Discussing Antisemitism on Babble

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Thu, 2010-06-10 12:48

Cytizen H

This thread is branching off from this thread.

In that discussion I took issue with a link posted to an article that I felt was offensive. A moderator and one other poster agreed with me, but the person who posted the link continued to use language and terminology that I found offensive. As I comented on this it was brought to my attention that my expression of that opinion was counterproductive and offensive. While I disagree with that, I thought it best to move the discussion to a new thread, as one fellow babbler suggested, so that that thread might return to its original intention.

Thu, 2010-06-10 13:05

Cytizen H

kropotkin1951 wrote:

1.

Please learn something before you come on to defend the indefensible. Start with the Law of Return. Even wiki has a decent definition. A jewish person who denies that Israel has laws that favour jewish citizens and you want to be taken seriously?

Okay. I've been grossly misunderstood. Your statement that was that Israel denies the right of non-Jewish citizens. I don't know about this. (and, i believe, that is an admission of gnorance about Israeli law. No need to attack me for it.) I agree that right of return for Jews is disgusting. It makes me sick. The idea that one group should be allowed to citizenship based on their religion but others, who have legitimate claims to the land, would be denied is one that I find revolting. That, however, is not what got brought up. You said denies the rights of its citizens. As far as I know, non-Jewish people who are citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish ones. That does not, in any way, defend anything else that Israel does. But I think it's important to be clear on things.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

2.

No I never said or implied people of jewish descent have any monopoly on racism. However a jewish person in a thread about the massacre of aid workers complaining about bad language being used by some of the victims makes me want to puke. Murder not intemperate language is what makes my blood boil.

I apologize if I offended you. Sincerely. I see how quibbling about language on a thread about the murder of innoccent people could be offensive. I question your bringing up my ethnicity in this statement, though.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

4.

Here is a link to the Israeli cabinet which it is claimed is the largest ever. Please point to the non jewish cabinet ministers since I can't tell and this is something you claim to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Israel

Okay. Here I fucked up completely. I was thinking of the Knesset, not the cabinet. It was an honest mistake (and I supsect you knew that this is what was happening). I don't see a need for you to attack me on this. You may notice I'm not responding to your stuff about Jesus. That's because that comment was insane and I won't dignify it with a response.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

5.

If you don't understand the term 62 years of prisons for the innocent it explains your lack of empathy for the true victims. Let me explain then. Since 1948 Palestinians have lived in refugee camps and occupied territories. That means that people my age and I am pushing 60 were born into a regime where they have no rights, their children have had no rights and their grandchildren have no rights and soon their great grandchildren will have no rights. Please read something about the brutal nature of the occupation because if you say you don't understand the 62 years quote it tells me you know very little about the plight of the Palestinians. Despite that ignorance you have no problem attacking peoples language. Try attacking the real violence against its neighbours instead of the victims angry response.

6.

You self identify as person of jewish descent and you claim to know nothing about the racist laws of Israel and what 62 years of occupation means but are sure on the makeup of the Israeli cabinet. It is not that you should shut up but merely that you go and educate yourself on more than the membership of the Israeli cabinet so that your posts don't sound exactly like all the other zionist apologists on the internet.

Okay, here I see that you have totally misunderstood me. I understand what you mean by the term 62 years of prisons for the innocent. I don't think you have any grounds to say i have no empathy for the true victims. I have said over and over again that I am against the occupation of Gaza. I have spoken out against the settlements in the West Bank. The comment that I didn't understand was "continue on telling us how the terrible language of the victims and some misguided friends equates to supporting 62 years of prisons for the innocent". What I didn't understand in this was a) which victim's language I was quoting and b) what connection you were making to support for the occupation.

Thu, 2010-06-10 13:06

kropotkin1951

CYtizen since I am one of the people in the thread I wish to clarify why I posted after your posts. It is the positioning of the remarks that is the problem. When people get murdered a very old Israeli apologist line is to point to some statement someone made and claim (often correctly) it is anti-semitic. It is a preferred method of stifling discussion of the brutal occupation that is used over and over again.

As I said before I think we agree on most things but in this case I found the timing of the comments and the attempt to change the emphasis from the IDF to anti-semitic remarks to be just the same old same old. Don't look at the Israeli murders here, here look over there at the anti-semitc language. That was my point.

Thu, 2010-06-10 13:17

N.Beltov

It would be useful for many babblers and newbies, I think, to include in such a discussion the routine Zionist canard of anti-Semitism to silence criticism of the racist Israeli regime. We get plenty of trolls, for example, who disrupt discussions about Israeli atrocities with attempts to sidetrack those discussions into naval gazing cul-de-sacs of one sort or another.

ETA: strange spelling error. That should be "navel" gazing.

Thu, 2010-06-10 13:22

kropotkin1951

There are the laws and then there is the use of the legal system.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Israel_Criticized_For_Evicting_Palestinians...

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jerusalem-arabs-idf-checkpoint...

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/more-and-more-yeshiva-students-...

Thu, 2010-06-10 14:49

Cytizen H

kropotkin1951 wrote:

CYtizen since I am one of the people in the thread I wish to clarify why I posted after your posts. It is the positioning of the remarks that is the problem. When people get murdered a very old Israeli apologist line is to point to some statement someone made and claim (often correctly) it is anti-semitic. It is a preferred method of stifling discussion of the brutal occupation that is used over and over again.

