any of the threads that deal with Israel.
1.
Please learn something before you come on to defend the indefensible. Start with the Law of Return. Even wiki has a decent definition. A jewish person who denies that Israel has laws that favour jewish citizens and you want to be taken seriously?
2.
No I never said or implied people of jewish descent have any monopoly on racism. However a jewish person in a thread about the massacre of aid workers complaining about bad language being used by some of the victims makes me want to puke. Murder not intemperate language is what makes my blood boil.
3.
Since you chose to make your jewishness a part of the debate I thought I would quote Israel's best ally's favorite jew. So far you know nothing about jewish law and nothing about a jew that xians worship as god. Fair enough I think you can find some info on that also with a quick google search.
4.
Here is a link to the Israeli cabinet which it is claimed is the largest ever. Please point to the non jewish cabinet ministers since I can't tell and this is something you claim to know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Israel
5.
If you don't understand the term 62 years of prisons for the innocent it explains your lack of empathy for the true victims. Let me explain then. Since 1948 Palestinians have lived in refugee camps and occupied territories. That means that people my age and I am pushing 60 were born into a regime where they have no rights, their children have had no rights and their grandchildren have no rights and soon their great grandchildren will have no rights. Please read something about the brutal nature of the occupation because if you say you don't understand the 62 years quote it tells me you know very little about the plight of the Palestinians. Despite that ignorance you have no problem attacking peoples language. Try attacking the real violence against its neighbours instead of the victims angry response.
6.
You self identify as person of jewish descent and you claim to know nothing about the racist laws of Israel and what 62 years of occupation means but are sure on the makeup of the Israeli cabinet. It is not that you should shut up but merely that you go and educate yourself on more than the membership of the Israeli cabinet so that your posts don't sound exactly like all the other zionist apologists on the internet.
You self identify as person of jewish descent and you claim to know nothing about the racist laws of Israel and what 62 years of occupation means but are sure on the makeup of the Israeli cabinet.
Why should anyone of Jewish descent automatically know the laws of the Zionist state? It's slightly racist to make such an assumption.
If he knows the makeup of the Israeli cabinet it seems to me that he is knowledgeable about Israel and therefore if he wants to talk about the issues he should learn something about the laws instead of relying on DOH as a response.
If he had said; "I am jewish but know nothing about Israeli politics" fine. if you know enough about Israeli politics to know the religious faith of the cabinet ministers IMO it is time he did some research on its laws before he dismisses a debate because of his own ignorance of the subject being discussed. You can't be both an expert; "there are non-jewish cabinet members" and totally ignorant, "Israel has laws that favour jewish people?"
I have tried to be very careful not to attack Citizen personally because from his posts I agree we are allies on most issues.
Murderous actions do not equate to vile speech in my moral universe. And raising the minor issue when people are being murdered is merely an apology for the occupation. I actually hope Citz will think about it for awhile. It is not that he is wrong to oppose this hateful language it is just that he is the wrong person to be condemning it. Condemn the people who you are related too not their victims because when you condemn the weaker party in a violent dispute you sound like you are supporting the aggressor.
kropotkin, some of your comments on Judaism and Jewishness are starting to make me feel uncomfortable. Could you stick to criticism of Israel and those, Israeli or otherwise, who support the Israeli state? I understand that the Israeli communications corps makes this difficult at times, but don't let a poster's "concern" goad you into questionable statements, ok?
Belling a Zionist Cat by Kevin Neish Nov 2009
Yakob shouted at me across the table, jabbing his finger at me. "You're anti-Semitic!" The Fort Street restaurant, full of Mother's Day families, went quiet."Don't be ridiculous, I am not," I replied.
"Oh no, now it's worse," he shouted back. "Now you're an anti-Semite in denial. There's no sense even talking to you!"
I am trying very hard to walk the line but I am not sure what comments I made on either Judaism or jewishness. i have been talking about a government in the middle east that is based on religion so it is really hard not to use the term jewish.
So please clarify which of my comments you think were about either Judaism in general or jewishness in general that were not appropriate. The poster took exception to a piece where the author used intemperate language in a thread about the Israeli IDF murdering peace and aid workers and then denied that Israel has laws that favour jewish people. Is it babble policy to now allow those zionist lies to go unanswered?
I've started a new thread here to continue the discussion between kropotkin, NDPP and myself and any others who wish to join. I think it is a useful discussion, but I see how it might detract from the actual point of this thread. Please join me here.
New Mavi Marmara Video
"In a Democracy Now exclusive we bring you a sneak preview of raw footage from the Mavi Marmara that will be formally released at a press conference at the UN later in the day
50 Ships to Join Second Freedom Flotilla
http://www.imemc.org/article/58901
"Yasser Qashlaq, the head of the Free Palestine Movement, announced Thursday that Freedom Flotilla 2 could include up to 50 ships. Qashlaq said that a ship organized by Journalists without Borders will depart from Lebanon to Gaza within a week..."
Israel Steps Up Repression Against Its Arab Citizens
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/arab-j09.shtml
"Alongside its May 31 assault on a convoy bringing aid to Gaza, Israel has stepped up its repression of domestic political opponents. In recent weeks, the security authorities have detained two prominent figures within the Israeli Arab community accusing them of acting as spies for the Lebanese organisation, Hebollah.