As I said before I think we agree on most things but in this case I found the timing of the comments and the attempt to change the emphasis from the IDF to anti-semitic remarks to be just the same old same old. Don't look at the Israeli murders here, here look over there at the anti-semitc language. That was my point.

Hi Kropotkin, thank you for clarifying. I do see your position. And that is why I started this new thread, because my concerns were, to some extent hijacking the debate and distracting from the discussion on that thread. And believe me, I know the frustration of trying to make a valid point and someone saying "nope, that was antisemitic, you don't get to say that." I have been called a selfhating jew more times than I would like to count and, to use your words, it makes me want to puke.

I do still think it's important to call eachother on oppressive language though. Especially when it would seem better to ignore it. It damages any movement if people within it are openly saying things that are antisemitic (or racist, sexist, anti-islamic, homophobic, classist, ablist, etc.). I think NDPP crossed that line. I do not, in any way, think that criticism of Israel or its policies is inherently antisemitic. But I think it should be called out when it happens, and it is a sign of a healthy movement if it is not the Jewish people who have to do it every time (or the disAbled, underprivileged, women, queer, etc.). And more importantly that those who are affected by the language in question are not then attacked for questioning it. But, again, I see where you are coming from and, N.Beltov, to adress your similar point, I agree that the pervasiveness of certain Zionist tactics certainly are troublesome. Perhaps then we can agree on a phrase or statement at the beginning of any post that might resemble some tactics of Zionists trolls? Perhaps "Now, I'm now crazy Israeli apologist, but..."

Thu, 2010-06-10 14:53

6079_Smith_W

On the subject of discrimination (as opposed to grievances against the state of Israel) I agree that antisemitism (like many other forms of discrimination) is sometimes a baseless charge made to obstruct. I have had "antisemite" used against me a few times, most recently when I pointed out that there is virtually no archaeological evidence that the bondage in Egypt ever happened.

All the more reason to never dismiss a claim outright. If someone's claim is BS all you have to do is calmly say why. Just calling it "bad timing" is tempting, but it is not good enough.

It doesn't help us at all if someone resorts to discrimination or bends the truth to support a good cause, nor does it help to conveniently sidestep calling someone on REAL bad behaviour. If someone calls me on something and there is something to it, he or she is doing me a favour, even if we are on opposing sides of an issue. I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable having my work built on lies and misunderstanding.

This is especially true in cases which are complicated or involve heated emotions, such as the blockade, the storming of the convoy, or Helen Thomas's comments and their consequences.

Yes it is annoying to have to do things properly sometimes. But if we don't do that hard work we risk becoming the very thing we oppose.

Thu, 2010-06-10 14:56

Catchfire

Hi 6079 Smith W! Another Saskatonian! Welcome to babble!

Thu, 2010-06-10 15:15

6079_Smith_W

Thanks. Nice to be here.

Thu, 2010-06-10 15:35

#10

kropotkin1951

Here is something I first posted in the Gaza blockade thread but have since removed it because it is more suited to this discussion. I was responding to a Catchfire post so it is a bit disjointed but I didn't want to edit it if I was only moving it.

Citz I am still trying to believe that you have merely picked up some of the language of the zionist apologist movement. I found little triggers in your posts as the thread progressed that really bothered me. You jumped right to accusing people of being hateful without naming who or stating exactly what the words you found hateful were. You then demanded action or else it will be proof you are not welcome here because you are jewish. You then tell another poster to never talk about Israel and that his views will not be missed. You then demand that a poster explain his anti-Semitism. I'm still trying to be polite here.

Quote:
I should STFU and let people say, "I am jewish listen to my views." The first time this posters religion or ethnicity or what ever else you want to call being jewish arose was when he used it to bolster his points and to claim victimhood while complaining about a piece on jewish victimhood. I found that ironic to say the least. I am really sorry Catchfire but the following sound to me to be a lot like the normal Israeli response to any incident. I did my best to be respectful and not just call him an IDF troll but these quotes are talking points I see all the time.

Quote:

But I am offended by some of the hate that I have seen towards Israeli people and now, undeniably, against anyone of the Jewish faith.

Quote:
I know I am new here, and likely won't be missed, but if no action is taken here I will assume that, as a Jew, I am not welcome here and will take my leave.

Quote:
Now that you have outed yourself as an anti-Semite, the best thing would be for you to refrain from posting on any threads that discuss Israel. For the sake of everyone else. And, to be honest, it would be no great loss.

Quote:
By associating yourself with them you taint them all.

Quote:
I think that NDPP also owes some explanation for his own anti-Semitic comments and his defence of expressing anti-semitic sentiments. (If it makes NDPP feel better, we can substitute racist for anti-semitic).

Thu, 2010-06-10 15:37

#11

Cytizen H

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It doesn't help us at all if someone resorts to discrimination or bends the truth to support a good cause, nor does it help to conveniently sidestep calling someone on REAL bad behaviour. If someone calls me on something and there is something to it, he or she is doing me a favour, even if we are on opposing sides of an issue. I don't know about you, but I don't feel comfortable having my work built on lies and misunderstanding.

Aha! Yes. This is what i was trying to say. You've said it much better than I was able to.

Thu, 2010-06-10 15:54

#12

Cytizen H

Kropotkin>

First of all, politeness is noted. I think we've gotten past the high stakes emotional business and have gotten down to a real discussion. And I think that alot of the comments you have noted from me came from an emotional place. When I said that I was offended, that was true. I've experienced real antisemitism before. I've experienced it in the form of words and in the form behaviour and in the form of physical violence. It has made me sensitive to it and to racism of any kind. Perhaps overly sensitive, but I think that's debatable. In terms of the comments about NDPP tainting the movement and saying that he shouldn't post, 6079 Smith W's quote above explains the sentiment behind those comments. I see that they may have come across as sensationalist.

As for my "threat" of leaving... Again this was an emotional response. i was hurt by what was going on. There was an openly anti-semitic comment made by NDPP. And I was hurt that no one (except for Unionist) seemed to care. I don't think, by any means, that anyone has any responsibility for me and my feelings, and it has been pointed out that a safe space is not something that babble has mandated to provide. I, very simply, didn't feel welcome. I realize I may have misread the tone of things, and based on some insightful input by a few different folk I see it now in a different light. I still have concerns, but I am willing to put them aside.

Thu, 2010-06-10 16:10

#13

kropotkin1951

I have some idea of what you mean and sometimes I find it disconcerting to read things on this space. If you had been here for any length of time you would know one of my pet peeves is using disability as an insult. i get quite tired of people here believing it is their right to use my sons natural condition as an insult to be applied to the nastiest people imaginable. I call people on it often but as often as not I let it go since I usually get a whole host of free speech people telling me I'm PC.

I have said before and I will say it again that as far as I can tell Israel and its belligerent attitude to everyone is the leading cause of anti-semitism. I hope you are starting to realize how hard it is to talk about the Israeli actions without sounding like either an anti-semite or a IDF apologist. If you find something particularly hateful then either respond directly as I do sometimes with the "r" word or alert a moderator. Please don't feel that because the murderous actions of the IDF bring out strong emotions that you are not welcome or that other posters are anti-semitic.

Thu, 2010-06-10 16:59

#14

Cytizen H

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I have said before and I will say it again that as far as I can tell Israel and its belligerent attitude to everyone is the leading cause of anti-semitism. I hope you are starting to realize how hard it is to talk about the Israeli actions without sounding like either an anti-semite or a IDF apologist.

First of all, I can't tell you how pleased I am that this has turned into a useful discussion. I feel like there is a lot that I can learn from you and others. I am realtively young here, it would seem, and certainly acknowledge that there is wisdom and knowledge that I have not acquired yet. And, I absolutely agree that Israel and the Zionists are doing no favour to the Jewish people as a whole. I think that by linking criticism of Israel to anti-semitism the Zionists are creating an environment in which anti-semitism will flourish. And as for the difficulty of talking about Israel, it is something I know all too well. I have spent many years in a position where with some of my friends and colleagues I am dismissed as being an Israeli apologist or a Zionist, and with others I am accused of being a self-hating Jew! How could I be both? Oy!

Thu, 2010-06-10 18:47

#15

milo204

I think the charge that Israel denies it's Arab citizens basic rights is quite well documented. Just read the Jerusalem Post and Ha'aretz every day.

evicting them from their homes, not issuing new permits to build. Designating certain towns "jewish only". Huge disparity in funding and living standards, Which means more in Israel than here because of the separation into arab and jewish towns.

Government officials proposing loyalty oaths for arab citizens, verbally and physically attacking arab Mk's,

Constant talk of deporting arabs to the Occupied Territories by senior government officials

Laws proposed against banning Nakba mourning with fines and jail time

and that's just INSIDE Israel. It's treatment of the non-settlement population in the OT is far far worse.

Out of curiosity, what is in your view a criticism of Israel that crosses the line into anti semetic and racist territory? As a jewish person you'd probably be the best suited to give some insight into that.

Thu, 2010-06-10 18:58

#16

Cytizen H

milo204 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what is in your view a criticism of Israel that crosses the line into anti semetic and racist territory? As a jewish person you'd probably be the best suited to give some insight into that.

In my view, criticism crosses that line when the attrocities comitted by Israel are blamed on the "jewishness" of the people responsible. I think that also demanding that Jews have a responsibility to denounce Israel because they are Jews also crosses a line (I haven't seen that here, but I have elsewhere). Those are the most obvious for me. I think that there is a fine line when discussing groups like Hamas as well. Saying that they are justified in wanting to kill Jews would cross the line for me. I know that for many any support for Hamas would label that person an anti-semite, but I personally think that's a muddier one.

For the record, I find it equally offensive when people use Hamas as an example of the nature of Muslim people. Hamas are crazy assholes. The Zionists and those in charge of Israel are crazy assholes. Stephen Harper is a crazy asshole. All religions have 'em.

Thu, 2010-06-10 19:03

#17

Unionist

Milo204 - "Jewish only" towns in Israel proper (not the territories)? Got any examples?

I think our exposure of Israeli apartheid has to be specific and accurate - otherwise we allow straw men to grow and flourish. There is no doubt that Israeli politicians have proposed - and the Knesset has narrowly defeated - such proposals in the past. But unless I'm very mistaken, they have never been adopted or implemented.