Increasingly, the Israeli political establishment views Israel's Arab minority as a fifth column that poses a political threat to the survival of Israel as a Jewish state.."
The Method In Israel's Madness: Geopolitical Shifts Behind the Israeli Attack
http://socialistworker.org/blog/critical-reading/2010/06/09/geopolitical...
"Why, geopolitically, would Israel declare war on the defacto international community - from Muslim nations to NATO member-countries to global public opinion? Is this merely a case of a 'dysfunctional government', as Bradley Burston wrote in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz? And strategically speaking, is there any method behind the madness? Or is the method actually the madness?
There may be a very simple answer to all these questions: fear. Be afraid, be very afraid.." (june 9, scroll down - Pepe Escobar)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi6c10ntFZk]Video[/url] of apparent execution by IDF soldiers onboard the Mavi Marmara.
This was broadcast on Turkish TV and appears to show 2 IDF commandos kicking someone on the ground, and then one of them pointing his rifle downward and firing off several shots.
The victim is identified as the Turkish-American citizen who was killed in the raid, 19 year old, Furkan Dogan.
Apparently even some IDF navy commanders find this attack wrong. That is a very good sign.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/naval-reserve-patrol-boat-bras...
Is it babble policy to now allow those zionist lies to go unanswered?
Oh fer crissakes. This is what you pulled from my statement? No wonder things blow up so quickly here if this is the kind of attention to detail babblers employ when they read.
These statements blur the line between Israel and Jewishness:
However a jewish person in a thread about the massacre of aid workers complaining about bad language being used by some of the victims makes me want to puke.
What does his Jewishness have to do with anything?
Since you chose to make your jewishness a part of the debate I thought I would quote Israel's best ally's favorite jew.
American Fundamentalist Christianity is Israel's greatest ally, not Judaism's. That's the difference.
You self identify as person of jewish descent and you claim to know nothing about the racist laws of Israel
As al-Q pointed out, why should he know the laws of Israel just because he's Jewish? If he said he knew the make-up of the Israeli cabinet (a claim he later withdrew) that's why he should know the laws of Israel, not because he's Jewish.
It's these kind of distinctions we have to be wary of. I realize that the Zionist ideology does everything it can to blur these lines--that's why we have to remain ever vigilant we resist and renounce such lies.
To be clear, this is not a censure or a warning or anything. I don't doubt your person, your dedication, or your resolve. I'm just pointing out that you should be more careful with the words you choose. This is dangerous territory.
posted already in #79. Good you posted it again as it's important and many probably missed it upstream. Here's another reminder:
A Public Forum on the Gaza freedom Flotilla
Thursday, June 10, 2010 7:00 - 9:00 PM
Steelworkers Hall, 24 Cecil Street
Moved to thread on topic to not distract from the gaza blockade thread.
Perhaps before Turkey sends another flotilla to Gaza, she might consider withdrawing her illegal occupying force from Cyprus? If Turkey wants to condemn another country, perhaps Turkey should officially recognize and apologize for the Armenian Genocide, planned and organized by the Turkish government?
If the people of Gaza truly want peace and autonomy, perhaps they should stop firing missiles at Israeli civilians, stop preaching hatred to their children, and start spending some of the billions they've received from their own Diaspora and allies on hospitals, schools, and low-income housing. Gaza and the West Bank already have plenty of bunkers and fortress-palace houses for the elites.
Gaza always has enough money to buy weapons, but no one attacks them unless they attack first. No one. So, if the Palestinians want peace now, they just have to stop fighting, and start building a peaceful society.
Of course, there would be many losers if Palestinians halted their terrorist ways. If there were to be any semblance of democracy in the West Bank or Gaza, residents might demand an end to the corrupt cartels that levy onerous fees for all sorts of services in the West Bank and Gaza. Residents might demand better schools and hospitals, and public services. They might demand an enquiry into the foreign bank account holdings of their leaders, past and present, and the families and associates of these leaders, and might demand that the billions stolen from the refugee population and its descendants be returned and reinvested in the West Bank and Gaza infrastructures.
But no, it's just soooo complicated and much too hard to demand that any of Israel's attackers even try to live by the same standards being demanded of Israel. Bad behaviour by other countries is tolerated or ignored, while the rabid anti-Israeli crowds demand purity from Israel.
In Canada we have a recent ironic example of some in the LGBT community wanting to use the Gay Pride parade as a venue to hold a pro-Palestinian demonstration and promote boycotting Israel. Ironic because Israel is the only country in the Middle East where the LGBT community has full civil rights and protection under the law.
[url=http://rabble.ca/babble/babble-book-lounge/rabble-book-lounge-boycotts-c...'t we met before, LDW?[/url] Like on some discussion board 3 years ago? Before your filthy little country murdered 1,100 Gazans? Before they murdered humanitarian aid activists?
Lemme see now... what was my answer to you then... Oh yes, here it is:
And look at the poor Palestinians. With half a century and a gazillion dollars, you can’t really expect them to have built a functioning social infrastructure!The only way my people have survived for so long is by learning to live with all other peoples, respecting them, sharing weal and woe with them, sympathizing with and supporting their struggles.
Your comments about the Palestinian people shows quite clearly either your anti-human upbringing, or (more likely) the mess you have made of your own brain and feelings all by yourself.
Either cure yourself of these racist feelings, or take your ravings elsewhere. This is not a toxic waste dump.