Your overall point, however, is very well taken. It is a profoundly "apartheid" society, both in Israel "proper" and in the occupied territories. And no, just because Cytizen H identifies as Jewish, that doesn't give him any special status or insight to define what is anti-semitic. I'm Jewish, I'm the child of Nazi genocide survivors - but these have to be objective tests. If my opinion doesn't pass muster, I'm not pulling rank because of my origins.

Thu, 2010-06-10 19:19

#18

kropotkin1951

Saying Hamas should defend itself against the occupiers is different than saying that Hamas should kill jews. My understanding is Hamas, like many liberation struggles, has different components and the non military provide what on the ground social services there are. Their military wing thinks it is engaged in a war with an enemy that will kill whole families to assassinate one person. The circle goes around and around. The people of Israel elect murderers to lead their government because they promise security so why can't the Palestinians do the same?

Thu, 2010-06-10 19:45

#19

milo204

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/03/30/32086/bedouin-resist-israeli-plan-...

here's one example, but there i was also referring to the WB settlements, not in israel proper per se, but considered and administered as such by the government and they plan to keep them in any peace agreement as opposed to the "illegal outposts" that are not considered legit by even the israeli government...i guess it's not really "jewish only" towns so much as any arab residents are discouraged and forced out through home demolitions, evictions and not issuing building permits on the basis of being Arab, enforcing a defacto jewish-isaeli only criteria, except in certain places like parts of east jerusalem where arabs are "encouraged" to live...

Thanks Cytizen H, i agree with you on that. My view is pretty much the same. As soon as we start referring to the Israeli's as simply "jews" the argument gets lost. My understanding is that the jewish community has many voices, and are often the most vocal in opposition to Israeli policies.

Thu, 2010-06-10 19:50

#20

kropotkin1951

milo that piece on the Bedouin living conditions brings to mind our rural reserves. The problem I have with avoiding the term jews or jewish is that the Israeli's don't shy away from that language. Why is this jewish Mayor's statement not wrong. If he was the Mayor of an Arab town that lumped all jews into a sentence it would be proof positive of anti-Semitism. Note the clear "us and them" language.

Quote:

The Israeli government is looking to spend $3.6 billion over the next seven years to lure more Jewish residents to the Negev, a triangular desert that makes up more than half of the nation's land.

"The only chance for the development of the Negev is that we bring more Jews," said Shmuel Rifman, the mayor of the local Ramat Negev Regional Council, who supports a trickle-down theory when it comes to the Bedouin.

"When there are more jobs for the Jews, there will be more jobs for them."

As with Israel's clash with the Palestinians, the battle with the Bedouin is over land.

Thu, 2010-06-10 20:08

#21

milo204

yeah that's what initially sparked my interest in the issue was how similar it is with how FN people are treated here.

Thu, 2010-06-10 20:36

#22

milo204

also check out this on the land policies in Israel towards Arabs specifically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Land_Administration

"Not a single new Arab town has been established since Israel was created in 1948. In January 2010, a bill proposed by Ahmed Tibi, an Arab Member of the Knesset, that called for land to be allocated equally to Jews and Arabs was rejected by the Ministerial Committee for Legislation. The bill was designed to provide counterbalance to a bill passed two weeks earlier that states that reception committees of Israeli communities can exercise discretion as to who may reside in their towns. According to Haaretz, "One consequence of that [the latter] bill is that Israeli Arabswould not be able to live in those towns if the reception committees decide so."

Fri, 2010-06-11 12:39

#23

Cytizen H

kropotkin1951 wrote:

My understanding is Hamas, like many liberation struggles, has different components and the non military provide what on the ground social services there are.

I acknowledge that Hamas does very good things within Gaza realting to humanitarian efforts. And they are right to resist Israel. But I don't believe, based on their own rhetoric that they want peace. I believe that they want all Jews gone and/or dead. The Hamas charter calls directly for the killing of Jews.

Quote:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

I don't post this in any way to defend Israel's actions. Because, of course, it doesn't. Nothing could defend what Israel is doing. And if I have been taken in by an obvious fake document then please let me know.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The problem I have with avoiding the term jews or jewish is that the Israeli's don't shy away from that language. Why is this jewish Mayor's statement not wrong. If he was the Mayor of an Arab town that lumped all jews into a sentence it would be proof positive of anti-Semitism.

There is something peculiar in your logic here. That mayor is clearly a racist. His statement is wrong. His being Jewish shouldn't have anything to do with it. Of course for him it does, but, again, that's because he's racsit. And probably a crazy asshole.

Fri, 2010-06-11 13:35

#24

kropotkin1951

It is very peculiar that Israeli officials constantly use the term Jew and jewish to describe their citizens. When someone who opposes Israel uses the same terminology as the Israeli government it becomes proof of anti-Semitism. You dismiss this Mayor as irrelevant because he is a racist and obviously not normal. I would argue he is not an anomaly but pretty middle of the road for Israeli politicians.

The Hamas charter issue is a red herring that no one but apologists for murderers takes seriously. Why is the jewish Mayor an anomaly you can live with but you nit pick with a decades old document. Sure lets cut the zionists slag and hammer the people who oppose occupation because some of their language is intemperate.

You have given the racist oppressor a free pass and complained about the nasty language of the victims. I hope you get it soon.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:02

#25

Cytizen H

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It is very peculiar that Israeli officials constantly use the term Jew and jewish to describe their citizens. When someone who opposes Israel uses the same terminology as the Israeli government it becomes proof of anti-Semitism. You dismiss this Mayor as irrelevant because he is a racist and obviously not normal. I would argue he is not an anomaly but pretty middle of the road for Israeli politicians.

The Hamas charter issue is a red herring that no one but apologists for murderers takes seriously. Why is the jewish Mayor an anomaly you can live with but you nit pick with a decades old document. Sure lets cut the zionists slag and hammer the people who oppose occupation because some of their language is intemperate.

You have given the racist oppressor a free pass and complained about the nasty language of the victims. I hope you get it soon.

Why are you being antagonistic?? What exactly don't I "get"? At no point did I "dismiss" the mayor in question. At no point did I give any racist oppressors a "free pass". At no point did I say that this was an "anamoly I can live with". At no point did I cut the "Zionists slag". Please stop putting words in my mouth. It is unfair. My exact words are still above. Please review them.

And being a victim does not excuse language calling for the death of an entire people. Has Hamas denounced their charter? have they replaced it with one that does not reccomend killing Jews? If they have then I apologize for posting an irellevant document. I have no reason to believe that the charter is something that Hamas does not "take seriously". I am, however, absolutely open to evidence to the contrary.

Jewish people who are racist have no bearing on the Jewish people as a whole, or on Judaism as either a culture, ethnicity or a religion. The same goes for Muslims, Christians, or anyone else. When a racist uses their own religion to back up their racism, then call that individual out for being a supremacist. Just because he uses his Jewishness as a shield does not mean that any other Jewish person is to blame for that.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:17

#26

N.Beltov

kropotkin, you might find it useful to read the following thread ...

Why there are no "Israelis" in the Jewish state.

The key quote, in my view, is the very succinct one from Jonathan Cook

Quote:
Israel excludes a nationality of "Israeli" to ensure that, in fulfillment of its self-definition as a "Jewish state," it is able to assign superior rights of citizenship to the collective "nation" of Jews around the globe than to the body of actual citizens in its territory, which includes many Palestinians. In practice it does this by creating two main classes of citizenship: a Jewish citizenship for "Jewish nationals" and an Arab citizenship for "Arab nationals." Both nationalities were effectively invented by Israel and have no meaning outside Israel.

You're not going to get that information from an Israeli apologist.

Edited to add: I see that babbler Cueball has made the point already. But it never hurts to be very,very clear on something which the apologists make such a huge effort to confuse people on.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:25

#27

Cueball

Equating Jewishness with Israeliness is entirely the fault of the state of Israel which has propagated the myth that it is one in the same as the Jewish people. This is both propaganda facade and also false history. Support of Israel among Jews has always been mixed, but this does not stop the Israeli state or its supporters from selectively using the device of equating Jewishness with Israeliness as a way of cloaking its rampant violations of human rights by attacking critics as anti-semites when they fall into the trap of using the same ontology that Israel and Zionists have widely disseminated to the world.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:37

#28

6079_Smith_W

The fact that Israel has some racist policies and some people within its borders who use the term "jew" as a racist distinction does not justify our doing the same thing, nor does it make it any less racist.

There are plenty of Jewish people inside and outside of Israel opposed to what Israel is doing. How about keeping the focus on the actual perpetrators, not innocent bystanders and allies?

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:39

#29

Cytizen H

N.Beltov wrote:

You're not going to get that information from an Israeli apologist.

I'm sorry, what? Is this directed at me? Am I an Israeli apologist? I wasn't aware of that. having never apologized for anything Israel has done I was not aware that I was an Israeli apologist. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. i will make myself a name tag so that everyone knows that despite my constant criticism of Israel and its apatheid regime that I am an Israeli apologist. I will make sure that when I visit Gaza next winter on a humanitarian mission that everyone knows that, since I spoke out against openly anti-semitic remarks, despite my desire to help in anyway the cause for a free Gaza that I am an Israeli apologist.

And I'm so sorry that I hadn't seen that article before, or brought that information forward. Obviously as someone who is critical of Hamas I must have been witholding that.

Look, I don't claim to know everything about the situation, or have the answers. In fact, I have openly admitted the opposite! I want to learn about these things. I have been exposed to a hell of a lot of Zionist propoganda over the years. I may be clouded on certain things and am asking for help in seeing where I am still misinformed. If that makes me an Israeli apologist by the standards here, then fine.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:45

#30

Cueball

It certainly does not hurt to make these distinctions. Israeli settler instead of Jewish settlers, for example. If only in deference to the many Jews who do not want any part of their dispicable ethnic cleansing campaign.

Exhibited here, in this video where we can watch Arabs being forced to live in cages to avoid being regularly pelted with rocks and insulted, and beaten in the street by Israeli settlers, while IDF soldiers on patrol prevent the Arabs from leaving their houses when they try protect their children from being beaten by Israeli kids as they come home from school.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idplcNmNr4o]Life in Hebron[/url]

But yeah, I semantics are important. What self respecting Jewish person would want to be associated with that? So, Israeli settler is a must out of respect for the many Jews who opposed such bestial activity.

Fri, 2010-06-11 14:47

#31

Cueball

Here: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idplcNmNr4o]Life in Hebron[/url] It's good to be informed.

Fri, 2010-06-11 15:04

#32

Ripple

Apologies for formatting, I'm still getting the hang of this.

Cytizen H, this is how you responded to the bile of LDW in the thread linked to at the beginning of this one:

Quote:
LDW> A piece of advice based on recent experience. On a thread discussing some of the attrocities comitted by Israel, discussing attrocities (real or imagined) committed by other countries or groups is frowned upon as it is a distraction from the discussion at hand. I, personally, think there are valid criticisms to made of Turkey's treatment of the Armenians and Kurds, Hamas' rhetoric, etc.... but this is not the place for them. If you want to talk about them the best thing would be to start a thread specifically about those concerns or points of view. I can't promise that it will go well, but it would be better than posting them here.

This is how you responded to NDPP's link to an offensive article (from the same thread):

Quote:

I find the article posted in No Difference's post (#7) horribly offensive. It is inflammatory, hateful, and bigotted and I am surprised that anyone thought this was something reasonable to post. I understand fully anger towards Israel. It is, of course, fully justified. But I am surprised by the level of hatred I have seen displayed by several posters on Babble. I fully support the fight for Gaza and for the removal of Israeli settlers from occupied Palestine. I fully support holding those accountable who have committed inhuman attrocities against the Gazan people and the Palestinians. I support boycotts, divestments, sactions. But I am offended by some of the hate that I have seen towards Israeli people and now, undeniably, against anyone of the Jewish faith. I really hope that I have completely misunderstood ND's intentions in posting this article.

And then:

Quote:

I think that stifling criticism of Israel on the grounds that it is anti-semitic is ludicrous and irrational. However, I am far more worried by the fact that anti-semites are now using the awareness of that Zionist tactic as a shield for their hate. I don't care if Atzmon is banned. It can be useful to see what our enemies are saying. I think you should be banned. You have openly stated that Atzmon's anti-jewish sentiments are justifed and that you agree with them. This neccessarily taints any commentary you make about Israel. You do a great disservice to those who would stand up on behalf of the Palestinians. By associating yourself with them you taint them all.

I'm new here, too, and I think there's some trying to sort out people's motives and sincerity. Do your responses seem consistent? (I say this knowing that I am not an entirely consistent human being myself.)

Fri, 2010-06-11 15:15

#33

SparkyOne

Question about antisemitisim.

Why does violence against the Jewish get a specific phrase. I'm speaking from complete ignorance here and maybe it's just me being lead around by the media but why do I get the feeling that I'm suposed to feel that racisim against the jewish is ESPECIALLY horrific?

Is it because of the holocaust that people tend to scrinch up when it's not just racisim but racisim against Jews?

Tousands upon thousands of "black" women children and men are dying in Africa. How many African's have been murdered wholesale since WW2?

I don't understand why antiseminite seems like such a boogyman word to me. Am I wrong or does the media seem to push that antiseminitisim is an especially evil form of racisim? I hope this isn't taken out of context it's something I can't figure out and am struggling with.

Fri, 2010-06-11 15:31

#34

N.Beltov

Cytizen H wrote:

N.Beltov wrote:
You're not going to get that information from an Israeli apologist.

I'm sorry, what? Is this directed at me?

No, it was directed at kropotkin who typed a confused-sounding entry.

Nobody here has all the answers, fyi. That's why it's a discussion board.

Carry on.

Fri, 2010-06-11 15:49

#35

6079_Smith_W

@SparkyOne

Good question. I'll bite.

Short answer, IMO... it is ALL evil, fearful, narrow-minded nonsense.

But there there are some situations in which some people think it is permissible to discriminate because they think something someone else did or some completely false myth somehow justifies it.

It's okay to hate Catholics, Evangelicals or Mormons because of prop8, abusive priests, or because religion is a great load of tripe anyway.

It's okay to hate Muslims because of 9-11, sharia, and honour-kilings.

It's okay to hate Natives because of the lie that they are lazy drunken criminals getting a free ride from the rest of us.

It's okay to hate Jews because of Israel's crimes, and the myth that they run all the governments, finances and media in the world.

Racism is racism and it is all bad. Arguing about degrees of injury gets us nowhere.

Hope that makes sense, and sorry for the rant.

Fri, 2010-06-11 15:52

#36

Cytizen H

Ripple wrote:

I'm new here, too, and I think there's some trying to sort out people's motives and sincerity. Do your responses seem consistent? (I say this knowing that I am not an entirely consistent human being myself.)

I have already stated that some of my initial responses were perhaps over emotional. Because of that there is an inconsistecy of tone, for sure. Other than that I think I've remained pretty consistent. If you see obvious inconstencies that I am missing please let me know and I will be more than happy to address them.

Fri, 2010-06-11 16:03

#37

Cytizen H

N.Beltov wrote:

Cytizen H wrote:

I'm sorry, what? Is this directed at me?

No, it was directed at kropotkin who typed a confused-sounding entry.

Nobody here has all the answers, fyi. That's why it's a discussion board.

Carry on.

Grand! Apologies for the unnecessary rant. I do like discussions!

Fri, 2010-06-11 19:34

#38

kropotkin1951

Quote:

But I don't believe, based on their own rhetoric that they want peace. I believe that they want all Jews gone and/or dead.

That mayor is clearly a racist. His statement is wrong. His being Jewish shouldn't have anything to do with it. Of course for him it does, but, again, that's because he's racist. And probably a crazy asshole.

What I read was that this one man is "wrong" and probably a "crazy asshole" therefore not really a spokesperson for the people who elected him while the other side cannot be believed and no matter what Palestinians say about peace the "Charter" proves they will murder every jew if given half a chance. To you the racist elected Israeli is not the norm so it means nothing in the greater context but a 22 year old document is prove positive that the "they" you refer to will murder jews. I hope this is making sense and not seen as attacking you. I think you need to reread you posts like the ones someone else posted above.

Look at the death count of Israeli citizens and Palestinians. Sticks and stones may break Israeli bones but words will never hurt them. Tanks and bulldozers break Palestine bones but our media raises the Hamas Charter at every turn to prove who the evil people are. Look at their Charter it is so evil that you can ignore the children being shot in the street for throwing stones at an occupying army. I believe the IDF is blood thirsty and racist but I only have their record to rely on.

Here is a good example of nice peaceful language from the imperialist overlord who arms the IDF.

Quote:

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the Shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
of United States Marine.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job--
The United States Marines.

And you know that hateful approach even makes it into political campaigns. If it isn't Hamas then it is Iran that is the evil one. Not any of America's brutal allies though, they are all above reproach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

Fri, 2010-06-11 20:36

#39

milo204

on anti-semitism being worse: i think it's just become a propaganda term, like anti-american or similar terms where the people using them try to equate distaste for the authority to mean hatred for all those living under that authority as well. how can you be anti american while holding a view held by a majority of americans? If it's not the official government line!

also, semetic doesn't specifically mean jewish, palestinians are semetic as well, so in reality the state of israel could well be the most anti semetic state in the world.

Fri, 2010-06-11 20:42

#40

E.Tamaran

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Here is a good example of nice peaceful language from the imperialist overlord who arms the IDF.

Quote:

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the Shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
of United States Marine.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job--
The United States Marines.

And you know that hateful approach even makes it into political campaigns. If it isn't Hamas then it is Iran that is the evil one. Not any of America's brutal allies though, they are all above reproach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

The USMC are Warriors and includes thousands of FN Warriors. You don't expect them to have poems about fluffy pillows and teddy bears do you?

Fri, 2010-06-11 20:58

#41

Stargazer

Just because there are some FNs in the USMC certainly does NOT make it a good thing. Why stand with the oppressor?

Fri, 2010-06-11 23:25

#42

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

I've read a bit of this, and just want to suggest to Citizen H that you can't have it both ways. You say you can't blame the Jewishness of Israelis for their behavior because to do so would be anti-semitic, but Hamas is anti-semetic to want to resist their occupers and their oppressors because now the Jewishness of the Israelis is a factor. I suggest you were right the first time.

In fact, I worry your concern is misplaced. Did you watch Children of Gaza? The video is linked in different threads. But here's the thing ... Because Zionists conflate Israel (The Jewish State) and the actions of Israel with Jewishness, the children of Gaza blame Jews for the horrors they've witnessed and the deprivations they endure. The film is heart wrenching and disturbing. But this is by design. How can Palestinian Arabs and Jews ever live in peace when hatred is so entrenched and at such an early age? So in fact, by your own definition, Zionism exploits and perpetuates anti-semitism and to tremendous effect.

Fri, 2010-06-11 23:56

#43

Lard Tunderin Jeezus Lard Tunderin Jeezus's picture

To address the title of this thread, I don't believe I have witnessed much that could be accurately described as anti-semitism on Babble. A few ill-chosen links have shown up, admittedly, but I don't think any of our posters were echoing the sentiments found therein. They invariably used these sources to provide specific facts to support their arguments against Israeli imperialism - but one must grant that they may have tainted their arguments by doing so.

Rather than anti-semitism, what does occasionally show up here is an intolerance for religion in general; particularly for religion as a basis for political acts. That the so-called "Christian" hard-right supports Israeli war crimes is a flashpoint in many of these discussions.

Sat, 2010-06-12 02:01

#44

NDPP

Listen to the Heroes of Israel: the moral courage of Israeli Dissidents

http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2010/03/pilger-israel...

"Our children,' said Nurit, at a rally last December to mark the first anniversary of the Israeli assault on Gaza, 'have learned that all the disgusting qualities which anti-Semites attribute to Jews are actually manifested among our leaders: deceit, greed and the murder of children. What values of beauty and goodness can we squeeze into such a sophisticated apparatus of brainwashing and reality distortion?"

Sat, 2010-06-12 02:23

#45

Cytizen H

Okee Dokee, here we go...

kropotkin1951 wrote:

To you the racist elected Israeli is not the norm so it means nothing in the greater context but a 22 year old document is prove positive that the "they" you refer to will murder jews. I hope this is making sense and not seen as attacking you.

Not attacking me, but certainly misunderstanding me. Again, let me repeat, I don't think that "the elected Israeli... means nothing". I never said that, or even implied it. And when I said "they" I never meant to imply the Palestinian people. I meant Hamas.

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Look at their Charter it is so evil that you can ignore the children being shot in the street for throwing stones at an occupying army.

I do see how pointing out the hateful language of Hamas is used as tactic (which I find despicable) of excusing the way Israel oppresses and murders Gazans. I think that if you really look at what I've been saying that this is not even remotely what I'm doing. At this point I think I'm just being baited and its getting tiring.

Next...

Frustrated Mess wrote:

You say you can't blame the Jewishness of Israelis for their behavior because to do so would be anti-semitic, but Hamas is anti-semetic to want to resist their occupers and their oppressors because now the Jewishness of the Israelis is a factor.

I don't think there is anything antisemitic in Hamas wanting to resist their oppressors. I think they are absolutely, 100% justified in resisting their oppressors. I think there is something antisemitic in them wanting to kill jews.

Frustrated Mess wrote:

So in fact, by your own definition, Zionism exploits and perpetuates anti-semitism and to tremendous effect.

I absolutely agree that right wing Zionism exploits and perpetuates anti-semitism to tremendous effect. And I fight it when I see it. And I haven't seen that film, but I will certainly check it out. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Next...

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

I don't believe I have witnessed much that could be accurately described as anti-semitism on Babble. A few ill-chosen links have shown up, admittedly, but I don't think any of our posters were echoing the sentiments found therein.

Here I think I owe an apology. I made comments about "hateful language" on babble. I was refering there to things that, if I wasn't willing to call it out when I saw it, I shouldn't have said anything about. But I stand by what I initially said about NDPP. He posted an article that I believe is antisemitic. Several people here agreed with me, including a moderator and a longstanding babbler. NDPP,s response to my pointing out the offensiveness was to say that it was not a problem because the writer "came by his feelings honestly". When I pressed further, rather that even denying or clarifying the antisemitic comments, NDPP countered by suggesting that antisemitism doesn't exist. If I am wrong here, and as I said way back at the very beginning, please show me that NDPP meant something else, and I will retract my accusation of antisemitism.

And as for the term anti-semitism, I'm sorry but suggesting that anyone here was trying to say that it is worse than other forms of hate is simply ridiculous. It is unfounded and absurd. The term itself is, perhaps, problematic. It should, technically also refer to other "semitic" people (in which case, you're right, Israel is one of the most antisemitic nation in the world, alongside the crusading Christians and Nazi Germany. I am open to using other terminology if someone has a better suggestion.

I think that's all I got at 2:00 AM.

Sat, 2010-06-12 02:28

#46

Cytizen H

Okay, perhaps I have a bit more...

NDPP, rather than just post things I would like to hear what relevance you think that quote and/or article has to the conversation here. Or do you have any commentary? Do you have a point with this?

Sat, 2010-06-12 04:22

#47

NDPP

you have my quote - the words are simple and not at all difficult to understand I think and the writer is a better one than I - especially at his hour . However for me the point powerfully made is a universal one and the last question of the last sentence especially points to a direction and a practice - quite a beautiful, effective one -for the ultmate elimination of all such genuinely hateful ways of being whether that is Zionism, anti-semitism, settler colonialism, xenophobia, capitalism, white supremacy, militarism,corporate slavery, avoidance and denial..etc etc. It's 4:00 AM and that's all I got too.

Sat, 2010-06-12 10:26

#48

Cytizen H

NDPP>

I agree. That is a beautiful sentiment.
My back got up for a few reasons. First and foremost because this thread began because of my reaction to comments you made, and this is your first time posting here. In this discussion, I think it is important that we make ourselves known. It is easy enough to misinterpret each other, but it is even easier to misinterpret what someone's relationship is to an article or a quote they are posting, particularly if they give no context or personal commentary.
The comment in particular in the article that caught my attention was

Quote:

"Our children [...] have learned that all the disgusting qualities which anti-Semites attribute to Jews are actually manifested among our leaders."

Now, I read this and think ah, good, this person agrees with me that the leaders of Israel are terrible people.
I hope you see how, given your earlier comments, I might be suspicious of your meaning in posting this. But now I see that this is turning me into a crazy person becaue the article you posted is actually quite a powerful one and I enjoyed reading it!! I think though, that we can all agree that the Israeli leadership is despicable. That has never been in question. And it needs no proving here. That's not the nature of this discussion.
Do you take something different from the above quote? (he asked, against his better judgement)

Sat, 2010-06-12 11:36

#49

NDPP

no that's about it. Again my intention was to proffer the piece not only because it touches upon anti-semitism, but more importantly because of that final question and challenge as a way through all the isms that must be overcome.

Sat, 2010-06-12 14:42

#50

remind

Cytizen H wrote:
I don't think there is anything antisemitic in Hamas wanting to resist their oppressors. I think they are absolutely, 100% justified in resisting their oppressors. I think there is something antisemitic in them wanting to kill jews.

Huh?

Do you not realize the disconnect contained within this statement of yours?

Do you mean they can resist their occupiers but cannot kill them, as then it would anti-semitism?

So...Israel can murder Palestinians, hell any "arab" person with impunity, and it is not anti-semitism, but if Hamas kills a Israeli, in their fight against their oppressors, the Israelis, then it is anti-semitism?

Why are you holding 2 differing standards of viewing actions?

Are Israeli lives worth more?

Sat, 2010-06-12 14:44

#51

Unionist

Remind, please read his post again. He said "kill Jews", not Israelis.

The longer this thread goes, the more likely it is to become a self-fulfilling proposition.

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